[RESOLVED] Another Transaction Gone Sour (dalamchops and Garrett Burgwardt)

[dalamchops]

This is the original sales thread.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=37372.0

Here's from the beginning to the end. Garrett can feel free to add in any important details i've missed.

Pretty much we agreed on a sale price of 62BTC (without ssd). 50 BTC upfront, and 12 BTC upon USPS receiving it. That went smoothly.

Garrett received laptop today, sent an email to me saying there are vertical lines on the screen (assuming this happened during postage, i used the laptop up until the moment i took out the ssd and packed it). He sent me some pictures, and he was accurate. He demanded either 30BTC to fix the screen (cost of radiance screen), or a full refund of the laptop + 2 BTC for shipping.

I specifically asked for a picture with a white background.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2984/img20110825193558.jpg

The reason for that is if you look in the original post, there was a piece of dust under the screen that i specifically mentioned to the buyer, to accurately describe the condition to the potential buyer. I wanted Garrett to find me the dust (very visible in my pictures) so i can confirm we are talking about the same screen. I also added that i was fully ready to pay $200 + 2.23BTC (all i have in btc atm) to help alleviate the cost, but i would not cover the entire cost because I was not at fault because we are still assuming that the damage occurred during shipping (trentzb can attest to how i package things, sold him a laptop).

He then replied saying that he actually opened the screen and tried to clean the dust off. Now that's where the advice is needed.

There's absolutely no proof that he can provide to prove that he didn't damage the screen by trying to clean the dust. He admitted to the screen being tampered with. To me, that automatically tells me that i absolutely should not take the laptop back (which i won't) since it's been messed with. However i am still willing to send $150 (half the cost to fix) to Garrett so he can try to get a screen.

I am asking for advice on what i should do.

[1714918532]

1714918532

[dalamchops]

Sounds like HE broke it, you owe nothing.

Thx. Obviously i told him about this thread, and i want the public to hear his side of the story before we conclude everything.

[thavok]

Agreed if he opened the screen after deliver he broke it he bought it.

[Stefanie Andrea]

He broke it & you don't owe anything.

[Hollie]

You don't owe him anything.

He broke it himself after delivery.

[Garrett Burgwardt]

I'll agree with that chain of events, for the most part.

After seeing this thread I went through my phone looking to see if any of the junk pictures I took when I first was documenting the screen had the speck of dust (which is a great identifier for the laptop, btw   )

Found this one, which may help out. Note that I did not open the laptop, simply popped the plastic sheet that is in front of the screen off to see if there was something between it and the screen that was causing the lines. Unfortunately, there weren't, and I didn't touch the screen aside from a very gentle wipe with a fiber free cloth.

https://i.imgur.com/yXEXr.jpg

I blame shipping, as according to the pictures that were taken before shipping it didn't have this problem. Thus the onus is on dalamchops to either refund me shipping and the purchase price of the laptop, or pay for a new screen, which I am willing to accept as 30 BTC despite the lower price of BTC at the moment.

-Garrett

[dalamchops]

Whatever you pointed out as the spec of dust is of different color and size to the original pictures i showed. Regardless, there's no way to tell if that picture is before or after you opened it.


http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2158/imag0099h.jpg
http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/3931/imag0100tj.jpg

[kookiekrak]

where in gods name are you guys getting the price of a screen replacement from?

these things should only be max 150$ from ebay, not 30 btc worth...

here's one i found:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-ENVY-14-14-5-HD-SCREEN-REPLACEMENT-LCD-TFT-PANEL-/270736121956?pt=UK_Computing_LaptopAccess_RL&hash=item3f09216064

and imo, you guys should split the price of the screen. everyone knows the risks of shipping a laptop, and the blame lies with neither one of you.

[dalamchops]

where in gods name are you guys getting the price of a screen replacement from?

these things should only be max 150$ from ebay, not 30 btc worth...

here's one i found:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-ENVY-14-14-5-HD-SCREEN-REPLACEMENT-LCD-TFT-PANEL-/270736121956?pt=UK_Computing_LaptopAccess_RL&hash=item3f09216064

and imo, you guys should split the price of the screen. everyone knows the risks of shipping a laptop, and the blame lies with neither one of you.

The screen is a radiance display 1600x900 no longer manufactured. Price is $300 for a used one. Like in OP, i'm still ready to pitch in half for a screen DESPITE everyone saying that i shouldn't.

[rokh]

If it's USPS's fault, one of you might be able to get some money out of them for mis-handling it.

PS: Sucks to see you get 2(that i've seen) transactions that went bad, but cheer up, you can't have bad luck with transactions forever

[kookiekrak]

are the lines really bad? cause if not, then theres no real point in replacing it.

[dalamchops]

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2984/img20110825193558.jpg

These are the lines if looking at the entire screen. I'd say it's pretty bad.

[kookiekrak]

damn. i'd say split the cost of the new screen.

dont bother with trying to file any claims with usps. i was RMA'ing a 300$ psu and it got stolen in transit even with tracking. they told me to call back two weeks later to file a claim and when I did, they told me all they could do is look out for it. worthless people

[trentzb]

I specifically requested (and paid more for) USPS insurance for the laptop dalamchops sold/shipped me. Fortunately I didn't need to file a claim and yes dalamchops packaged and shipped (with insurance) the laptop superbly. No complaints with the transaction.

It's too bad that the middleman/carrier can cause such a problem between two upstanding members of the community and suffer no liability of their own.

Kudos to dalamchops for the offer to make things right with Garrett despite recently losing some BTC to that other guy.

[Garrett Burgwardt]

Like I said, I agree it's USPS' fault. The packaging seemed a bit light when I got it (as in, the box the laptop was in was right up against the top of the box with half a sheet of bubble wrap around it), but I've shipped worse that got through fine (before I joined these forums, don't worry).

I still take issue with only half of the screen coming from dalamchops - he's the one that will get the USPS claim if I understand their form properly, and he's the shipping party, so the onus on protection is his.

Not only that, but he offered more before I told him I had checked to make sure it wasn't something simple to fix, with a simple unclipping of the screen protector. That's like saying it's my fault the laptop is broken for opening the ram slot on the bottom.

-Garrett

[dalamchops]

Like I said, I agree it's USPS' fault. The packaging seemed a bit light when I got it (as in, the box the laptop was in was right up against the top of the box with half a sheet of bubble wrap around it), but I've shipped worse that got through fine (before I joined these forums, don't worry).

I still take issue with only half of the screen coming from dalamchops - he's the one that will get the USPS claim if I understand their form properly, and he's the shipping party, so the onus on protection is his.

Not only that, but he offered more before I told him I had checked to make sure it wasn't something simple to fix, with a simple unclipping of the screen protector. That's like saying it's my fault the laptop is broken for opening the ram slot on the bottom.

-Garrett

The problem is that, i was alleviated of all the blame/responsibility the moment you opened up the screen. For most laptop manufacturer, if you mess with anything besides hard drive and ram, u would've immediately voided any warranty. I think i am being way more than fair for offering to cover half the cost of the screen. Most agreed that i shouldn't even do anything at all.

[deslok]

File for the usps claim if they give you anything use the entirety of it towards the screen, if it doesn't cover the cost of a new screen since you two agree that it happened during shipping split the cost between the two of you. If it does cover the entire cost split what's left. If they don't give you anything I have to say i've never heard of poping something off the screen without dismantling the bezel at the very least the pressure to the side of a lcd could rupture some of the lines vertically as weak ones collapse to account for the added pressure and have to say that garrett is soley responsible for that.

[Garrett Burgwardt]

But I didn't open the screen - I'll take a video of this if I have to.

I opened the top lid of the computer, the front of which is a piece of thin flexible plastic - to remove it all I had to do was slide a fingernail between the two halves, even easier than opening something with screws tbh. No screws were touched, no adhesive dealt with and no pressure put on any of the screen. Only a complete imbecile would be able to damage the screen in the process. The whole sheet of plastic just bent forward a bit, I gently wiped at both the smudge of dust and the dead pixels to confirm that they were a problem with the screen and not a liquid or dirt or something between the two layers, and snapped the assembly back together.

If I'd opened the actual unit, ie removed screws or separated any components, I would agree with you, but I didn't, and let me remind you that this problem existed before I did anything with the laptop. I can't prove that of course, but my word should carry some weight, either as a long time member of these forums or as a trader with many good references behind him.

@deslok see above, yes I had to separate the bezel, but it required no pressure.

[rokh]

Used computers are a murky subject, so I'll just say that even seperating the bezel would have voided a new laptop's warranty from any manufacturer(except one very specific manufacturer).

[deslok]

Why don't you two try and file the claim first before sitting here assigning blame this fighting may all be a waste of effort.

[deslok]

Used computers are a murky subject, so I'll just say that even seperating the bezel would have voided a new laptop's warranty from any manufacturer(except one very specific manufacturer).

On this note i don't know what manufacturer you're thinking of but i can dismantle my entire thinkpad without voiding the warentee every part is avilable as a CRU

[dalamchops]

Used computers are a murky subject, so I'll just say that even seperating the bezel would have voided a new laptop's warranty from any manufacturer(except one very specific manufacturer).

On this note i don't know what manufacturer you're thinking of but i can dismantle my entire thinkpad without voiding the warentee every part is avilable as a CRU

Pretty much all consumer lines. Business class laptops are a totally different story (caters to companies having their own IT guys)

I am just trying to figure out why Garrett thinks i am responsible for the entire cost of the damage, unless someone can tell me how $150 is not more than fair.

[Garrett Burgwardt]

Why don't you two try and file the claim first before sitting here assigning blame this fighting may all be a waste of effort.

I can agree to that - file claim, see how that shakes out, extra reimbursement later?

I am just trying to figure out why Garrett thinks i am responsible for the entire cost of the damage.

Simply that the laptop arrived in a damaged state, you are responsible for packaging and shipping damages, and should have insured the package to avoid problems such as this.

-Garrett

[dalamchops]

Why don't you two try and file the claim first before sitting here assigning blame this fighting may all be a waste of effort.

No insurance was purchased at addition expense.

[Garrett Burgwardt]

Why don't you two try and file the claim first before sitting here assigning blame this fighting may all be a waste of effort.

No insurance was purchased at addition expense.

AFAIK USPS gives 250 USD worth of insurance with every package, whether you pay extra or not.

[pbj sammich]

file the USPS claim, couldn't possibly hurt

I do agree that if there was a problem with the screen Garrett probably should have just stopped right then and there and notified dalamchops. That being said, barring USPS stepping up and paying for the damage, 50% seems fair on dalamchops part

[dalamchops]

Why don't you two try and file the claim first before sitting here assigning blame this fighting may all be a waste of effort.

I can agree to that - file claim, see how that shakes out, extra reimbursement later?

I am just trying to figure out why Garrett thinks i am responsible for the entire cost of the damage.

Simply that the laptop arrived in a damaged state, you are responsible for packaging and shipping damages, and should have insured the package to avoid problems such as this.

-Garrett

If you can prove that my careful packaging was not up to standards, then let me know. Insurance is something that is mutually agreed upon, not something that is added for free as a given.

[Hollie]

He declined/ not requested insurance thus he have to pay for the damages to the laptop

[Garrett Burgwardt]

I can't prove your packaging was poor because I didn't video the unpacking with today's newspaper in it, which I'm sure even then would barely be considered proof. I do have pictures of before I touched the screen, but apparently those aren't good enough. I tried something easy to do and safe to see if it was an easy problem to solve, and it wasn't, yet I'm being punished for that?

And for what it's worth, I did notify dalamchops about the screen before I opened it, I opened the bezel before he replied though, and the pictures I sent after that were missing the speck of dust (because again, I cleaned that while I was in there). I thought what I pointed out in the picture above was the dust but that could be wrong - what you can do is take a look at the exif data the pictures contain to see the time difference. Again, I can't prove this as much as you'd like because I didn't think it would be that big of a deal, or rather, I thought it was clear that this was a shipping problem and not something I did (why would I lie about breaking the screen to make him pay for it? I think my track record shows I'm an honest businessman and I wouldn't want to do something to jeopardize that).

-Garrett

EDIT: @Ninja, what? I did not ask for insurance because that is the shipper's responsibility. If asked whether I wanted it I would have certainly said yes, because it's all of what, 5 bucks?

[pbj sammich]

Why don't you two try and file the claim first before sitting here assigning blame this fighting may all be a waste of effort.

No insurance was purchased at addition expense.

AFAIK USPS gives 250 USD worth of insurance with every package, whether you pay extra or not.

it appears the only "free" insurance from the USPS is for Expedited or overnight packages and that is $100 free, it's on the FAQ at USPS

[Garrett Burgwardt]

Why don't you two try and file the claim first before sitting here assigning blame this fighting may all be a waste of effort.

No insurance was purchased at addition expense.

AFAIK USPS gives 250 USD worth of insurance with every package, whether you pay extra or not.

it appears the only "free" insurance from the USPS is for Expedited or overnight packages and that is $100 free, it's on the FAQ at USPS

Guess I stand corrected, was looking for that (Whenever I've shipped things they have told me that things were insured for 200 by default, but that could very well have been because I was shipping out of country.

[dalamchops]

I think i'll just leave the $150 offer up for 24 hours, you can decide to take it or not. I'm convinced that i shouldn't even do anything base on what everyone has said.

Please if anyone else think it's unfair of me, then please speak up.

[Garrett Burgwardt]

Thinking over this whole thing, sure, 50% each way is fine. I still contend that opening the bezel wouldn't void any sort of warranty and that the laptop screen was damaged in shipping, but it's not that big a deal in the long run. Dalamchops has been courteous for the most part and as far as I know has been honest this whole time, and I think he's a good trader. Someone who should buy insurance and/or use UPS, and it's unfortunate that I had to get a faulty product to learn this lesson, but what has happened happened.

-Garrett

And to Dalamchops - sorry you're having bad luck with transactions - hopefully they go better for you in the future. I made an offer to the guy on ebay and couldn't get the price lowered, but got 2 day shipping at the same price, you can send 150 to the email address I've been conversing with you with for your half. Ugh, paypal

[dalamchops]

Thinking over this whole thing, sure, 50% each way is fine. I still contend that opening the bezel wouldn't void any sort of warranty and that the laptop screen was damaged in shipping, but it's not that big a deal in the long run. Dalamchops has been courteous for the most part and as far as I know has been honest this whole time, and I think he's a good trader. Someone who should buy insurance and/or use UPS, and it's unfortunate that I had to get a faulty product to learn this lesson, but what has happened happened.

-Garrett

And to Dalamchops - sorry you're having bad luck with transactions - hopefully they go better for you in the future. I made an offer to the guy on ebay and couldn't get the price lowered, but got 2 day shipping at the same price, you can send 150 to the email address I've been conversing with you with for your half. Ugh, paypal

I will send you $160, to compensate for the fees, I am really trying to do what's right. I think we both learned a lesson to request (as a buyer), and offer (as a seller) insurance for something this delicate.

[dalamchops]

payment sent.

[Garrett Burgwardt]

If you send as a gift there shouldn't be fees, fyi

[dalamchops]

If you send as a gift there shouldn't be fees, fyi

it's out of my pocket both ways i do it. I'm just glad we found a reasonable resolution to this.

[indio007]

Years ago , I used to ship high end stuff (500K+). UPS has 1000 page manuals on how to pack stuff for shipping. Any deviation pretty much absolves them from liability.

UPS abuses packages. I watched a worker crack boxes on the side of our loading dock like he was cracking eggs. He was pissed cause they where heavy.

Computers have to be surrounded info foam with at least 3 1/2 inches internal clearance on all sides. They can not move inside at all.

I believe UPS charges $1.25/$100 and there might be a deductible.

Although I can't help to wonder why anyone would take the screen apart if it was already broken. What would the point be to clean a broken screen?

[Garrett Burgwardt]

Years ago , I used to ship high end stuff (500K+). UPS has 1000 page manuals on how to pack stuff for shipping. Any deviation pretty much absolves them from liability.

UPS abuses packages. I watched a worker crack boxes on the side of our loading dock like he was cracking eggs. He was pissed cause they where heavy.

Computers have to be surrounded info foam with at least 3 1/2 inches internal clearance on all sides. They can not move inside at all.

I believe UPS charges $1.25/$100 and there might be a deductible.

Although I can't help to wonder why anyone would take the screen apart if it was already broken. What would the point be to clean a broken screen?

Since this is resolved, this is just for fun;

again, I removed the cover on the screen to see if there was something between the protector and the screen that was causing the issue, and while I was there I swiped at the dust cause I may as well have since I was already in there - call me optimistic that I would fix it myself.

-Garrett

[indio007]

call me optimistic that I would fix it myself.

-Garrett

No worries. I have the same "issues". Obviously shipping ompanies aren't exactly gentle. I always get a kick out of "fragile" warnings.

They pretty much get ignored cause they are on every box! I had a shipping company actually shear the steel  bolts of an a Porche engine somehow.
Go figure.

[wildboy211]

I know this is already resolved, but heres my opinion anyways because i know some of you are broke and need two cents:
*Dalamchops should have have offered insurance - especially since its more value than $100 (good rule of thumb), if not offered, shouldve been included with shipping.
*Once Garret saw that something was wrong with the screen - shouldve dropped everything and dalamchops shouldve been notified.

I've been a internet sales manager (for businesses) for a few years now, selling everything from used to new stuff. I think how they resolved this is pretty fair - both paying half since IMO - they both are at fault for the reasons above. If dalamchops packaged the laptop like he packaged my video card i got from him yesterday, i say it was probably packaged pretty good, even though i know UPS and USPS thinks all of their packages are indestructible.

dalamchops, if i were you, i would use insurance on anything above $100 and either include it in the shipping cost, or ask the customer.
Garret, i would notify your seller of any issues if ANYTHING is even slightly different from described immediately.

These are just my opinions...

[dalamchops]

I know this is already resolved, but heres my opinion anyways because i know some of you are broke and need two cents:
*Dalamchops should have have offered insurance - especially since its more value than $100 (good rule of thumb), if not offered, shouldve been included with shipping.
*Once Garret saw that something was wrong with the screen - shouldve dropped everything and dalamchops shouldve been notified.

I've been a internet sales manager (for businesses) for a few years now, selling everything from used to new stuff. I think how they resolved this is pretty fair - both paying half since IMO - they both are at fault for the reasons above. If dalamchops packaged the laptop like he packaged my video card i got from him yesterday, i say it was probably packaged pretty good, even though i know UPS and USPS thinks all of their packages are indestructible.

dalamchops, if i were you, i would use insurance on anything above $100 and either include it in the shipping cost, or ask the customer.
Garret, i would notify your seller of any issues if ANYTHING is even slightly different from described immediately.

These are just my opinions...

Lol im sure we are both doing things differently from now on.