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Author Topic: Freedom and Responsibility - or: why you FAILED if you lost money in MBC crash  (Read 8498 times)
joepie91
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August 02, 2011, 05:28:54 AM
 #1

Before I start, this topic is not intended as trolling. I am entirely serious, and I hope I can wake up some people and make them realize what they are doing.

Bitcoin is about freedom. Freedom to do with your funds what you want. To store them in a way you want, in a way you deem them secure, without having to rely on a third party.

With freedom comes responsibility. Responsibility to take care of the security of your own funds, or to pick a provider you trust and have them take care of it.

If the MyBitcoin crash was a responsibility test, and you lost any considerable amount of money in there, YOU FAILED THE TEST.

Please explain to me how you had the idea that it was a good idea to store considerable funds in a service that has a proven poor track record - remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place? Remember how noone actually appears to really be running the site, and how it is rather 'faceless'? Why would you store any considerable amount of money there? Why did you not store (the majority of) it in a properly secured wallet.dat file on a local machine?

Even if this was not intended as a test, it was a very good one, and you definitely failed it if you indeed lost serious funds.

Just something to think about.

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August 02, 2011, 05:41:34 AM
 #2

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
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August 02, 2011, 05:46:29 AM
 #3

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


+1
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August 02, 2011, 05:49:15 AM
 #4

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


+1
agree +1
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August 02, 2011, 05:50:18 AM
 #5

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


Yeah.

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August 02, 2011, 05:50:34 AM
 #6

+1 for joespie91 AND +1 for John Smith.  I feel that they both make some good points.

I think there are a whole lot of possible tests that each one of us would fail and there is a realistic possibility of any number of them coming to pass.

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August 02, 2011, 06:03:22 AM
 #7

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.

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            ,╓p@@███████@╗╖,           
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August 02, 2011, 06:07:00 AM
 #8

They did earn some amount of trust for existing so long, but it would have been crazy for anyone to store more than 50 BTC there. Why would you trust so much money to some anonymous service with a bad reputation?

There is a strong demand for a reputable Bitcoin bank. If I wasn't busy with other projects, I would definitely gather investments and start one. There's a lot of money to be made.

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joepie91
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August 02, 2011, 06:11:15 AM
 #9

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

Not at all. I am being critical. I have told many people over the time to not rely on ewallets, especially not on MyBitcoin after a load of accounts got cleared out, and pretty much everyone had the same response: "it won't be that bad". I am not talking to the people who got their funds stolen in the first place (they could not possible have known that something like that could happen), I am talking to those who *despite* that STILL stored a considerable amount of funds with MyBitcoin after it has been PROVEN to be unsafe.

If a situation would occur where I could have known that something would go wrong, and I ignored that situation and got burnt - you and everyone else has all the right to tell me that. Sometimes things go wrong, but if you *know* that something is going on, or that something does not have proper security measures, and you are still blindly trusting it, you are making a massive mistake. People just shake it off and say "it won't happen again" or "it can't get that bad", completely ignore all warning signs, and go on with their business. I hope that this kind of message will actually make people think about it and realize what they are doing, and I hope that in the process it saves a few 'victims'.

And yes, I am being extremely offensive in my way of typing at times, but only if I have a good reason for that - in this case that reason is that I hope that people will actually realize what they are doing, rather than forgetting about it and making the same mistakes over and over again. Trust me, I'm really not doing this because I like to 'make myself feel superior' or anything along those lines.

I have already contributed to the problem several times by advising people over and over to NOT rely on webwallets as all of the current solutions lack proper security (two factor auth anyone? - excluding Mt. Gox on this one), and by helping people to secure their stuff.

Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
Quote from: hawks5999
I just can't wait for fall/winter. My furnace never generated money for me before. I'll keep mining until my furnace is more profitable.
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August 02, 2011, 06:14:04 AM
 #10

I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.
My point is that it is better to be constructive.

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes? Do you make backups? After every send? Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there? Do you encrypt it? What if you lose the key?

And so on. This is a hard problem.

Most solutions that work against loss do not work against theft, and vice verse.

To prevent losing your wallet you want to mirror and distribute it to as many places as possible. However, to keep it from being stolen/hacked you want to put it only in one place and heavily encrypt it.

Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
joepie91
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August 02, 2011, 06:18:35 AM
 #11

I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.
Hey it's not like I'm censoring him so stop your "first amendment" pedantry.

My point is that it is better to be constructive.

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes?
That is what (encrypted) backups are for, something I explain to everyone who cares enough. And some of those who don't.
Quote
Do you make backups? After every send?
As far as I am aware you need to make a backup 'every 100 addresses' because the Bitcoin client pregenerates 100 bitcoin addresses and always makes sure there are 100 in reserve. This is perfectly feasible, especially for a beginning user who doesn't use it a lot yet.
Quote
Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there?
That is always an issue - in fact, while if you are running Bitcoin on your own computer you can just keep it in an encrypted unmounted volume while not in use, for an exchange or ewallet the wallet file is always accessible because otherwise the site wouldn't function.
Quote
Do you encrypt it?
Yes.
Quote
What if you lose the key?
What if you lose your ewallet password?
Quote
And so on. This is a hard problem.

Not really. It just takes some time and effort to properly help people in setting it up.

Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
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I just can't wait for fall/winter. My furnace never generated money for me before. I'll keep mining until my furnace is more profitable.
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August 02, 2011, 06:21:15 AM
 #12

I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.
My point is that it is better to be constructive.

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes? Do you make backups? After every send? Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there? Do you encrypt it? What if you lose the key?

And so on. This is a hard problem.


Yes I made backups.  I have a Mac and I backup via TimeMachine every few days.

Plus

I have my wallet.dat encrypted via Truecrypt and the resulting file copied to several places, including burnt CDs.

What boggles my mind is that anyone with more that 10 BTC doen't also do this.

Are you idiots?

Make 1 deposit and earn BTC for life! http://bitcoinpyramid.com/r/345
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August 02, 2011, 06:24:21 AM
 #13

I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.
My point is that it is better to be constructive.

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes? Do you make backups? After every send? Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there? Do you encrypt it? What if you lose the key?

And so on. This is a hard problem.

Most solutions that work against loss do not work against theft, and vice verse.

To prevent losing your wallet you want to mirror and distribute it to as many places as possible. However, to keep it from being stolen/hacked you want to put it only in one place and heavily encrypt it.

AGREED! I too believe people need to be smart about their investments and if they are not smart enough to find someone they trust to be smart enough for them to secure their investment.

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                   ²²²                 
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. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
LEALANA  PHYSICAL MONERO COINS 999 FINE SILVER.
 
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August 02, 2011, 06:24:40 AM
 #14

That is what (encrypted) backups are for, something I explain to everyone who cares enough. And some of those who don't.
Encrypted backups work against loss (as long as you don't lose the key), but not hacking the PC and stealing the coins when in memory.

Quote
Do you make backups? After every send?
As far as I am aware you need to make a backup 'every 100 addresses' because the Bitcoin client pregenerates 100 bitcoin addresses and always makes sure there are 100 in reserve. This is perfectly feasible, especially for a beginning user who doesn't use it a lot yet.
That's extremely confusing to a new user. If you forget it, and have done 101 sends, you might have lost everything.

Quote
What if you lose your ewallet password?
If you lose your ewallet password you can request it back. The money is not lost forever.

Quote
Not really. It just takes some time and effort to properly help people in setting it up.
For a lot of people, it is very hard to set up. That it's easy for you doesn't mean it's easy or intuitive for everyone.

AGREED! I too believe people need to be smart about their investments and if they are not smart enough to find someone they trust to be smart enough for them to secure their investment.
If you only hoard it's easy.

But the idea of bitcoin is not to be an investment. It is to send and receive payments. If you are actively using your coins (like if you have a store) it is very hard to keep all the backups up to date, bother with decrypting/encrypting all the time, mounting volumes, and so on.




Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
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August 02, 2011, 06:27:00 AM
 #15

Thanks for this thread, I completely agree with you. Storing Bitcoins with a third party is not storing Bitcoins. It’s only trusting that the third party stores them for you.

"Hey, have you heard of this new p2p currency? Noone can seize any funds or revert transactions!
You should buy some and if you’re too lazy to actually handle them, just store them on a shady e-wallet site."

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

I think it would have been clever to ask/pay someone to create an actually secure wallet for them, or even put up some bounties for easier solutions or whatever. We are not talking about negligible sums here, I have heard a figure of 25k BTC on NPR with regard to what Bruce Wagner had stored their.

PS: I store considerable funds at MtGox, but they have real identities who I trust attached to them, and I feel comfortable with the security measure in form of a Yubikey.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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August 02, 2011, 06:51:37 AM
 #16

That is what (encrypted) backups are for, something I explain to everyone who cares enough. And some of those who don't.
Encrypted backups work against loss (as long as you don't lose the key), but not hacking the PC and stealing the coins when in memory.
And how does this in any way describe a scenario that could not happen to a proven insecure service again?
Quote
Quote
Do you make backups? After every send?
As far as I am aware you need to make a backup 'every 100 addresses' because the Bitcoin client pregenerates 100 bitcoin addresses and always makes sure there are 100 in reserve. This is perfectly feasible, especially for a beginning user who doesn't use it a lot yet.
That's extremely confusing to a new user. If you forget it, and have done 101 sends, you might have lost everything.


Quote
Not really. It just takes some time and effort to properly help people in setting it up.
For a lot of people, it is very hard to set up. That it's easy for you doesn't mean it's easy or intuitive for everyone.
That is what my entire point about helping people was about - helping them do exactly that. I am not just giving them a link to some tutorial and saying 'good luck with it' - no, I am actually helping them.
Quote
Quote
What if you lose your ewallet password?
If you lose your ewallet password you can request it back. The money is not lost forever.
So because someone could possibly potentially manage to forget his encryption password... encrypting your wallet.dat is a bad idea? Seriously?
Quote

AGREED! I too believe people need to be smart about their investments and if they are not smart enough to find someone they trust to be smart enough for them to secure their investment.
If you only hoard it's easy.

But the idea of bitcoin is not to be an investment. It is to send and receive payments. If you are actively using your coins (like if you have a store) it is very hard to keep all the backups up to date, bother with decrypting/encrypting all the time, mounting volumes, and so on.

Security vs. Convenience.

Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
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August 02, 2011, 06:52:07 AM
 #17

Thanks for this thread

Agreed. If it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't have known I was so quotable as to be part of a sig file.

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August 02, 2011, 06:52:39 AM
 #18


...

PS: I store considerable funds at MtGox, but they have real identities who I trust attached to them, and I feel comfortable with the security measure in form of a Yubikey.

The (potential) trouble is that you cannot get blood from a turnip.  The exchanges are one screw-up away from being insolvent, and your Yubikey is only partial protection against one form of possible problem.  Should any one of a number of possible problems happen it will not matter what the disposition of the operators might be.

For my part, if I have excess funds in the form of BTC, I take them home ASAP.  And put them in encrypted storage wallets with backups and all that jazz.  If/when I want to sell, I'll crack some of the savings wallets open and transfer them right back.  I limit what cash I store with the exchange (Tradhill primarily in my case) to a realistic minimum.

If an exchange wants to hold my BTC, they can pay me interest.  In fact I would be happy to let them hold a portion of my stash to perform futures operations and what-not...but I want a cut of the action.  And at this point none of them are even close to meeting my criteria for confidence in this part of the game.

But, of course, do as you see best.  These are just the ways I do things.

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August 02, 2011, 07:04:16 AM
 #19

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

Honestly, while he has been harsh the MyBitcoin debacle was something easily predictable. There were several threads in the forums warning about the bad service. Specially about not answering emails. Why would you keep a big part of your bitcoins in a place that does not even answer emails? I dont get it.

People need to understand Bitcoin is not reversable, therefore you need to secure them. Bitcoin has a lot of advantages, non-inflationary (when the first phase is done), decentralized, pseudo-anonymous and not reversable (which is an advantage for a lot of things). But in exchange it has its drawbacks, the main one that you really need to secure them. I try not to leave too much time bitcoins at a third party. I dont even have more than 50 bitcoins in the linux machine I have connected to the Internet all the time. The rest of my bitcoins are offline.

Its not that hard to secure your bitcoins.
neofutur
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August 02, 2011, 07:56:21 AM
 #20


Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


 I can provide backup of your wallet on 3 different dedicated server, hosted in 3 different datacenters ( wether you are an individual or an exchange ) .
 For trust concerns you can check my gpg Wot and my otc ratings

 more on my bitcoin services :
http://bitcointalk.org/?topic=1687.0

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