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Author Topic: Enough about the online wallets == part 2  (Read 3437 times)
the founder
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August 06, 2011, 03:57:22 PM
 #1

Ok I had to reply to one of the threads,  but this deserves it's own topic,  for good reason.

Everyone is concerned about security...  and they are blaming e-wallets... even though a month ago one of the forum users had 25,000 bitcoins vanish from his client....  there were several posts referencing a "bitcoin gobbler" that was stealing bitcoins from people's desktops as it appears to infect the standard client.

When an individual asked "so how do I access my bitcoins from another location"  the reply was "SSH into your machine... then do X and do Y and do Z"  of course.. because grandma knows how to SSH.

the problem with the online currency is that it was built by us individuals familiar with the process.   Grandma can't invest $300,000 of her 6 million dollar inheritance in bitcoins because she doesn't know what a wallet.dat is,  she doesn't understand how to send money to an address that stretches across the screen, and she's NOT going to SSH into anything.    She's not even going to understand what peer to peer is.   Websites just magically appear to her with no understanding of how it works.

But she could increase the price of bitcoins and make them far more valid of a currency by depositing $300,000 USD into bitcoins.    She might even use them to buy something from an ecommerce site that accepts bitcoins,  or she may also have a meal at Meze Grill in New York,  if she could figure how to pay them in bitcoins.    Asking her to lug her laptop in and send to a huge address isn't going to help matters.

She knows how to login to her banks website,  she's wondering why she can't login to her bitcoin account.

The problem is that there are 2 types of people in this world.

1 -  technically smart,  with limited funds.
2 -  much richer,  but not technically smart.

Our problem is that virtually everyone is in this forum is 1 ....  most of us here are not 2.

But we NEED #2 in order to grow bitcoins as a community.

type 2 people won't install the standard bitcoin client on their desktop... period.   Much less SSH to that client from a remote machine.

So the end result is that ewallets are needed...   in fact ewallets will be the vast majority of bitcoin transfers in the future,  they will as whole most likely will be the defacto way of paying people within the next few years.... IF WE MAKE IT the next few years.

the problem is security,  (on your desktop and in the cloud)  and making it easier to use and understand for grandma...   the only valid solution to that is an ewallet....  

Even if you make the easiest to use client on earth,  you're still going to have to ask grandma to install it from IE: 6 ... because IE : 6 came with her computer....  see my point.

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August 06, 2011, 03:59:42 PM
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Well said!
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August 06, 2011, 04:00:29 PM
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Agreed. Can't wait for Flexcoin to come out of Beta, Roger!
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August 06, 2011, 04:11:50 PM
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If e-wallets are the future, and i think they are if Bitcoin is to succeed, then regulation will be required. But you libertards don't want this - instead, thinking that some web of trust will be enough to sel-regulate. Look
where that got everyone.


Ok I had to reply to one of the threads,  but this deserves it's own topic,  for good reason.

Everyone is concerned about security...  and they are blaming e-wallets... even though a month ago one of the forum users had 25,000 bitcoins vanish from his client....  there were several posts referencing a "bitcoin gobbler" that was stealing bitcoins from people's desktops as it appears to infect the standard client.

When an individual asked "so how do I access my bitcoins from another location"  the reply was "SSH into your machine... then do X and do Y and do Z"  of course.. because grandma knows how to SSH.

the problem with the online currency is that it was built by us individuals familiar with the process.   Grandma can't invest $300,000 of her 6 million dollar inheritance in bitcoins because she doesn't know what a wallet.dat is,  she doesn't understand how to send money to an address that stretches across the screen, and she's NOT going to SSH into anything.    She's not even going to understand what peer to peer is.   Websites just magically appear to her with no understanding of how it works.

But she could increase the price of bitcoins and make them far more valid of a currency by depositing $300,000 USD into bitcoins.    She might even use them to buy something from an ecommerce site that accepts bitcoins,  or she may also have a meal at Meze Grill in New York,  if she could figure how to pay them in bitcoins.    Asking her to lug her laptop in and send to a huge address isn't going to help matters.

She knows how to login to her banks website,  she's wondering why she can't login to her bitcoin account.

The problem is that there are 2 types of people in this world.

1 -  technically smart,  with limited funds.
2 -  much richer,  but not technically smart.

Our problem is that virtually everyone is in this forum is 1 ....  most of us here are not 2.

But we NEED #2 in order to grow bitcoins as a community.

type 2 people won't install the standard bitcoin client on their desktop... period.   Much less SSH to that client from a remote machine.

So the end result is that ewallets are needed...   in fact ewallets will be the vast majority of bitcoin transfers in the future,  they will as whole most likely will be the defacto way of paying people within the next few years.... IF WE MAKE IT the next few years.

the problem is security,  (on your desktop and in the cloud)  and making it easier to use and understand for grandma...   the only valid solution to that is an ewallet....  

Even if you make the easiest to use client on earth,  you're still going to have to ask grandma to install it from IE: 6 ... because IE : 6 came with her computer....  see my point.


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August 06, 2011, 04:12:35 PM
 #5

Maybe the title should be "Not enough about online wallets...", since the upshot seems to be we need to solve the problem of making sure grandma's bitcoins will be safe even if she uploads them to an online wallet service instead of entrusting them to a bonded executor who will use secured systems to secure her bitcoins for her and pay her tab at the grill regularly for her and suchlike chores.

Would such an executor be any different if such an executor used a website to receive gramma's instructions as to what to do with her bitcoins? Hmm this question seems to come down to how insecure is an online wallet's confirmation of gramma's identity and rightness of mind and secureness of keyboard and mouse channels compared to the confirmations such an executor would use? (Would such an executor even consider trusting some possibly hacked keyboard and mouse, or would they insist on a "verbal turing test with voice stress analysis" channel?)

How do we go about "bonding" an online wallet executor, and for how many aggregate bitcoins and fiat can we bond them per bitcoin or fiat of potential profit we'd have to take out of their operation in order to be able to execute the "bonding" (aka in order to bail out those bonded wallet services' customers that screw up / those bonded wallet services that screw up)?

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August 06, 2011, 04:14:20 PM
 #6

in fact ewallets will be the vast majority of bitcoin transfers in the future

No, but mobiles with NFC secure elements will be. Carried just like cash, but even more secure. And yes, in a few years even grandma is going to be using what's today called a "smartphone".

(I won't answer protests from anyone not having at least researched what the [NFC] secure element spec is ;)

There's no reason, even for online wallets, to require my private keys.
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August 06, 2011, 04:18:50 PM
 #7

Ok I had to reply to one of the threads,  but this deserves it's own topic,  for good reason.

Everyone is concerned about security...  and they are blaming e-wallets... even though a month ago one of the forum users had 25,000 bitcoins vanish from his client....  there were several posts referencing a "bitcoin gobbler" that was stealing bitcoins from people's desktops as it appears to infect the standard client.
Bitomat, how many people scammed?
Mybitcoin, how many people scammed?

When an individual asked "so how do I access my bitcoins from another location"  the reply was "SSH into your machine... then do X and do Y and do Z"  of course.. because grandma knows how to SSH.
You really think grandma knows how to use bitcoins currently?


You, flexcoin, can be honest that's not the point
The fact is people MUST think before use an ewallet: who is he runner, where is he, how can I contact him, etc
When stupid naive people put their money in ewallets and lost it, what is guilty for everybody outside this forum? Bitcoin!
It's like MtGox hack: "BITCOIN HAZ BEEN BROKEN!"

That's why scammed people are attacked: because of them, people see Bitcoin as insecure whereas there's nothing to do with it
So, either grandma asks her grandchildren, or she just doesn't complain if something bad happens...

Own address: 19QkqAza7BHFTuoz9N8UQkryP4E9jHo4N3 - Pywallet support: 1AQDfx22pKGgXnUZFL1e4UKos3QqvRzNh5 - Bitcointalk++ script support: 1Pxeccscj1ygseTdSV1qUqQCanp2B2NMM2
Pywallet: instructions. Encrypted wallet support, export/import keys/addresses, backup wallets, export/import CSV data from/into wallet, merge wallets, delete/import addresses and transactions, recover altcoins sent to bitcoin addresses, sign/verify messages and files with Bitcoin addresses, recover deleted wallets, etc.
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August 06, 2011, 07:29:59 PM
 #8

Not to put you down, personally, Flexcoin, but e-wallets will never be the method of choice for wallet security, especially since this event occurred with mybitcoin. It's just the fact that trust is required and some people do not wish to have "trust" as an element in their financial security.

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Because Bitrebel says things that some people do not want YOU to hear.
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August 06, 2011, 07:38:55 PM
 #9

I am not really clear on why grandma wants to put $300,000 into bitcoins in the first place, really.

If it is to purchase a house or something maybe she might be able to convince the real-estate agent to accept dollars instead of bitcoin, purely as an exception just for her of course being as how she somehow fails to grasp exactly how to give the poor chap bitcoins instead.

It might be better to target fund managers who manage many many gramma's $300,000 investment portfolios or something, as if those chaps are too handicapped to manage to run a wallet they probably should be fired.

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August 06, 2011, 07:41:05 PM
 #10

If e-wallets are the future, and i think they are if Bitcoin is to succeed, then regulation will be required. But you libertards don't want this - instead, thinking that some web of trust will be enough to sel-regulate. Look
where that got everyone.

But how would   you regulate this? UABB?

I'm not a libertard but what you are requesting is almost impossible.

Listen Radio Libre (Electronica) Donate. (click for details).

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August 06, 2011, 08:16:54 PM
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If e-wallets are the future, and i think they are if Bitcoin is to succeed, then regulation will be required. But you libertards don't want this - instead, thinking that some web of trust will be enough to sel-regulate. Look
where that got everyone.

But how would   you regulate this? UABB?

I'm not a libertard but what you are requesting is almost impossible.

Not impossible at all. Shinobi will decide how Bitcoin is "regulated" and then his gunmen will make sure the ewallet services do what he wants. If not, well, the gunmen pull out their guns.

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August 06, 2011, 08:18:57 PM
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Not impossible at all. Shinobi will decide how Bitcoin is "regulated" and then his gunmen will make sure the ewallet services do what he wants. If not, well, the gunmen pull out their guns.

How are they going to chase around anonymous e-wallet services?

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August 06, 2011, 08:34:44 PM
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Not impossible at all. Shinobi will decide how Bitcoin is "regulated" and then his gunmen will make sure the ewallet services do what he wants. If not, well, the gunmen pull out their guns.

How are they going to chase around anonymous e-wallet services?

Even anonymous services require service providers. Rare is the person who will not talk when there's a gun at his head.

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August 06, 2011, 08:51:20 PM
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Quote
type 2 people won't install the standard bitcoin client on their desktop... period.   Much less SSH to that client from a remote machine.

There are plenty of people who aren't very technically smart but don't have a problem installing and running software. Plenty of non-technical people are perfectly capable of downloading an app on their phone. And that is far superior to trusting a bitcoin bank.
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August 06, 2011, 09:39:01 PM
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Quote
type 2 people won't install the standard bitcoin client on their desktop... period.   Much less SSH to that client from a remote machine.

There are plenty of people who aren't very technically smart but don't have a problem installing and running software. Plenty of non-technical people are perfectly capable of downloading an app on their phone. And that is far superior to trusting a bitcoin bank.

Bitcoin needs online wallets not only for people who couldn't install a client but for accelerate and make possible RL transactions.

Listen Radio Libre (Electronica) Donate. (click for details).

Chilean peso VS BTC ahora: http://irage.ca/2btc.php?a=1&c=CLP&r=1

My bitcoin address
jackjack
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August 06, 2011, 09:42:27 PM
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Quote
type 2 people won't install the standard bitcoin client on their desktop... period.   Much less SSH to that client from a remote machine.

There are plenty of people who aren't very technically smart but don't have a problem installing and running software. Plenty of non-technical people are perfectly capable of downloading an app on their phone. And that is far superior to trusting a bitcoin bank.

Bitcoin needs online wallets not only for people who couldn't install a client but for accelerate and make possible RL transactions.
NFC

Own address: 19QkqAza7BHFTuoz9N8UQkryP4E9jHo4N3 - Pywallet support: 1AQDfx22pKGgXnUZFL1e4UKos3QqvRzNh5 - Bitcointalk++ script support: 1Pxeccscj1ygseTdSV1qUqQCanp2B2NMM2
Pywallet: instructions. Encrypted wallet support, export/import keys/addresses, backup wallets, export/import CSV data from/into wallet, merge wallets, delete/import addresses and transactions, recover altcoins sent to bitcoin addresses, sign/verify messages and files with Bitcoin addresses, recover deleted wallets, etc.
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August 06, 2011, 09:55:42 PM
 #17

Bitcoin needs online wallets not only for people who couldn't install a client but for accelerate and make possible RL transactions.
NFC

... and until all mobiles have NFC, QR codes works perfectly. No more complicated or time consuming than chip + pin.
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August 06, 2011, 09:57:02 PM
 #18

Quote
type 2 people won't install the standard bitcoin client on their desktop... period.   Much less SSH to that client from a remote machine.

There are plenty of people who aren't very technically smart but don't have a problem installing and running software. Plenty of non-technical people are perfectly capable of downloading an app on their phone. And that is far superior to trusting a bitcoin bank.

Bitcoin needs online wallets not only for people who couldn't install a client but for accelerate and make possible RL transactions.
NFC

NFC is not in the street at the present (1 or 2 Nexus phones are nothing) and you forget that Bitcoin transactions may easily take 30 minutes to be confirmed.

Listen Radio Libre (Electronica) Donate. (click for details).

Chilean peso VS BTC ahora: http://irage.ca/2btc.php?a=1&c=CLP&r=1

My bitcoin address
defxor
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August 06, 2011, 10:05:17 PM
 #19

NFC is not in the street at the present (1 or 2 Nexus phones are nothing) and you forget that Bitcoin transactions may easily take 30 minutes to be confirmed.

In most situations you'd ever use cash or small credit card transactions (person 2 person, merchants) "0/unconfirmed" visible instantly when the other party is standing next to you is good enough.

Tried Bitcoin Wallet on Android? You should.
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August 06, 2011, 10:05:51 PM
 #20

Bitcoin needs online wallets not only for people who couldn't install a client but for accelerate and make possible RL transactions.
NFC

... and until all mobiles have NFC, QR codes works perfectly. No more complicated or time consuming than chip + pin.


Think about you just have said. Imagine that you go to the grocery and has selected all the meals that you want. Now you have to pay. With Bitcoin you are who initiate the transaction, because this, a QR code has no sense. You should send your coins to the grocery's address and they must confirm that you actually paid.

Whatever the method, must be active not passive because you have to initiate a transaction. And this is the first challenge, the second is he time required.

NFC is not in the street at the present (1 or 2 Nexus phones are nothing) and you forget that Bitcoin transactions may easily take 30 minutes to be confirmed.

In most situations you'd ever use cash or small credit card transactions (person 2 person, merchants) "0/unconfirmed" visible instantly when the other party is standing next to you is good enough.

Tried Bitcoin Wallet on Android? You should.


Even you only require the 0/unconfirmed, you need wating several minutes to the receiver can see this transaction.

Listen Radio Libre (Electronica) Donate. (click for details).

Chilean peso VS BTC ahora: http://irage.ca/2btc.php?a=1&c=CLP&r=1

My bitcoin address
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