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Author Topic: Freedom and Responsibility - or: why you FAILED if you lost money in MBC crash  (Read 8503 times)
Gabi
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August 02, 2011, 12:05:08 PM
 #21

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

So false.

People who made this mistake made it for some reasons and these reasons are WHY they probably will make again that mistakes again and again.

Something bad happened, and? We must shut up about it and ignore and forget it?

Or maybe we should speak about it and analyze what went wrong and why people lost money? I think the latter is the better way to face the problem.

We have people who sent their money to an unknown guy and guess what? They lost everything. First time it happens? No, not in bitcoin and not in the world!

This remind me EVE Online and the epic IPO/investment/shares scam. People "invest" their ingame money in these things cause omg it give me like 5% interests each month omg. And guess what? Every some months one of them come out to be a scam. Huge lossess happened, one scam stole enouff ingame money to make like 170000$. And yet everytime you go read the forum another scam just happened and so on again and again

People KEEP repeating their mistakes.
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August 02, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
 #22

+1 for joespie91 AND +1 for John Smith.  I feel that they both make some good points.

I think there are a whole lot of possible tests that each one of us would fail and there is a realistic possibility of any number of them coming to pass.

+1

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August 02, 2011, 12:13:17 PM
 #23

It seems that being an early adopter really is brutal and harsh.

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August 02, 2011, 12:32:05 PM
 #24

It seems that being an early adopter really is brutal and harsh.

LOL.  and we have a bunch of whiners here on the forum always complaining about how early adopters assumed NO RISK.
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August 02, 2011, 12:56:33 PM
 #25

Using e-wallet runned by untrusted individual who even doesn't provide his real name is totally stupid. Who lost money here could only blame himself.

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August 02, 2011, 07:27:29 PM
 #26

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?
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August 02, 2011, 09:39:17 PM
 #27

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes? Do you make backups? After every send? Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there? Do you encrypt it? What if you lose the key?

And so on. This is a hard problem.

Most solutions that work against loss do not work against theft, and vice verse.

This is just wrong, wrong and wrong some more.

You only really need one to two backups. Both encrypted with a secure password.  One backup can be stored on site and one backup should be stored off site.  As long as you use common sense in choosing your password (passphrase) for encryption and use a suitable encryption mechanism; I suggest Truecrypt or 7zip.  You are adequately protected from everything but a major disaster of proportions that will make Bitcoin the least of your worries.  As long as it's adequately encrypted, you do not have to worry about it being stolen.

You do not need to make a backup after every send, that is just ludicrous.  Maybe every 75 or 100 sends or perhaps once a week at most unless you are really active.  Regardless, it's not the sends you are concerned with but the receives.  It's the other people job that you are sending to to back up their wallets to protect those transactions. 

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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August 02, 2011, 09:46:09 PM
 #28

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?

I'm curious about this, as well. I don't recall this.

Still around.
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August 02, 2011, 10:35:28 PM
 #29

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?
I'm guessing that joepie91's talking about the mass clearout of mybitcoin accounts where people had used the same password for as their Mt Gox account after the Mt Gox database leak.

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August 02, 2011, 10:42:50 PM
 #30

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?
I'm guessing that joepie91's talking about the mass clearout of mybitcoin accounts where people had used the same password for as their Mt Gox account after the Mt Gox database leak.

Umm.. no. He's talking about MyBitCoin going >poof< and disappearing with everyone's money that was using the "service".

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August 02, 2011, 11:57:45 PM
 #31


Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


 I can provide backup of your wallet on 3 different dedicated server, hosted in 3 different datacenters ( wether you are an individual or an exchange ) .
 For trust concerns you can check my gpg Wot and my otc ratings

 more on my bitcoin services :
http://bitcointalk.org/?topic=1687.0

Seriously stop spamming this sh*t on the mybitcoin threads. We heard you the first time. Oh and put a shirt on please  Grin

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August 03, 2011, 12:13:24 AM
 #32

Before I start, this topic is not intended as trolling. I am entirely serious, and I hope I can wake up some people and make them realize what they are doing.

Bitcoin is about freedom. Freedom to do with your funds what you want. To store them in a way you want, in a way you deem them secure, without having to rely on a third party.

With freedom comes responsibility. Responsibility to take care of the security of your own funds, or to pick a provider you trust and have them take care of it.

If the MyBitcoin crash was a responsibility test, and you lost any considerable amount of money in there, YOU FAILED THE TEST.

Please explain to me how you had the idea that it was a good idea to store considerable funds in a service that has a proven poor track record - remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place? Remember how noone actually appears to really be running the site, and how it is rather 'faceless'? Why would you store any considerable amount of money there? Why did you not store (the majority of) it in a properly secured wallet.dat file on a local machine?

Even if this was not intended as a test, it was a very good one, and you definitely failed it if you indeed lost serious funds.

Just something to think about.

Some of us are not forum trolls hanging out here 24/7 and where unaware of past issues with mybitcoin, as you know from being a forum geek that many people and sites have recomended mybitcoin for storing your coins, this appealed to me due to my constant working away in diffrent countries, So mybitcoin seemed a good solution. I did'nt bother to check for valid mybitcoin email contact due to it had a good reputation at the time I signed up. Its ashame the little teen forum trolls like your self has to come and brag how good they are.

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August 03, 2011, 12:41:59 AM
 #33

Using e-wallet runned by untrusted individual who even doesn't provide his real name is totally stupid. Who lost money here could only blame himself.

Are you insane? The blame squarely lies with the perpetrator not the victim. The prepretrator is solely at fault for the misdeeds.

Could the victim(s) have done more to protect themselves? Perhaps. But does their failing to protect themselves provide any justification for a thief? No.

Have you not found a wallet or seen property such as cash just lying around which you could take and probably never be caught? Personally, I have helped locate the true owners of lost property on multiple occasions; property I could have kept if I wanted to and faced no repercussions. But I am not that type of person.

Freedom and responsibility are about being the type of person who can live in a free society; not about protecting yourself from the type of people who cannot. Freedom is an internal, not external, state of being.

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August 03, 2011, 12:46:07 AM
 #34

Regardless. If you choose to store a valuable commodity such as bitcoin on some random ass server (don't give me this "well-repped" speech. Sony couldn't even keep their database secured and they make billions of dollars per year) without doing any homework, you're pretty much asking for it.

If you travel a lot, ever heard of a USB drive? It was a public server holding tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoins and (as far as anyone knows) no one taking care of the site. Use your brains...

I guess I'd much rather not be the one to have their funds stolen, then sit back and say "Well, that shouldn't have happened... at least it wasn't my fault!"

Help Bitcoins by buying clothes, technology, books, etc. through people/stores that accept BTC. This will increase overall value of BTC as well as mitigate unnecessary bank transaction fees.

My address -
1EM9HGg1SEa5Bux1rVEPxGqGSfNTTc9EkC
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August 03, 2011, 12:58:54 AM
 #35

OK. Pop Quiz.

A couple weeks ago a gentleman posted on the boards that he had created a bitcoin bond and was selling it at a price which guaranteed a very high annualized return. My immediate question was: Did you include your name, address, phone #, soc sec#, or other information that would allow me to sue you if you do not pay? The answer was (paraphrased) "No, I am conducting an experiment to see if folks will trust an anonymous internet identity."

Question: Should you invest?
......
Answer: Of course not. That would be silly.
However, folks did buy those bitcoin bonds! I think that is pretty much what this thread is about.

I cannot imagine giving a penny to anyone without confirming their real world identity unless I was prepared to lose that money.

Folks are saying that they were fooled because mybitcoin.com had a good reputation. I have some sympathy for these folks (although I think they are far more trusting than I am). The reputation of a site is built on the reputation of the folks behind it or the folks recommending it. Considering that we do not even know for sure who was actually running mybitcoin.com, I will assume it was the latter that built the "falsely positive reputation" that folks depended on.

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.
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August 03, 2011, 01:06:02 AM
 #36

OK. Pop Quiz.

A couple weeks ago a gentleman posted on the boards that he had created a bitcoin bond and was selling it at a price which guaranteed a very high annualized return. My immediate question was: Did you include your name, address, phone #, soc sec#, or other information that would allow me to sue you if you do not pay? The answer was (paraphrased) "No, I am conducting an experiment to see if folks will trust an anonymous internet identity."

Question: Should you invest?
......
Answer: Of course not. That would be silly.
However, folks did buy those bitcoin bonds! I think that is pretty much what this thread is about.

I cannot imagine giving a penny to anyone without confirming their real world identity unless I was prepared to lose that money.

Folks are saying that they were fooled because mybitcoin.com had a good reputation. I have some sympathy for these folks (although I think they are far more trusting than I am). The reputation of a site is built on the reputation of the folks behind it or the folks recommending it. Considering that we do not even know for sure who was actually running mybitcoin.com, I will assume it was the latter that built the "falsely positive reputation" that folks depended on.

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.


Well said.

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August 03, 2011, 01:37:37 AM
 #37


...

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.


Speaking of Bruce...

I sure hope that he is OK in all of this.  He obviously had a lot of hope, energy, and passion for the project.  I hope he is not prone to suicidal tendencies or anything like that, is strong enough to look at the whole picture, and experienced enough to know that all things pass.   (It seems at this point that...) Ya, he fucked up.  Big time.  But he is not the only one and he has done a lot of very good work for a very important project and that has not gone away.  I personally appreciate his work a lot and hope not only that he recovers but continues to contribute.


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August 03, 2011, 02:03:15 AM
 #38


...

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.


Speaking of Bruce...

I sure hope that he is OK in all of this.  He obviously had a lot of hope, energy, and passion for the project.  I hope he is not prone to suicidal tendencies or anything like that, is strong enough to look at the whole picture, and experienced enough to know that all things pass.   (It seems at this point that...) Ya, he fucked up.  Big time.  But he is not the only one and he has done a lot of very good work for a very important project and that has not gone away.  I personally appreciate his work a lot and hope not only that he recovers but continues to contribute.


+1

Thanks for pointing out the larger context: that Bruce has made great contributions and by all accounts has the best of intentions.
Bruce appears to be a great person and leader with a lot of potential. I also hope he keeps his perspective: that this is just a bump in the road of life.
(I did not like writing about Bruce's role in this, but I thought it needed to be said, and others would probably say it less nicely.)
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August 03, 2011, 04:46:57 AM
 #39

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?
I'm guessing that joepie91's talking about the mass clearout of mybitcoin accounts where people had used the same password for as their Mt Gox account after the Mt Gox database leak.
Exactly, this.

Hundreds of accounts were cleared out, I believe over 4000 BTC in total, all to the very same address. 3 friends of mine lost funds in that one, all of them went to the same address.

Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
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August 03, 2011, 06:06:46 AM
 #40

I fully agree with the Op, I honestly don't understand how someone can trust an online service. Sony got hacked yet many people beleived a site like MBC would be safe even though it held real money. For all we know Google might get hacked by a few smart people in a few years. Things like those are bound to happen sooner or later.

Asssume for a second they have the equivalent of USD 500k in BTC. Now do a small calculation on whether it would make sense to hire a full time employee hacking the website for a full year. Is it worth it? Now think about salaries in some poor countries...


I am ok with someone storing his life-savings in an online wallet but I am not ok with the complaints that pop up when all the money is suddenly gone.

Some things are just bound to happen...
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