Paul Grignon Just made Bitcoin killer

[sublime5447]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWyHm7_IPTw&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkc3Bx2lmy0 this one is good.
http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/
http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm


For those that dont know Paul is the producer of money as debt. If you havent seen it check it out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8

I love it he is creating digital CURRENCY with a definable unit and an elastic supply.

I have been bitching about this for months around the forums. He didnt use the joule standard that I have been advocating for, but he is using a commodity basket standard. Very Cool.

Okay Bitcoin killer might not be quite accurate, but when this takes off (or something like it) bitcoin will officially be the mysapce of digital currency.  

[HairyMaclairy]

Can you summarise?  I am not very patient with long YouTube videos and gave up.

The only point I got was something about self issued debt. Not sure why anyone would agree to sell me a car on this basis.

[Ibian]

I find it curious that he has comments disabled. Anyway yeah I gave up too, and I enjoyed money as debt and other similar movies. Somehow my obfuscation sense is tingling...

[Anon136]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

[sublime5447]

Can you summarise?  I am not very patient with long YouTube videos and gave up.

The only point I got was something about self issued debt. Not sure why anyone would agree to sell me a car on this basis.

Summary,  coins with an elastic supply and definable unit. Basically real currency not this fake bitcoin shit.

[HairyMaclairy]

If it is elastic who decides to issue more?

The "borrower"?   If so, what stops me from borrowing the moon?

[kaito]

I find it curious that he has comments disabled. Anyway yeah I gave up too, and I enjoyed money as debt and other similar movies. Somehow my obfuscation sense is tingling...

Well I was gonna say 9 minutes isn't long but holy crap that seemed long. Boring presentation style, boring pace, no structure, useless utterances containing practically zero information on his "well-defined solution"...
and yeah, the comments are disabled because he would be called on it obviously.

[sublime5447]

If it is elastic who decides to issue more?

The "borrower"?   If so, what stops me from borrowing the moon?

No not the borrower the producer

[sublime5447]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

Yeah it has that he calls it Q

"Q is not a constant it is variable, units of measurement are not variable." - quote from me to Paul

True. Therefore, in my analysis, if we want to create a fair and stable value unit, the best that can be achieved is to define a "universal Q" as a constant, accepting that this can only ever be an arbitrary approximation of an indefinite variety of "other choices".

 I have chosen to use the RICI basket of 37 world commodities as Q.
This is rational because the necessities of agriculture, mining and energy are part of most people's "other choices".

Example: "You can't buy this hot tub because we won't have money left for the fuel bill or groceries to feed the kids."

Thus,  ultimately all discretionary purchases are evaluated against necessary purchases, no mater how poor or rich one might be.

Therefore, my proposal is that Q should consist of necessary purchases of the global population, which is what the RICI is designed to be.

Once we define Q, the fixed basket of necessities, we can then define a new value unit as the US dollar value of that fixed basket which, of course, includes energy.

This basket is a constant, assuming quality consistency of the products in the basket.

It 's US dollar value is defined by futures contracts in markets all over the world. No matter what happens to the US dollar, the new value unit still buys the same basket of global necessities.

The US dollar can be translated into any other currency in established markets, and replaced if necessary. This can continue until there is no national currency left to define the new value unit against.

 By then, if it ever happened, the stable value in real goods of this new unit would be well established in peoples minds and would be, as always, just as individually subjective and variable as the $20 bill was, blowin' in the wind.

"been looking for someone to develop a real digital currency with a definable unit and a elastic supply,"- quote from me to Paul

That is precisely what I have been working towards.

 

[Mike Christ]

I don't trust anyone who turns off ratings and comments; the only people who do this realize they'd be negatively impacted if they turned them on.

[sublime5447]

I find it curious that he has comments disabled. Anyway yeah I gave up too, and I enjoyed money as debt and other similar movies. Somehow my obfuscation sense is tingling...

Well I was gonna say 9 minutes isn't long but holy crap that seemed long. Boring presentation style, boring pace, no structure, useless utterances containing practically zero information on his "well-defined solution"...
and yeah, the comments are disabled because he would be called on it obviously.

watch the other videos and read over this http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm

[sublime5447]

I don't trust anyone who turns off ratings and comments; the only people who do this realize they'd be negatively impacted if they turned them on.

I have been chatting with Paul via email. I will ask him if he will enable comments and respond to questions, but Look over the links are read over his proposal

[HairyMaclairy]

If it is elastic who decides to issue more?

The "borrower"?   If so, what stops me from borrowing the moon?

No not the borrower the producer

Presumably the producer is the creator of the micro currency?  Ok what stops the producer from borrowing the moon and then defaulting / never producing?

[Anon136]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

Yeah it has that he calls it Q

"Q is not a constant it is variable, units of measurement are not variable." - quote from me to Paul

True. Therefore, in my analysis, if we want to create a fair and stable value unit, the best that can be achieved is to define a "universal Q" as a constant, accepting that this can only ever be an arbitrary approximation of an indefinite variety of "other choices".

 I have chosen to use the RICI basket of 37 world commodities as Q.
This is rational because the necessities of agriculture, mining and energy are part of most people's "other choices".

Example: "You can't buy this hot tub because we won't have money left for the fuel bill or groceries to feed the kids."

Thus,  ultimately all discretionary purchases are evaluated against necessary purchases, no mater how poor or rich one might be.

Therefore, my proposal is that Q should consist of necessary purchases of the global population, which is what the RICI is designed to be.

Once we define Q, the fixed basket of necessities, we can then define a new value unit as the US dollar value of that fixed basket which, of course, includes energy.

This basket is a constant, assuming quality consistency of the products in the basket.

It 's US dollar value is defined by futures contracts in markets all over the world. No matter what happens to the US dollar, the new value unit still buys the same basket of global necessities.

The US dollar can be translated into any other currency in established markets, and replaced if necessary. This can continue until there is no national currency left to define the new value unit against.

 By then, if it ever happened, the stable value in real goods of this new unit would be well established in peoples minds and would be, as always, just as individually subjective and variable as the $20 bill was, blowin' in the wind.

"been looking for someone to develop a real digital currency with a definable unit and a elastic supply,"- quote from me to Paul

That is precisely what I have been working towards.

 

Ok so what makes Q immune from the same criticisms he leveled against gold and bitcoin early on in the presentation?

[kaito]

read over this http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm

Thanks. At least that one has a bit of information.

Ignoring the erroneous first page, I have no idea what this has to do with Bitcoin.
He wants to use call options priced in ETF shares as money? I have good news for him, he can use Ripple for that.

[sublime5447]

read over this http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm

Thanks. At least that one has a bit of information.

Ignoring the erroneous first page, I have no idea what this has to do with Bitcoin.
He wants to use call options priced in ETF shares as money? I have good news for him, he can use Ripple for that.

I had the same thought. Only problem is ripple has a hard limit and doesnt have a mechanism to create new credits.

[kaito]

I had the same thought. Only problem is ripple has a hard limit and doesnt have a mechanism to create new credits.

Not sure what you mean. XRP is only needed for transaction fees on the Ripple network.

[HairyMaclairy]

read over this http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm

Thanks. At least that one has a bit of information.

Ignoring the erroneous first page, I have no idea what this has to do with Bitcoin.
He wants to use call options priced in ETF shares as money? I have good news for him, he can use Ripple for that.

I had the same thought. Only problem is ripple has a hard limit and doesnt have a mechanism to create new credits.

Unless they update the code. 

[HairyMaclairy]

To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?   

If the answer is "trust" them I'm out. 

[sublime5447]

To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?   

If the answer is "trust" them I'm out. 

The same thing that keeps every market honest. Feedback. Only producers with verifiable credit history will be allowed to issue credit. If the power company wants to issue me credits in exchange for my boat parts I think they are good for it, if they are not I will leave negative feedback.