Enough about the online wallets == part 2

[defxor]

Think about you just have said. Imagine that you go to the grocery and has selected all the meals that you want. Now you have to pay. With Bitcoin you are who initiate the transaction, because this, a QR code has no sense. You should send your coins to the grocery's address and they must confirm that you actually paid.

Whatever the method, must be active not passive because you have to initiate a transaction. And this is the first challenge, the second is he time required.

I suggest you try Bitcoin Wallet before posting random nonsense. The merchant can initiate the request for a specific sum which instantly generates the QR code you as customer scans to pay.

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[ffuentes]

Think about you just have said. Imagine that you go to the grocery and has selected all the meals that you want. Now you have to pay. With Bitcoin you are who initiate the transaction, because this, a QR code has no sense. You should send your coins to the grocery's address and they must confirm that you actually paid.

Whatever the method, must be active not passive because you have to initiate a transaction. And this is the first challenge, the second is he time required.

I suggest you try Bitcoin Wallet before posting random nonsense. The merchant can initiate the request for a specific sum which instantly generates the QR code you as customer scans to pay.

I don't know how it works, I have not an Android device but I'm not convinced for what are you saying. Yes, the merchant can generate a QR but if this code is only a receipt to be readed for my phone, we still have the same problem of waitings.

Transaction in bitcoin network only would starts when I pay not when you generate a QR code.

[defxor]

I don't know how it works

I do.

I have not an Android device

I have.

Transaction in bitcoin network only would starts when I pay not when you generate a QR code.

It starts, and becomes "0/unconfirmed", when the payee scans the merchant-generated QR code. That's enough for small transactions of the every day kind. It's no less secure for your average cash-accepting (could be fake) or credit-card accepting (could be stolen and reversed) seller.

Maybe it's not clear how the app works: The seller enters a sum which instantly updates the QR code on the screen of her mobile. The buyer selects to pay and points to the sellers mobile with the camera viewfinder. A popup comes up asking the buyer to verify that she's indeed going to pay the agreed sum of BTC and offers her to verify or cancel.

That's all. It's really not complicated at all, and is very close to the end user experience we'll get with NFC.

[Andreas Schildbach]

Maybe it's not clear how the app works: The seller enters a sum which instantly updates the QR code on the screen of her mobile. The buyer selects to pay and points to the sellers mobile with the camera viewfinder. A popup comes up asking the buyer to verify that she's indeed going to pay the agreed sum of BTC and offers her to verify or cancel.

That's all. It's really not complicated at all, and is very close to the end user experience we'll get with NFC.

And by the way: NFC is already implemented since some weeks. It's just missing the phones...

[ffuentes]

A popup comes up asking the buyer to verify that she's indeed going to pay the agreed sum of BTC and offers her to verify or cancel.

How much time will have the cashier for verify the operation, 10 minutes? Any VISA/Mastercard do this faster.

When you are in other contexts, with enough time, you can do this, but not in a supermarket checkout line.

[defxor]

How much time will have the cashier for verify the operation, 10 minutes? Any VISA/Mastercard do this faster.

When you are in other contexts, with enough time, you can do this, but not in a supermarket checkout line.

Here:

It starts, and becomes "0/unconfirmed", when the payee scans the merchant-generated QR code. That's enough for small transactions of the every day kind. It's no less secure for your average cash-accepting (could be fake) or credit-card accepting (could be stolen and reversed) seller.

I suggest you find a friend with an android mobile and test it yourself. You don't need to wait 10 minutes.

[ffuentes]

Unbeatable http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/paywave/demo.html

[defxor]

Unbeatable http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/paywave/demo.html

Why do you keep posting random nonsense about something you've already admitted to not knowing anything about?

VISA Paywave is using the exact same infrastructure as any Bitcoin client can do on mobile when NFC is readily available in more models. You simply fail at being coherent.

[ffuentes]

Unbeatable http://usa.visa.com/personal/cards/paywave/demo.html

Why do you keep posting random nonsense about something you've already admitted to not knowing anything about?

VISA Paywave is using the exact same infrastructure as any Bitcoin client can do on mobile when NFC is readily available in more models. You simply fail at being coherent.

If transactions takes a long time, bitcoin needs intermediaries. In VISA Paywave, it's clear who is it. But Bitcoin network is too slow for the real world.

You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

[defxor]

You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

Third time:

It starts, and becomes "0/unconfirmed", when the payee scans the merchant-generated QR code. That's enough for small transactions of the every day kind. It's no less secure for your average cash-accepting (could be fake) or credit-card accepting (could be stolen and reversed) seller.

Feel free to think through what's needed for someone to defraud a merchant in the Bitcoin case compared to what they're already risking today with cash and credit cards. Do you know how a credit card cancel days later towards a merchant works? Is it the merchant or VISA/Mastercard that's out of pocket?


edit: This is a good writeup: http://bitcoinweekly.com/articles/bitcoin-for-merchants-part-i

[makomk]

the problem with the online currency is that it was built by us individuals familiar with the process.   Grandma can't invest $300,000 of her 6 million dollar inheritance in bitcoins because she doesn't know what a wallet.dat is,  she doesn't understand how to send money to an address that stretches across the screen, and she's NOT going to SSH into anything.    She's not even going to understand what peer to peer is.   Websites just magically appear to her with no understanding of how it works.

Anyone that can't understand how to SSH into anything is not going to be able to assess just how likely the online wallet they're using is to be full of gaping security holes - especially ones of the subtle Bitcoin-specific kind that MyBitcoins claimed they had. They certainly won't know how to use tools like Whois to figure out how easily the owner could run away with their hundredsd of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoins, and probably won't realise the implications of (for example) dealing with companies registered in Nevis. Why should we be encouraging people to act in a way they can't rationally assess the risks of again?

But she could increase the price of bitcoins and make them far more valid of a currency by depositing $300,000 USD into bitcoins.    She might even use them to buy something from an ecommerce site that accepts bitcoins,  or she may also have a meal at Meze Grill in New York,  if she could figure how to pay them in bitcoins.    Asking her to lug her laptop in and send to a huge address isn't going to help matters.

Ah yes, of course, because it'll help increase the value of our own bitcoins. Why did I even bother asking.

[error]

If transactions takes a long time, bitcoin needs intermediaries. In VISA Paywave, it's clear who is it. But Bitcoin network is too slow for the real world.

You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

The Bitcoin network is far faster than the VISA network! It takes DAYS to settle a VISA transaction; a Bitcoin transaction is settled in minutes.

[ffuentes]

If transactions takes a long time, bitcoin needs intermediaries. In VISA Paywave, it's clear who is it. But Bitcoin network is too slow for the real world.

You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

The Bitcoin network is far faster than the VISA network! It takes DAYS to settle a VISA transaction; a Bitcoin transaction is settled in minutes.

But the confirmation takes a long time, unaffordable in a real life store, credit cards takes long time in complete the whole operation but confirmation is almost instantaneous. And products like VISA Paywave are even more efficient.

[joulesbeef]

the only reason why i could se people using mybitcoin besides it was a good place to register anonymously is that everyone else was doing it.
too me it always seemed a bit crude of a site and it definitely didnt say "bank" to me. Surprised people had so much coin there. One of the "flaws" often brought up about bitcoin are things like banking protections and just plain banking. So i look forward to the flexcoin and other bitcoin banks

[Shinobi]

Me? Pulling guns? I'm not the one talking of "bounties"!

Ffuentes is right. It is an impossible situation. That was my entire point.

If e-wallets are the future, and i think they are if Bitcoin is to succeed, then regulation will be required. But you libertards don't want this - instead, thinking that some web of trust will be enough to sel-regulate. Look
where that got everyone.

But how would   you regulate this? UABB?

I'm not a libertard but what you are requesting is almost impossible.

Not impossible at all. Shinobi will decide how Bitcoin is "regulated" and then his gunmen will make sure the ewallet services do what he wants. If not, well, the gunmen pull out their guns.

[markm]

If transactions takes a long time, bitcoin needs intermediaries. In VISA Paywave, it's clear who is it. But Bitcoin network is too slow for the real world.

You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

The Bitcoin network is far faster than the VISA network! It takes DAYS to settle a VISA transaction; a Bitcoin transaction is settled in minutes.

But the confirmation takes a long time, unaffordable in a real life store, credit cards takes long time in complete the whole operation but confirmation is almost instantaneous. And products like VISA Paywave are even more efficient.

I do not believe you. It takes six MONTHS to confirm a credit card - and thus as a derivative from that also a paypal payment or dwolla payment - sufficiently to be reasonably sure it is not an orphan transaction / double spend attack (aka "chargeback").

-MarkM-

(In other words, five MONTHS of confirmation from VISA is worth less than 50 minutes of bitcoin confirmations...)

[ffuentes]

If transactions takes a long time, bitcoin needs intermediaries. In VISA Paywave, it's clear who is it. But Bitcoin network is too slow for the real world.

You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

The Bitcoin network is far faster than the VISA network! It takes DAYS to settle a VISA transaction; a Bitcoin transaction is settled in minutes.

But the confirmation takes a long time, unaffordable in a real life store, credit cards takes long time in complete the whole operation but confirmation is almost instantaneous. And products like VISA Paywave are even more efficient.

I do not believe you. It takes six MONTHS to confirm a credit card - and thus as a derivative from that also a paypal payment or dwolla payment - sufficiently to be reasonably sure it is not an orphan transaction / double spend attack (aka "chargeback").

-MarkM-

(In other words, five MONTHS of confirmation from VISA is worth less than 50 minutes of bitcoin confirmations...)

I don't know if you're right but you're talking about "credit card confirmation" and I'm talking on "transaction confirmations". I've confirmed my card with Paypal and took about a week or less than this, but is not the matter.

[markm]

If transactions takes a long time, bitcoin needs intermediaries. In VISA Paywave, it's clear who is it. But Bitcoin network is too slow for the real world.

You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

The Bitcoin network is far faster than the VISA network! It takes DAYS to settle a VISA transaction; a Bitcoin transaction is settled in minutes.

But the confirmation takes a long time, unaffordable in a real life store, credit cards takes long time in complete the whole operation but confirmation is almost instantaneous. And products like VISA Paywave are even more efficient.

I do not believe you. It takes six MONTHS to confirm a credit card - and thus as a derivative from that also a paypal payment or dwolla payment - sufficiently to be reasonably sure it is not an orphan transaction / double spend attack (aka "chargeback").

-MarkM-

(In other words, five MONTHS of confirmation from VISA is worth less than 50 minutes of bitcoin confirmations...)

I don't know if you're right but you're talking about "credit card confirmation" and I'm talking on "transaction confirmations". I've confirmed my card with Paypal and took about a week or less than this, but is not the matter.

No, I am talking about TRANSACTION CONFIRMATION.

Even if it is true that you have confirmed your card with paypal, it still takes six months for a transaction of you sending me money to be confirmed.

Up until six months I can be told oops, sorry, that confirmed card was actually used by a hacker not by the customer we thought we had confirmed, sorry, that transaction is orphan now, you owe us the money back...

With bitcoin, after just six BLOCKS it is very unlikely the transaction will turn out to be an orphan, even if it WAS a hacker. By six MONTHS, good frickin luck getting me to refund your money unless *I CHOOSE* to.

-MarkM-

[error]

If transactions takes a long time, bitcoin needs intermediaries. In VISA Paywave, it's clear who is it. But Bitcoin network is too slow for the real world.

You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

The Bitcoin network is far faster than the VISA network! It takes DAYS to settle a VISA transaction; a Bitcoin transaction is settled in minutes.

But the confirmation takes a long time, unaffordable in a real life store, credit cards takes long time in complete the whole operation but confirmation is almost instantaneous. And products like VISA Paywave are even more efficient.

You mean authorization? Sure, on the VISA network this takes a few seconds; it also takes a few seconds on the Bitcoin network.

[ffuentes]

If transactions takes a long time, bitcoin needs intermediaries. In VISA Paywave, it's clear who is it. But Bitcoin network is too slow for the real world.

You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

The Bitcoin network is far faster than the VISA network! It takes DAYS to settle a VISA transaction; a Bitcoin transaction is settled in minutes.

But the confirmation takes a long time, unaffordable in a real life store, credit cards takes long time in complete the whole operation but confirmation is almost instantaneous. And products like VISA Paywave are even more efficient.

You mean authorization? Sure, on the VISA network this takes a few seconds; it also takes a few seconds on the Bitcoin network.

No, the bitcoin network takes more than seconds, it has to wait until a block is resolved (and if the block accept include it) to the nodes can see the transaction.