[LEAKED] Private Bitcoin Foundation Discussions On Blacklisting, more (ZIP dump)

[piotr_n]

didn't we already establish that Bitcoin is not p2p?

OK - I get you: Bitcoin is not P2P and its value does not come from hashing, but rather from fooling people..

Any other original thoughts you have to share?

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[bloods-n-cryptos]

The bottom line is,

if any one of you think that any system that is value in BILLIONS of USD is ever going to remain "uncontrolled" you are seriously delusional.

Bitcoin = Money

Money = Power

If not the Bitcoin Foundation, then another.

There will always be a desire and battle to control it.


~BCX~

This is true.

That said, decentralizing development by moving it away from centralized developers to make it objectively community-driven could be a step in the right direction.
https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/3449-decentralizing-development-through-vanity-voting/

[bluemeanie1]

didn't we already establish that Bitcoin is not p2p?

OK - I get you: Bitcoin is not P2P and its value does not come from hashing, but rather from fooling people..

Any other original thoughts you have to share?

not really sure what's happened since yesterday, but suddenly seems you're in favor of blacklists?

did you get a PM invite to become a second-tier Bitcoin superfriend?  Suddenly Blacklists are 'for our own protection'? 

the technology could go one of two ways:

1) they manage to introduce sufficient controls, then they keep the price afloat, people continue to use thinking it's 'cool' or whatever meanwhile they actually have less privacy than Dwolla, but believe otherwise.

2) they dont put in the controls due to community resistance, and subsequently the price of Bitcoin plummets and all the 'experts' on here pretend that they predicted this all along.

[piotr_n]

Sorry mam, but the more I read you, the clearer it is to me that you are talking only bullshit.

In fact, I do support all kind of blacklists.
One example would be a list containing all the people who I do not take seriously.
And you've just got subscribed to this one.

[bluemeanie1]

Sorry mam, but the more I read you, the clearer it is to me that you are talking only bullshit.

In fact, I do support all kind of blacklists.
One example would be a list containing all the people who I do not take seriously.
And you've just got subscribed to this one.

seems you NEVER address my points.

[piotr_n]

Right - I don't address you points. that's probably true.
But how do you expect people to address bullshit like "bitcoin is not p2p" or "you cannot create value by computing hashes"?

Your points are in some abstract fantasy land, where my imagination cannot even reach them.
I'm just a human being - unable to address things that I cannot perceive.

[PsySec]

thanks for the leak op!

[tvbcof]

Right - I don't address you points. that's probably true.
But how do you expect people to address bullshit like "bitcoin is not p2p" or "you cannot create value by computing hashes"?

Your points are in some abstract fantasy land, where my imagination cannot even reach them.
I'm just a human being - unable to address things that I cannot perceive.

Seems to me that:

 - Bitcoin is less and less 'p2p', and is threatening to become vastly less so in the future.

 - 'Computing hashes' is just a means of accomplishing proof-of-work and facilitating the necessary book-keeping work in the system.  It is no more special than that and is distinctly NOT what creates value in the Bitcoin system.  Nor is it the only way to achieve the goals in a general sense.

I don't consider either of these two of they guy's points to be 'bullshit'.  Try again.

[piotr_n]

Gents, I really don't have time for this bullshit.
If you have any question to me, try to express it in a way that I would understand.
Otherwise just give me a break, because I am not here to prove anything to you.
I said what I had to say and that's it - you don't like it, not my problem.

[tolega]

Came here to see honest enlightening arguments...

Leaving disappointed.

[NewLiberty]

What is the Bitcoin foundation?

The more I read about the entities that are getting involved with Bitcoin the muddier my picture of Bitcoin gets.

You say Bitcoin is decentralized? It is not and will never be as long as there's someone pulling the strings behind the scenes.
Whether it's an entity within the network (a large pool), a shady wall-street investor or the big brother foundation...

Where is the long term plan posted? Where is the list of planned features? Where do I send my feature suggestions? Where is the open discussion?
Where are the miners in all of this? Are we just dumb, cheap labor?

So long as the strings are held by enough people, that is decentralization.  Where they get tied into ropes are the problems.  If you have a private key and a mining rig, you have an untangled string.

Most your questions have been adequately and repeatedly answered.  If you can read code, even better than google, hop on github.  Feature suggestion - pull request.  Most people aren't in the group that can be useful there.  Consequently the "Very Open Discussion".... most of which is more open than is useful, as incredible amounts of time are used by people-that-know-stuff explaining to people-that-don't-know-how-to-find-answers. 

There is some utility to this VOD process at this stage of the project (which is still beta) because the "issue identifiers" (complainers) are still giving enough useful input to the "issue resolvers" (people that make things) to be of some valuable guidance.
And there are plenty of us around the edges that can talk to both.  When you are at the point of identifying a novel issue that hasn't been addressed, you get tremendous acclaim and hatred.

The automatic and persistent KYC proposals are in that category.  There is a problem, some solutions to that problem may make it worse, and so it will be hotly debated.

[coinrevo]

Some form of regulation and control is coming, like it or not.
~BCX~

Regulation by whom? bitcoin can move wherever it wants. this only makes sense if you're completely US centric and blind to the impact cryptocurrencies can have on the world.

I've read through the posts at TBF, and what people say there is completely opposed to bitcoin the ideal. we need more developers/enthusiasts outside of the US.

[tolega]

If US and The Bitcoin Foundation create come kind of regulations then me plus every other non-American will jump ship.

[tvbcof]

OK above two posters, lemme ask you this:

Say you live happily in Bumfuckistan.  I can pay you in two different things:

 - BTC which can be used to buy trinkets from Amazon. (no taint.)

 - BTC which cannot be used to buy trinkets from Amazon.  (tainted.)

Remember that if you accept the BTC, you will also be asking the same question of whoever you are trying to pay the BTC to so it's not a matter of whether you yourself intend to buy trinkets from Amazon or not.

Unless you are full of shit, your answer will be that you would prefer the non-tainted coins.

Now we have a situation where tainted coins are not only useless for buying trinkets from Amazon, but are also devalued by everyone else no matter where they are or what their plans are.  This further damages BTC which are tainted.  It is a bit of a vicious cycle.  The tainted BTC will have some real-world value, but it will be less than the non-tainted BTC.  Perhaps much less.

Tainting BTC in this manner does not require the participation of the Bitcoin developers.  Mostly just that they do nothing significant to protect against taint.  (This is one of the most significant defects of Bitcoin's architecture in my opinion.)  As it happens, it seems that for whatever reason the Bitcoin Foundation is more likely to help tainting authorities than to hinder them.

Effective tainting also requires that at least one semi-major player honors the output of a tainting authority to get the ball rolling, but this is trivial when a US or International corporation gets involved.  Just threaten to put the CEO in jail which seems to be exactly what happened with Yahoo! and why they joined PRISM and handed bulk customer data over to the NSA.

[Interized]

Micon I demand more hilarious videos during the down time.

Just so we know the FEDS didn't capture you.

Nice piece brah.

[justusranvier]

Tainting BTC in this manner does not require the participation of the Bitcoin developers.  Mostly just that they do nothing significant to protect against taint.

So many people fail to acknowledge inaction as a viable attack route in their threat models.

[whtchocla7e]

Who makes the decision on what is a tainted coin??

[tvbcof]

Who makes the decision on what is a tainted coin??

Anyone the U.S. government chooses.  My guess is that it will be these guys:

  http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/

[whtchocla7e]

Who makes the decision on what is a tainted coin??

Anyone the U.S. government chooses.  My guess is that it will be these guys:

  http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/

What if users don't accept this method of coin validation?
What about international users?

[tvbcof]

Who makes the decision on what is a tainted coin??

Anyone the U.S. government chooses.  My guess is that it will be these guys:

  http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/

What if users don't accept this method of coin validation?
What about international users?

See a few posts above:

  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=334520.msg4691189#msg4691189