Why do people think income tax is ok?

[hilariousandco]

And now you've gone for the scare tactics by saying people will die in the streets despite me offering plenty of alternatives that will help people, also, if you honestly don't know what I mean by mathematics and common sense will always win you really are a lost cause.

You're not forced to do anything or pay any taxes if you don't want, yet you can still use all the services it provides all paid for by the taxpayer.

Yes you are, when you don't pay taxes you go to jail, that's a complete lie:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ianmcowie/100019166/plumber-jailed-for-tax-evasion-as-hmrc-receipts-rise/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-18352528

http://news.sky.com/story/1074638/wesley-snipes-freed-from-jail-after-tax-evasion

http://uk.eonline.com/news/437162/lauryn-hill-begins-prison-sentence-for-tax-evasion

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/45367884-2bd8-11e1-98bc-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2q08KfPYs

http://cpj.org/2013/10/vietnamese-blogger-jailed-on-tax-evasion-charges.php

What you call 'Not paying taxes' governments all call 'tax evasion' and you get arrested and put in jail for it no matter how badly you want to spin this, you're the one who is frankly naive. Also, I actually said corporate sponsorship, I didn't say corporations should run everything, that said, if they do it on a voluntary basis and run it efficiently I have no problem with that unlike you.

No, I don't know what you mean. People don't have common sense, do they? I don't think you do either if you think we can live in this tax-free utopia where charities and corporations dish out services for free and out of the goodness of their hearts and everything is better because there's no evil governments. You used scare tactics by complaining that the government has failed because you have to wait a few hours in A+E to get seen and some roads are a bit shoddy. Things would be much much worse than pot holes in the roads if we turned this over to somebody else. My solution is to put more money into this; yours is to  stop paying for it and seemingly hand it over to somebody else and hope they sort the mess out whilst they continue giving it to us for free.

And I know people go to jail for not paying taxes, but you're being silly now and completely missing my points. You're also completely mistaken about what I said. I'm not paying any taxes and I'm not in jail. Some of my friends work and they don't pay any taxes and they're not in jail. And if you don't want to pay taxes; you can. Nobody is forcing you to pay income tax at all. You could also illegally avoid them if you want; just don't get caught. And if you don't want to pay any income taxes and are so against them, just move to a different country that offers this option. Tell me, which ones are those again?

if they do it on a voluntary basis and run it efficiently I have no problem with that unlike you.

Why would they do it on a voluntary basis? And I wouldn't  have a problem with that option; of course it'd be great it happened, but that's not gonna happen, is it? And what's wrong with the government running it as long as they run it 'efficiently'? So you're ok letting it into the outside hands of a corporation, but governments are a big no-no because they don't run it efficiently? Well neither will corporations and then it's out of our control because they can do almost what they like.

And you still avoided most of my other points. Tell me, what system would you put in place then if you were in charge?

[asdf]

Oh well, I'm talking about getting rid of all taxes

What system do you propose for paying for schools, roads, hospitals, emergency services etc?

People can pay the service provider/producer. Same way you pay for food, clothing, housing, etc. It's called trade.

[hilariousandco]

Oh well, I'm talking about getting rid of all taxes

What system do you propose for paying for schools, roads, hospitals, emergency services etc?

People can pay the service provider/producer. Same way you pay for food, clothing, housing, etc. It's called trade.

And what happens if you can't afford any of these things? You grow up without an education, are homeless and starving and left without any prospects or future, and eventually you'll die when you have a minor injury that's left untreated.

How do you pay the police? They come investigate a crime then bill you for it?

[compro01]

Do you honestly believe that, in today's world, those things couldn't be built/services be offered without government involvement?

I believe it is possible for those things to be built/offered without government involvement.

It's just that historical evidence shows that doesn't work worth a damn for many things.

[hilariousandco]

Do you honestly believe that, in today's world, those things couldn't be built/services be offered without government involvement?

I believe it is possible for those things to be built/offered without government involvement.

It's just that historical evidence shows that doesn't work worth a damn for many things.

It's not impossible, but it's unlikely to ever succeed or become fully efficient.

[Carlton Banks]

Do you honestly believe that, in today's world, those things couldn't be built/services be offered without government involvement?

I believe it is possible for those things to be built/offered without government involvement.

It's just that historical evidence shows that doesn't work worth a damn for many things.

It's not impossible, but it's unlikely to ever succeed or become fully efficient.

Let's find out. People are making your argument not about decentralised government, but about bitcoin. "It'll never work" they say. But we know it already does (at a "small" scale...)

And think about this: what if you like the idea of of local, people-run government right now? Where can you go to get it? Look, and you'll see that there isn't anywhere. There's alot of people out there that want the opportunity to choose to go all local. But basically every corner of the earth is "owned" by a government, and none of those governments are happy to give these people what they want. And this is democracy? Where the people rule? The US is supposed to be based on the local government "by the people, for the people" model. And look where they are now.

You might say the people voted for what they got. But if you asked people after the fact, they'll tell you they "didn't think it was going to be like this". So, you can say you're against cutting health and education spending, and in favour of stopping all spending on wars and corporate subsidies. But what power have you really got to make that happen? The power to vote for a new face who promises you "no more of the same", only to end up giving you more of the same after their time is up. The excuse is usually some variation of "real life got in the way". These professional politicians do the minimum to help the people they can get away with, then use everything else for themselves and their business interests. And that pattern is showing no signs of ending, and the scale of what the politicians get away with is starting to go beyond disgusting.

Bitcoin is just one way to take power back from the government. Bittorrent is a similar way of taking content distribution back from the corporate media. The internet itself was a way of giving anyone a platform to broadcast to the world. But they're not giving up without a fight, as you may have noticed. Internet freedom is under threat, I don't need to say anything to convince you of that. The crafty stealing from the public's pockets is a serious threat to the public, right in the middle of an economic recession, which the politicians and their banker buddies allowed to happen so they could get, that's right, more power and more money.

So you can carry on paying these protection rackets to let them "look after everyone" if you like, not going to try and stop you. But there's alot of people out there that have had enough, and want out.

[hilariousandco]

Do you honestly believe that, in today's world, those things couldn't be built/services be offered without government involvement?

I believe it is possible for those things to be built/offered without government involvement.

It's just that historical evidence shows that doesn't work worth a damn for many things.

It's not impossible, but it's unlikely to ever succeed or become fully efficient.

Let's find out. People are making your argument not about decentralised government, but about bitcoin. "It'll never work" they say. But we know it already does (at a "small" scale...)

So you can carry on paying these protection rackets to let them "look after everyone" if you like, not going to try and stop you. But there's alot of people out there that have had enough, and want out.

I'd love for this to happen and am one of those people who's had enough and want out of the current system. I'd love and hope that Bitcoin or cryptos become the dominating currencies. I'd love for people to elect politicians or people that genuinely care about what's good for the people and aren't in the pockets of corporations, or even for the people to just take charge of their own lives and that of others for the better of humanity; but people and the general public are generally fucking idiots and don't know what's good for then. They don't know or understand how fiat money or banks work and the war machine. They get on with their shitty little lives and do nothing. Yeah, some people might be armchair anarchists and are angry at paying taxes, but what are they going to do about it? Nothing except moan at the government whilst offering no real solutions other than to get rid of them. Bitcoin should be being used by everyone, but it wont. Why? Ask the people on the street and you'll find out. Ignorance, fear and apathy (probably three of the greatest human diseases).

[shawshankinmate37927]

Why do people think income tax is ok?

Well, some don't earn enough to pay much, if any, in income tax so they aren't really bothered by it.  In fact, they are the ones that tend to be on the receiving end of the income redistribution.

If everyone was required to pay their "fair share" and we all had the same flat tax on our income, the idea of an income tax would probably be done away with in favor of a flat sales tax.

[Denton]

heh we are getting hit with tax on the earning side... and on the spending side. And inbetween (saving side aka inflation) . Then we get hit with taxes on the step after the spending side also known as the ownership side. Government is like an organism... it seeks to eat and devour and grow bigger and clutch at everything it can so that it can survive and get bigger and devour more.  Government and freedom are inversely proportional... the more government you have the less freedom you have. Taxes and government are directly proportional so the more taxes you have the more government you have. Therefore the more taxes you have the less freedom you ultimately have.

Indeed. Imagine you want to buy a house. First you lose around 40% of you earnings on income tax and other nonsense. Then you pay VAT on the house. There is a chance that you have to regularly pay real estate tax. If you want to give the house away there is another tax. If you die your heirs also get to pay inheritance tax.

[countryfree]

Income tax should go as the government doesn't need to know how much you're making, but I understand property tax to maintain roads and organize basic emergency services. If income tax pays for schools, that's another reason for it to go. Public schools have failed everywhere.

[Ekaros]

Income tax should go as the government doesn't need to know how much you're making, but I understand property tax to maintain roads and organize basic emergency services. If income tax pays for schools, that's another reason for it to go. Public schools have failed everywhere.

Public schools have failed everywhere? Really...

[Kouye]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381420.0

I actually had some success using this approach.
It's closer to crowdfunding/voting than taxes. But it should cover the needs for hospitals and roads, and shut down nukes (at least, if people are sensitive enough).

[asdf]

Oh well, I'm talking about getting rid of all taxes

What system do you propose for paying for schools, roads, hospitals, emergency services etc?

People can pay the service provider/producer. Same way you pay for food, clothing, housing, etc. It's called trade.

And what happens if you can't afford any of these things? You grow up without an education, are homeless and starving and left without any prospects or future, and eventually you'll die when you have a minor injury that's left untreated.

How do you pay the police? They come investigate a crime then bill you for it?

I don't know, I guess entrepreneurs will solve these problems. Are you suggesting that institutionalised violence is the only way? We can't help the poor without theft?

[hilariousandco]

Oh well, I'm talking about getting rid of all taxes

What system do you propose for paying for schools, roads, hospitals, emergency services etc?

People can pay the service provider/producer. Same way you pay for food, clothing, housing, etc. It's called trade.

And what happens if you can't afford any of these things? You grow up without an education, are homeless and starving and left without any prospects or future, and eventually you'll die when you have a minor injury that's left untreated.

How do you pay the police? They come investigate a crime then bill you for it?

I don't know, I guess entrepreneurs will solve these problems. Are you suggesting that institutionalised violence is the only way? We can't help the poor without theft?

No, I'm not suggesting that's the only way. What are you suggesting exactly? Why do taxes always have to be 'theft'? Why not consider them 'donations'? Don't want to 'donate'? Don't pay the taxes (or 'donations') or move to somewhere else. Nobody is forcing you. If you want to play the game then you have to play by the rules, unless you can change the rules. This just seems like people want services but are too cheap to pay for them or are operating under the assumption that you are forced to pay for them when you're not. And if you are willing to pay for these services then you just essentially want to call taxes by something else or the government by something else. And what do you suggest as an alternative plan? Tell me how you would make this work? Why do people assume that just passing on the responsibility to someone else will solve all the problems as long as these people do not call themselves politicians or the government? And do you expect these 'entrepreneurs' you speak of to work for free or do we pay them? These entrepreneurs will essentially become synonymous with government / politicians anyway, then we'll've gone full circle. What happens if you don't pay these entrepreneurs for services rendered? Will they send the bailiffs round? Will they press charges and send you to prison ('institutionalised violence'?) when you can't pay or even worse make you a debt slave? You haven't offered a viable alternative here at all.

[tompa555]

while there is monetary governments there will be taxes. Because there is no other way. Maybe we need some other type of system. Maybe with out money.
Maybe something like resource based system or something else.

[bitlancr]

No, I'm not suggesting that's the only way. What are you suggesting exactly? Why do taxes always have to be 'theft'? Why not consider them 'donations'? Don't want to 'donate'? Don't pay the taxes (or 'donations') or move to somewhere else. Nobody is forcing you.

Hilarious

[dank]

The power to tax is the power to destroy. I think income tax and property tax are just wrong. What do you think?

Roads, police, fire services?

Don't forget war!

[Carlton Banks]

And if you are willing to pay for these services then you just essentially want to call taxes by something else or the government by something else. And what do you suggest as an alternative plan? Tell me how you would make this work? Why do people assume that just passing on the responsibility to someone else will solve all the problems as long as these people do not call themselves politicians or the government?

The plan is to pass the responsibility onto me. And you. Everyone.

First we get a money system that doesn't rip us off all day until we die (bitcoin, CHECK)

Then we've got more time on our hands to organise locally. We take a stake in our communities by making the decisions ourselves, not voting for someone who does that for us.

We organise all the local services we need ourselves. Contract a company to collect waste (like your local government do now). Contract a company to maintain the local roads. Contract a company to look after water and sewage. Get all people in the area to pay into a fund to get it done (easier when the value of money is no longer evaporating into bankers pockets on a daily basis). Use a bitcoin wallet with multi-signature, where it only gets spent when a minimum number of people will sign it off.

Choose staff for the local schools, police and hospitals yourself. Even if you're only choosing the managerial staff, at least then you've got more oversight and more input than you do now.

And all the people that are doing all this organising will get to know each other. They'll get to know strengths and weaknesses, biases and . Then you'll know what's going on in your community, and where all the money went. You have no hope of anything like that from your local government now. And even the local government people get paid a tidy salary, this is such a waste when the only reason to have them there is that the sconomic system is tilted to keep everyone else too busy with their own day job.

And think about that, these people are professionals, literally dedicated to looking after running local amenities, and this is the best they can do? On their more than decent salaries? Come on. I think we (literally, WE) can do better.

[Ekaros]

And if you are willing to pay for these services then you just essentially want to call taxes by something else or the government by something else. And what do you suggest as an alternative plan? Tell me how you would make this work? Why do people assume that just passing on the responsibility to someone else will solve all the problems as long as these people do not call themselves politicians or the government?

The plan is to pass the responsibility onto me. And you. Everyone.

First we get a money system that doesn't rip us off all day until we die (bitcoin, CHECK)

Then we've got more time on our hands to organise locally. We take a stake in our communities by making the decisions ourselves, not voting for someone who does that for us.

We organise all the local services we need ourselves. Contract a company to collect waste (like your local government do now). Contract a company to maintain the local roads. Contract a company to look after water and sewage. Get all people in the area to pay into a fund to get it done (easier when the value of money is no longer evaporating into bankers pockets on a daily basis). Use a bitcoin wallet with multi-signature, where it only gets spent when a minimum number of people will sign it off.

Choose staff for the local schools, police and hospitals yourself. Even if you're only choosing the managerial staff, at least then you've got more oversight and more input than you do now.

And all the people that are doing all this organising will get to know each other. They'll get to know strengths and weaknesses, biases and . Then you'll know what's going on in your community, and where all the money went. You have no hope of anything like that from your local government now. And even the local government people get paid a tidy salary, this is such a waste when the only reason to have them there is that the sconomic system is tilted to keep everyone else too busy with their own day job.

And think about that, these people are professionals, literally dedicated to looking after running local amenities, and this is the best they can do? On their more than decent salaries? Come on. I think we (literally, WE) can do better.

Wouldn't that be just another form of government with direct democracy? And would everyone really have the time to go in-depth to all forms of services they need? And isn't getting people to pay in fund still taxation?

[Elwar]

The power to tax is the power to destroy. I think income tax and property tax are just wrong. What do you think?

Garbage service, TV, fire departments, food, clothing, electricity.