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Author Topic: So since no Bitcoin service can be trusted anymore ...  (Read 2907 times)
bbit
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August 02, 2011, 10:09:54 PM
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what is the point of Bitcoins?  Why are we all still here?
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August 02, 2011, 10:12:56 PM
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what is the point of Bitcoins?  Why are we all still here?
Alright, give me a complete list of services you don't trust and logic-backed reasons why you don't trust them. And I want this compared to the most complete list of bitcoin services you can find. Once you do this, I will proceed to run around my city naked screaming "BITCOIN IS A SCAM" through a bullhorn.

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August 02, 2011, 10:16:31 PM
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what is the point of Bitcoins?  Why are we all still here?
Alright, give me a complete list of services you don't trust and logic-backed reasons why you don't trust them. And I want this compared to the most complete list of bitcoin services you can find. Once you do this, I will proceed to run around my city naked screaming "BITCOIN IS A SCAM" through a bullhorn.

I trust them its everyone else that doesn't!  Just look around people throwing out "scam" on everyone! whats the point of even opening up a Bitcoin Business if people are just labeling everyone a scam ? Now, go ahead run around the city naked screaming "Bitcoin is a SCAM!"   get going!
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August 02, 2011, 10:43:02 PM
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what is the point of Bitcoins?  Why are we all still here?
Alright, give me a complete list of services you don't trust and logic-backed reasons why you don't trust them. And I want this compared to the most complete list of bitcoin services you can find. Once you do this, I will proceed to run around my city naked screaming "BITCOIN IS A SCAM" through a bullhorn.

I trust them its everyone else that doesn't!  Just look around people throwing out "scam" on everyone! whats the point of even opening up a Bitcoin Business if people are just labeling everyone a scam ? Now, go ahead run around the city naked screaming "Bitcoin is a SCAM!"   get going!
Did I not ask for a list?
I can list quite a few services that are trusted by the masses that accept bitcoin.

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August 02, 2011, 10:48:57 PM
 #5

Yeah everything is a scam
I always knew MtGox was a scam Roll Eyes Tradehill too Roll Eyes bitmarket too Roll Eyes coinedbits too Roll Eyes bitomat too Roll Eyes OH SHIIII-

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August 02, 2011, 10:54:45 PM
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we're all here b/c we all think BTC is going to $1000 Smiley
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August 02, 2011, 11:05:46 PM
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It's not trust or distrust, it's the complete absence of any attempt to find out more about how these exchanges/banks/wallets, operate.

For fuck's sake, there should be a fucking mob of people with lit torches hounding the exchanges about whether or not they speculate on their own exchanges, the real state of darkpools, a written roll back policy, written policies on how YOUR bitcoins are being held (can they be invested etc, who is overseeing it?, if they are being used for business expenses, how much?  If they are being invested, how so?).  But no, no one asks anything, and anyone who suggests that they shouldn't be trusted gets labeled a troll.

I wrote this post a few weeks ago about what us former poker players learned about money + limited regulation + interwebs.  It spells trouble way more than not.  The first poster was Tradehill's owner agreeing that we should be putting the screws to Exchanges, demanding transparency whenever possible.

You should be VERY concerned about a "bank run" on various BTC exchanges.  I would bet an appendage of your choosing that some of these exchanges are not keeping 100% of bitcoin deposits in earnest.  That they are liquidating them to pay for business related costs, optimistically, and less optimistically, they are cashing them out for hookers and blow.

You should be VERY concerned about having money on an exchange where the amount of bitcoins being held far exceeds their profit (a lot of exchanges have sub 100 btc volume per day).  The only exchange that would have a problem walking away with all of their bitcoin deposits would be MtGox simply because they are the largest.  If I'm sitting on $500k USD of bitcoins, and my site is only making $100/day profit, you can't fucking tell me that there is no temptation to walk off.  Given the steady volume decline of the last few weeks we are in this situation for many exchanges, and if not, we'll be there soon.

Stop being fucking naive and drop the rose tinted glasses.  Just because you're asking hard questions and are skeptical, doesn't mean you are anti-bitcoin.
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August 02, 2011, 11:32:19 PM
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It's not trust or distrust, it's the complete absence of any attempt to find out more about how these exchanges/banks/wallets, operate.

For fuck's sake, there should be a fucking mob of people with lit torches hounding the exchanges about whether or not they speculate on their own exchanges, the real state of darkpools, a written roll back policy, written policies on how YOUR bitcoins are being held (can they be invested etc, who is overseeing it?, if they are being used for business expenses, how much?  If they are being invested, how so?).  But no, no one asks anything, and anyone who suggests that they shouldn't be trusted gets labeled a troll.

I wrote this post a few weeks ago about what us former poker players learned about money + limited regulation + interwebs.  It spells trouble way more than not.  The first poster was Tradehill's owner agreeing that we should be putting the screws to Exchanges, demanding transparency whenever possible.

You should be VERY concerned about a "bank run" on various BTC exchanges.  I would bet an appendage of your choosing that some of these exchanges are not keeping 100% of bitcoin deposits in earnest.  That they are liquidating them to pay for business related costs, optimistically, and less optimistically, they are cashing them out for hookers and blow.

You should be VERY concerned about having money on an exchange where the amount of bitcoins being held far exceeds their profit (a lot of exchanges have sub 100 btc volume per day).  The only exchange that would have a problem walking away with all of their bitcoin deposits would be MtGox simply because they are the largest.  If I'm sitting on $500k USD of bitcoins, and my site is only making $100/day profit, you can't fucking tell me that there is no temptation to walk off.  Given the steady volume decline of the last few weeks we are in this situation for many exchanges, and if not, we'll be there soon.

Stop being fucking naive and drop the rose tinted glasses.  Just because you're asking hard questions and are skeptical, doesn't mean you are anti-bitcoin.


^ This.

There's nothing keeping anyone honest. There's no accountability

People don't want government involvement yet how is anyone held accountable? Vigilante justice?

Just because you're asking hard questions and are skeptical, doesn't mean you are anti-bitcoin.

So true.
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August 02, 2011, 11:35:16 PM
 #9


...

I wrote this post a few weeks ago about what us former poker players learned about money + limited regulation + interwebs.  It spells trouble way more than not.  The first poster was Tradehill's owner agreeing that we should be putting the screws to Exchanges, demanding transparency whenever possible.

...


Jered also responded to a comment of mine stating in no uncertain terms that everyone should always diversify and spread risk around (vs. keeping everything at Tradehill.)  Although this was preaching to the choir in my case, it impressed me non-the-less.

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August 02, 2011, 11:40:32 PM
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It's not trust or distrust, it's the complete absence of any attempt to find out more about how these exchanges/banks/wallets, operate.

For fuck's sake, there should be a fucking mob of people with lit torches hounding the exchanges about whether or not they speculate on their own exchanges, the real state of darkpools, a written roll back policy, written policies on how YOUR bitcoins are being held (can they be invested etc, who is overseeing it?, if they are being used for business expenses, how much?  If they are being invested, how so?).  But no, no one asks anything, and anyone who suggests that they shouldn't be trusted gets labeled a troll.

I wrote this post a few weeks ago about what us former poker players learned about money + limited regulation + interwebs.  It spells trouble way more than not.  The first poster was Tradehill's owner agreeing that we should be putting the screws to Exchanges, demanding transparency whenever possible.

You should be VERY concerned about a "bank run" on various BTC exchanges.  I would bet an appendage of your choosing that some of these exchanges are not keeping 100% of bitcoin deposits in earnest.  That they are liquidating them to pay for business related costs, optimistically, and less optimistically, they are cashing them out for hookers and blow.

You should be VERY concerned about having money on an exchange where the amount of bitcoins being held far exceeds their profit (a lot of exchanges have sub 100 btc volume per day).  The only exchange that would have a problem walking away with all of their bitcoin deposits would be MtGox simply because they are the largest.  If I'm sitting on $500k USD of bitcoins, and my site is only making $100/day profit, you can't fucking tell me that there is no temptation to walk off.  Given the steady volume decline of the last few weeks we are in this situation for many exchanges, and if not, we'll be there soon.

Stop being fucking naive and drop the rose tinted glasses.  Just because you're asking hard questions and are skeptical, doesn't mean you are anti-bitcoin.

Bingo!  And honestly, I don't see the problem with having a face attached to your BTC at the moment anyway.  If I wanted to do business with someone, I'd want their phone number and full name so I don't get hosed.  After all, the point is honesty and trust in a free market, right?  Put up or shut up.

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August 02, 2011, 11:51:14 PM
 #11

There's nothing keeping anything or anyone honest. There's no accountability

People don't want government involvement yet how is anyone/anything held accountable? Vigilante justice?

Private insurance with reliable, reputable insurance companies. Private bonds deposited into reliable, reputable financial institutions.

All of which cost money, which was a problem a year ago when nobody really knew much of anything about bitcoin.

We need legal contracts with businesses that are in a legal jurisdictions where the contracts can be enforced in court.  I don't think we'll get a non-governmental legal system in my lifetime, so I'm personally happy to rely on the imperfect government courts we've got today.

How often do you get the chance to work on a potentially world-changing project?
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August 03, 2011, 12:50:06 AM
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There already is an alternative to government court systems, and it happens all the time, more so in "primitive" communities, but it is in my opinion the best solution, especially in thefts like these

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorative_justice
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August 03, 2011, 04:13:02 AM
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what is the point of Bitcoins?  Why are we all still here?
Alright, give me a complete list of services you don't trust and logic-backed reasons why you don't trust them. And I want this compared to the most complete list of bitcoin services you can find. Once you do this, I will proceed to run around my city naked screaming "BITCOIN IS A SCAM" through a bullhorn.

Show me a list of services or websites that provide only an e-mail address and no phone number and you will have your list of untrusted sites.   Pretty simple rule I have always used with online transactions.
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August 03, 2011, 04:27:10 AM
 #14

what is the point of Bitcoins?  Why are we all still here?

Most services can be trusted somewhat. It's just that on the 0%-100% scale of trust, most currently are on the low end of the scale. But apparently, too many people will ignore that (or wrongly calculate the trust level) and store an absurd number of bitcoins with them.

ALL bitcoin users should keep the bulk of their bitcoins in an offline, backed-up wallet. Duh.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
...
In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
...
The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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August 03, 2011, 05:22:35 AM
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I don't see why much trust is even necessary for the Bitcoin economy to function properly.  I just posted why in newbie jail: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33892.0
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August 03, 2011, 06:09:48 AM
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Show me a list of services or websites that provide only an e-mail address and no phone number and you will have your list of untrusted sites.   Pretty simple rule I have always used with online transactions.

Not exactly, I've got all my contact details for the net on glbse.com, I COULD give a phone number but it would only be for a mobile in China (do you guys really want that? should I add it?).

Essentially only have trading bitcoin on sites, that is whatever the amount you intend to trade soon. Don't use them as wallets or for long term savings. I would say the same is true for GLBSE.

These sites are run by humans, who do make mistakes (accidents) and who also decide to do bad things (mybitcoin.com???).

Spread your risk as Gavin said, and remember bitcoin itself is a very risky investment.

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August 03, 2011, 01:41:55 PM
 #17

Any website owner that provides its real contact information (name, address, phone number), have reps that talks here or on IRC, is trustworthy.

Not sure why anyone trusted mybitcoin.com though, the first time I used it, I felt a bad vibe from the site, I used to have 0.5 BTC in there, but then I felt so much bad vibe from the site, especially after the mtgox incident(mybitcoin did not even try to protect any user, and let mtgox hacker steal thousands of BTC, they had several days to act), I withdrew my 0.5 BTC from it, and had a 0 balance there, this is how much that site is trustworthy to me, I wouldn't even risk 0.5 BTC sitting there.

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August 03, 2011, 02:30:34 PM
 #18

Any website owner that provides its real contact information (name, address, phone number), have reps that talks here or on IRC, is trustworthy.

The last guy (group) that I know of that scammed and ran, had a name, a physical office, an address and definitely phone numbers. Didn't stop them from closing shop prior to a long public holiday and disappearing with unpaid for goods from various vendors.

There are people here who offer money to people to register prepaid phone numbers for them, some are then used by illegal moneylenders and such.

Then there's an entire industry for registered offices and shell companies which provides persons as shareholders and directors as well as physical offices and somebody to answer phones.

Sorry but just because somebody provides "real" contact information doesn't mean anything if they are out to scam.

While there might be technical solutions to make it harder for fraud or accidental losses, the fact remains that usually the weakest link in any security system is the user. The trade off between convenience, anonymity and security means nobody will use bitcoin for anything if we really want to make it totally secure and user-proof (although I'm reminded of the joke that nobody can foolproof anything because Nature/Evolution can always make a better fool)

The only real solution is to spread the risk, and don't be so silly as to put more funds than necessary into any transactional account. This applies even for real bank accounts. Personally, I refuse increases in credit limit and never put more than necessary for expected online transactions in a debit card account. So anybody who gets steals the cards would only be able to get away with a very limited amount of credit/cash.


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August 03, 2011, 02:37:47 PM
 #19

what is the point of Bitcoins?  Why are we all still here?
Alright, give me a complete list of services you don't trust and logic-backed reasons why you don't trust them. And I want this compared to the most complete list of bitcoin services you can find. Once you do this, I will proceed to run around my city naked screaming "BITCOIN IS A SCAM" through a bullhorn.

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August 03, 2011, 03:25:06 PM
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I'm just saying the people that has these info out in the open, is more trustworthy, and that's a basis to build trust on. Also these US based info are often
traceable if a high dollar amount crime was committed (in the tens of thousands).

Any website owner that provides its real contact information (name, address, phone number), have reps that talks here or on IRC, is trustworthy.

The last guy (group) that I know of that scammed and ran, had a name, a physical office, an address and definitely phone numbers. Didn't stop them from closing shop prior to a long public holiday and disappearing with unpaid for goods from various vendors.

There are people here who offer money to people to register prepaid phone numbers for them, some are then used by illegal moneylenders and such.

Then there's an entire industry for registered offices and shell companies which provides persons as shareholders and directors as well as physical offices and somebody to answer phones.

Sorry but just because somebody provides "real" contact information doesn't mean anything if they are out to scam.

While there might be technical solutions to make it harder for fraud or accidental losses, the fact remains that usually the weakest link in any security system is the user. The trade off between convenience, anonymity and security means nobody will use bitcoin for anything if we really want to make it totally secure and user-proof (although I'm reminded of the joke that nobody can foolproof anything because Nature/Evolution can always make a better fool)

The only real solution is to spread the risk, and don't be so silly as to put more funds than necessary into any transactional account. This applies even for real bank accounts. Personally, I refuse increases in credit limit and never put more than necessary for expected online transactions in a debit card account. So anybody who gets steals the cards would only be able to get away with a very limited amount of credit/cash.



If my post has been helpful, send me some love -> BTC: 1kokojUapmWqCqPw3Ch2rjcVh57tJEzka | PPC: PDyXAgA8eH47gokVW6zVZPSuu15aao5nZF | Bitshares: kokojie
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