[LEAKED] Private Bitcoin Foundation Discussions On Blacklisting, more (ZIP dump)

[haightst]

man i've read only one percent of this and wtf!!!    ~no comment!

[leopard2]

It can do much more than DNS, it is great, it's sad that no one exploit its, but it's completely unrelated to the discussion and not a solution to any of the issues here.

STOP PUMPING ALTCOINS. They solve nothing here.

It could very well solve the problems and it is related to it.
By Namecoin they are no blacklists and they are also not intended to be created.
If those who don't want to be regulated and blacklisted change to Namecoin(the second creation of Satoshi Nakamoto) then Bitcoin doesn't need to fork.
Which solution would you prefer if you would decide ?

I agree, NMC is, by design, blacklist proof. It is designed to circumvent "dns blacklisting" and NMC can transport the same dollar value like BTC or anything else.  

And yes, BTC competitors (that is what altcoins are) can solve the problem. Like it was said before it will be difficult to fork a "Fascho-BTC" blockchain but it is childs play to migrate dollar value from BTC to XYZ. So anytime a coins "foundation" is coerced by the dark forces to accept control mechanisms, dollar value and hash power can just switch to something else...

And mind you, if a coins code is controlled from a country outside the US, like China or Russia, the USG will not have an easy time coercing those into adopting such mechanisms.

[virtualmaster]

Erm... i wonder where you life since the control of people is a disease spreading worldwide. And yes they use all kind of excuses to forward their plans. Be it terrorism or money laundering. They will spread fear to get the plans through they need to earn money.

Yes.
So you are going to surrender?
Well - do what you please...

I am going to stand up, because I am not a slave, I have my rights as a human being and I am going to use them to promote my human interests.
And Bitcoin is today my most powerful weapon, which I will not give up even after my dead body.

These days I live in Holland, but I was born and raised in Poland, though today I consider myself a citizen of the world.
Unfortunately as it turns out, the World does not issue passports, and without a passport a human being is nobody.
So I am doomed to have a nationality, even though I think nationalism is stupid and inhumane

Yes. Definitely you have right.
I like the idea of World Citizenship and World Passport.
What about improving the idea ?
Why would we need a physical passport ? It has the disadvantage that you can loose it or it can be stolen.
It could be a Namecoin Passport based on Namecoin ID(with Bitcoin and Bitmessage) where you upload you data entries in encrypted form. By crossing the border you just say your Namecoin Passport ID and your password and you can be checked with it.

Passport number                        N5xH8xfy0
Nationality                                 Namecoinia
Name                                         Refugee Robert
Date of birth(YYMMDD)         1988.03.11
Place of birth                             Eritrea
Expiration date of passport        2014.02.12
Namecoin ID                              refugeerobert7
Bitmessage address                    BM-BcbRqcFFSQUUmXFKsPJgVQPSiFA3Xash
Bitcoin address(for border fee) 1Hq4JYkMvptxd28T4zQdieggwQpoc2T6rU

[Slingshot]

Steering way off topic for just a second:

 Why does any free citizen need or require a Passport?

 Because we are not truly free.



Caveat emptor

[Bicknellski]

 I'm also an atheist and an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church, so there you go.)

Heehehe.

[coinrevo]

parts of this leak is public now? I was very surprised when I learned about this private forum, and read the attitude of the people there. its absolutely outrageous, that it takes leaks to get information on such important positions, and makes me really reconsider the current state of bitcoin.

[trilightzone.org]

Changing the core principles of bitcoin makes it worthless. Then people might as well keep using the traditional ways to make payments. Anyway, we would dump it in a heartbeat if bitcoin core principles were changed and another coin would take its place quickly.

[coinrevo]

my respect for these developers dropped by a lot given these actions + taking advisory positions in wallstreet /silicon valley companies - WTF is going on? all this work just to get the same kind of corruption we have. to me, those developers engaged in this kind of activity are diluting their share of the ideal. and the crap one reads in the foundation forum is outrageous. who are they that they think they own this process?

I find it somewhat doubtful that the hashing power would move away from the most "successful" currency. there is no viable competitor. would it be just a freeze? what would happen then?

interestingly all this discussion is based on the idea that the US should own the world. its just assumed that the US makes the laws for the world.

[LiteCoinGuy]

Again, you understand nothing. It's about tracking what's happening in a blockchain, and altcoins do not prevent you at all from doing that, as their blockchains are all public and work in the exact same way. Moreover, they have much less tools available to circumvent that. There is nothing more to add.

Zerocoin here we come.

[MikeH]

It's not decisions being forced by the Foundation and I'm tired of seeing it put across like that. It's a discussion and it's a really important one. Here is why:

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

We find out his Bitcoin address. It contains 10,000 Bitcoins and we can see transactions entering it.

We then see outgoings, some of which are traced to weapons used to kill 1000s of Americans, think a major bomb or subway incident.

Only on page 1 and already see a flaw here - you are assuming Bin Laden was guilty of 9/11 etc yet many of us know that is a lie so this is actually another argument against any form of blacklisting.

[tacotime]

Between stealth addressing and coinjoin, we're already ahead of them.

[Rampion]

Between stealth addressing and coinjoin, we're already ahead of them.

Stealth addresses are indeed one of the most exciting developments - great job by Amir.

Furthermore, I strongly believe that coinjoin should be implemented by default on Bitcoin-QT. Isn't there any discussion in that direction?

[piotr_n]

You are overestimating the privacy that the two features add to your coins.

Stealth addresses - they are only useful for those who'd like to receive funds from people they don't know. If they (like me) did know the people who send them the money, they could have just as well achieve the same level of "privacy" by giving a different payment address to each if the payers. So I don't know about you, but stealth addresses are not going to help me at all to improve my privacy.

And the conjoin - as I had said once: no matter what, always claim that your transaction was a coinjoin transaction, since they are completely indistinguishable from regular transactions, and so: we have all been using coinjoin already, without even knowing it... bear it in mind! Claiming that not all of the inputs and outputs were yours in a certain tx - this is the only thing that matters in the coinjon technology.

I think the real bitcoin privacy can only come from an off-chain mixers. Something like Bitcoin Fog does... But they charge 2% and we cannot be sure whether they actually destroy the logs. But this is definitely a proper way to address bitcoin privacy issues, while stealth addresses or conjoin transactions are not an actual privacy improvements - at least not according to my definition of bitcoin's privacy...

[bluemeanie1]

Again, you understand nothing. It's about tracking what's happening in a blockchain, and altcoins do not prevent you at all from doing that, as their blockchains are all public and work in the exact same way. Moreover, they have much less tools available to circumvent that. There is nothing more to add.

Zerocoin here we come.

The technology im working on has an enhanced privacy model.

[bluemeanie1]

It's not decisions being forced by the Foundation and I'm tired of seeing it put across like that. It's a discussion and it's a really important one. Here is why:

Imagine Bin Laden is still around.

We find out his Bitcoin address. It contains 10,000 Bitcoins and we can see transactions entering it.

We then see outgoings, some of which are traced to weapons used to kill 1000s of Americans, think a major bomb or subway incident.

Only on page 1 and already see a flaw here - you are assuming Bin Laden was guilty of 9/11 etc yet many of us know that is a lie so this is actually another argument against any form of blacklisting.

If you havent figured out yet that the spooks are all over this board and this space, youre not paying attention.  If google is involved be afraid.

[bluemeanie1]

You are overestimating the privacy that the two features add to your coins.

Stealth addresses - they are only useful for those who'd like to receive funds from people they don't know. If they (like me) did know the people who send them the money, they could have just as well achieve the same level of "privacy" by giving a different payment address to each if the payers. So I don't know about you, but stealth addresses are not going to help me at all to improve my privacy.

And the conjoin - as I had said once: no matter what, always claim that your transaction was a coinjoin transaction, since they are completely indistinguishable from regular transactions, and so: we have all been using coinjoin already, without even knowing it... bear it in mind! Claiming that not all of the inputs and outputs were yours in a certain tx - this is the only thing that matters in the coinjon technology.

I think the real bitcoin privacy can only come from an off-chain mixers. Something like Bitcoin Fog does... But they charge 2% and we cannot be sure whether they actually destroy the logs. But this is definitely a proper way to address bitcoin privacy issues, while stealth addresses or conjoin transactions are not an actual privacy improvements - at least not according to my definition of bitcoin's privacy...

Im not even sure mixing even offers that much privacy.  In most parts of the civilized world they track all your internet traffic, so given that they can track the ip origin of any tx, thus revealing the real world identity(at least to a degree).  By using data mining you can cluster the data with more complete sets, like from web wallets to hone in on virtually any activity on the block chain.  St. Snowden revealed recently that they are tracking you pc activity even when its not connected to the internet.  Mixing certainly makes it more dificult but not impossible to indentify bitcoin use.

[MikeH]

parts of this leak is public now? I was very surprised when I learned about this private forum, and read the attitude of the people there. its absolutely outrageous, that it takes leaks to get information on such important positions, and makes me really reconsider the current state of bitcoin.

I was about to post about that, why aren't they releasing transcripts of all formal discussions?  there should be no such thing as a leak in regards to bitcoin's development.

[piotr_n]

Im not even sure mixing even offers that much privacy.  In most parts of the civilized world they track all your internet traffic, so given that they can track the ip origin of any tx, thus revealing the real world identity(at least to a degree).  By using data mining you can cluster the data with more complete sets, like from web wallets to hone in on virtually any activity on the block chain.  St. Snowden revealed recently that they are tracking you pc activity even when its not connected to the internet.  Mixing certainly makes it more dificult but not impossible to indentify bitcoin use.

Well, I surely appreciate your skepticism and awareness of the environment that bitcoin needs to live in.
That is exactly the approach that people who pretend to develop a privacy for Bitcoin need.

But you must admit that mixing services like "Bitcoin Fog" are exactly like coinjoin - except that they are definitely so much better than coinjoin.
Though, if you can propose an even better idea, a one which addresses the issues that you have just complained about - man, then you will be our hero!
But first show us how it works - because only then we have something to talk about... The other way around (just talk - show nothing) is only a waste of our time.

[bluemeanie1]

Im not even sure mixing even offers that much privacy.  In most parts of the civilized world they track all your internet traffic, so given that they can track the ip origin of any tx, thus revealing the real world identity(at least to a degree).  By using data mining you can cluster the data with more complete sets, like from web wallets to hone in on virtually any activity on the block chain.  St. Snowden revealed recently that they are tracking you pc activity even when its not connected to the internet.  Mixing certainly makes it more dificult but not impossible to indentify bitcoin use.

Well, I surely appreciate your skepticism and awareness of the environment that bitcoin needs to live in.
That is exactly the approach that people who pretend to develop a privacy for Bitcoin need.

But you must admit that mixing services like "Bitcoin Fog" are exactly like coinjoin - except that they are definitely so much better than coinjoin.
Though, if you can propose an even better idea, a one which addresses the issues that you have just complained about - man, then you will be our hero!
But first show us how it works - because only then we have something to talk about... The other way around (just talk - show nothing) is only a waste of our time.

Not looking to be a hero, but keep in mind the real software is the ideas behind it.  Code is just an expression of those ideas.  My general goal is to provide flexible tools for private equity creation.  Digital currencies fall under this.  Confidence chains is a generalized solution to this problem.  Im even hestinant to say anything because the moment I do the peanut gallery badtardizies whatever terminology I use.  Ive been in the digital currency world long enough to know what kind of forces your dealing with and they shouldnt be underestimated.

Im aware of your work btw, I think alternative bitcoin clients are certainly important.  Part of what the big firms are doing is monopolizing knowledge of the open source software.

[piotr_n]

Im not even sure mixing even offers that much privacy.  In most parts of the civilized world they track all your internet traffic, so given that they can track the ip origin of any tx, thus revealing the real world identity(at least to a degree).  By using data mining you can cluster the data with more complete sets, like from web wallets to hone in on virtually any activity on the block chain.  St. Snowden revealed recently that they are tracking you pc activity even when its not connected to the internet.  Mixing certainly makes it more dificult but not impossible to indentify bitcoin use.

Well, I surely appreciate your skepticism and awareness of the environment that bitcoin needs to live in.
That is exactly the approach that people who pretend to develop a privacy for Bitcoin need.

But you must admit that mixing services like "Bitcoin Fog" are exactly like coinjoin - except that they are definitely so much better than coinjoin.
Though, if you can propose an even better idea, a one which addresses the issues that you have just complained about - man, then you will be our hero!
But first show us how it works - because only then we have something to talk about... The other way around (just talk - show nothing) is only a waste of our time.

Not looking to be a hero, but keep in mind the real software is the ideas behind it.  Code is just an expression of those ideas.  My general goal is to provide flexible tools for private equity creation.  Digital currencies fall under this.  Confidence chains is a generalized solution to this problem.  Im even hestinant to say anything because the moment I do the peanut gallery badtardizies whatever terminology I use.  Ive been in the digital currency world long enough to know what kind of forces your dealing with and they shouldnt be underestimated.

Im aware of your work btw, I think alternative bitcoin clients are certainly important.  Part of what the big firms are doing is monopolizing knowledge of the open source software.

No - don't get me wrong.
I'm saying: what do you have to offer that would provide a better anonymity for my coins that the mentioned Bitcoin Fog which charges 2% of my money?
I haven't seen anything better so far, but even as for this service I cannot be sure that it isn't run by NSA itself, can you?
So I am looking for something better, but I see nothing better on the horizon...

All these "stealth addresses" or "coinjoin" - for me it's just some PR bullshit that does not improve my privacy at all. Does it improve yours, BTW? I doubt it.
And no offence for the people who came out with these ideas (I believe they wanted well), but that is not a real solution for a bitcoin privacy, so people should not get so delighted about it.