[HAVELOCK] (HIF) Havelock Investments Fund

[ergofobe]

Strange, they just give us their address, knowing nobody will bother to go there, and avoid to give an answer to the real questions.
Who could have guessed!

FWIW, I've been to the offices many times.  It's not just a shelf corporation.  They are serious about building a solid and trustworthy business.  

I deal with leadership of The Panama Fund directly on a regular basis, and have been for awhile.  They're some of my best and largest customers.

And who are you, what do you do, and why should we take your word for it? How do we know you are not just one of the Havelock guys trying to hype your stock under a sock-puppet account?

You shouldn't take my word for it.  You should verify for yourself.  But since you're obviously not willing to make the effort, and seem content to sit here all day trolling, I guess you'll just have to take me at my word.

How do you suggest i should verify it?  Not that your word ain't plenty good enough 4 me, but for those doubters who aren't 100% convinced they should get in the van invest?

*This is the first multimillion i've dealt with that can't even afford decent socks.

Hop on a plane.  Come to Panama.  Visit the office.  They've already invited you.  I don't think it could be spelled out any more clearly.

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I'm not trolling if you're not trolling.  Care to share the address of the office you visit so often?  Or does this reputable multimillion dollar corporation wish to remain anonymous just like its friends, the other multimillion dollar corporations?

I don't represent TPF, but they are my customer, so I'm more concerned with protecting their privacy than squelching your doubts.  However, the address he listed, in Tower A of the Torres de las Americas, in Punta Pacifica, Panama City, Republic of Panama is valid.  The information desk on the ground floor will be able to assist you -- but since it's a secure building, they will need to announce you to the office before granting you a visitors pass.  I suggest you show up in business casual attire, as that's the minimum standard here in Panama.

Calling me lazy because i'm not willing to book an international flight to visit a company that's not willing to post its address on the internet is pretty ballsy.  The address that you quoted is absurd.  Other companies leasing office space at that address provide their entire address, a quick google search will tell you that.  I suggest you stop bullshitting me, it's the minimum standard here in the US.

[ergofobe]

And who are you, what do you do, and why should we take your word for it? How do we know you are not just one of the Havelock guys trying to hype your stock under a sock-puppet account?

I founded Panama Bitcoins.  http://www.panamabitcoins.com.  You can check the whois records and verify we've been operating longer than Havelock or TPF have existed, so if there's a sock-puppet involved, then it would have to be the other way around.  We're the primary Bitcoin exchange in Panama.  We're no Bitstamp or Mt. Gox, but considering the entire population of Panama is only about 4 million, we're doing ok.

My business partner, vite, has also posted and vouched for TPF.  He's been on bitcointalk longer than I have, and has established his reputation on this forum.  If you can't trust me, maybe you can trust him.  

Also, neither of us have a -4 trust rating on bitcointalk, as opposed to yourself, so maybe you should justify why we (and the rest of the world too) shouldn't just discount you as a troll since you obviously have a negative reputation.

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The flippers got burnt.

Thankfully they live underwater.

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And who are you, what do you do, and why should we take your word for it? How do we know you are not just one of the Havelock guys trying to hype your stock under a sock-puppet account?

I founded Panama Bitcoins.  http://www.panamabitcoins.com.  You can check the whois records and verify we've been operating longer than Havelock or TPF have existed, so if there's a sock-puppet involved, then it would have to be the other way around.  We're the primary Bitcoin exchange in Panama.  We're no Bitstamp or Mt. Gox, but considering the entire population of Panama is only about 4 million, we're doing ok.
...

Your account is less than a year old.  The site you claim is yours is behind Whoisguard, so ... not interesting.
Regarding your trust rating reference:  Yours is no higher than mine, while TradeFortress blows both of us out of the water.  Go figure.

[ergofobe]

Calling me lazy because i'm not willing to book an international flight to visit a company that's not willing to post its address on the internet is pretty ballsy.  The address that you quoted is absurd.  Other companies leasing office space at that address provide their entire address, a quick google search will tell you that.  I suggest you stop bullshitting me, it's the minimum standard here in the US.

Torres de las Americas is a very large building.  There are a lot of businesses in there, and most of them do not publish their full addresses, if they publish ANY address.  Any high-finance organization would be wise to take additional security precautions against walk-in threats.  Setting up appointments, going through a proper vetting process, etc, are reasonable methods to protect the persons who hold the keys to large amounts of money.  If you held the keys to millions of dollars, and lived in an area where kidnappings are not uncommon, would you publish your name and address to the world?

[ergofobe]

And who are you, what do you do, and why should we take your word for it? How do we know you are not just one of the Havelock guys trying to hype your stock under a sock-puppet account?

I founded Panama Bitcoins.  http://www.panamabitcoins.com.  You can check the whois records and verify we've been operating longer than Havelock or TPF have existed, so if there's a sock-puppet involved, then it would have to be the other way around.  We're the primary Bitcoin exchange in Panama.  We're no Bitstamp or Mt. Gox, but considering the entire population of Panama is only about 4 million, we're doing ok.
...

Your account is less than a year old.  The site you claim is yours is behind Whoisguard, so ... not interesting.

Bitcoin has only been around for 4 years.  Just because I've only been part of the community for 25% of the life of Bitcoin doesn't mean I've been around less time than Havelock.  It's a new tech.  We're all new here.  But if you're going to claim that I'm a sock puppet, you should at least establish a timeline of who came first.

[jimmothy]

And who are you, what do you do, and why should we take your word for it? How do we know you are not just one of the Havelock guys trying to hype your stock under a sock-puppet account?

I founded Panama Bitcoins.  http://www.panamabitcoins.com.  You can check the whois records and verify we've been operating longer than Havelock or TPF have existed, so if there's a sock-puppet involved, then it would have to be the other way around.  We're the primary Bitcoin exchange in Panama.  We're no Bitstamp or Mt. Gox, but considering the entire population of Panama is only about 4 million, we're doing ok.
...

Your account is less than a year old.  The site you claim is yours is behind Whoisguard, so ... not interesting.

Bitcoin has only been around for 4 years.  Just because I've only been part of the community for 25% of the life of Bitcoin doesn't mean I've been around less time than Havelock.  It's a new tech.  We're all new here.  But if you're going to claim that I'm a sock puppet, you should at least establish a timeline of who came first.

Not sure why you are wasting your time with that armchair sleuth/troll.

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Calling me lazy because i'm not willing to book an international flight to visit a company that's not willing to post its address on the internet is pretty ballsy.  The address that you quoted is absurd.  Other companies leasing office space at that address provide their entire address, a quick google search will tell you that.  I suggest you stop bullshitting me, it's the minimum standard here in the US.

Torres de las Americas is a very large building.  There are a lot of businesses in there, and most of them do not publish their full addresses, if they publish ANY address.  Any high-finance organization would be wise to take additional security precautions against walk-in threats.  Setting up appointments, going through a proper vetting process, etc, are reasonable methods to protect the persons who hold the keys to large amounts of money.  If you held the keys to millions of dollars, and lived in an area where kidnappings are not uncommon, would you publish your name and address to the world?

My neighborhood bank holds the keys to more money than your Panamanian shell will ever see, yet the branch manager gladly offers his business card when asked.  He also doesn't ask me to fly out to some God-forsaken crimeland as a part of my "due diligence."  If you can't even guarantee your own safety in that place where you live, why in the world would i want to visit you there, formally attired even?  You want me to get kidnapped or raped?!  Are you planning to harvest my kidneys as soon as i'm off the plane?
I don't think it would be wise to invest in a financial service operating under such lawless and dangerous conditions.  You should have told me to wear full body armor, not semi-formal dress  

[jimmothy]

Calling me lazy because i'm not willing to book an international flight to visit a company that's not willing to post its address on the internet is pretty ballsy.  The address that you quoted is absurd.  Other companies leasing office space at that address provide their entire address, a quick google search will tell you that.  I suggest you stop bullshitting me, it's the minimum standard here in the US.

Torres de las Americas is a very large building.  There are a lot of businesses in there, and most of them do not publish their full addresses, if they publish ANY address.  Any high-finance organization would be wise to take additional security precautions against walk-in threats.  Setting up appointments, going through a proper vetting process, etc, are reasonable methods to protect the persons who hold the keys to large amounts of money.  If you held the keys to millions of dollars, and lived in an area where kidnappings are not uncommon, would you publish your name and address to the world?

My neighborhood bank holds the keys to more money than your Panamanian shell will ever see, yet the branch manager gladly offers his business card when asked.  He also doesn't ask me to fly out to some God-forsaken crimeland as a part of my "due diligence."  If you can't even guarantee your own safety in that place where you live, why in the world would i want to visit you there, formally attired even?  You want me to get kidnapped or raped?!  Are you planning to harvest my kidneys as soon as i'm off the plane?
I don't think it would be wise to invest in a financial service operating under such lawless and dangerous conditions.  You should have told me to wear full body armor, not semi-formal dress  

Just stop. You are making yourself look silly.

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And who are you, what do you do, and why should we take your word for it? How do we know you are not just one of the Havelock guys trying to hype your stock under a sock-puppet account?

I founded Panama Bitcoins.  http://www.panamabitcoins.com.  You can check the whois records and verify we've been operating longer than Havelock or TPF have existed, so if there's a sock-puppet involved, then it would have to be the other way around.  We're the primary Bitcoin exchange in Panama.  We're no Bitstamp or Mt. Gox, but considering the entire population of Panama is only about 4 million, we're doing ok.
...

Your account is less than a year old.  The site you claim is yours is behind Whoisguard, so ... not interesting.

Bitcoin has only been around for 4 years.  Just because I've only been part of the community for 25% of the life of Bitcoin doesn't mean I've been around less time than Havelock.  It's a new tech.  We're all new here.  But if you're going to claim that I'm a sock puppet, you should at least establish a timeline of who came first.

No, some of us aren't new here.  Some of us have new accounts, which by no means suggests we're new.  You have been on this forum far shorter than Havelock existed, though i may be wrong on that.  Am i?

[ergofobe]

Not sure why you are wasting your time with that armchair sleuth/troll.

Thanks for reminding me not to feed the trolls.. Fell into the quagmire a bit didn't I?

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Calling me lazy because i'm not willing to book an international flight to visit a company that's not willing to post its address on the internet is pretty ballsy.  The address that you quoted is absurd.  Other companies leasing office space at that address provide their entire address, a quick google search will tell you that.  I suggest you stop bullshitting me, it's the minimum standard here in the US.

Torres de las Americas is a very large building.  There are a lot of businesses in there, and most of them do not publish their full addresses, if they publish ANY address.  Any high-finance organization would be wise to take additional security precautions against walk-in threats.  Setting up appointments, going through a proper vetting process, etc, are reasonable methods to protect the persons who hold the keys to large amounts of money.  If you held the keys to millions of dollars, and lived in an area where kidnappings are not uncommon, would you publish your name and address to the world?

My neighborhood bank holds the keys to more money than your Panamanian shell will ever see, yet the branch manager gladly offers his business card when asked.  He also doesn't ask me to fly out to some God-forsaken crimeland as a part of my "due diligence."  If you can't even guarantee your own safety in that place where you live, why in the world would i want to visit you there, formally attired even?  You want me to get kidnapped or raped?!  Are you planning to harvest my kidneys as soon as i'm off the plane?
I don't think it would be wise to invest in a financial service operating under such lawless and dangerous conditions.  You should have told me to wear full body armor, not semi-formal dress  

Just stop. You are making yourself look silly.

Sorry jimmothy.  I understand that you're still hoping to flip your shares, and i feel just awful that this isn't helping.  But you have to understand that for you to sell, someone more clueless than you would have to buy.  I'm afraid my egalitarian streak is a mile wide, and i have compassion for those so badly cheated by genetics and Mother Nature.  I simply can't let you cheat them just because you feel cheated

[jimmothy]

While I think it is a terribly overpriced investment, I do not understand your obsession with registrations and locations, crumbs. That's not really an indicator of success or trustworthiness especially in these parts.

Agreed. The company evaluation is what made me not invest. I don't think the company is worth the amount they evaluated but if the "50 projects in the pipeline" is true then I could be wrong.

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While I think it is a terribly overpriced investment, I do not understand your obsession with registrations and locations, crumbs. That's not really an indicator of success or trustworthiness especially in these parts.

In these parts, there hasn't *been* any success.
Go to the Havelock site.
Click on any security.
Click on "charts."
See any success?  
NO.  Not a single case.

*The registration & location are awfully handy when the guy who scammed you sez "OKBAI!" and your money is gone.
It goes to reason that scammers, unless they're made harmless by desperation or stupidity, prefer to give you neither.

[Peter Lambert]

And who are you, what do you do, and why should we take your word for it? How do we know you are not just one of the Havelock guys trying to hype your stock under a sock-puppet account?

I founded Panama Bitcoins.  http://www.panamabitcoins.com.  You can check the whois records and verify we've been operating longer than Havelock or TPF have existed, so if there's a sock-puppet involved, then it would have to be the other way around.  We're the primary Bitcoin exchange in Panama.  

I don't feel like finding the quote right now, but I seem to remember somebody saying TPF was founded in 2008? As in, before bitcoins were started? So how have you had a bitcoin exchange longer than bitcoin has been around?

[MonkeyBear68]

With the high price of Bitcoin people it seems are more cautious than ever with what they invest in. That being said you will never get any guarantees especially for VC type investments. Bitcoin and any business trying to create a service based around it are still considered VC.

I have invested with Havelock for over 15 months now and never have had any issues with getting my BTC. On some funds I gained BTC, on some funds I lost BTC, but that is the free market at play especially for Bitcoin based VC!! They seem very professional and genuine in trying to provide a good site for trading. I can understand that some business information must remain private. If they simply stated all their prospective clients for 2014, then their competitors could simply approach those people and attempt to influence them.

Havelock already has tens of thousands of BTC of investors money in their funds. Obviously they already have a certain level of trust in the community. As to the valuation of Havelock for the IPO, people need to make their own determination and invest accordingly. At this point in time saying they are trying to create a scam with HIF is unproven and in my opinion slanderous.

Bernie Madoff knew many of the people he scammed very well. They knew his address. He was well trusted. That did not stop him from running a Ponzi scheme with their money. In total they lost Billions!! There are never guarantees.

I have never personally met any of the guys running Havelock, so the above is my assessment as a Venture Capital (VC) investor.

[ergofobe]

I don't feel like finding the quote right now, but I seem to remember somebody saying TPF was founded in 2008? As in, before bitcoins were started? So how have you had a bitcoin exchange longer than bitcoin has been around?

Ok, I can't speak to the date that TPF was founded.  I should have limited the scope of my statement to "older than havelockinvestments.com", since that's easily verifiable in whois.  I stand corrected.  

But it doesn't change the fact that I've been around long enough to have established myself as a legitimate operation -- even if a small one --  in the eyes of my customers.  Whether you trust me or the statements I've made is your problem..  I've simply added my voice to the mix, and confirmed that TPF does have an office at the address they provided, and that I have seen it, and that I have met and exchange Bitcoin with the leadership.  You don't know if you can trust me anymore than I know if I can trust you.  We don't trust anyone in common either that I'm aware of.

So, until you or someone you trust comes to Panama, you'll never know for sure if TPF is legitimate or not.  But until that happens, you should shut your pie hole and quit making claims you can't back up.  Claiming he's a fake because you can't be bothered to pay him a visit is trollish at best.  I or TPF or anyone else could just as easily say they live at 5114 Heather Drive, Welcome, Texas, 76953-3994, but until someone you trust goes there and knocks on the door, you can't verify that it's true OR FALSE.  It doesn't matter if he provides a complete, detailed address, or just instructions on how to get to the building and ask at the front desk, you're not going to know unless you verify it for yourself.

[Korbman]

Here's how I see it, and *please* correct me if I'm wrong or if I missed anything, since most of what I know is based on U.S. regulations and I'm not sure how it translates to Panama.

Based on what I've read so far, there seems to be some confusion between the Havelock Exchange and the Havelock that we see now, since people are assuming they're the same thing.

The Havelock that acted as a securities exchange is technically no more. The business was sold to the Panama Fund, which took over all operational activities. Now, the legality of running an exchange is a bit murky for me, but I do know that in order to run it properly all securities hosted by the exchange must be abiding by rules and regulations of their jurisdictions, as well as where the exchange is located. In any case, achieving that is extremely hard to do as it is so complex and expensive, which I'm sure ties into why BitFunder and BTCT shut down.

To get around this, TPF restructured the operation as a Venture Capital Fund, which is much easier to set up to comply with regulations (at least here in the States). It allows them to work with a variety of businesses to raise capital, and they can open up investing to both accredited investors and "knowledgeable" investors.

In any case, the original owners we've grown accustomed to (Lightbox and his business partner) aren't the ones in charge anymore. HIF is playing out in somewhat the same way as CFIG, if anyone remembers how that went. If HIF is able to attract outside investors (outside of the Bitcoin community), then the fund may do well. Relying on raising capital from just the Bitcoin community requires quite a bit more transparency than what's been provided.

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With the high price of Bitcoin people it seems are more cautious than ever with what they invest in. That being said you will never get any guarantees especially for VC type investments. Bitcoin and any business trying to create a service based around it are still considered VC.

I have invested with Havelock for over 15 months now and never have had any issues with getting my BTC. On some funds I gained BTC, on some funds I lost BTC, but that is the free market at play especially for Bitcoin based VC!! ...

You have traded on Havelock for over 15 months.
Your account is half that age.
After a post in May, you disappear for 2 months from the forum, and when you return, almost all of your posts are white knighting Havelock, which you have not mentioned *once* before.
Could you offer a plausible backstory?