NXT coin - A total scam?

[Come-from-Beyond]

Sorry, this is just wrong.  I have an archive of the Bitcoin source from November 2008 -- IE, from 3 months before it went live.  And during that 3 months, Satoshi was working on it *with* the assistance of several serious cryptographers. Updates of the code were available every day.  

You can't just lie like that.

Oh, maybe I'm wrong. Publish the most earliest source plz.

[Cryddit]

That's not what I meant.  In fact, I like the ideas behind Nxt.  But I just won't tolerate people lying about Satoshi and how he developed Bitcoin -- he did NOT hold it closed-source until after release, as claimed.

I've been considering buying some NXT, because I believe in the proof-of-stake model and I can see how it is pretty easy to develop the other mentioned features on top of it.  Also because the value would jump dramatically after release if the source code turns out to be okay. But I absolutely cannot run the client, because it has these four major strokes against it....

First, it's closed-source.  Closed-source, in itself, doesn't scream 'scam.'  But closed-source means you have to trust the developer, or trust people who've audited the code, because you can't trust source code you can't see.

Second, the developer is anonymous.  Anonymous developer, in itself, doesn't scream 'scam.'  But it means you have to trust the source code, or people who've audited the code, because you can't trust a developer whom you can't serve a subpeona on.

Third, the people who've audited the code have no history, no reputation, no known qualifications.  That in itself doesn't scream 'scam', but it means you have to trust the developer or trust the source code, because you can't trust auditors whom you don't know to be qualified.

Fourth, it's financial software.  Financial software in itself doesn't scream 'scam' but it does mean you absolutely cannot run it without completely trusting it because if you do otherwise then sooner or later a scam will take your entire life savings and/or livelihood.

So, if I acquire Nxt prior to the source code being released and audited by people I have reasons to trust, it's going to be on a 'burner box' -- install the OS, put it on its own subnet with no connections to other local machines, run the software long enough to generate a key, do the transfer,  and then save the wallet to a USB key marked 'DANGEROUS' with red nail polish, so you won't ever put it into anything except another 'burner box'.  Then shut it down and wipe the hard drive. It makes it kind of a pain in the ass to deal with.

[Come-from-Beyond]

That's not what I meant.  In fact, I like the ideas behind Nxt.  But I just won't tolerate people lying about Satoshi and how he developed Bitcoin -- he did NOT hold it closed-source until after release, as claimed.

I was always thinking that source code of Bitcoin wasn't available to ordinary people from day 1. Now I suspect I was wrong, could u prove me wrong? Also I'd like to see the very 1st version of the source code to make sure it's not the one released in 2009.

[Cryddit]

Sorry, this is just wrong.  I have an archive of the Bitcoin source from November 2008 -- IE, from 3 months before it went live.  And during that 3 months, Satoshi was working on it *with* the assistance of several serious cryptographers. Updates of the code were available every day.  

You can't just lie like that.

Oh, maybe I'm wrong. Publish the most earliest source plz.

Shoot me an email address, or get me access to the bitcoin wiki, and I will.

[relm9]

That's not what I meant.  In fact, I like the ideas behind Nxt.  But I just won't tolerate people lying about Satoshi and how he developed Bitcoin -- he did NOT hold it closed-source until after release, as claimed.

I was always thinking that source code of Bitcoin wasn't available to ordinary people from day 1. Now I suspect I was wrong, could u prove me wrong? Also I'd like to see the very 1st version of the source code to make sure it's not the one released in 2009.

What do you mean not the one released in 2009? Bitcoin v0.1 (first version available to the public at least) was released in January 2009 along with the source.

This was the release announcement Satoshi made on a mailing list: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg10152.html

I'm not aware of any earlier versions, and if there was one, it wasn't released publicly.

[Come-from-Beyond]

That's not what I meant.  In fact, I like the ideas behind Nxt.  But I just won't tolerate people lying about Satoshi and how he developed Bitcoin -- he did NOT hold it closed-source until after release, as claimed.

I was always thinking that source code of Bitcoin wasn't available to ordinary people from day 1. Now I suspect I was wrong, could u prove me wrong? Also I'd like to see the very 1st version of the source code to make sure it's not the one released in 2009.

What do you mean not the one released in 2009? Bitcoin v0.1 (first version available to the public at least) was released in January 2009 along with the source.

This was the release announcement Satoshi made on a mailing list: http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography@metzdowd.com/msg10152.html

I'm not aware of any earlier versions, and if there was one, it wasn't released publicly.

OK. Sorry guys, looks like my argument was beaten.

PS: Let's wait for 3rd of Jan then.

[timmyd]

Actually pissing myself laughing at threads like this claiming nxt to be a scam. I think you will find nxt ismt even a coin. 99% of the cloned crap coins are scams. Fact. They dont bring anything to the crypto world. Nxt on the other hand has already proven its worth over all other coins yesterday when the alias registration was released. Do your crap coins offer this? I think not. Nxt is already out performing every alt coin goin and the best thing is its still only in beta. What does that tell you. All the folks screaming scam dont have any nxt they hold a shit ton of crapcoins. Well your crap coins are bexoming ultimatley worthless. I suggest you stop scare mongering and sell your crap coins now to buy nxt. But i would say that wouldnt i being a nxt holder myself.
Newbies ignore troll threads like these and make your own mind up head over to the nxt thread and you will see how our community is working round the clock to get nxt to its full potential. The op here is just pissed his alt coins dropped half there value.  

Why would anyone buy NXT now for the current price? It is worthless and it's stakeholders are sitting on most of the 100% premined coins. Anyone who buys this now is insane in my mind.

wait for the first fork without the premine story to come out and it's history.

You obviously dont know a good investment when u see it pal. Why invest in a $12,000 asic mining rig when you could invest $12000 in nxt atm and forge nxt for no elec costs. Also why would anyone continue with alt coins that have bloated block chains that will iventually destroy them selves as it becomes too big for the average user to download? And you will find that the top 70 acc that started with nxt hold around 250 million which is only a 1/4 of total nxt? Why wouldnt you want to be involved with the firat ever decentralised messaging service/exchange. Time and technology is moving on keep up pal. Nxt is cheap at the current pruce but hey you go ahead and miss the boat and buy in at 0.1btc upto you.

1. I didn't say anything in favor of usual coins /altcoins
2. I didn't say I don't have NXT / hate NXT
3. I am merely not in favor of its initial distribution
4. I have been with Bitcoin since early 2010 and have had many successful investments since. I have been watching NXT since it came out and yes I find it very interesting.

What I was saying is that, should the source of Next ever be released, a more innovative fork is going to come along that doesn't begin by distributing to only very few stakeholders holding 99% of the pre"mined" coins.



No offense and cheers! If you buy NXT now at these prices, good luck....

Thank you for your good will wishes. 1 question how would you have distributed all the coins fairly?

[Cryddit]

As long as we entertain the idea that nothing is going to be "fair" while some people get some and others do not... 

I'd take all the non-coinbase transactions on the Bitcoin blockchain having at least one unspent txout,

Then take one unspent txout from each such transaction, take the pubkey, and add it to a list.

Then create an ex nihilo transaction in the genesis block of your new coin awarding an equal amount of the altcoin to each key - allowing people with bitcoin keys to use the same keys to spend their altcoin.

Wait a year for people who haven't lost the key to their bitcoin utxo's to claim their coins, and if they don't then delete those coins from the altcoin blockchain.

It would still be 'unfair' insofar as some would randomly get more than others and might favor early bitcoin adopters, but it would be 'fair-er' in that the coins would be spread out to a large number of holders and in that no matter how much or how little bitcoin you have you get "approximately" the same amount of the new coin -- ie, it depends on number of utxo's not amount in coins.

[User705]

Actually pissing myself laughing at threads like this claiming nxt to be a scam. I think you will find nxt ismt even a coin. 99% of the cloned crap coins are scams. Fact. They dont bring anything to the crypto world. Nxt on the other hand has already proven its worth over all other coins yesterday when the alias registration was released. Do your crap coins offer this? I think not. Nxt is already out performing every alt coin goin and the best thing is its still only in beta. What does that tell you. All the folks screaming scam dont have any nxt they hold a shit ton of crapcoins. Well your crap coins are bexoming ultimatley worthless. I suggest you stop scare mongering and sell your crap coins now to buy nxt. But i would say that wouldnt i being a nxt holder myself.
Newbies ignore troll threads like these and make your own mind up head over to the nxt thread and you will see how our community is working round the clock to get nxt to its full potential. The op here is just pissed his alt coins dropped half there value.  

Why would anyone buy NXT now for the current price? It is worthless and it's stakeholders are sitting on most of the 100% premined coins. Anyone who buys this now is insane in my mind.

wait for the first fork without the premine story to come out and it's history.

You obviously dont know a good investment when u see it pal. Why invest in a $12,000 asic mining rig when you could invest $12000 in nxt atm and forge nxt for no elec costs. Also why would anyone continue with alt coins that have bloated block chains that will iventually destroy them selves as it becomes too big for the average user to download? And you will find that the top 70 acc that started with nxt hold around 250 million which is only a 1/4 of total nxt? Why wouldnt you want to be involved with the firat ever decentralised messaging service/exchange. Time and technology is moving on keep up pal. Nxt is cheap at the current pruce but hey you go ahead and miss the boat and buy in at 0.1btc upto you.

1. I didn't say anything in favor of usual coins /altcoins
2. I didn't say I don't have NXT / hate NXT
3. I am merely not in favor of its initial distribution
4. I have been with Bitcoin since early 2010 and have had many successful investments since. I have been watching NXT since it came out and yes I find it very interesting.

What I was saying is that, should the source of Next ever be released, a more innovative fork is going to come along that doesn't begin by distributing to only very few stakeholders holding 99% of the pre"mined" coins.



No offense and cheers! If you buy NXT now at these prices, good luck....

If Nxt concept is proven to work then any next clone / iteration will have the exact same distribution problem as any other valuable but limited resource.  Early adopters will reap bigger benefits then late adopters.  The other option is to have an auction similar to what Nxt did initially but then the price will rise to be roughly the same as Nxt and there will be no point and you might as well buy Nxt the original.  There is no point in trying to do a fair distribution.  Even if you distribute it to every person evenly for free every person will value it differently and coins will concentrate in the same big hands that want to be big hands.

[Romyen]

Nxt concept is proven to work then any next clone / iteration will have the exact same distribution problem as any other valuable but limited resource.

What exactly is the Nxt concept? The only innovation claimed to have been implemented here, that isn't being tried by someone else, is a migration of code to Java. However, this is not much of an innovation, nor is it an improvement. Even the scam is not innovative. If the java source code, which to the best of my knowledge has not been released were worth anything, and I doubt that it is, then someone else could indeed copy it minus the 100% premining, and would be more likely to succeed. You don't have a market lead because you don't have a real market. Peercoin, which you copied, isn't premined.


There is no point in trying to do a fair distribution.  Even if you distribute it to every person evenly for free every person will value it differently and coins

The problem with premining isn't an issue of fairness, but of market stability. When an early adopter gets rich quick off a coin, and most of his net worth is concentrated in an extremely volatile asset. It serves his best interests to dump his coins, but no one knows when. Even the holder himself might not be able to predict when he needs money in a hurry. Thus the price depends upon the whims of a few isolated individuals whom no one else knows. This problem of concentration can be mitigated only with a long accumulation curve over time.

[User705]

The concept I speak of is 100% PoS.  If you know of another crypto that did that before please point to where.  When you speak of market stability which coin are you comparing it to XBT.  You think XBT price market is stable?

[Cryddit]

The problem with premining isn't an issue of fairness, but of market stability. When an early adopter gets rich quick off a coin, and most of his net worth is concentrated in an extremely volatile asset. It serves his best interests to dump his coins, but no one knows when. Even the holder himself might not be able to predict when he needs money in a hurry. Thus the price depends upon the whims of a few isolated individuals whom no one else knows. This problem of concentration can be mitigated only with a long accumulation curve over time.

--- unless you manage to do it in such a way as to distribute it *WIDELY* right from the start.  Seriously, like to at least tens of thousands of people. Way more than you could ever get to answer a thread on this forum.

[Romyen]

The problem with premining isn't an issue of fairness, but of market stability. When an early adopter gets rich quick off a coin, and most of his net worth is concentrated in an extremely volatile asset. It serves his best interests to dump his coins, but no one knows when. Even the holder himself might not be able to predict when he needs money in a hurry. Thus the price depends upon the whims of a few isolated individuals whom no one else knows. This problem of concentration can be mitigated only with a long accumulation curve over time.

--- unless you manage to do it in such a way as to distribute it *WIDELY* right from the start.  Seriously, like to at least tens of thousands of people. Way more than you could ever get to answer a thread on this forum.

I agree. This is something I didn't consider. Do you have any ideas on how that can be done without a few people gaming the system?

[Cryddit]

Look at post 131 in this thread.  That was my basic idea. 

[Romyen]

Look at post 131 in this thread.  That was my basic idea. 

Yes. Sorry for missing your post. Great idea!

[GhostGum]

Just spent half hour reading abou this coin, not looking too positive so far.
So i read this is 100% POS, but where exactly do the original 'stake' coins come from? I read some debate about initial distrivution in this thread, but i'm still not clear on how the original coins are minted?
Is there information page somewhere with explicit details on minting and distribution of the original coinpool?
Am I to presume they where 100% premined/allocated to a single person/group of morally questionable entrepreneurs?
Well it worked out for ripple, i'm supprised we have not seen more variations of that scam appear.
Am i also to presume, jusdging by the choice of java language, and lack of source release, that this group lacks any competent developers?
I expect thet the use of a rapid development language such as java, with it's vast collection of libraries of prewritten code; will indeed allow even woefuly incompetent devs to add new flashy features in short timeframe, which with sufficient spruking will attract a plethora of ignorant unfortunates buying into their scam. I just hope that the great security holes innevitably present in the poorly written (preumably poorly, i'd be delighted if i'm proven wrong,)  java client don't cause anyone to loose anything more than thier own foolish 'investment' into a this rubbish.
The team behind it do seem to be very active promoting/spruking this unethical crud, so i'm sorry to say that this coin will probably actualy do well increasing in value even further in the short term, profiting those who time it well. Regardless, I'd not touch this crap myself, for a large number of reasons, too many to bother listing.

Just remember, the most effective scams are the scams where the scammed think they are the ones doing the scamming, too busy focusing on not blowing it themself, to notice any giveaway tells from other party, and too greedy to excercise caution if they do notice something amis .

Well that's just my <i>'totally an expert after half hour reading, barely related to the subject, opinions of others only slightly more informed than myself'</i>, opinion anyway.

[mr_random]

Bitcoin - a total scam?

Satoshi mined one million Bitcoins in the first year. Must be a scam right?

Grow up plz. Sure, if in a year from now NXT hasn't become a fully functional cryptocurrency call it a scam but the signs so far are extremely encouraging and the market as a whole obviously sees that which is why the value has soared so much on dgex.

[Come-from-Beyond]

I expect thet the use of a rapid development language such as java, with it's vast collection of libraries of prewritten code; will indeed allow even woefuly incompetent devs to add new flashy features in short timeframe, which with sufficient spruking will attract a plethora of ignorant unfortunates buying into their scam.

This is incorrect. Java is de-facto standard in financial world software development.

[GhostGum]

I have very little experience with java myself, so am definatley an expert on the subject.
I'm sure that java can be secure, and that there are a large number of well tested in the field java libs that can be presumed to be implimented securely, which is often a better scenario than custom implimentations by devs who are somewhat out of thier league, or just wanting to get past the boring areas in focus on the more interesting (to them) parts of the project.
Was kinda just having a troll at the devs, mostly cos, in my limited knowledge (making me an expert!) of this project puts me in moral oposition to what i perceive as the main goals driving it.

[Rokund]

I thought NXT will not success.

1. It's unfair since all coins were pre-mined. Not just a well-designed architecture and infrastructure that make a successful currency but human belief are a more important element.

Anything with human mind involved become complex and unpredictable. So you should take human nature into consideration.

2. Many awesome features of NXT makes it looks like a super set of altcoins. But only POS were implemented.

I can also state that I will invent a currency that can cure all diseases(but i didn't implemented it yet either )

3. The system were full of bugs. The client I installed never ran properly more than 24 hours.

I had to delete the .nxt or re-download all client and block chain files to fetch the latest block info every time I restart computer.

And the block chain update progress always got stuck.

Not to saying the super user with huge amount of coins or negative number of coins.

4. The account id issue. We had talked about it for a long time but no any reasonable answer.

It is a simple sense that the fewer digits of receiving id will harm the system security since the probability of conflict become higher.

The most reasonable discuss I saw was that the short account id is just for showing, it will eventually bind with a full public key.

But it still makes no sense since we can send coins to a whole new short id, and what's the new short id will be bound to?

The most weird thing of all is that I still don't know what's the purpose of this short account id design.

This design reveals the lake security sense of the designer/developer. And this is the clue we can see, how are the security details we cannot see?