Paul Grignon Just made Bitcoin killer

[sublime5447]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWyHm7_IPTw&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkc3Bx2lmy0 this one is good.
http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/
http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm


For those that dont know Paul is the producer of money as debt. If you havent seen it check it out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8

I love it he is creating digital CURRENCY with a definable unit and an elastic supply.

I have been bitching about this for months around the forums. He didnt use the joule standard that I have been advocating for, but he is using a commodity basket standard. Very Cool.

Okay Bitcoin killer might not be quite accurate, but when this takes off (or something like it) bitcoin will officially be the mysapce of digital currency.  

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[HairyMaclairy]

Can you summarise?  I am not very patient with long YouTube videos and gave up.

The only point I got was something about self issued debt. Not sure why anyone would agree to sell me a car on this basis.

[Ibian]

I find it curious that he has comments disabled. Anyway yeah I gave up too, and I enjoyed money as debt and other similar movies. Somehow my obfuscation sense is tingling...

[Anon136]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

[sublime5447]

Can you summarise?  I am not very patient with long YouTube videos and gave up.

The only point I got was something about self issued debt. Not sure why anyone would agree to sell me a car on this basis.

Summary,  coins with an elastic supply and definable unit. Basically real currency not this fake bitcoin shit.

[HairyMaclairy]

If it is elastic who decides to issue more?

The "borrower"?   If so, what stops me from borrowing the moon?

[kaito]

I find it curious that he has comments disabled. Anyway yeah I gave up too, and I enjoyed money as debt and other similar movies. Somehow my obfuscation sense is tingling...

Well I was gonna say 9 minutes isn't long but holy crap that seemed long. Boring presentation style, boring pace, no structure, useless utterances containing practically zero information on his "well-defined solution"...
and yeah, the comments are disabled because he would be called on it obviously.

[sublime5447]

If it is elastic who decides to issue more?

The "borrower"?   If so, what stops me from borrowing the moon?

No not the borrower the producer

[sublime5447]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

Yeah it has that he calls it Q

"Q is not a constant it is variable, units of measurement are not variable." - quote from me to Paul

True. Therefore, in my analysis, if we want to create a fair and stable value unit, the best that can be achieved is to define a "universal Q" as a constant, accepting that this can only ever be an arbitrary approximation of an indefinite variety of "other choices".

 I have chosen to use the RICI basket of 37 world commodities as Q.
This is rational because the necessities of agriculture, mining and energy are part of most people's "other choices".

Example: "You can't buy this hot tub because we won't have money left for the fuel bill or groceries to feed the kids."

Thus,  ultimately all discretionary purchases are evaluated against necessary purchases, no mater how poor or rich one might be.

Therefore, my proposal is that Q should consist of necessary purchases of the global population, which is what the RICI is designed to be.

Once we define Q, the fixed basket of necessities, we can then define a new value unit as the US dollar value of that fixed basket which, of course, includes energy.

This basket is a constant, assuming quality consistency of the products in the basket.

It 's US dollar value is defined by futures contracts in markets all over the world. No matter what happens to the US dollar, the new value unit still buys the same basket of global necessities.

The US dollar can be translated into any other currency in established markets, and replaced if necessary. This can continue until there is no national currency left to define the new value unit against.

 By then, if it ever happened, the stable value in real goods of this new unit would be well established in peoples minds and would be, as always, just as individually subjective and variable as the $20 bill was, blowin' in the wind.

"been looking for someone to develop a real digital currency with a definable unit and a elastic supply,"- quote from me to Paul

That is precisely what I have been working towards.

 

[Mike Christ]

I don't trust anyone who turns off ratings and comments; the only people who do this realize they'd be negatively impacted if they turned them on.

[sublime5447]

I find it curious that he has comments disabled. Anyway yeah I gave up too, and I enjoyed money as debt and other similar movies. Somehow my obfuscation sense is tingling...

Well I was gonna say 9 minutes isn't long but holy crap that seemed long. Boring presentation style, boring pace, no structure, useless utterances containing practically zero information on his "well-defined solution"...
and yeah, the comments are disabled because he would be called on it obviously.

watch the other videos and read over this http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm

[sublime5447]

I don't trust anyone who turns off ratings and comments; the only people who do this realize they'd be negatively impacted if they turned them on.

I have been chatting with Paul via email. I will ask him if he will enable comments and respond to questions, but Look over the links are read over his proposal

[HairyMaclairy]

If it is elastic who decides to issue more?

The "borrower"?   If so, what stops me from borrowing the moon?

No not the borrower the producer

Presumably the producer is the creator of the micro currency?  Ok what stops the producer from borrowing the moon and then defaulting / never producing?

[Anon136]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

Yeah it has that he calls it Q

"Q is not a constant it is variable, units of measurement are not variable." - quote from me to Paul

True. Therefore, in my analysis, if we want to create a fair and stable value unit, the best that can be achieved is to define a "universal Q" as a constant, accepting that this can only ever be an arbitrary approximation of an indefinite variety of "other choices".

 I have chosen to use the RICI basket of 37 world commodities as Q.
This is rational because the necessities of agriculture, mining and energy are part of most people's "other choices".

Example: "You can't buy this hot tub because we won't have money left for the fuel bill or groceries to feed the kids."

Thus,  ultimately all discretionary purchases are evaluated against necessary purchases, no mater how poor or rich one might be.

Therefore, my proposal is that Q should consist of necessary purchases of the global population, which is what the RICI is designed to be.

Once we define Q, the fixed basket of necessities, we can then define a new value unit as the US dollar value of that fixed basket which, of course, includes energy.

This basket is a constant, assuming quality consistency of the products in the basket.

It 's US dollar value is defined by futures contracts in markets all over the world. No matter what happens to the US dollar, the new value unit still buys the same basket of global necessities.

The US dollar can be translated into any other currency in established markets, and replaced if necessary. This can continue until there is no national currency left to define the new value unit against.

 By then, if it ever happened, the stable value in real goods of this new unit would be well established in peoples minds and would be, as always, just as individually subjective and variable as the $20 bill was, blowin' in the wind.

"been looking for someone to develop a real digital currency with a definable unit and a elastic supply,"- quote from me to Paul

That is precisely what I have been working towards.

 

Ok so what makes Q immune from the same criticisms he leveled against gold and bitcoin early on in the presentation?

[kaito]

read over this http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm

Thanks. At least that one has a bit of information.

Ignoring the erroneous first page, I have no idea what this has to do with Bitcoin.
He wants to use call options priced in ETF shares as money? I have good news for him, he can use Ripple for that.

[sublime5447]

read over this http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm

Thanks. At least that one has a bit of information.

Ignoring the erroneous first page, I have no idea what this has to do with Bitcoin.
He wants to use call options priced in ETF shares as money? I have good news for him, he can use Ripple for that.

I had the same thought. Only problem is ripple has a hard limit and doesnt have a mechanism to create new credits.

[kaito]

I had the same thought. Only problem is ripple has a hard limit and doesnt have a mechanism to create new credits.

Not sure what you mean. XRP is only needed for transaction fees on the Ripple network.

[HairyMaclairy]

read over this http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm

Thanks. At least that one has a bit of information.

Ignoring the erroneous first page, I have no idea what this has to do with Bitcoin.
He wants to use call options priced in ETF shares as money? I have good news for him, he can use Ripple for that.

I had the same thought. Only problem is ripple has a hard limit and doesnt have a mechanism to create new credits.

Unless they update the code. 

[HairyMaclairy]

To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?   

If the answer is "trust" them I'm out. 

[sublime5447]

To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?   

If the answer is "trust" them I'm out. 

The same thing that keeps every market honest. Feedback. Only producers with verifiable credit history will be allowed to issue credit. If the power company wants to issue me credits in exchange for my boat parts I think they are good for it, if they are not I will leave negative feedback.

[User705]

To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?   

If the answer is "trust" them I'm out. 

The same thing that keeps every market honest. Feedback. Only producers with verifiable credit history will be allowed to issue credit. If the power company wants to issue me credits in exchange for my boat parts I think they are good for it, if they are not I will leave negative feedback.

What's defined as verifiable credit history?  Allowed by whom?

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

Cool, a guy who doesn't understand money or economics is making a Bitcoin-killer. Good luck with that.

[Hawker]

Can you summarise?  I am not very patient with long YouTube videos and gave up.

The only point I got was something about self issued debt. Not sure why anyone would agree to sell me a car on this basis.

The average adult reads prose text at 250 to 300 words per minute (of course, we are all above average here). The recommended speed for books on tape is 150 to 160 words per minute.  So its a useful rule of thumb that if there is no transcript, the video isn't worth watching

[Xav]

I love it he is creating digital CURRENCY with a definable unit and an elastic supply.

Interesting. Now I wonder what's the value of 1 BTC according this RICI-system, considering today's 12 million BTCs?

[HairyMaclairy]

To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?   

If the answer is "trust" them I'm out. 

The same thing that keeps every market honest. Feedback. Only producers with verifiable credit history will be allowed to issue credit. If the power company wants to issue me credits in exchange for my boat parts I think they are good for it, if they are not I will leave negative feedback.

In the real world I will insist that you pay in advance, give me a bank guarantee, irrevocable letter of credit or put funds into my lawyer's escrow account before I do business with you.  Feedback is overrated.

[cbeast]

congratulations! you invented the credit card.   

[johnyj]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

Value is all relative, but use money to count value will generate some stickiness. I guess just like mining, eventually everything's price will be decided by the electricity and time used

[johnyj]

Grignon's understanding is not very accurate: Commercial banks can not create credit money without enough base money at hand

[Anon136]

Grignon's understanding is not very accurate: Commercial banks can not create credit money without enough base money at hand

All they have to do is satisfy reserve ratio requirements. Usually that's about 10 to 1.

[Anon136]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

Value is all relative, but use money to count value will generate some stickiness. I guess just like mining, eventually everything's price will be decided by the electricity and time used

Sickness doesn't have to be generated, it is the natural state of the universe, some choices can mitigate it, but none can ever eliminate it.

Value to an individual is relative sure, of course. But by pricing those relative valuations with a common unit of account it becomes possible to gain an understanding of what sorts of trade offs in the deployment of scarce resources maximize utility for those individuals as per their own relative valuations.

[johnyj]

Grignon's understanding is not very accurate: Commercial banks can not create credit money without enough base money at hand

All they have to do is satisfy reserve ratio requirements. Usually that's about 10 to 1.

And most of the time they barely satisfy this requirement. When a crisis hit, they can't create credit money to buy themselves out of trouble, since most of their money is checkbook money which can not be used to create checkbook money

[Anon136]

Grignon's understanding is not very accurate: Commercial banks can not create credit money without enough base money at hand

All they have to do is satisfy reserve ratio requirements. Usually that's about 10 to 1.

And most of the time they barely satisfy this requirement. When a crisis hit, they can't create credit money to buy themselves out of trouble, since most of their money is checkbook money which can not be used to create checkbook money

they cant use their own checkbook money but the checkbook money they hold on deposit for others is considered as reserve.

[sublime5447]

Grignon's understanding is not very accurate: Commercial banks can not create credit money without enough base money at hand

All they have to do is satisfy reserve ratio requirements. Usually that's about 10 to 1.

And most of the time they barely satisfy this requirement. When a crisis hit, they can't create credit money to buy themselves out of trouble, since most of their money is checkbook money which can not be used to create checkbook money

Grignon gets it right, go read debunking economics by Steve Keen.. When you go to the bank and take out a loan the money is never there you are not borrowing other peoples savings. The money springs into existence out of thin air when you sign your name to the paper for the loan. If all debts public and private where to be paid off currency would no longer exist. Look at keens debt based modeling and learn about hyman minsky

To the haters we will see. I am not saying Pauls coin but it or something like it will make bitcoin irrelevant for transactions of anything other than black market goods or payment for lap dances. 

[Ibian]

Oh Satoshi please stop with the haters thing already. It's a stupid and very obvious way to try to discredit those who disagree with you, nevermind WHY they disagree. The dudes proposal doesn't make much sense to those in this thread so far, explain it better than he did or stfu.

[sublime5447]

Oh Satoshi please stop with the haters thing already. It's a stupid and very obvious way to try to discredit those who disagree with you, nevermind WHY they disagree. The dudes proposal doesn't make much sense to those in this thread so far, explain it better than he did or stfu.

It makes perfect sense.. It makes sense to me, I bet it makes sense to peter schiff, paul krugmon, alan greenspan, gary north, and the hundred others who have pointed out why bitcoin will never be a nations currency and isnt useful to replace government issued fiat or as the basis of an economy.

Pauls concept has the power to change the world bitcoin doesnt.
 

[kaito]

Pauls concept has the power to change the world bitcoin doesnt.

Except that bitcoin has already changed the world.

[Impaler]

Ok the flaws I see are myriad

The 'producers' who issue credit are doing two things issuing credit AND setting a completely arbitrary 'price' for their goods.  Nothing really links the value of their goods with how much credit 'units' they declare their goods to be worth.

If the producers ever needs to raise prices (due to a legitimate change in their cost structure) then how are old credit vouchers treated.  If their nominal 'value' in 'permanent coin units' is their real value then the people holding these vouchers have lost purchasing power. 

If on the other hand these credits are really going to be worth '1 loaf of bread' for ever and always then their nominal units are meaningless and they will function as commodity futures and their will not be Fungible.

Given the fact that some issuers will shutdown with outstanding credits this will make holding them risky and hence less liquid then real money.

Now I don't particularly see anything wrong with the idea of a whole bunch of cryptographic futures contracts and a system of buisness-2-buisness bartering but it will not become 'money' even to the degree that BTC has.

[johnyj]

Grignon's understanding is not very accurate: Commercial banks can not create credit money without enough base money at hand

All they have to do is satisfy reserve ratio requirements. Usually that's about 10 to 1.

And most of the time they barely satisfy this requirement. When a crisis hit, they can't create credit money to buy themselves out of trouble, since most of their money is checkbook money which can not be used to create checkbook money

they cant use their own checkbook money but the checkbook money they hold on deposit for others is considered as reserve.

Grignon is right about the interest part (ever expanding debt in order to pay back the interest), but the FRB part is not very clear. The reserve is always base money, which can be circulated and lent. The amount of base money limited the total checkbook money they can create

By the way, if the interest rate are close to zero and there is certain level of inflation, then over time the debt can be reduced slowly due to lower and lower real debt, that is a way for today's system to cope with the shrinking period of economy, like Japan did during past 2 decades

An extremely low interest rate and excessive money supply will be the norm for the next few years, good for bitcoin

[Anon136]

Grignon's understanding is not very accurate: Commercial banks can not create credit money without enough base money at hand

All they have to do is satisfy reserve ratio requirements. Usually that's about 10 to 1.

And most of the time they barely satisfy this requirement. When a crisis hit, they can't create credit money to buy themselves out of trouble, since most of their money is checkbook money which can not be used to create checkbook money

they cant use their own checkbook money but the checkbook money they hold on deposit for others is considered as reserve.

Grignon is right about the interest part (ever expanding debt in order to pay back the interest), but the FRB part is not very clear. The reserve is always base money, which can be circulated and lent. The amount of base money limited the total checkbook money they can create

By the way, if the interest rate are close to zero and there is certain level of inflation, then over time the debt can be reduced slowly due to lower and lower real debt, that is a way for today's system to cope with the shrinking period of economy, like Japan did during past 2 decades

An extremely low interest rate and excessive money supply will be the norm for the next few years, good for bitcoin

The first paragraph is exactly right. But if you think through the logic, you can never have a decrease in total debt, in nominal terms, with a posative or 0 interest rate, without introducing the variable of open market operations. For the debt to decrease in nominal terms you would need a negative interest rate again, assuming we do not include the variable of open market operations. I assume what you mean is that the growth in productivity can in theory outpace the increase in debt with very low interest rates? Do I have that right?

[Xav]

I love it he is creating digital CURRENCY with a definable unit and an elastic supply.

Interesting. Now I wonder what's the value of 1 BTC according this RICI-system, considering today's 12 million BTCs?

Still waiting for an answer ....

[cbeast]

Paul Grignon follows Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco. Cool, I get that. The problem with TVP/TZM is busting through programmed compartmentalization inculcated into civilized society. What he is describing is what Bitcoin will evolve into one day. It's already baked into the cake. The world is not yet ready for Abundance and Gift Economy, not even close. We are only beginning the open source and crowd funding stage. The diseases of financialization and corporatism take a series of inoculations. Lets, Ripplepay, and other credit card like IOU systems like Grignon's will become available as Bitcoin powered apps.

[sublime5447]

Paul Grignon follows Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco. Cool, I get that. The problem with TVP/TZM is busting through programmed compartmentalization inculcated into civilized society. What he is describing is what Bitcoin will evolve into one day. It's already baked into the cake. The world is not yet ready for Abundance and Gift Economy, not even close. We are only beginning the open source and crowd funding stage. The diseases of financialization and corporatism take a series of inoculations. Lets, Ripplepay, and other credit card like IOU systems like Grignon's will become available as Bitcoin powered apps.

I dont see how it is baked in with bitcoin, unless it is gonna be defined and have the hard limit removed and I dont see the Venus project or zeitgeist when I look at the concept for the coin. I see a way to force a commodity basket standard on the governments of the world and a way to have a flexible currency that will mitigate the threat of a debt based super nova. I see a way to make currency honest and backed with real productive capacity not promises from wall street or Washington. 

   

[cbeast]

Paul Grignon follows Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco. Cool, I get that. The problem with TVP/TZM is busting through programmed compartmentalization inculcated into civilized society. What he is describing is what Bitcoin will evolve into one day. It's already baked into the cake. The world is not yet ready for Abundance and Gift Economy, not even close. We are only beginning the open source and crowd funding stage. The diseases of financialization and corporatism take a series of inoculations. Lets, Ripplepay, and other credit card like IOU systems like Grignon's will become available as Bitcoin powered apps.

I dont see how it is baked in with bitcoin, unless it is gonna be defined and have the hard limit removed and I dont see the Venus project or zeitgeist when I look at the concept for the coin. I see a way to force a commodity basket standard on the governments of the world and a way to have a flexible currency that will mitigate the threat of a debt based super nova. I see a way to make currency honest and backed with real productive capacity not promises from wall street or Washington. 

Bitcoin is emergent. It is only used as a virtual commodity in its raw form. As a protocol, it becomes a programming language for derivatives and other IOUs Powered by Bitcoin^copyleft but is still using bitdust. As the popularity of these secondary transaction types grow, they will replace every financial instrument in existence. The bitdust will grow in value as these other systems are used. Who cares if these secondary financial instruments are real, productive, or even liquid? Let the market decide! Bitcoin is just the DNA. Isn't a coincidence that all life is based on just the four letters GTCA. Whatever evolves from it will only need the basic functionality already intelligently designed into the protocol. Believe me, there will be enormous beasts that evolve from this primordial ooze they keep saying is dead. Hopefully, it will eventually evolve into the best of all possible worlds.

[bitrider]

Sweet. Well said.

[Xav]

Paul Grignon follows Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco. Cool, I get that. The problem with TVP/TZM is busting through programmed compartmentalization inculcated into civilized society. What he is describing is what Bitcoin will evolve into one day. It's already baked into the cake. The world is not yet ready for Abundance and Gift Economy, not even close. We are only beginning the open source and crowd funding stage. The diseases of financialization and corporatism take a series of inoculations. Lets, Ripplepay, and other credit card like IOU systems like Grignon's will become available as Bitcoin powered apps.

I dont see how it is baked in with bitcoin, unless it is gonna be defined and have the hard limit removed and I dont see the Venus project or zeitgeist when I look at the concept for the coin. I see a way to force a commodity basket standard on the governments of the world and a way to have a flexible currency that will mitigate the threat of a debt based super nova. I see a way to make currency honest and backed with real productive capacity not promises from wall street or Washington. 

   

So, you "see a way to make currency honest and backed with real productive capacity", but you seem unable to calculate the current value of one BTC ( 12 million in total today) related to that RICI-system? If you want a 'controlled currency' based upon the current state of an economy then you should have means to calculate its current value! Why would anyone believe you as long as you refuse to give an answer?

[cdog]

To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?   

If the answer is "trust" them I'm out. 

The same thing that keeps every market honest. Feedback. Only producers with verifiable credit history will be allowed to issue credit.

Hows that working out with the US Govt? Doesnt seem like they are acting too responsibly to me.

[sublime5447]

To ask the question again - what stops defaults from happening in this wonderful world?   

If the answer is "trust" them I'm out. 

The same thing that keeps every market honest. Feedback. Only producers with verifiable credit history will be allowed to issue credit.

Hows that working out with the US Govt? Doesnt seem like they are acting too responsibly to me.

Government isnt a market, government is a monopoly.

[sublime5447]

Paul Grignon follows Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco. Cool, I get that. The problem with TVP/TZM is busting through programmed compartmentalization inculcated into civilized society. What he is describing is what Bitcoin will evolve into one day. It's already baked into the cake. The world is not yet ready for Abundance and Gift Economy, not even close. We are only beginning the open source and crowd funding stage. The diseases of financialization and corporatism take a series of inoculations. Lets, Ripplepay, and other credit card like IOU systems like Grignon's will become available as Bitcoin powered apps.

I dont see how it is baked in with bitcoin, unless it is gonna be defined and have the hard limit removed and I dont see the Venus project or zeitgeist when I look at the concept for the coin. I see a way to force a commodity basket standard on the governments of the world and a way to have a flexible currency that will mitigate the threat of a debt based super nova. I see a way to make currency honest and backed with real productive capacity not promises from wall street or Washington. 

   

So, you "see a way to make currency honest and backed with real productive capacity", but you seem unable to calculate the current value of one BTC ( 12 million in total today) related to that RICI-system? If you want a 'controlled currency' based upon the current state of an economy then you should have means to calculate its current value! Why would anyone believe you as long as you refuse to give an answer?

Do your own math.

[sublime5447]

Paul Grignon follows Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco. Cool, I get that. The problem with TVP/TZM is busting through programmed compartmentalization inculcated into civilized society. What he is describing is what Bitcoin will evolve into one day. It's already baked into the cake. The world is not yet ready for Abundance and Gift Economy, not even close. We are only beginning the open source and crowd funding stage. The diseases of financialization and corporatism take a series of inoculations. Lets, Ripplepay, and other credit card like IOU systems like Grignon's will become available as Bitcoin powered apps.

I dont see how it is baked in with bitcoin, unless it is gonna be defined and have the hard limit removed and I dont see the Venus project or zeitgeist when I look at the concept for the coin. I see a way to force a commodity basket standard on the governments of the world and a way to have a flexible currency that will mitigate the threat of a debt based super nova. I see a way to make currency honest and backed with real productive capacity not promises from wall street or Washington. 

Bitcoin is emergent. It is only used as a virtual commodity in its raw form. As a protocol, it becomes a programming language for derivatives and other IOUs Powered by Bitcoin^copyleft but is still using bitdust. As the popularity of these secondary transaction types grow, they will replace every financial instrument in existence. The bitdust will grow in value as these other systems are used. Who cares if these secondary financial instruments are real, productive, or even liquid? Let the market decide! Bitcoin is just the DNA. Isn't a coincidence that all life is based on just the four letters GTCA. Whatever evolves from it will only need the basic functionality already intelligently designed into the protocol. Believe me, there will be enormous beasts that evolve from this primordial ooze they keep saying is dead. Hopefully, it will eventually evolve into the best of all possible worlds.

The protocol is not proprietary, they wont use bit dust they will use visa dust.

[Adrian-x]

... Basically real currency not this fake bitcoin shit.

Knew it! 5447 had a preexisting bias.

I too have a bias, but unfortunately the p2p decentralized blockchain still trumps any rules governing a centralized alternate.

[Xav]

Do your own math.

Wow, great answer. Thank you very much. I really appreciate your kindness and your insightful contributions on this board.

BTW maybe one day you will find out that a definition for a unit of currency does not solve anything and maybe you will realize sooner or later that 21 million BTC (a little less actually) neatly define the value of the world wide Bitcoin economy, which is all 'we' need ! Good luck, anyway.

[cbeast]

Paul Grignon follows Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco. Cool, I get that. The problem with TVP/TZM is busting through programmed compartmentalization inculcated into civilized society. What he is describing is what Bitcoin will evolve into one day. It's already baked into the cake. The world is not yet ready for Abundance and Gift Economy, not even close. We are only beginning the open source and crowd funding stage. The diseases of financialization and corporatism take a series of inoculations. Lets, Ripplepay, and other credit card like IOU systems like Grignon's will become available as Bitcoin powered apps.

I dont see how it is baked in with bitcoin, unless it is gonna be defined and have the hard limit removed and I dont see the Venus project or zeitgeist when I look at the concept for the coin. I see a way to force a commodity basket standard on the governments of the world and a way to have a flexible currency that will mitigate the threat of a debt based super nova. I see a way to make currency honest and backed with real productive capacity not promises from wall street or Washington. 

Bitcoin is emergent. It is only used as a virtual commodity in its raw form. As a protocol, it becomes a programming language for derivatives and other IOUs Powered by Bitcoin^copyleft but is still using bitdust. As the popularity of these secondary transaction types grow, they will replace every financial instrument in existence. The bitdust will grow in value as these other systems are used. Who cares if these secondary financial instruments are real, productive, or even liquid? Let the market decide! Bitcoin is just the DNA. Isn't a coincidence that all life is based on just the four letters GTCA. Whatever evolves from it will only need the basic functionality already intelligently designed into the protocol. Believe me, there will be enormous beasts that evolve from this primordial ooze they keep saying is dead. Hopefully, it will eventually evolve into the best of all possible worlds.

The protocol is not proprietary, they wont use bit dust they will use visa dust.

What is 'visa dust?' Does Visa have a fraud resistant network?

[sublime5447]

Paul Grignon follows Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco. Cool, I get that. The problem with TVP/TZM is busting through programmed compartmentalization inculcated into civilized society. What he is describing is what Bitcoin will evolve into one day. It's already baked into the cake. The world is not yet ready for Abundance and Gift Economy, not even close. We are only beginning the open source and crowd funding stage. The diseases of financialization and corporatism take a series of inoculations. Lets, Ripplepay, and other credit card like IOU systems like Grignon's will become available as Bitcoin powered apps.

I dont see how it is baked in with bitcoin, unless it is gonna be defined and have the hard limit removed and I dont see the Venus project or zeitgeist when I look at the concept for the coin. I see a way to force a commodity basket standard on the governments of the world and a way to have a flexible currency that will mitigate the threat of a debt based super nova. I see a way to make currency honest and backed with real productive capacity not promises from wall street or Washington.  

Bitcoin is emergent. It is only used as a virtual commodity in its raw form. As a protocol, it becomes a programming language for derivatives and other IOUs Powered by Bitcoin^copyleft but is still using bitdust. As the popularity of these secondary transaction types grow, they will replace every financial instrument in existence. The bitdust will grow in value as these other systems are used. Who cares if these secondary financial instruments are real, productive, or even liquid? Let the market decide! Bitcoin is just the DNA. Isn't a coincidence that all life is based on just the four letters GTCA. Whatever evolves from it will only need the basic functionality already intelligently designed into the protocol. Believe me, there will be enormous beasts that evolve from this primordial ooze they keep saying is dead. Hopefully, it will eventually evolve into the best of all possible worlds.

The protocol is not proprietary, they wont use bit dust they will use visa dust.

What is 'visa dust?' Does Visa have a fraud resistant network?

Ya they have an existing network and they could build one that works off shaw 256 hashing no problem. Visa doesnt need the bitcoin network it will just create its own network.

[sublime5447]

I don't trust anyone who turns off ratings and comments; the only people who do this realize they'd be negatively impacted if they turned them on.

He turned on the comments

[sublime5447]

... Basically real currency not this fake bitcoin shit.

Knew it! 5447 had a preexisting bias.

I too have a bias, but unfortunately the p2p decentralized blockchain still trumps any rules governing a centralized alternate.

Not sure what you mean I went into bitcoin with an open mind and a lot of enthusiasm. I spend 12k on a litecoin mining operation and started a business buying and selling bitcoin for paypal. I have done over 1 k transactions. I am a show me kinda person and bitcoin showed me why it wont work and what is wrong with deflationary currency
 

[Adrian-x]

... Basically real currency not this fake bitcoin shit.

Knew it! 5447 had a preexisting bias.

I too have a bias, but unfortunately the p2p decentralized blockchain still trumps any rules governing a centralized alternate.

Not sure what you mean I went into bitcoin with an open mind and a lot of enthusiasm. I spend 12k on a litecoin mining operation and started a business buying and selling bitcoin for paypal. I have done over 1 k transactions. I am a show me kinda person and bitcoin showed me why it wont work and what is wrong with deflationary currency
 

Paul Grignon’s solution is centralised, i.e. has a central point of frailer. One of the biggest flours in the system generally speaking is viability of credits, you don’t want to start by making debt, you want to start by saving, savings are deferred consumption, and create excess, and resilience in an economy, time spent doing the wrong thing on credit is wasteful yet it is how most of the sheep in his system will be paid.

Entrepreneurs on the other hand power the economy and generally there live life like this:
 From years 0-25 they are a liability (being educated) from 25-35 years they are very productive, form 35-45 they start to do a little profit taking, from 45-55 they hold my weight in the economy, from 55-85 they become a liability.  Now if entrepreneur was a baker let’s say and he issued most of his IOU’s during his 30’s-50’s they will come back for redemption during his retired years and he will default. 

 I’m more a socialist, results oriented type, while Bitcoin is still inflating and the economy deflating it’s working for me, I know it is not perfect and if you have time for lunch I’ll show you how to supersede it. 

[DoomDumas]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

We dont need "bater/money/unit of account/price" to operate a global sustainable society.

The point is that "money/unit of account" are creating scarcity.  In a scientific point of view, there is no real scarcity, and ressources could be used in an efficient and intelligent way, or being replace by something else if there is not enought.

Without "money", the science and technologies would be allowed, and then everyone could live a much more descent life.

Many technologies are not availlable because they are not profitable.  Removing the notion of "bater for profit" then every car would be electric, and much better than actual cars.. Everyone would have access to free and clean energy, and no one would suffer from hunger or cold.  Money/batter, or better called "profit notion" is the source of the scarcity.

I think you just dont fully understand what the Venus Project/Zeitgeist movement have come to.

Many technologies are 100x better than actually availlable one, but not availlable because they cant be produced for profit.

Worse, "Money/Batter" forces competition, wich is not as good as cooperation.. Imagine if every Pharma Research Corp stop to keep their info secret, and they all regroup and share knowledge and ressources, Cancer, Aids, Ms and more would be cured ..

Money/Batter is the brake to evolution..

To be able to function without Batter, a majority of human on earth have to evolve their value, and this have to begins to education of our children !

[Ibian]

seems like the same fundamental misunderstanding as the venus project people have. business to business barter could never take the place of money because it is necessary to have a heterogeneous unit of account inorder to have prices. Prices are necissary inorder to calculate profit and loss and inorder to account for opportunity costs. Calculating profit loss and opportunity costs is necessary in order to rationally allocate scarce resources and to communicate, in a useful way, the decentralized knowledge of individual market actors. Self issued credit is great, but it must be priced, and inorder to do this you need a widely understood unit of account.

so imagine trying to know how many shoes an elevator is worth, and how many elevators a mongoose is worth, and how many mongeese a cheeseburger is worth, with out using "money" as an intermediary step.

We dont need "bater/money/unit of account/price" to operate a global sustainable society.

The point is that "money/unit of account" are creating scarcity.  In a scientific point of view, there is no real scarcity, and ressources could be used in an efficient and intelligent way, or being replace by something else if there is not enought.

Without "money", the science and technologies would be allowed, and then everyone could live a much more descent life.

Many technologies are not availlable because they are not profitable.  Removing the notion of "bater for profit" then every car would be electric, and much better than actual cars.. Everyone would have access to free and clean energy, and no one would suffer from hunger or cold.  Money/batter, or better called "profit notion" is the source of the scarcity.

I think you just dont fully understand what the Venus Project/Zeitgeist movement have come to.

Many technologies are 100x better than actually availlable one, but not availlable because they cant be produced for profit.

Worse, "Money/Batter" forces competition, wich is not as good as cooperation.. Imagine if every Pharma Research Corp stop to keep their info secret, and they all regroup and share knowledge and ressources, Cancer, Aids, Ms and more would be cured ..

Money/Batter is the brake to evolution..

To be able to function without Batter, a majority of human on earth have to evolve their value, and this have to begins to education of our children !

[thaaanos]

That reminds me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy.
If you assume a culture that a gift/favour generates a moral obligation or say a moral Debt.
Essentially you are storing wealth on your network rather on your wallet, that means the less you have the more you can potentially recieve
That of course requires the network to impose a high cost of a No network-effect to the players that decide to become selfish.

[GigaCoin]

i didnt watch the video yet, but as per your description isn't there already a coin called "elacoin" that does the whole elastic crap ?