Coindesk - China might have just killed BTC there.

[tclo]

http://www.coindesk.com/china-bans-payment-companies-working-bitcoin-exchanges-sources-claim/

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[DGulari]

http://www.coindesk.com/china-bans-payment-companies-working-bitcoin-exchanges-sources-claim/

No kidding.  China's stance against bitcoin has just moved from 'firm' to 'outrageous'.  This is going to have a serious effect for a few months.  But who cares?  Can't stop bitcoin with these stupid laws.  You'll just disadvantage your country's economy.  Bitcoin is coming whether they like it or not.  The rest of the world will carry on without china for a while.  I didn't like the dominate position they were working themselves into last month anyway.  I for one am glad they put that fire out.

Next week I am going to buy some bitcoin on heavy discount.  All those Chinese who paid $1,200 are going to be taking $400 from me.  By March, we'll all be right back up to $1,000!!!  What a steal. 

[proudhon]

Who is sources?  Sources may be the most powerful bitcoin manipulator of all.

[The 4ner]

Bitcoin won't be going anywhere if we don't have international support. May I remind you that most of us that expect bitcoin to be successful
rely on nations welcoming it in the first place. In addition, the current price spike has a lot to do with Chinese businesses having accepted bitcoin as payment. If we lose china
we're sure to experience a significant price drop.

[Peter R]

Bitcoin won't be going anywhere if we don't have international support. May I remind you that most of us that expect bitcoin to be successful
rely on nations welcoming it in the first place.

We rely on the people of nations welcoming it (once they understand it).  We expect some hostility from TPTB.  

[hilariousandco]

The Chinese will just get their coins some other way. It's not exactly difficult to buy coins outside of exchanges.

[btcrich]

Bitcoin does not need nations to accept it in order for it to be successful.  Bitcoin needs only people.

I'm living in China, and yes, many are using Bitcoin as an investment instrument.  A large portion however are using it to move wealth abroad without the scrutiny of the Chinese government.

[The 4ner]

Bitcoin won't be going anywhere if we don't have international support. May I remind you that most of us that expect bitcoin to be successful
rely on nations welcoming it in the first place.

We rely on the people of nations welcoming it (once they understand it).  We expect some hostility from TPTB.  

Yes but you forget that no people are truly free to do as they wish. They are all governed in some form regardless of their geographical location.
If a government criminalizes the use of crypto then certainly people will hesitate to adopt it. 

[QuestionAuthority]

So much for the concept of, "we don't need America we have the rest of the world". Well great, let's see what the rest of the world does first.

Does anyone know if the Chinese made a public statement yet or do we only have the word of Coindesk?

[TheJacob]

The Chinese will just get their coins some other way. It's not exactly difficult to buy coins outside of exchanges.

If this is true there won't be many ways to get bitcoins. Basically just cash in person. Sure, you can take bank transfers, but that will be illegal.

[Bismarckbkk]

If there is no economical and practical incentive people wont use it.

The more barriers built for bitcoin the higher the cost of trading with it will be, then the only real use left will be fore those who are evading taxes or dealing in the black market.

As a store wealth there is nothing that makes bitcoin better then say farmland or gold.

[hilariousandco]

The Chinese will just get their coins some other way. It's not exactly difficult to buy coins outside of exchanges.

If this is true there won't be many ways to get bitcoins. Basically just cash in person. Sure, you can take bank transfers, but that will be illegal.

They could use Paypal haha. And besides, It doesn't say anything about banning bank transfers or the purchasing of coins, just stopping third party payment processors. I also don't see how they could even prove what the bank transfer was for. If people want coins they'll get around the restrictions somehow.

[Tomatocage]

How can we spin this into being a good thing?

[QuestionAuthority]

How can we spin this into being a good thing?

I don't know why your ignore button isn't darker. lol

[mister p]

today it's China, but tomorrow another big country could do the same. Who knows really? Nobody can be sure this will not happen. So the future is really uncertain.

Truth is bitcoin has grown into a bubble last weeks, and now the bubble is blasting. I wouldn't be surprised if it went down to 200/300 dollars and stayed there for a few month or even years. Just  like the Internet companies in the early 2000's. What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

[DeepCryptoanalist3]

Sources close to China’s Central Bank today reported that the institution has banned third-party payment companies from doing business with bitcoin exchanges.

Who said that this is true? Who is this source?

[imfed]

One week ago the PBOC issued a notice about regulating Bitcoin exchanges. I don't think that the PBOC changed its mind within some days, so probably only those Bitcoin exchanges that do not register with the authorities will be closed down / cut off from payment services.

Strengthening regulation of Bitcoin websites

According to the Telecommunications Act and the Regulation on Internet Information Service, websites that provide Bitcoin services like registration, trading etc should register with the telecommunications regulation authorities.

The telecommunications regulation authorities, following the determinations and punishment opinions of the relevant management authorities, should close down illegal Bitcoin sites according to law.

[LouReed]

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

LOL, really!! You can buy a lot more than just drugs and guns with Bitcoin! I use Gyft every weekend to spend my Bitcoins, and there is plenty of other places/ways to spend Bitcoin!

[QuestionAuthority]

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

LOL, really!! You can buy a lot more than just drugs and guns with Bitcoin! I use Gyft every weekend to spend my Bitcoins, and there is plenty of other places/ways to spend Bitcoin!

Don't feed the troll. Silk Road is gone. You can't even buy guns and drugs with it anymore.

[mister p]

I don't understand what bitcoin regulation has to do with the telecomunication act?

[hilariousandco]

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

LOL, really!! You can buy a lot more than just drugs and guns with Bitcoin! I use Gyft every weekend to spend my Bitcoins, and there is plenty of other places/ways to spend Bitcoin!

You can buy fake rubbery vaginas: http://www.cryptosextoys.com/fleshlights/fleshlight-girls

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

LOL, really!! You can buy a lot more than just drugs and guns with Bitcoin! I use Gyft every weekend to spend my Bitcoins, and there is plenty of other places/ways to spend Bitcoin!

Don't feed the troll. Silk Road is gone. You can't even buy guns and drugs with it anymore.

Silk Road 2.0 has been up and running for over a month.

[QuestionAuthority]

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

LOL, really!! You can buy a lot more than just drugs and guns with Bitcoin! I use Gyft every weekend to spend my Bitcoins, and there is plenty of other places/ways to spend Bitcoin!

You can buy fake rubbery vaginas: http://www.cryptosextoys.com/fleshlights/fleshlight-girls

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

LOL, really!! You can buy a lot more than just drugs and guns with Bitcoin! I use Gyft every weekend to spend my Bitcoins, and there is plenty of other places/ways to spend Bitcoin!

Don't feed the troll. Silk Road is gone. You can't even buy guns and drugs with it anymore.

Silk Road 2.0 has been up and running for over a month.

Swell, go ahead and feed the troll a nice big bag of oats.

[mister p]

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

LOL, really!! You can buy a lot more than just drugs and guns with Bitcoin! I use Gyft every weekend to spend my Bitcoins, and there is plenty of other places/ways to spend Bitcoin!

right, but you can already buy this kind of goods with your credit card. So what's the point in converting your money to bitcoins, paying fees to the exchange places, to buy the same thing you could already buy with your credit card?

Let's be honest, biggest strength of bitcoin is you can buy anonymously online.

Let me ask people calling me a troll something : how can you be sure what's happening in China today won't happen in another country? How can you be sure people will put up with the hassle of getting bitcoins to buy a pizza they can already buy with their money?

I'll answer it for you, you don't know and nobody knows. Call me a troll, but you might as well be a clairvoyant that can predict the future.

[quone17]

Well, there was a positive article out too about the Swiss gov. being supportive of BTC and treating it just like any other foreign currency.  I think this is what we really want, BTC to be considered a currency instead of like a security/good, like the stock market or gold, right?

[FandangledGizmo]

Can anyone translate Chinese? There is an article on the BTC38 site and I think the gist of it is that these rumors may be fake.

http://www.btc38.com/btc/btc_market/476.html

Courtesy of google translate -

...microblogging certification Users "Li Wenbo" posted microblogging, has been deleted thereafter, another QQ members of the central bank had posted a fake PS notice as follows: QQ group members who posted sham notice Xiaobian deliberately opened the central bank "to pay liquidated Division "page ( http://www.pbc.gov.cn/publish/zhifujiesuansi/394/index.html ), did not this news. Rumor has no visible acting in order to do their utmost. Because in all kinds of superposition... Xiao Bian bit era you please customers keep their eyes open, be careful to avoid cross-check again and causing huge losses to be deceived by similar rumors

[QuestionAuthority]

Well, there was a positive article out too about the Swiss gov. being supportive of BTC and treating it just like any other foreign currency.  I think this is what we really want, BTC to be considered a currency instead of like a security/good, like the stock market or gold, right?

That's nice but what we want is volume.

[hilariousandco]

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

LOL, really!! You can buy a lot more than just drugs and guns with Bitcoin! I use Gyft every weekend to spend my Bitcoins, and there is plenty of other places/ways to spend Bitcoin!

right, but you can already buy this kind of goods with your credit card. So what's the point in converting your money to bitcoins, paying fees to the exchange places, to buy the same thing you could already buy with your credit card?

I agree to some extent that buying goods with a giftcard is cheating slightly, but hopefully one day we'll be able to cut out the middleman and buy things directly without the need to convert to giftcards, but it's the best option there is at the moment to spend your coins on the highstreet.

[furezasan]

Another country should learn from this and change their stance before it's too late

[artiface]

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

You can buy anything.  See http://www.gyft.com/, see https://www.joinsnapcard.com/, see https://btctrip.com/, see https://bitpay.com/directory#/
If you can't find a way to buy whatever it is you want with bitcoin then you didn't even try

[pAst4]

other blogs are talking about that article

http://btcltcnews.blogspot.it/2013/12/china-against-bitcoin-payment-companies.html

i don't know if the source is realistic or not, but what i know is that bitcoins on btc-e are now just red candles

[EnderHf]

Damn bitcoin price is sure going to drop like crazy but hopefully there are still some people that buy bitcoins in china since they are the reason we hit the 1000 dollar mark.

[laudub]

Who is sources?  Sources may be the most powerful bitcoin manipulator of all.

From what I read here Coindesk had also been advocating inputs.io as one of the most secure site ever if I'm not mistaken... Despite numerous people pointing out here why inputs.io wasn't the be-all end-all of security.

So I'm not exactly sure Coindesk is the epitomy of journalistic integrity.

And it's kinda bad that a single site, with a single rumor, no matter if it turns true or not, can have a -25% instant effect on the btc value 

I'm not saying they're not correct: but I'm taking it with a grain of salt.

[Byte_Me]

Can anyone translate Chinese? There is an article on the BTC38 site and I think the gist of it is that these rumors may be fake.

http://www.btc38.com/btc/btc_market/476.html

Courtesy of google translate -

...microblogging certification Users "Li Wenbo" posted microblogging, has been deleted thereafter, another QQ members of the central bank had posted a fake PS notice as follows: QQ group members who posted sham notice Xiaobian deliberately opened the central bank "to pay liquidated Division "page ( http://www.pbc.gov.cn/publish/zhifujiesuansi/394/index.html ), did not this news. Rumor has no visible acting in order to do their utmost. Because in all kinds of superposition... Xiao Bian bit era you please customers keep their eyes open, be careful to avoid cross-check again and causing huge losses to be deceived by similar rumors

If that's true, that's very devious 

[Cryptolator]

I see no problem with that, who cares if Chinese can't buy Bitcoins, the price will go down, we'll buy more coins and they'll be late to the party. What do you expect from a dictatorial government anyway?

[jubalix]

This looks like carefully organised FUD.

No official document like last time.


I await  the official document

and thanks for the cheap coins

[WillBit]

This looks like bullshit.

Second time in a couple weeks someone has posted some bullshit bearish sentiment about China here and started a sell-off.

Thanks for the cheap coins assholes!

[otsaku]

I see no problem with that, who cares if Chinese can't buy Bitcoins, the price will go down, we'll buy more coins and they'll be late to the party. What do you expect from a dictatorial government anyway?

From what I can glean from a very bad google translate Bitcoin and the exchanges aren't being banned.

It is the third party payment comapnies - in other words if you withdrawing bitcoin from an exchange account it has to go into your bank account directly.

Though I might be wrong because of the wording about the spring festival - but in my unqualified opinion the chinese are still in Bitcoin quite legally as long as they don't use any stop gaps between the exchange and their bank...

[Piper67]

This looks like bullshit.

Second time in a couple weeks someone has posted some bullshit bearish sentiment about China here and started a sell-off.

Thanks for the cheap coins assholes!

You have to understand they are INCREDIBLY new to the Bitcoin experience. Those of us who witnessed the MtGox crash of 2011, the pirate@40 crash of 2012, the accidental fork crash of March of this year and the crash of April know that Bitcoin is a lot more solid. But if you're a newbie who has put some money into bitcoins, and suddenly you hear all sorts of rumor and FUD, it'll shake you.

[e521]

Wait tomorrow and see if they release an official statements.
It's not a good news at all, it prevents capital from flowing into the market and substain the price

[otsaku]

Isn't it basically what the Swiss - on the surface - are advocating? Regulating Bitcoin as a currency.

Not that I believe the swiss would be adverse to the anonymity of the coin.

[The 4ner]

today it's China, but tomorrow another big country could do the same. Who knows really? Nobody can be sure this will not happen. So the future is really uncertain.

Truth is bitcoin has grown into a bubble last weeks, and now the bubble is blasting. I wouldn't be surprised if it went down to 200/300 dollars and stayed there for a few month or even years. Just  like the Internet companies in the early 2000's. What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

No true. I purchased an iPad and will soon be purchasing a Macbook Air.

[coins101]

"Dear BTC China valued customer: To stabilize the recent turbulent Bitcoin market and minimize potential market manipulation, BTC China will end the 0% trading fee promotion, effective immediately, and revert to the 0.3% trading fee. We deeply apologize for the sudden change. BTC China, December 16, 2013"

The reintroduction of a fee at short notice seems to indicate that this is true.

BTC took on funding from investors recently and cut the fee to zero, except for a withdrawal fee. Reintroducing the fee at short notice and tied to this possible move by the regulators, plus the fall in BTC value, increase in transactions - sounds like bad news?

[DeeSome]

I see no problem with that, who cares if Chinese can't buy Bitcoins, the price will go down, we'll buy more coins and they'll be late to the party. What do you expect from a dictatorial government anyway?

From what I can glean from a very bad google translate Bitcoin and the exchanges aren't being banned.

It is the third party payment comapnies - in other words if you withdrawing bitcoin from an exchange account it has to go into your bank account directly.

Though I might be wrong because of the wording about the spring festival - but in my unqualified opinion the chinese are still in Bitcoin quite legally as long as they don't use any stop gaps between the exchange and their bank...

How can you move bitcoins into a bank account?

[tclo]

"Dear BTC China valued customer: To stabilize the recent turbulent Bitcoin market and minimize potential market manipulation, BTC China will end the 0% trading fee promotion, effective immediately, and revert to the 0.3% trading fee. We deeply apologize for the sudden change. BTC China, December 16, 2013"

The reintroduction of a fee at short notice seems to indicate that this is true.

BTC took on funding from investors recently and cut the fee to zero, except for a withdrawal fee. Reintroducing the fee at short notice and tied to this possible move by the regulators, plus the fall in BTC value, increase in transactions - sounds like bad news?

Yes there is no way that is just a coincidence.  It came out the same day and they aren't even giving any notice as to the change.    

Chinese gov't has decided to kill BTC there and they are going at it in a clear and systematic fashion.

[BittBurger]

No kidding.  China's stance against bitcoin has just moved from 'firm' to 'outrageous'.  This is going to have a serious effect for a few months.  But who cares?  Can't stop bitcoin with these stupid laws.  You'll just disadvantage your country's economy.  Bitcoin is coming whether they like it or not.  The rest of the world will carry on without china for a while.  I didn't like the dominate position they were working themselves into last month anyway.  I for one am glad they put that fire out.

Next week I am going to buy some bitcoin on heavy discount.  All those Chinese who paid $1,200 are going to be taking $400 from me.  By March, we'll all be right back up to $1,000!!!  What a steal.  

I seriously couldn't have put it better myself.

Let the weak hands panic in the meantime.  Give us bigger discounts ladies.

[LiteCoinGuy]

I see no problem with that, who cares if Chinese can't buy Bitcoins, the price will go down, we'll buy more coins and they'll be late to the party. What do you expect from a dictatorial government anyway?

From what I can glean from a very bad google translate Bitcoin and the exchanges aren't being banned.

It is the third party payment comapnies - in other words if you withdrawing bitcoin from an exchange account it has to go into your bank account directly.

Though I might be wrong because of the wording about the spring festival - but in my unqualified opinion the chinese are still in Bitcoin quite legally as long as they don't use any stop gaps between the exchange and their bank...

How can you move bitcoins into a bank account?

you trade directly with other guys via an exchange, like at bitcoin.de (german "exchange") , that means, the exchange just connects you and an other guy.

[Gilberto]

People's Bank of China banned all the third party payment company doing business related to bitcoin, including bitcoin exchange platforms.
For those who is currently doing, they are required to completely cut off bitcoin related business by the Chinese new year, which is at the end of Jan 2014.
For the business held by entity outside of China, they haven't decide what to do, but very likely to be negative.

Btcchina is operated in the Shanghai's new pilot free trading zone. It is at a awkward spot. They has terminate the partnership with Tenpay(probably second largest third party payment company under Alipay). They are now using Yeepay, which is probably a random small company I have never heard of.

After Dec 5, small merchants or online shop owner could still accept bitcoin as payment and comfortably convert them to rmb through exchange like btcchina. In the future , this is going to be much harder and completely illegal after the Chinese new year. Basically, bitcoin is dead in China for the most part. People can only use it as speculative investment and store of value, but it is going to very hard for them to realize their potential profit legally in the future.

In the future, if bitcoin still managed to success internationally without China market, people in China would still be able to own it and sell it in a similar way how people deposit and withdraw money from Pokerstars. But it probably wouldn't be a hot topic as it was months ago.

Btcchina is the only exchange located in the Shanghai's free pilot trading zone, it could possibly survive. But the best case scenario is that btcchina is going to the only one left.

[seek4dream]

i just deposited some RMB in my BTCChina account.
it works well.
and the BTC price is in a rising trend,. i guess guys who sell under 4000RMB will cry a lot.

[BitJock-e]

Regulators here State side are watching the repercussions very closely.

Will all this drive the China exchanges to another country or to find some loopholes?

Its all new uncharted territory.

[ImI]

I see no problem with that, who cares if Chinese can't buy Bitcoins, the price will go down, we'll buy more coins and they'll be late to the party. What do you expect from a dictatorial government anyway?

From what I can glean from a very bad google translate Bitcoin and the exchanges aren't being banned.

It is the third party payment comapnies - in other words if you withdrawing bitcoin from an exchange account it has to go into your bank account directly.

Though I might be wrong because of the wording about the spring festival - but in my unqualified opinion the chinese are still in Bitcoin quite legally as long as they don't use any stop gaps between the exchange and their bank...

How can you move bitcoins into a bank account?

you trade directly with other guys via an exchange, like at bitcoin.de (german "exchange") , that means, the exchange just connects you and an other guy.

its basically an escrow service

[AnonyMint]

I see no problem with that, who cares if Chinese can't buy Bitcoins, the price will go down, we'll buy more coins and they'll be late to the party. What do you expect from a dictatorial government anyway?

From what I can glean from a very bad google translate Bitcoin and the exchanges aren't being banned.

It is the third party payment comapnies - in other words if you withdrawing bitcoin from an exchange account it has to go into your bank account directly.

Though I might be wrong because of the wording about the spring festival - but in my unqualified opinion the chinese are still in Bitcoin quite legally as long as they don't use any stop gaps between the exchange and their bank...

How can you move bitcoins into a bank account?

Wiring funds to and from BTC China's bank account.

This rumor only affects the 3rd party payment companies, not the banks.

This rumor doesn't add anything that wasn't already in that official document from China. The 3rd party payment processors were already banned from Bitcoin in the recent official document from China.

This panic selloff is probably a buying opportunity.

[johnyj]

There is another benefit with bitcoin: You can simply put your retirement savings into bitcoin each year and when you retire, move all those coins to another country and spend them there

Of course the government will be crazy, they could not charge you any capital gain tax because you never liquidated those coins domestically

[Equilux]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1s61x1/what_the_actual_chinese_notice_not_summary_says/

[FenixRD]

"Dear BTC China valued customer: To stabilize the recent turbulent Bitcoin market and minimize potential market manipulation, BTC China will end the 0% trading fee promotion, effective immediately, and revert to the 0.3% trading fee. We deeply apologize for the sudden change. BTC China, December 16, 2013"

The reintroduction of a fee at short notice seems to indicate that this is true.

BTC took on funding from investors recently and cut the fee to zero, except for a withdrawal fee. Reintroducing the fee at short notice and tied to this possible move by the regulators, plus the fall in BTC value, increase in transactions - sounds like bad news?

It's an impolite move by BTCChina, especially for the many users who make use of their API with trade scripts while they sleep. I've been highly unimpressed with some of their performance today, actually. (Been trying them out.) Either way, sounds like bad news, looks like bad news, and the market is certainly reflecting that. Unfortunately, it's rather difficult to call where the price will stabilize until this plays out further. If it bounced now I'd say we could expect a new lower level of stability around $750 - $800 but that may be very different after the day ends. In China, I mean. It's 9:30 AM there, and their trade volume consistently peaks following the clock, so there will be movement, just unclear how much and in which direction.

[420]

How can we spin this into being a good thing?

"The large group of chinese speculators will no longer be in the bitcoin market causing high volatility!"

BOOM, print and run with it tomatoman

[BitCoinNutJob]

seems like china believe the news

[pand70]

How can we spin this into being a good thing?

By making a giant circlejerk saying from one to the other that this is a good thing! It kind of works so far 

[eXme]

private people can use bitcoins its only for bussines.. but they forgot to mention that haha what a nice speculation.. im taking a credit tomorrow in the bank, just need to wait untill it drops more muahahaha 

[AnonyMint]

It isn't FUD.  

It's real, alipay and the other payment providers and financial institutions are not allowed to deal with the bitcoin exchanges anymore.

I told you guys the legal document was open for interpretation.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=358368.0;all

Financial institutions deal with currency, and the Chinese government wants to keep it that way.

Bitcoin Exchanges and related companies deal with Bitcoin, and the Chinese government wants to proceed this way.


It's only clarification of separation between THESE businesses, not Bitcoin in general.

Agreed. A big part of the motivation is probably to stem potential capital flight out of China via bitcoin. Not there was likely much of that going on, but the gov probably wants to get out ahead of matters. Which means eliminating layers of financial intermediaries that could obscure identity (hence why "payment processors" might not be allowed to interact with bitcoin exchanges, but banks are ok).

All in all, it will probably indeed dampen the mania to some degree, but it's by no means as hostile as many are making it out to be.

Bingo!

Good to see you all are starting to understand finally.

For the record, we can fully expect governments everywhere to demand the equivalent of AML/KYC, which is more or less what this China action likely amounts to (though more rigidly). That AML/KYC status-quo permeates the global financial system; not just the US.

Yes and they will collect capital gains and/or VAT taxes on Bitcoin appreciation as an investment even if you are trying to use it as a currency (medium-of-exchange), thus it can not be a currency.

But developers of altcoins will rise to the opportunity and create truly anonymous coins. Anoncoin isn't it. Bitcoin isn't it. I will soon publish a whitepaper to explain why.

In short, you need to understand that Chaum mix-nets (e.g. Tor) are vulnerable to timing attacks, and even honeypotting given only 3 hops. They NSA and spy agencies in each country are likely still able to track your identity much of the time. And VPNs are likely all controlled/backdoored/hacked/rooted by the NSA. And exchanging through mixers and altcoins does not obscure your IP address no matter how many times you do it. Also even across these proxies, your identity is tracked in other ways such as browser plugins trojans, cookies, patterns of internet uses such as favored search terms, facbook et al tracking the way you type, etc..

Even if you are one of the lucky few who manages to keep your anonymity assured by careful mix of the above methods, the point is the majority will not. And thus it is very simple for the government to make your anonymous coins practically unspendable and useless. The government simply sends a tax bill and put criminal liability for all activity on a coin since mining until present, until those non-anonymous coins holders (or former holders) can provide the identity of whom they bought from and sold to.

Thus all users will become afraid and only accept coins and sell coins from those who provide their complete identity. Thus only a coin with widespread assured anonymity would be able to become a currency and remain immune to government control.

So clearly you can see that you never will have anonymity with Bitcoin nor any current altcoins. Thus Bitcoin and the current altcoins can never be currencies (unless the governments take them over somehow and make them legal tender), and the government will essentially control them.

Note one means anonymity I proposed thus far are a new way to do physical crypto-coins.

[Eri]

Just to clarify, coindesk has rumor for a source, and that rumor had a friend of a friend for a source. whereas when the chinese govt announced they banned govt owned/licensed banks and banking services from using bitcoin they did so via *4* different parts of govt, compared to coindesks 1 rumor.


most translations regarding the 'ban' are horribly wrong and being spread everywhere.

this one sums it up fairly well. Look for the others before believing this crap people are spreading.

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-china-statement-interpretation/

[Anotheranonlol]

yesterdays rumours was forecast for some time;

You can read "中国P2P借贷服务行业白皮书(2013)"  (lending services whitepaper) where details are given

news source:

First Financial is part of the new Center for Financial Research Institute of First Financial, founded in October 2012 in Beijing, working on financial reform and innovation, the rise and development of emerging financial sector. Internet banking is one of the main directions of research, but also the "Internet banking book" The main positioning. In this area, the new Center for Financial Research CBN will be launched P2P, all chips, mobile payments research reports, bitcoins, financial vertical search, online communities finance, asset online trading, as well as to explore the Internet and other aspects of financial regulation

It is scientific and logical to sum up experiences, find problems and develop proper regulatory measures when an industry has grown to an economy of a certain scale

http://english.creditease.cn/pressroom/PressRelease/2013/0719/84.html

A quoute from Li Jun at China Internet Financial Forum, october 2013

"On November to December this year, we will release five new topics, the first one is the theory and practice of Internet financial framework, and the second is to raise the public's White Paper, the data also do a final check. The third is Bitcoin - open trials currency."

Existing laws and regulations for virtual currency is not yet fully applicable to bitcoin, they are in a grey area, it was talked about before with few high profile recommending. very much the same boat we were previously/currently in with fincen guidance, sec/cftc oversight with these governmental bodies trying to wrap their heads around who regulates what in crypto currency space, what box to put it in. First notice was due and after recent big reports of big losses in bitcoin (fraudulent securities, exchange thefts, hacks) both domestic and overseas would push them to offer notice about high risk investment.

http://english.caixin.com/2013-07-04/100551435.html local police give out standard issue like this too

Guangzhou Police advise how to prevent the use of "Bitcoin" The new fraud --- http://www.gdga.gov.cn/jwzx/gdjx/gzsj/201312/t20131217_693891.html
Jiangsu Public Security Police Tips Wary of using the "Bitcoin" for fraud http://www.jsga.gov.cn/www/jsga/2010/jfts-mb_a391311259399.htm
Ningbo public security network Wary of using the "Bitcoin" new scams http://www.gongan.ningbo.gov.cn/jwpd/dtxx.jsp?aid=59072
Wary of using the "Bitcoin" for fraud Taizhou City Public Security Bureau

'on the online game virtual currency transaction management notice' This is not Qcoin, t's decentralised all will be advised of that, can shutter exchanges, block international and third party processors at gfw, cut off 3rd party payment processors, but OTC & p2p marketplaces will spring up and will be driven underground- unregulated this is the shadow economy.. there will always be a demand for a store of value and means of getting rmb out of country, now exchanges they have direct to bank and requiring documentation not at all unlike AML KYC, everyone knows this is exciting new development and truly international monetary system without borders introduce artifiial scarcity will be bad mode.. and you can only slow things, stunt the speculators who have caused such big rise recently with 0% trade but not kill once the cat is out of the bag

todays announcement from OKCoin,backs up same sentiment

http://ww1.sinaimg.cn/bmiddle/cea0aaccjw1ebmp8v0sctj20c81e9tey.jpg

some excerpts from it;

Today, the Central Bank provided there is no doubt that this crazy splashed with cold water, as a trading platform, OKCoin think this madness will end up ruining the industry and 0% fee significantly reduces transaction costs, facilitates such speculation.

OKCoin want to tie in with the Central Bank, bitcoin healthier development, charging very low fees, high cost of speculation, let coins down to reasonable. We will charge fees to all coins and the community, and support the research and development of safer bitcoin wallet.

We love beautiful mathematical design bitcoin, bitcoins lofty ideals of faith, care of this social experiment is our bounden duty"

who would you guess recently propose the idea of tying in exclusively to central bank, mandatory fees, and safer wallets..and for what reasons  

insiders speculate that the central bank has asked banks and CUP (China UnionPay) bitcoin trading **platform shall provide prepaid services**, so that led to a number of third-party trading platform stop recharging services

source: (第一财经) First Financial

ps there is new cny exchange launched by ex fb & goldman sachs https://www.bihang.com/market/

also for more forecast on p2p lending

https://doc.research-and-analytics.csfb.com/docView?language=ENG&source=emfromsendlink&format=PDF&document_id=1010517251&extdocid=1010517251_1_eng_pdf&serialid=VLRQ4TgNxWzk%2FTvHinuua6Xm4ULQYuKKG73B%2FntsRZo%3D

http://www.celent.com/reports/future-p2p-lending-china

[EvilPanda]

Nice to see another chinese exchange Finaly some info from the East that doesn't look fake.

[Its About Sharing]

Well, something is going on, look at fiatleak - http://fiatleak.dyndns.org/

For close to an hour 1 BITCOIN HAS BEEN BOUGHT IN CHINA. Over 800 in the USA. Normally China is double us.

IAS

[BTCisthefuture]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't feel this is THAT big of a deal. On exchanges like btcchina you have the option of making payment with a chinese bank account or a 3rd party payment provider like Tenpay. I might be wrong but I believe using your bank account was the cheaper option anyways,  and most Chinese people should already have a bank account IMO.  Is it positive news, no it's not. Does it stop people from buying selling BTC on exchanges though, no it doesn't, they can still use banks to make depoists/withdrawls in RMB.

Just my 2 cents.


It does seem though like China is working hard to make sure people don't/can't use bitcoin as a currency and it's only used as an investment/commidity. From banning companies from providing services in exchange for bitcoin, to banning banks from dealing in it, to now banning payment processors it makes it pretty cut and dry IMO that you aren't going to see a day anytime soon where it's common to go into a store in China and buy something with bitcoin. At least not legally.

[hilariousandco]

It's incredible how a rumour or good/bad news can affect the price of currencies (and also stocks & shares etc). It's really quite alarming too, especially when the information can turn out to be false or inaccurate.

[Anotheranonlol]

It's incredible how a rumour or good/bad news can affect the price of currencies (and also stocks & shares etc). It's really quite alarming too, especially when the information can turn out to be false or inaccurate.

especially with the case of overseas news it seems to take people some time to intepret, (or misintepret) translate, package neatly into reddit frontpage with suitable headline and cause a panic or buy surge, then people will rush to buy or sell spotting the drastic movement and cause a snowball effect, I had noticed there seems to be delayed reaction of 1-9 hours usually.. baidu news was good example of this- price was actually dropping at first until many hours later..which can be unnerving if you buy or sell instantly upon hearing news  to increase position and watch things go in opposite directions, in this case better to set order and log off for some time, it's almost always filled.

[Piper67]

It's incredible how a rumour or good/bad news can affect the price of currencies (and also stocks & shares etc). It's really quite alarming too, especially when the information can turn out to be false or inaccurate.

Actually, it's not incredible at all, it's perfectly reasonable. Most people don't understand Bitcoin. They buy some because it has been going up in price, but they're still extremely jittery about it. Markets are fickle by nature, but in the case of Bitcoin that's twice so, and in the case of Bitcoin in a new market (China, India) where people truly don't understand it, it's thrice so.

Give it time, China has to go through its own equivalent of the MtGox crash of 2011 before they come to realise Bitcoin is a lot more than a price on a ticker tape.

[EvilPanda]

It's incredible how a rumour or good/bad news can affect the price of currencies (and also stocks & shares etc). It's really quite alarming too, especially when the information can turn out to be false or inaccurate.

Actually, it's not incredible at all, it's perfectly reasonable. Most people don't understand Bitcoin. They buy some because it has been going up in price, but they're still extremely jittery about it. Markets are fickle by nature, but in the case of Bitcoin that's twice so, and in the case of Bitcoin in a new market (China, India) where people truly don't understand it, it's thrice so.

Give it time, China has to go through its own equivalent of the MtGox crash of 2011 before they come to realise Bitcoin is a lot more than a price on a ticker tape.

The human psychology of going with the flow and following the masses is the problem here. Unfortunately it's impossible to persuade them to calm down and take profit. To understand it just watch the black friday mob. If they just stood in line and entered one by one there would be no injuries and they'd get in faster, instead they try to go all at once blocking the doors and fighting the staff.

[ImI]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't feel this is THAT big of a deal. On exchanges like btcchina you have the option of making payment with a chinese bank account or a 3rd party payment provider like Tenpay. I might be wrong but I believe using your bank account was the cheaper option anyways,  and most Chinese people should already have a bank account IMO.  Is it positive news, no it's not. Does it stop people from buying selling BTC on exchanges though, no it doesn't, they can still use banks to make depoists/withdrawls in RMB.

Just my 2 cents.


It does seem though like China is working hard to make sure people don't/can't use bitcoin as a currency and it's only used as an investment/commidity. From banning companies from providing services in exchange for bitcoin, to banning banks from dealing in it, to now banning payment processors it makes it pretty cut and dry IMO that you aren't going to see a day anytime soon where it's common to go into a store in China and buy something with bitcoin. At least not legally.

exactly, and of course it brings up the question if the bank account payment option is also going to be banned in the near future.

[Exther]

If this is true there won't be many ways to get bitcoins. Basically just cash in person. Sure, you can take bank transfers, but that will be illegal.

[Its About Sharing]

Well, Lucano mentioned this link in his thread. Not exactly what has been said: http://tech.sina.com.cn/it/2013-12-17/01139011174.shtml#483253-tsina-1-18627-1cf60a7c37a7bc296a2ba7aba0120190

Rough Google Translation: Thoughts?

Sina Technology
Sina Technology > Industry > Bitcoin : the future of speculative bubbles or financial topic > Text
Bank of interviews with third-party payment bitcoin risk prevention
At 01:13 on December 17 2013 First Financial Daily

Yan Xiangjun

"The central bank regulations third party payment institution shall not provide hosting bitcoin trading site for the trading business ." Yesterday afternoon , the central bank called third-party payment companies meeting revealed the news.

"First Financial Daily" reporters learned exclusively , December 5 issued "on guard against the risk of Bitcoin notice" ( the "Notice " ) Following the central bank again yesterday , " attack" , interviews with more than 10 third-party payment companies relevant person in charge , it may not be explicitly requested to Bitcoin , Wright credits (LTC) and other trading sites offer payment and settlement business.

In less than two weeks time , the central bank even out "two trick" to prevent the risk of Bitcoin , and convey the spirit of the meeting is to be interpreted as " drastic " Many Bitcoin insiders .

Third-party payment " three line"

A large third-party payment company , told reporters that the participants who , yesterday morning, more than 10 third-party payment companies convened by the central bank , in Beijing held a closed-door meeting . Such persons in an interview with this reporter revealed that the meeting , Deputy Director of the settlement payment was chaired by the Secretary golden week the central bank , every company has sent 1 to 2 participants stakeholders .

" Justice Week at the beginning of the meeting made ​​it clear that the meeting was not convened to discuss whether the companies about Bitcoin -related businesses can conduct , but to convey the attitude of senior central bank , which may not be the first third-party payment companies to bitcoin , Wright currency and other trading sites provide payment and settlement services ; Secondly, for payment institutions business cooperation has occurred should be lifted , the stock of money at the latest to complete the withdrawal before the Spring Festival , the new payment services may not occur ; third , strict implementation of the December 5 the central bank issued a " notice " . " these third-party payment companies told this reporter.

According to newspaper reporter to get a third-party payment companies participants recorded meeting minutes , the meeting , in addition to domestic regulations do not allow third-party payment agencies engaged in related businesses bitcoins , the central bank will also be after studying the relevant requirements for access in the territory of Bitcoin -related businesses overseas payment mechanism.

After Golden Week convey relevant spiritual , individual companies have made ​​the payment that he will strictly enforce the above three requirements. But it is worth noting that one of the world 's most active trading site BTCC ( bitcoin China ) as well as Bitcoin , Wright currency trading site OKCOIN have third-party payment agencies from the original co- pay through fiscal replaced by another third-party payment companies , meanwhile, have users complained that two sites are currently only using money paid through withdrawals , but not through its recharge.

"Alipay has not any bitcoin trading site had business cooperation, " Alipay stakeholders in an interview with this reporter , said , "If investors find recharge channels Alipay , you need to be alert to whether the other individual accounts, if really is a personal account, the investor must be aware of the risks . "

There Bitcoin Insiders believe that the contents of the central bank from yesterday's meeting , the central bank for risk prevention efforts may result in a larger bitcoin , but he also expressed puzzled , because this might make the original line open and transparent Bitcoin trading platform is transferred to the ground, the difficulty of monitoring will also rise.

Bitcoin bleak future in China ?

" Come after " notice " is issued, we are in this thing to worry about third-party payment will not do it , did not think of a prophecy ." Bitcoin transaction , a person in charge after hearing the news of the newspaper Reporter said.

After the "notice" issued by the vast majority of people in the industry believe that the " caliber looser " or even " a regulatory innovation " is different , the spirit of the meeting of the central bank to bitcoin industry obviously caused some blow. Many industry insiders have said that bitcoin future development of the situation in China worrying , will choose different levels of " escape" , or transferred to offshore trading platform Bitcoin transactions.

Earlier, the central bank's " notice" had explicitly requested at this stage of financial institutions and payment institutions shall not conduct business associated with bitcoins are not allowed to bitcoin for a product or service pricing , may not be sold or traded as a central counterparty bitcoin not covered with Bitcoin -related insurance business or insurance bitcoins into range. After the "notice" is issued, although Bitcoin market has movement fell short , but soon that recover "lost ."

Yesterday 's meeting will have much impact on prices bitcoins is still unknown, but as of press time newspaper reporter , BTCC Bitcoin price has fallen from yesterday's highest 5335 yuan to 4600 yuan , a decrease of 15%.

[/size]

[enric]

If this is true there won't be many ways to get bitcoins. Basically just cash in person. Sure, you can take bank transfers, but that will be illegal.

There is zero prove and zero motivation about bank transfers going to be illegal. Bank account are well validated and linked to a real person, So its an easy way to identity control for money laundering.
As a commodity its 100% legal, to do a transfer to buy it, just like any other commodity.

[hilariousandco]

It's incredible how a rumour or good/bad news can affect the price of currencies (and also stocks & shares etc). It's really quite alarming too, especially when the information can turn out to be false or inaccurate.

Actually, it's not incredible at all, it's perfectly reasonable. Most people don't understand Bitcoin. They buy some because it has been going up in price, but they're still extremely jittery about it. Markets are fickle by nature, but in the case of Bitcoin that's twice so, and in the case of Bitcoin in a new market (China, India) where people truly don't understand it, it's thrice so.

The human psychology of going with the flow and following the masses is the problem here. Unfortunately it's impossible to persuade them to calm down and take profit. To understand it just watch the black friday mob. If they just stood in line and entered one by one there would be no injuries and they'd get in faster, instead they try to go all at once blocking the doors and fighting the staff.

That's what I find incredible about it. The naivety and stupidity of people continually blows my mind. If it wasn't for idiots panic selling BTC wouldn't be where it's at right now.

[BitCoinNutJob]

looks like coindesk was right after all

[jeppe]

im surprised to see bitcoin still at 600 thought it would go much lower !! like 250s

[Its About Sharing]

4X + as many coins going into China compared to USA right now. http://fiatleak.com/
Absolutely amazing to watch this for a while. Looks like money is once again flowing into China BIG.

[hilariousandco]

im surprised to see bitcoin still at 600 thought it would go much lower !! like 250s

Why did you think it would go lower? Or is this just wishful thinking  ?

4X + as many coins going into China compared to USA right now. http://fiatleak.com/
Absolutely amazing to watch this for a while. Looks like money is once again flowing into China BIG.

I wonder how many coins are coming out of China?

[Joopii]

What can you buy with bitcoins? Drugs, and maybe a gun, that's about it.

It used to be that you could only get drugs, guns and illegal stuff only with Bitcoins, but it has grow so much lately that i buy almost everything (even legal stuff) online with Bitcoins and it seems to be growing very fast.

[MikeyVeez]

http://www.coindesk.com/china-bans-payment-companies-working-bitcoin-exchanges-sources-claim/

No kidding.  China's stance against bitcoin has just moved from 'firm' to 'outrageous'.  This is going to have a serious effect for a few months.  But who cares?  Can't stop bitcoin with these stupid laws.  You'll just disadvantage your country's economy.  Bitcoin is coming whether they like it or not.  The rest of the world will carry on without china for a while.  I didn't like the dominate position they were working themselves into last month anyway.  I for one am glad they put that fire out.

Next week I am going to buy some bitcoin on heavy discount.  All those Chinese who paid $1,200 are going to be taking $400 from me.  By March, we'll all be right back up to $1,000!!!  What a steal. 

Yes and without America and without Europe and without every developed nation in the world. You think 3rd world countries can afford $1000/btc prices?

[luqash3]

Any paper note or other currency including bitcoin is worth according to its acceptability but as recently china is taking strong actions against the usage of bitcoin, so eventually it may crash causing all the momentum it gained in recent days to disappear with a blink of an eye. In short we may say lesser it is accepted lesser it worth.