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Author Topic: [Dispute resolved and sunshine and beams and all that]  (Read 8661 times)
KeyserSoze
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July 11, 2011, 11:37:35 PM
 #1

[Dispute resolved and sunshine and beams and all that]

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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July 12, 2011, 12:02:48 AM
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Have you PM'd him about this thread? It'd be great to hear the other side before we mark the account as a scammer over 1 BTC.

KeyserSoze
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July 12, 2011, 12:41:35 AM
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Have you PM'd him about this thread? It'd be great to hear the other side before we mark the account as a scammer over 1 BTC.

No I have not PMed him. I gave him a few days before posting.

Not sure what good it would do me to bother letting him know. He's well aware he owes me, agreed to pay on delivery and now tells me I need to wait until he gets around to it (if indeed he ever does). He lied when he requested service to be paid on delivery when he never had BTC to begin with. He lied when he asked me to wait claiming his BTC "was on another machine" - he never had any. Now he's telling me that 1BTC really isn't worth much so it can't be affecting me to have wait until he feels like getting around to paying. This is him beginning to convince himself he doesn't ever have to pay (if he ever really intended to pay at all).

I'll agree 1BTC isn't much and obviously the point is no longer about the payment itself. I have no recourse but to let the forum know Bitmole scammed me.

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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July 12, 2011, 07:08:18 PM
 #4

I hereby retract my original offer, regardless of my original intentions to work through a current issue to make payment. Have fun with your expensive thread.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Good luck getting people to play your game now.

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July 12, 2011, 09:05:07 PM
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the one where I said I take making that agreement very seriously and will do everything I can to get it to you ASAP, also appologizing for my own ignorance in having trusted a third party to have sent me BTC in order to remmit to you?

When you take an agreement seriously that means you live up to it. You didn't fulfill your end and so by definition you didn't take it seriously, which has now created another lie on your part. You also did not by any means "do everything I can to get it to you asap" because there exists an exchange where one can simply buy 1BTC and send it to someone else. Yet another lie. SO many... is that 4? I've lost count.

What ever happened to exhausting all means of communication before jumping to conclusions of a scam? Since when is a casual offer with no agreed payment timeline deemed a scam if any kind of delay arrises?  Do you always cease communications and run to commit libel behind a client's back when there are any delays in recieving payment from the client?

I gave you a few days after delivery then asked when you intended to pay, since "a wee bit" was turning into "days". You told me to simply wait. Whether you feel inclined to believe it or not, that's not how business works. Since that was contrary to our agreement of "payment on completion" I decided to wait another few days to see if you'd pay and then let the community know what you were up to.

There was a timeline. Payment on completion. Libel implies I'm not being honest. I'm simply telling the community the truth about our agreement. If you pay I will also tell them that. The merit of your character is totally in your hands. In addition you'll make me look like a fool if you pay, like a whining baby that was wrong about you. All of this is within your control. And yes whenever anyone in my industry runs into a no-pay (or even slow-pay) client we tell each other so none of us does business with that person again, or is at least aware of what we're dealing with.

Despite your self absorbed claims of $80/hour as being a reason to not work on this project any harder than you did, you sir, are not a professional. You have much to learn about dealing with clients. Here's a lesson that only cost you 1BTC: if a client has complications in paying but continues to move towards payment, starting a thread on a forum without either giving them a deadline or even mentioning the thread will ultimately result in losing that client.

I apologize. You are correct that I am self-absorbed. It's a flaw of mine.

In this case, after you came back for changes to the art, I was trying to let you know that my rate is normally $85/hr so for your 1BTC (@$12) payment I wouldn't be able to put endless hours into changes to the art. I was basically taking the job at a loss so I could experiment with providing my service for BTC to see if it was something viable for my company.

While you are correct that I have more learning to do, at the same time I've been providing web development services since 1995 and have learned a thing or two, such as when to cut one's losses. I didn't lose a client so much as experimented with BTC and got scammed for $12 - not much risk to have had the experience I was looking for and was pretty much assuming would happen. The lesson you feel you've taught me is really only serving to make you comfortable with your own theft. In "the real world" of course I don't start a project without a deposit, and it ain't for $12.

After the week of non-payment I decided I was done with my experiment. BTC is about privacy for some and immediacy for others. I give you a quick turnaround on a project, so I expect quick turnaround on payment (however long the BTC takes to process). I'm not going to sit around and wait for you to pay when you're good and ready. We had an agreement, you broke it.

What "move toward payment" was there? I didn't see any. All I saw was a request to just wait and you'd eventually pay. Seriously, you've heard of Mt Gox? Or TradeHill? Or you could have tried to contact someone on the forum for a personal transaction and pointed me to the thread so I could see you were actually making effort?

I hereby retract my original offer, regardless of my original intentions to work through a current issue to make payment. Have fun with your expensive thread.

And so it comes to the conclusion it always does with scammers and/or folks that just don't enjoy a concept of right and wrong. You stole fizzy lifting drinks, and now the ceiling has to be washed and scrubbed so you get NOTHING... wait, that was Willy Wonka. What I meant to say was you either never intended to pay, or can't/won't/don't come up with the money to fulfill your end of the agreement then find a way to be offended enough to not pay at all. It's no different from stealing material goods.

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
KeyserSoze
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July 12, 2011, 09:29:09 PM
 #6

And what way does it work exactly? I pay him 1BTC now and he deletes the 2 threads he started? Doesn't work that way either oh? Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm not worried about how a bad experience between an unprofessional designer and his slanderous posts will affect a game that is already well liked.

I don't have any intention of hurting your business. I don't even know what game you're talking about. I thought you were going to start a bitcoin-related business in Korea which of course I would have no effect on. Not my intention. My only intention is to let the community know about your theft of my service. I think anyone who cares to know (which has got to be miniscule) does know now and probably most won't give a flying hoot. However it was my only recourse once I determined I wouldn't receive payment.

Once you pay for those services I'm happy to post that you paid, and to post what an ingrate and louse I am for assuming you could be anything other than saintly, but we all know that ain't happening. So at this point it remains that you are a thief. If that somehow has an impact on your game there's really only you to blame, though of course its not my intention that anyone would draw a parallel between your actions and your game or web site or whatever other business you may have.


No matter how much I apologize (which I've already done) or how much bitcoin I were to send him now, the damage is already done. He's now making false claims about my intentions as if they were fact, and to be absolutely honest, it's laughable. Anyone with half a brain will read his drivel and although in the beginning they may think to themselves "Oh my, Bitmole didn't pay!", by the end of it they're going to ask "Wait a minute... so this guy never even contacted bitmole again and went straight to the forums instead? wtf...".

Yeah... Sorry if I'm coming across unapologetic, but he's already burnt that bridge. ^_^

Is it drivel? *sigh* I was hoping I was coming across in an exciting literary fashion.
No one will ever know your intentions. Personally I think in the beginning maybe some part of you was hoping to pay. Your previous posts in the forum seem likable enough to me. But I wonder if when I asked for 1BTC instead of your offered .01BTC (yes you were so interested in fairness that you offered 12 cents for the project) I think it maybe slowly morphed into just not getting around to paying, and then, oh well, what's he gonna do if I NEVER pay?

But no one will know aside from you what your original intentions were. Thankfully in the end it doesn't matter. Bitmole thieved services from me.

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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July 12, 2011, 10:10:53 PM
 #7

This is an extremely difficult position for me as a Bitcoin applications developer and business owner. You see, Korea doesn't yet have a trade market for BTC yet and that has been a major complication for me in obtaining bitcoin in this country. I may be an American, but that doesn't mean I keep relations in America, or even a bank account there, so utilizing tradehill or Mtgox is not as easy as you might think.

Your assumptions about me have been completely wrong and flat out insulting. You peg me, the person is who is founding the movement to make BTC a common currency across Korea as being a thief. How is that not problematic for both of us? You're attempting to damage my reputation out of your lack of understanding OR interest in the situation at hand.

This IS all my fault though, not yours. Not yours for trusting that a user on a forum you've never met would pay you, but for me in EVER expecting that any users in this forum would ever have the slightest bit of professionalism in delivering their services and dealing with clients in the event there was a misunderstanding or complication.

You see, I, moreso than you, took a great risk in making an agreement with you because I basically gave you the power to run your mouth like a child about what didn't work out for you. Big mistake on my part, I agree. It will certainly never happen again.

My wallet right now is about 0.1BTC for the moment. I have no intention of using your artwork. I had until this morning had all the intentions in the world of handing over 1.0BTC once it accumulated as such (keep in mind my PSU blew up a few days ago and I was waiting until after the weekend to go get an 800W for cheap). But when I say you've burnt bridges, what I mean is that this entire lawless, open transaction is based on two individual's agreeing on specific terms and carrying them out, and you have taken away my ability to carry them out.

I have no defense for my failure to pay 'on time' as you put it, and if I were in your shoes, I'd be pretty upset too, especially if (as most people are these days) I was in any way relying on that payment in order to perform some kind of act or duty elsewhere. The problem is, I made the same mistake you did by counting on an egg that didn't hatch. I was never paid the BTC that I had been promised before making that offer. THAT is my mistake. That mistake won't happen again.

What you NEED to do, is to post a thread giving the details of our transaction. I will even sign the thread with my PGP key and agree that I was unable to come up with payment on time.

What you NEEDN'T do, is make claims to things you not only do not know, but could not know. Not only does it damage your reputation as a professional designer, but it degrades the entire market for which we do business.

To recap,

You are right that I didn't deliver. I've never denied that.

You are wrong for thinking I am a thief, scumbag, liar, etc etc etc. You're just butthurt and jumping to conclusions with your hands successfully placed over your ears, as I've come to learn is typical with newbies on this board.

You are owed 1BTC for a service of providing a private image to me.

You delivered the service, but I was unable to provide the pay in a time frame you decided on in your mind and without discussing with me, or even negotiating, become judge, jury and executioner.

Here's where the situation is not so clear for me, and I'd welcome some advice on how to handle from anyone else with experience working with people like you.

I feel in my heart that I owe you 1 BTC (and have been working to make that a reality, despite any personal complications), yet, you posted the link to MY product on your thread instructing everyone to "abuse BitMole's logo" (not a logo btw, a VERY small part of a much bigger page and thus, not originally worth 1BTC to me).

Given these facts, is there any reason you still deserve 1 BTC? Would me remitting 1 BTC to you solve anything from this point? I'm truly baffled.

If I send 1 BTC, basically I still get SOMETHING obviously, but not the product in which I had originally asked, nor in the manner I asked it (a private, custom image).

You get 1 BTC as a reward for your embarrassingly unprofessional attitude and lack of client relation skills, the existence of which are clearly based on previously existing bias towards doing business online (which explains your lack of patience more than anything I could have done to offend).

This obvious bias can be seen in multiple posts, but most notably:

But no one will know aside from you what your original intentions were. Thankfully in the end it doesn't matter. Bitmole thieved services from me.

It's almost as if you have been validated that you were 'thieved' from, so that you can go on living as if you were right about the 'evil scammers out to get you'.

How do I win here? Is me having a BTC related financial situation supposed to black ball me for the rest of my life in your eyes?

No. I think you mucked this up on your own. I think whatever wrongdoing I had done, albeit it does look pretty bad on my part, will never live up to how horribly you screwed this up for yourself.

On another note, considering I have already admitted to having made a mistake asking for a service before absolutely guaranteeing the funds were there first (a stupid and risky mistake, the kind people make when they expect to get a paycheck and go out and buy a TV), I hereby resign any intentions to ever buy or sell any services directly to any members of the bitcoin.org forum. Again, I'll even PGP sign your thread (so long as it's not full of ridiculously misleading and slanderous garbage).

That's as cordial as I'm going to be able to get with you right now. Balls in your court.

None of this changes the essential fact that you agreed to make a payment, then did not, and then stated that you would not do so. I doubt that anyone on this forum will do business with you after reading this thread in its entirety.

15UFyv6kfWgq83Pp3yhXPr8rknv9m6581W
KeyserSoze
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July 12, 2011, 10:52:13 PM
 #8

This is an extremely difficult position for me

Ayep, it is. That sting you're feeling is pride. "That's pride f*cking with you. F*ck pride. Pride only hurts. It never helps. You fight through that sh!t."

You don't want to admit you stole services -- maintaining face is very important. I get it. And so you don't know how to get out of the mess you created. It's very simple.

You don't have to actually admit stealing anything. You pay me 1BTC and I have to go back to all these threads and admit that I was wrong about you, that I spouted off at the mouth about you never intending to pay when in reality you were simply a slow-paying customer instead of a no-paying customer. It'll all be my fault. You save face and I look like a heel. I'll probably have to fend off a bunch of forum attacks from people coming to your defense. I mean how could I have been so callous?

And the art itself? Use it or not. I didn't create the problem, you did. You weren't paying me for a file, you were paying me for my service, my time, my skill. The representation of those things -- the end result -- was a file. I still used my time and skill for you. Anyway, what does it really mean that I posted the link to the art? The day you put your web site up anybody could go grab the image anyway and use it however they want, just as you grabbed the coin and a pic of a mole to make your avatar. Having a link to the art means nothing - I just wanted your attention. Twitter, Facebook and YouTube have links to their logos, and now Bitmole joins their rank!

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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July 12, 2011, 11:16:18 PM
 #9

KeyserSoze: How long did you wait before putting this on the forum? I agree it's not good that you weren't paid immediately upon completion of the work, however it seems to me that you did not exhaust all possibilities before making this public?

When BitMole was unable to make the payment as promised, did you try to negotiate a new dead line of the payment? Sometimes unforeseen events do happen.
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July 12, 2011, 11:36:19 PM
 #10

Wow! If I agree to pay you X for a service or good I will have X at my disposal before entering into the agreement.

I am in process of losing a "friend" who after 4 years of polite prodding now claims he does not remember our original agreement. He got the goods, I got nothing more than the promise.

Some people are not worth the air that forms their words that sound like promises to pay.

Feel like investing in a Miner?:
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July 12, 2011, 11:53:17 PM
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Wow! If I agree to pay you X for a service or good I will have X at my disposal before entering into the agreement.

I am in process of losing a "friend" who after 4 years of polite prodding now claims he does not remember our original agreement. He got the goods, I got nothing more than the promise.

Some people are not worth the air that forms their words that sound like promises to pay.

You're not familiar with the concept of credit, are you?

My concept of credit is that it has to be paid back. Heretical I know.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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July 13, 2011, 12:37:07 AM
 #12

Wow! If I agree to pay you X for a service or good I will have X at my disposal before entering into the agreement.

I am in process of losing a "friend" who after 4 years of polite prodding now claims he does not remember our original agreement. He got the goods, I got nothing more than the promise.

Some people are not worth the air that forms their words that sound like promises to pay.

I have a person that made me a monetary promise 21 years ago. He never went through with it. I am sure he's forgotten all about it now. I am toying with the idea of visiting him and demanding my money. In fact we made a bet, and he lost it, and promptly when he lost he said. "Hah, I never promised you WHEN I will pay you". I never forgot that. Lol. Sometime, somewhere I will meet him again, and I will tell him, do you remember when..
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July 13, 2011, 12:53:24 AM
 #13

Probably shouldnt have used bitcoin for this transaction but ripplepay.

bitcoin!=credit which is where ripple comes in.
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July 13, 2011, 01:01:13 AM
 #14

I'd soon rather pay a complete stranger 10 BTC before I ever paid him 0.01BTC now.

As a complete stranger, I'll accept your offer.  You can send the 10 BTC to 1BowSerbsenLBELbwR5aZE1aqy7ooGCydT

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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July 13, 2011, 01:07:07 AM
 #15

Probably shouldnt have used bitcoin for this transaction but ripplepay.

bitcoin!=credit which is where ripple comes in.

That is a neat idea, however I find the current implementation missing. :/ Maybe it can be decentralized like TorChat/F2F networks.

@Scammer a.k.a BitMole: Chill off, please. You paid for a 14 buck job. You got a 14 buck art and service. Normally you would pay up front as KeyserSoze pointed out.
The only thing you must do, rather than talk around it, is to pay. It wouldn't be beneficial at all to continue this showoff.
Also, as a complete stranger I also have an address.

@KeyserSoze: Hey, I hope this won't turn you around and make you refuse Bitcoin payment. My advice would be to do as any other payment method, ask up front, and insure you are not getting screwed. So just act as if you are getting cash from an unkown person. Good luck with your company. Smiley

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July 13, 2011, 01:28:03 AM
 #16

Damn. I was interested in BitFu... deposited 1 BTC and all. Not anymore. Not supporting you, BitMole.

I've withdrawn that 1 BTC, and given it to KeyserSoze. You deserve it more than BitMole does.

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July 13, 2011, 01:58:15 AM
 #17

Wow! If I agree to pay you X for a service or good I will have X at my disposal before entering into the agreement.

I am in process of losing a "friend" who after 4 years of polite prodding now claims he does not remember our original agreement. He got the goods, I got nothing more than the promise.

Some people are not worth the air that forms their words that sound like promises to pay.

You're not familiar with the concept of credit, are you?

Obviously I am a lot more familiar with the concept of credit that you are. If I were to extend you credit we would have a formal legal contract and you would have to put up collateral, which I would sieze in a heartbeat when (obviously not if) you break the terms of the contract.

Here you made a simple promise to pay as you received a service. You recieved the service and decided not to pay.

That makes you both a liar and a thief.

Your protestations that 1) you might have paid if he did not call you out in public and 2) the service was not worth the 1btc adds the label SCUMBAG EXTRODINAIRE to your resume!

Have a good day.

Feel like investing in a Miner?:
http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=30044.msg377773#msg377773
A soup to nuts newbee system for a secure, portable USB wallet (free instructions):
NoobHowTo: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=27088.msg341387#msg341387
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July 13, 2011, 03:19:30 AM
 #18

KeyserSoze: How long did you wait before putting this on the forum? I agree it's not good that you weren't paid immediately upon completion of the work, however it seems to me that you did not exhaust all possibilities before making this public?

When BitMole was unable to make the payment as promised, did you try to negotiate a new dead line of the payment? Sometimes unforeseen events do happen.

I hear what you're saying. It's all in the thread. It isn't necessarily that I didn't get paid immediately. It's that when I wasn't paid immediately I realized he had been lying about a couple things but I waited a few more days. Why waste time renegotiating with someone who didn't fulfill the first negotiation?

Even if he had originally intended to pay he was going to, given enough time and indignation, convince himself he didn't have to pay. That's the way this scam works. @5 days after I delivered I decided to cut my losses and post to the forum. Then he publicly declared indeed he wouldn't ever pay. So we've established he stole the service.

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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July 13, 2011, 03:28:19 AM
 #19

My concept of credit is that it has to be paid back. Heretical I know.

...and credit is normally paired with interest... and an an agreement that it is a credit situation one is entering into. Bitmole's "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" attitude is endearing though, just like Wimpy from the Popeye cartoons.

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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July 13, 2011, 03:42:45 AM
 #20

@KeyserSoze: Hey, I hope this won't turn you around and make you refuse Bitcoin payment. My advice would be to do as any other payment method, ask up front, and insure you are not getting screwed. So just act as if you are getting cash from an unkown person. Good luck with your company. Smiley

At this point I think I would probably still consider service for Bitcoin. I mean I was completely aware of my compromised position by providing service without a deposit or escrow agreement. Was just getting my feet wet and got bit.

I used to day trade Bitcoin successfully. Then I took an arrow to the knee.
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