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HairyMaclairy
Legendary
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Activity: 1414
Merit: 2174
Degenerate bull hatter & Bitcoin monotheist
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January 03, 2014, 11:43:01 PM |
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Can you summarise? I am not very patient with long YouTube videos and gave up.
The only point I got was something about self issued debt. Not sure why anyone would agree to sell me a car on this basis.
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Ibian
Legendary
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Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
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January 03, 2014, 11:46:06 PM |
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I find it curious that he has comments disabled. Anyway yeah I gave up too, and I enjoyed money as debt and other similar movies. Somehow my obfuscation sense is tingling...
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Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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Anon136
Legendary
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Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
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January 03, 2014, 11:56:11 PM |
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seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.
so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.
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Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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sublime5447 (OP)
Legendary
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Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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January 03, 2014, 11:56:11 PM |
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Can you summarise? I am not very patient with long YouTube videos and gave up.
The only point I got was something about self issued debt. Not sure why anyone would agree to sell me a car on this basis.
Summary, coins with an elastic supply and definable unit. Basically real currency not this fake bitcoin shit.
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HairyMaclairy
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1414
Merit: 2174
Degenerate bull hatter & Bitcoin monotheist
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January 04, 2014, 12:11:40 AM |
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If it is elastic who decides to issue more?
The "borrower"? If so, what stops me from borrowing the moon?
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kaito
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January 04, 2014, 12:16:46 AM |
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I find it curious that he has comments disabled. Anyway yeah I gave up too, and I enjoyed money as debt and other similar movies. Somehow my obfuscation sense is tingling...
Well I was gonna say 9 minutes isn't long but holy crap that seemed long. Boring presentation style, boring pace, no structure, useless utterances containing practically zero information on his "well-defined solution"... and yeah, the comments are disabled because he would be called on it obviously.
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sublime5447 (OP)
Legendary
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Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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January 04, 2014, 12:26:37 AM |
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If it is elastic who decides to issue more?
The "borrower"? If so, what stops me from borrowing the moon?
No not the borrower the producer
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sublime5447 (OP)
Legendary
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Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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January 04, 2014, 01:18:32 AM |
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seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.
so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.
Yeah it has that he calls it Q "Q is not a constant it is variable, units of measurement are not variable." - quote from me to Paul True. Therefore, in my analysis, if we want to create a fair and stable value unit, the best that can be achieved is to define a "universal Q" as a constant, accepting that this can only ever be an arbitrary approximation of an indefinite variety of "other choices".
I have chosen to use the RICI basket of 37 world commodities as Q. This is rational because the necessities of agriculture, mining and energy are part of most people's "other choices".
Example: "You can't buy this hot tub because we won't have money left for the fuel bill or groceries to feed the kids."
Thus, ultimately all discretionary purchases are evaluated against necessary purchases, no mater how poor or rich one might be.
Therefore, my proposal is that Q should consist of necessary purchases of the global population, which is what the RICI is designed to be.
Once we define Q, the fixed basket of necessities, we can then define a new value unit as the US dollar value of that fixed basket which, of course, includes energy.
This basket is a constant, assuming quality consistency of the products in the basket.
It 's US dollar value is defined by futures contracts in markets all over the world. No matter what happens to the US dollar, the new value unit still buys the same basket of global necessities.
The US dollar can be translated into any other currency in established markets, and replaced if necessary. This can continue until there is no national currency left to define the new value unit against.
By then, if it ever happened, the stable value in real goods of this new unit would be well established in peoples minds and would be, as always, just as individually subjective and variable as the $20 bill was, blowin' in the wind. "been looking for someone to develop a real digital currency with a definable unit and a elastic supply,"- quote from me to Paul That is precisely what I have been working towards.
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Mike Christ
aka snapsunny
Legendary
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Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
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January 04, 2014, 01:18:47 AM |
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I don't trust anyone who turns off ratings and comments; the only people who do this realize they'd be negatively impacted if they turned them on.
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sublime5447 (OP)
Legendary
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Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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January 04, 2014, 01:19:45 AM |
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I find it curious that he has comments disabled. Anyway yeah I gave up too, and I enjoyed money as debt and other similar movies. Somehow my obfuscation sense is tingling...
Well I was gonna say 9 minutes isn't long but holy crap that seemed long. Boring presentation style, boring pace, no structure, useless utterances containing practically zero information on his "well-defined solution"... and yeah, the comments are disabled because he would be called on it obviously. watch the other videos and read over this http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm
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sublime5447 (OP)
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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January 04, 2014, 01:21:36 AM |
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I don't trust anyone who turns off ratings and comments; the only people who do this realize they'd be negatively impacted if they turned them on.
I have been chatting with Paul via email. I will ask him if he will enable comments and respond to questions, but Look over the links are read over his proposal
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HairyMaclairy
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1414
Merit: 2174
Degenerate bull hatter & Bitcoin monotheist
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January 04, 2014, 01:32:23 AM |
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If it is elastic who decides to issue more?
The "borrower"? If so, what stops me from borrowing the moon?
No not the borrower the producer Presumably the producer is the creator of the micro currency? Ok what stops the producer from borrowing the moon and then defaulting / never producing?
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Anon136
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1217
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January 04, 2014, 01:36:19 AM |
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seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.
so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.
Yeah it has that he calls it Q "Q is not a constant it is variable, units of measurement are not variable." - quote from me to Paul True. Therefore, in my analysis, if we want to create a fair and stable value unit, the best that can be achieved is to define a "universal Q" as a constant, accepting that this can only ever be an arbitrary approximation of an indefinite variety of "other choices".
I have chosen to use the RICI basket of 37 world commodities as Q. This is rational because the necessities of agriculture, mining and energy are part of most people's "other choices".
Example: "You can't buy this hot tub because we won't have money left for the fuel bill or groceries to feed the kids."
Thus, ultimately all discretionary purchases are evaluated against necessary purchases, no mater how poor or rich one might be.
Therefore, my proposal is that Q should consist of necessary purchases of the global population, which is what the RICI is designed to be.
Once we define Q, the fixed basket of necessities, we can then define a new value unit as the US dollar value of that fixed basket which, of course, includes energy.
This basket is a constant, assuming quality consistency of the products in the basket.
It 's US dollar value is defined by futures contracts in markets all over the world. No matter what happens to the US dollar, the new value unit still buys the same basket of global necessities.
The US dollar can be translated into any other currency in established markets, and replaced if necessary. This can continue until there is no national currency left to define the new value unit against.
By then, if it ever happened, the stable value in real goods of this new unit would be well established in peoples minds and would be, as always, just as individually subjective and variable as the $20 bill was, blowin' in the wind. "been looking for someone to develop a real digital currency with a definable unit and a elastic supply,"- quote from me to Paul That is precisely what I have been working towards. Ok so what makes Q immune from the same criticisms he leveled against gold and bitcoin early on in the presentation?
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Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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kaito
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January 04, 2014, 03:23:03 AM |
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Thanks. At least that one has a bit of information. Ignoring the erroneous first page, I have no idea what this has to do with Bitcoin. He wants to use call options priced in ETF shares as money? I have good news for him, he can use Ripple for that.
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sublime5447 (OP)
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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January 04, 2014, 03:34:55 AM |
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Thanks. At least that one has a bit of information. Ignoring the erroneous first page, I have no idea what this has to do with Bitcoin. He wants to use call options priced in ETF shares as money? I have good news for him, he can use Ripple for that. I had the same thought. Only problem is ripple has a hard limit and doesnt have a mechanism to create new credits.
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kaito
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January 04, 2014, 03:44:50 AM |
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I had the same thought. Only problem is ripple has a hard limit and doesnt have a mechanism to create new credits.
Not sure what you mean. XRP is only needed for transaction fees on the Ripple network.
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HairyMaclairy
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1414
Merit: 2174
Degenerate bull hatter & Bitcoin monotheist
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January 04, 2014, 04:01:53 AM |
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Thanks. At least that one has a bit of information. Ignoring the erroneous first page, I have no idea what this has to do with Bitcoin. He wants to use call options priced in ETF shares as money? I have good news for him, he can use Ripple for that. I had the same thought. Only problem is ripple has a hard limit and doesnt have a mechanism to create new credits. Unless they update the code.
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HairyMaclairy
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1414
Merit: 2174
Degenerate bull hatter & Bitcoin monotheist
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January 04, 2014, 04:03:58 AM |
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To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?
If the answer is "trust" them I'm out.
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sublime5447 (OP)
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
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January 04, 2014, 04:10:41 AM |
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To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?
If the answer is "trust" them I'm out.
The same thing that keeps every market honest. Feedback. Only producers with verifiable credit history will be allowed to issue credit. If the power company wants to issue me credits in exchange for my boat parts I think they are good for it, if they are not I will leave negative feedback.
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