UABB is a...

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Thank you again, Xephan. Allow me to ask a hard question and please don't take it personal. Would you kindly show a post or two where Matthew with NABB passed judgement? I'm not being an ass with that question, for I TRULY would love to see it. Thank you, in advance. Bruno (my read first name).

That's a trick question since he probably didn't do it in any post. Neither am I, nor the other member who brought up a similar concern, saying he's passing judgment in the forum.

But this http://uabb.org/accreditation.php shows that his "business" model basically sets themselves up as an agency that judges others as "secure", "honest" and "ethical". By implications, if you're not accredited with UABB, you're "unsecured" and/or "dishonest" and/or "unethical".

I didn't intend on asking a trick question. Nonetheless, if this is true, "By implications, if you're not accredited with UABB, you're "unsecured" and/or "dishonest" and/or "unethical".", (now where the hell do I put the comma?),,,,I won't want any of my Bitcoin related sites affected because their not accredited. With that said: http://www.newbusiness.co.uk/articles/business-continuity/getting-accredited-has-huge-advantages-businesses Hypothetical: What if there were three major alpaca sock websites that accept Bitcoin, and only one was accredited. Would the other two not get any traffic or sales due to UABB? Walk me through how that would, or would not, work. (I sure the hell hope I didn't accidentally ask another trick question)

[1713572422]

1713572422

[1713572422]

1713572422

[Phinnaeus Gage]

(2) It appears to be a one-man operation, which is fine, but he acts like it's a multinational conglomerate with 100's of agents working on his behalf.

It certainly started that way, but now there are 4 participants at the executive level and 6 at the lower management level, and that's just for the UABB alone. The UABCI has already 30 members participating.

Sounds like you have 10 managers and nobody to manage! I hope you're paying the going rate for these grandiose titles, say $500k a year for executive management. You are actually paying people, right? (I mean today, not in X years time)

Here on the Internet we have the most respect for organizations that operate as meritocracies and laugh at hierarchical management structures with nothing holding them up.

Can you show that you're not the gobshite that you appear to be?

Boy, I can't wait till Matthew wakes up and tries to prove he's not a gobshite.

Thank you kindly, bitplane, for your input.

[Anonymous]

Add an option to the poll for "Self Important Fuckwit"

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Holding options open.

I guess Matthew wants to do something for the community (and maybe lost quite a bit with MyBitcoin) and this is what he came up with, being a bit inexperienced with this type of communities (he said somewhere that he found it chaotic) he does things that are considered inappropriate and his idea being unwanted (community feels attack on its freedom).

I guess he is a business guy or manager. Most people here have different ways of thinking (not in a negative way, just different and that causes conflicts).

Or, I'm totally wrong. I base my trust on actions, not on talk.

Thank you for your honest opinion, BioMike.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I have been baffled from the very start why anything I am doing could be even remotely constrewed as a scam. I hear the "qualifications" argument, and it hits close to home. I'll work on that one, because I have a passion for my work. I hear the "unprofessional" or "rude" argument. Brought on by the public's own actions, but hey, needs work too! I'm on it!

What I don't understand is how I went from sitting up all night long on a conference call with multiple people in the Bitcoin community going over this idea with them and having them all say "Fucking fantastic, do it!" to almost EVERYONE in the community associating my with the likes of spreadsheet game runners.

Does no one know that I am a good programmer and earn my reputation painfully? Does no one realize I am the one who made BIT-FU, all in Jquery, by hand? Does no one know that I have at least 10 years of business experience-- INTERNATIONALLY? Does no one understand that I'm still virtually new to Bitcoin and am just a caring person who wants to be USEFUL?

Am I taking crazy pills or is EVERYONE completely likeminded and biased from the start against anything that smells like its potentially useful, unless THEY made it??

If the op is even remotely depressed, how the hell do you think it makes me feel? These are all human beings here, who have total control of what they want to think and say, and are choosing to bite at me like I was some kind of a rabid dog, out to ruin Bitcoin for everyone. What in god's name is wrong with this community? I come from a community of developers where when Joe makes a program, everyone says "Good job Joe! Let's work together to make that better!". Here it's like, Joe makes a program and there are 3 responses.

"Fuck you Joe"
"That's never going to succeed"
"Thanks for making that, I really appreciate it, that's why I'm going to steal it and call it my own"

Wow. Just wow. /end rant

In a moment of absolute honesty, once the clock hits midnight, I do get way too vocal and liberal with my communications and should probably refrain from even posting past that hour (it's 1am now for a prime example).

Once again I question your reliability given your constant responses to nonsense. If you are doing what you say you are doing then you don't have time for this type of bullshit and would ignore it and get on with the tons of work you claim to have ahead of you.

Seriously prove us all wrong...

Fair enough, smoothie. Thank you kindly for the comment.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I guess he is a business guy or manager. Most people here have different ways of thinking (not in a negative way, just different and that causes conflicts).

Or, I'm totally wrong. I base my trust on actions, not on talk.

He does come across like a PR/business guy with the title dropping. Sounds like the MLM folks I've seen before... "As a Gold level leader, I assure you...". Well, we have said quite a few things so let's see how he responses to them in action, or not.

That reminds, me. I need to order more Drain-O from Amway.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Add an option to the poll for "Self Important Fuckwit"

I love this forum! Thank you, Gilgamesh, for provide an additional option. It's available now. Remember, your vote counts.

[Xephan]

I didn't intend on asking a trick question. Nonetheless, if this is true, "By implications, if you're not accredited with UABB, you're "unsecured" and/or "dishonest" and/or "unethical".", (now where the hell do I put the comma?),,,,I won't want any of my Bitcoin related sites affected because their not accredited. With that said: http://www.newbusiness.co.uk/articles/business-continuity/getting-accredited-has-huge-advantages-businesses Hypothetical: What if there were three major alpaca sock websites that accept Bitcoin, and only one was accredited. Would the other two not get any traffic or sales due to UABB? Walk me through how that would, or would not, work. (I sure the hell hope I didn't accidentally ask another trick question)

I'm not a business or marketing major so what I say, may not be the accepted theories. However, from observations in my area, the significance of accreditation depends on the nature/value of the transaction, familiarity with the type of transaction, existing perception/climate,  market size/penetration level.

Value/nature of the transaction is straightforward, if alpaca socks are relatively cheap, people are probably not going to care about accreditation as much. Quite different if we're talking about houses.


Familiarity is another factor and bitcoin-based business is very new. This is similar to the early days of eCommerce when people are hesitant about buying things online. My country started an eCommerce accreditation in those days and it made a difference. I get customers/users then who asked about getting it or whether it's safe to buy from sites that aren't accredited. Nowadays, it's so common, nobody even cares about the accreditation, it was even funny when I saw the accreditation logo on a major local site going "Your accreditation has expired" and they didn't even care to remove/update it for months.

Existing climate or perception is related to familiarity because essentially familiarity means comfort and certainty. If users are uncertain or fearful, like currently due to the series of mishaps, it's easier for an accreditation to look more impressive and influential. After all, who here would really care if somebody starts a "Pizza Accreditation" organisation? It's nothing that most of us would view as a risky buy nor is there a climate of uncertainty about the edibility of pizzas in general, hence the disengagement.


Market size and penetration also works on the psychological level. When there are, relatively, a small number of "established" businesses, just a few getting accredited will look like a significant number. In the alpaca socks scenario, 1 out of 3 is 33%, significant but maybe the absolute number of 1 wouldn't quite have the same effect of say 10 out of 30. But as the market size increases, the same level of penetration becomes less significant simply because users usually can't be bothered to check out every single option. If they find 100 alpaca socks sellers without accreditation and 30 with, they are most likely going to dismiss the accreditation as something extra they don't care about, especially if they need to pay more.

All that together is why I feel at the current stage of bitcoin development, a single body aspiring to do what the UABB is doing would gather too much influence too quickly. Especially when the market isn't large enough to support another accreditation body to act as a counter check. The structure of the organisation is also worrying since it reflects the mentality and ambitions of the person behind it.

[xcooling]

don't know him, but his posts are very similar to a confidence trickster.

some things that have bothered me:
trying to launch a brand, anyone with a business brain knows you don't launch incomplete products and services.
trying to do too many "large" scale projects at once, no one can successfully launch multiple different businesses at the same time.
everything seems to have an alternate motive.
no idea how big business is done.. (ie. purchasing 100+ gpus.. you go to the source and make the manufacturers tender for your business).
to eager to list accomplishments.
has no idea how the legal system works, case in point would be mybitcoin investigation.
wants to be the official bitcoin spokesperson and representative.

If he has the resources, why does he do all the work ? and why are the websites incomplete?

Oh and lastly.. why doesn't he just spend us$10 million.. im sure he has way more.. buy out mtgox.com, tradehill.com and purchase the rights for bitcoin.org ... Or better yet, buy the trademark and IP of bitcoin, and sue everyone.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I didn't intend on asking a trick question. Nonetheless, if this is true, "By implications, if you're not accredited with UABB, you're "unsecured" and/or "dishonest" and/or "unethical".", (now where the hell do I put the comma?),,,,I won't want any of my Bitcoin related sites affected because their not accredited. With that said: http://www.newbusiness.co.uk/articles/business-continuity/getting-accredited-has-huge-advantages-businesses Hypothetical: What if there were three major alpaca sock websites that accept Bitcoin, and only one was accredited. Would the other two not get any traffic or sales due to UABB? Walk me through how that would, or would not, work. (I sure the hell hope I didn't accidentally ask another trick question)

I'm not a business or marketing major so what I say, may not be the accepted theories. However, from observations in my area, the significance of accreditation depends on the nature/value of the transaction, familiarity with the type of transaction, existing perception/climate,  market size/penetration level.

Value/nature of the transaction is straightforward, if alpaca socks are relatively cheap, people are probably not going to care about accreditation as much. Quite different if we're talking about houses.


Familiarity is another factor and bitcoin-based business is very new. This is similar to the early days of eCommerce when people are hesitant about buying things online. My country started an eCommerce accreditation in those days and it made a difference. I get customers/users then who asked about getting it or whether it's safe to buy from sites that aren't accredited. Nowadays, it's so common, nobody even cares about the accreditation, it was even funny when I saw the accreditation logo on a major local site going "Your accreditation has expired" and they didn't even care to remove/update it for months.

Existing climate or perception is related to familiarity because essentially familiarity means comfort and certainty. If users are uncertain or fearful, like currently due to the series of mishaps, it's easier for an accreditation to look more impressive and influential. After all, who here would really care if somebody starts a "Pizza Accreditation" organisation? It's nothing that most of us would view as a risky buy nor is there a climate of uncertainty about the edibility of pizzas in general, hence the disengagement.


Market size and penetration also works on the psychological level. When there are, relatively, a small number of "established" businesses, just a few getting accredited will look like a significant number. In the alpaca socks scenario, 1 out of 3 is 33%, significant but maybe the absolute number of 1 wouldn't quite have the same effect of say 10 out of 30. But as the market size increases, the same level of penetration becomes less significant simply because users usually can't be bothered to check out every single option. If they find 100 alpaca socks sellers without accreditation and 30 with, they are most likely going to dismiss the accreditation as something extra they don't care about, especially if they need to pay more.

All that together is why I feel at the current stage of bitcoin development, a single body aspiring to do what the UABB is doing would gather too much influence too quickly. Especially when the market isn't large enough to support another accreditation body to act as a counter check. The structure of the organisation is also worrying since it reflects the mentality and ambitions of the person behind it.

Damn valid point! (not tongue-in-cheek) Thank you for this excellent insight.

[kookiekrak]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33630.msg424469#msg424469

oh shit he's bitmole? that explains some of it...


kid acted like a 13 year old in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28004.0

no wonder no one likes him.

edit: evidence of douchery
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28004.msg355566#msg355566
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28004.msg356303#msg356303
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28004.msg356483#msg356483

[kookiekrak]

I'll assume you're directly your comment toward Matthew with UABB and not the OP (me, Phinnaeus Gage, Bruno, or whatever my name is this week).

I just read the post you provided: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33478.msg418895#msg418895 Maybe hypercritical, maybe not. Either way, the advise he provided sounded sound to me. Spearheading donations could of been a no-no. I missed that post. No need to provide it for I'll take your word on it that he did unless shown otherwise. A slower adaptation could have been a wiser choice.

I want to thank you too, kookiekrak for your comments and insight.

Here's him asking for donations to fund the investigation: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=26224.msg421382#msg421382

Just in case you guys didn't already read it, it seemed pertinent to add it here as well.

The UABB is spearheading a legal and unbiased investigation into MyBitcoin.com but needs your support. Discussion about MyBitcoin.com is very healthy for the sharing of ideas and suggestions on how to tackle this very serious and difficult problem, but nothing will be done about it through forum posts.


Please start contributing to the actual investigation by adding your affidavit, attaching evidence of funds lost, and contributing to the fund to pay for international investigators. Thank you.


http://uabci.org/redmine/projects/mbci

[/size]

Here's him backtracking and claiming that they don't ask for donations: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33761.msg423776#msg423776

The UABB is a not-for-profit organization to promote safe, honest and secure transactions between consumers and merchants, provide a proper method of consumer complaints, as well as optional escrow and dispute resolution services.

The investigationattempt to gather information to help lead to an investigation by the UABB does not require, ask for, nor allow donations at this point and will hopefully never need to. It is merely a campaign to find the truth of the MyBitcoin situation. Ordinarily it is not in the boundaries of the UABB to do such a thing unless MyBitcoin had been an accredited member. It is being treated as a special case due to the high public interest and the relevance to both consumers and business owners across the Bitcoin community.

It is already a failing attempt however, as the previously vocal victims of MyBitcoin have signed up to participate in the project, but have provided absolutely no data of any kind to date. If things move on in this direction much longer, the UABB will cancel its efforts and let the community once again handle it in its own unorganized way.

Matthew N. Wright

Heres where he claims that they'll never request donations unless needed because they can pay expenses on their own. Except he solicited donations earlier without any expenses yet...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=26224.msg423078#msg423078

Not a lawyer. Participating in this purely for personal curiosity. I work with the Korean government in academic fraud investigations primarily, but do not bring that to the table. I am a CS major who has owned an international college prep school in South Korea for over 3 years. I am involved in Bitcoin because it is a reasonable choice for a hobby for the next 10 years. I am not a politician nor am I lawyer, but we will be hiring one when the time comes. Discussions can be done on the forums of course, but resource gathering for investigations can be hard to organize and gets easily cluttered if left to forums only, thus a project management section has been created for the specific purpose.

I do not give guarantees and therefor need no guarantors. Although it appears that I am asking for donations, that was just a very small side note and in other forums (as well as at the link given) I have attempted to make it very clear that donations will never be asked for unless the occasion specifically calls for it, and we are unable to handle the expenses on our own (the UABB that is).

mybad for the quote spam.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

don't know him, but his posts are very similar to a confidence trickster.

some things that have bothered me:
trying to launch a brand, anyone with a business brain knows you don't launch incomplete products and services.
trying to do too many "large" scale projects at once, no one can successfully launch multiple different businesses at the same time.
everything seems to have an alternate motive.
no idea how big business is done.. (ie. purchasing 100+ gpus.. you go to the source and make the manufacturers tender for your business).
to eager to list accomplishments.
has no idea how the legal system works, case in point would be mybitcoin investigation.
wants to be the official bitcoin spokesperson and representative.

If he has the resources, why does he do all the work ? and why are the websites incomplete?

Oh and lastly.. why doesn't he just spend us$10 million.. im sure he has way more.. buy out mtgox.com, tradehill.com and purchase the rights for bitcoin.org ... Or better yet, buy the trademark and IP of bitcoin, and sue everyone.

If you were trying to change my opinion on this matter with this post, you're doing a fine good job. The only problem I've read was the launching prematurely aspect that bothered you. Granted, it could have been further along, but a website doesn't have to be 100% perfect before launch. I'll let Matthew address your other points.

I want to thank you, xcooling, for your fine comments.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I'll assume you're directly your comment toward Matthew with UABB and not the OP (me, Phinnaeus Gage, Bruno, or whatever my name is this week).

I just read the post you provided: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33478.msg418895#msg418895 Maybe hypercritical, maybe not. Either way, the advise he provided sounded sound to me. Spearheading donations could of been a no-no. I missed that post. No need to provide it for I'll take your word on it that he did unless shown otherwise. A slower adaptation could have been a wiser choice.

I want to thank you too, kookiekrak for your comments and insight.

Here's him asking for donations to fund the investigation: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=26224.msg421382#msg421382

Just in case you guys didn't already read it, it seemed pertinent to add it here as well.

The UABB is spearheading a legal and unbiased investigation into MyBitcoin.com but needs your support. Discussion about MyBitcoin.com is very healthy for the sharing of ideas and suggestions on how to tackle this very serious and difficult problem, but nothing will be done about it through forum posts.


Please start contributing to the actual investigation by adding your affidavit, attaching evidence of funds lost, and contributing to the fund to pay for international investigators. Thank you.


http://uabci.org/redmine/projects/mbci

[/size]

Here's him backtracking and claiming that they don't ask for donations: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33761.msg423776#msg423776

The UABB is a not-for-profit organization to promote safe, honest and secure transactions between consumers and merchants, provide a proper method of consumer complaints, as well as optional escrow and dispute resolution services.

The investigationattempt to gather information to help lead to an investigation by the UABB does not require, ask for, nor allow donations at this point and will hopefully never need to. It is merely a campaign to find the truth of the MyBitcoin situation. Ordinarily it is not in the boundaries of the UABB to do such a thing unless MyBitcoin had been an accredited member. It is being treated as a special case due to the high public interest and the relevance to both consumers and business owners across the Bitcoin community.

It is already a failing attempt however, as the previously vocal victims of MyBitcoin have signed up to participate in the project, but have provided absolutely no data of any kind to date. If things move on in this direction much longer, the UABB will cancel its efforts and let the community once again handle it in its own unorganized way.

Matthew N. Wright

Thank you for this post and the previous post (#74). Noted.

[AllYourBase]

I like the concept of certification businesses, and I think if someone's looking for assurances outside of some governmental monopoly system, that's a good option.  

Xephan made some very cogent points.  I'd like to add that I would definitely envision certified and non-certified products side by side.  In some cases, I'd be willing to spend the little bit extra, particularly for something risky, like for instance pills or other ingestibles.  If a certification business is to succeed, however, it must provide consistent assurances.  This means the metric used to measure a given company's performance is critical.  This is were many governmental certification schemes have failed.  Case in point American health departments.

So far, I'm leaning towards dislike of UABB.  I read a post from Matthew to the effect of "don't worry about the mybitcoin thing, we're looking into it."  That's both insulting and foolish in my view.  You want your customers to use their judgement, and decide that your conclusions are congruous with their own.  

[kookiekrak]

don't know him, but his posts are very similar to a confidence trickster.

some things that have bothered me:
trying to launch a brand, anyone with a business brain knows you don't launch incomplete products and services.
trying to do too many "large" scale projects at once, no one can successfully launch multiple different businesses at the same time.
everything seems to have an alternate motive.
no idea how big business is done.. (ie. purchasing 100+ gpus.. you go to the source and make the manufacturers tender for your business).
to eager to list accomplishments.
has no idea how the legal system works, case in point would be mybitcoin investigation.
wants to be the official bitcoin spokesperson and representative.

If he has the resources, why does he do all the work ? and why are the websites incomplete?

Oh and lastly.. why doesn't he just spend us$10 million.. im sure he has way more.. buy out mtgox.com, tradehill.com and purchase the rights for bitcoin.org ... Or better yet, buy the trademark and IP of bitcoin, and sue everyone.

if you refer to when he was using the account bitmole, he had less than 1btc in his wallet. no idea where he managed to get the 10 million to solicit buying agents etc.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I like the concept of certification businesses, and I think if someone's looking for assurances outside of some governmental monopoly system, that's a good option.  

Xephan made some very cogent points.  I'd like to add that I would definitely envision certified and non-certified products side by side.  In some cases, I'd be willing to spend the little bit extra, particularly for something risky, like for instance pills or other ingestibles.  If a certification business is to succeed, however, it must provide consistent assurances.  This means the metric used to measure a given company's performance is critical.  This is were many governmental certification schemes have failed.  Case in point American health departments.

So far, I'm leaning towards dislike of UABB.  I read a post from Matthew to the effect of "don't worry about the mybitcoin thing, we're looking into it."  That's both insulting and foolish in my view.  You want your customers to use their judgement, and decide that your conclusions are congruous with their own.  

Thank you kindly for your valuable input, AllYourBase. Noted!

[BillX]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=33630.msg424469#msg424469

oh shit he's bitmole? that explains some of it...


kid acted like a 13 year old in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28004.0

no wonder no one likes him.

edit: evidence of douchery
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28004.msg355566#msg355566
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28004.msg356303#msg356303
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28004.msg356483#msg356483

WOW! Thank you, I never read that before. He is a douche! Nothing but apologies and excuses as to why couldnt pay someone 1 measly little bitcoin for artwork. This just reaffirms my original gut feeling that he is a walking, talking pile of pig droppings.

[quattro]

bad for bitcoin

[ctoon6]

what is UABB?

edit:
http://uabb.org/
The UABB is dedicated to building a more trustworthy Bitcoin marketplace through maintaining standards for truthful advertising, investigating and exposing fraud against consumers and businesses and providing information to consumers before they purchase products and services with Bitcoin.

my response, don't read it if you dont care for my opinion, as it may be rather crude.

the uabb has no trust, and anyone who thinks they can trust any central authority with YOUR money needs their head examined. everyone is quick to set up centralization for bitcoin, but NOBODY has given a single thought to making secure devices (they simply export signed transactions) for bitcoin. i ask WHY the fuck should we trust these guys. where the hell do they get their authority to set this up.

in short i advise everyone to store their coins on their flash drives (please use at least 3 drives if you have a lot of coins). please also store at least 1 in a safe deposit box at your local bank. ENCRYPT the usb key at the bank because they can still be drilled. http://www.truecrypt.org/ is a good thing to use for this purpose.