Why do people think income tax is ok?

[Sirrah]

Disagree.

How the funds are used isn't the issue. The fact remains that an income tax is immoral, destructive, and unnecessary, and should be abolished.

Why is income tax immoral? Is it simply because you perceive it that way and hence it is... Or is there an underlying argument that I am missing. Income tax is necessary in quite a lot of countries ie Australia which relies upon it for over 50% of its revenue which without it the government would have significantly less ability to fund projects, education, healthcare etc. So I don't see how it is unnecessary unless your thinking that a government should just instead print money to suffice its needs and in turn cause inflationary pressures.

[Kiki112]

Disagree.

How the funds are used isn't the issue. The fact remains that an income tax is immoral, destructive, and unnecessary, and should be abolished.

how would you pay teachers,doctors,road workers, train workers etc.?

[TheButterZone]

Disagree.

How the funds are used isn't the issue. The fact remains that an income tax is immoral, destructive, and unnecessary, and should be abolished.

how would you pay teachers,doctors,road workers, train workers etc.?

With this thing called money, and my hands. I guess you haven't heard of them.

[Wekkel]

Disagree.

How the funds are used isn't the issue. The fact remains that an income tax is immoral, destructive, and unnecessary, and should be abolished.

how would you pay teachers,doctors,road workers, train workers etc.?

With this thing called money, and my hands. I guess you haven't heard of them.

So it's not free after all.

[Kiki112]

Disagree.

How the funds are used isn't the issue. The fact remains that an income tax is immoral, destructive, and unnecessary, and should be abolished.

how would you pay teachers,doctors,road workers, train workers etc.?

With this thing called money, and my hands. I guess you haven't heard of them.

So it's not free after all.

so you have a 100 000 0000$ for every month until you die to pay teachers,doctors,soldiers etc.?

[roslinpl]

Tax reform will never happen because the politicians would lose out. Doesn't matter who you vote for.

Yes it is true.

But this is what we call democracy
Anyway - whoever will win, things are not gonna crush or change to much better just like that.

And income tax is perhaps needed ... they need to earn money somehow they suffer money issues so perhaps without it ... would be to hard for them.

[Kiki112]

Tax reform will never happen because the politicians would lose out. Doesn't matter who you vote for.

Yes it is true.

But this is what we call democracy
Anyway - whoever will win, things are not gonna crush or change to much better just like that.

And income tax is perhaps needed ... they need to earn money somehow they suffer money issues so perhaps without it ... would be to hard for them.

you don't quite understand..

we need income tax because we can't get organised and gather the money to build anything, how would be build schools,hospitals,pools, football fields, anything,anything
who would build roads, stop lights, signs, policeman?
there would be robbery everyhwere without income taxes

[hilariousandco]

Tax reform will never happen because the politicians would lose out. Doesn't matter who you vote for.

Don't vote for them then.

Tax reform will never happen because the politicians would lose out. Doesn't matter who you vote for.

Yes it is true.

But this is what we call democracy
Anyway - whoever will win, things are not gonna crush or change to much better just like that.

And income tax is perhaps needed ... they need to earn money somehow they suffer money issues so perhaps without it ... would be to hard for them.

you don't quite understand..

we need income tax because we can't get organised and gather the money to build anything, how would be build schools,hospitals,pools, football fields, anything,anything
who would build roads, stop lights, signs, policeman?
there would be robbery everyhwere without income taxes

Read the rest of the thread. We've had this argument several times and it goes nowhere, but I'll save you the time: They just say people will gather around to make their own charity co-ops and everything will be rosy cos there's no big bad governments and everybody gets to choose what they spend their money on  .

[Ekaros]

Tax reform will never happen because the politicians would lose out. Doesn't matter who you vote for.

Don't vote for them then.

Tax reform will never happen because the politicians would lose out. Doesn't matter who you vote for.

Yes it is true.

But this is what we call democracy
Anyway - whoever will win, things are not gonna crush or change to much better just like that.

And income tax is perhaps needed ... they need to earn money somehow they suffer money issues so perhaps without it ... would be to hard for them.

you don't quite understand..

we need income tax because we can't get organised and gather the money to build anything, how would be build schools,hospitals,pools, football fields, anything,anything
who would build roads, stop lights, signs, policeman?
there would be robbery everyhwere without income taxes

Read the rest of the thread. We've had this argument several times and it goes nowhere, but I'll save you the time: They just say people will gather around to make their own charity co-ops and everything will be rosy cos there's no big bad governments and everybody gets to choose what they spend their money on  .

Yes and people are free decide on any contract like work, anyway who needs to eat and so on...

[u9y42]

Income tax should go as the government doesn't need to know how much you're making, but I understand property tax to maintain roads and organize basic emergency services. If income tax pays for schools, that's another reason for it to go. Public schools have failed everywhere.

Public schools have failed everywhere? Do we have anyone from Finland here? But I take it you're American... it's only natural for public schools to fail if they are intentionally defunded; there is only so much you can do without money unfortunately.

[hilariousandco]

Income tax should go as the government doesn't need to know how much you're making, but I understand property tax to maintain roads and organize basic emergency services. If income tax pays for schools, that's another reason for it to go. Public schools have failed everywhere.

Public schools have failed everywhere? Really...

But I see people claim the governments are failing when there's a few potholes in the road or the National Health Service has failed because you have to wait a few hours to get that 1 inch gash on your hand sewn up on a Friday night.

[u9y42]

Income tax should go as the government doesn't need to know how much you're making, but I understand property tax to maintain roads and organize basic emergency services. If income tax pays for schools, that's another reason for it to go. Public schools have failed everywhere.

Public schools have failed everywhere? Really...

But I see people claim the governments are failing when there's a few potholes in the road or the National Health Service has failed because you have to wait a few hours to get that 1 inch gash on your hand sewn up on a Friday night.

You're right, people love to blow things out of proportion, but in cases where there is a real problem, it would be nice to see people focusing more on why it exists in the first place and not so much on throwing blame around.

[westkybitcoins]

Disagree.

How the funds are used isn't the issue. The fact remains that an income tax is immoral, destructive, and unnecessary, and should be abolished.

how would you pay teachers,doctors,road workers, train workers etc.?

It's 2014. People should get this by now.

School and teachers are paid for by local property taxes. Ditto for police.

Medical care is a life expense. You pay it like any other bill. If it's too expensive, cut regulation and get the government out. Catastrophic insurance is a great concept to address this too.

Roads and such are paid for by gas taxes.

Practically every service a citizen expects from government is paid for via other means. Income tax goes to pay the interest on the national debt, meaning the private banks that own the Federal Reserve get your sweat and blood.

Of course, this primarily applies to the USA, but also to some degree to some other countries.

I'll say it again: income tax is unnecessary. Even if you thought everything a government wastes money on is actually necessary, it can be paid for by far less intrusive, less destructive means than taking a super-tithe of people's personal incomes.

[westkybitcoins]

Disagree.

How the funds are used isn't the issue. The fact remains that an income tax is immoral, destructive, and unnecessary, and should be abolished.

Why is income tax immoral?

At it's root, because theft is immoral.

But beyond that, because even as a form of taxation, it's among the most intrusive, destructive forms, granting governments far too much direct influence over their citizen's lives.

[PrintMule]

Disagree.

How the funds are used isn't the issue. The fact remains that an income tax is immoral, destructive, and unnecessary, and should be abolished.

how would you pay teachers,doctors,road workers, train workers etc.?

It's 2014. People should get this by now.

School and teachers are paid for by local property taxes. Ditto for police.

Medical care is a life expense. You pay it like any other bill. If it's too expensive, cut regulation and get the government out. Catastrophic insurance is a great concept to address this too.

Roads and such are paid for by gas taxes.

Practically every service a citizen expects from government is paid for via other means. Income tax goes to pay the interest on the national debt, meaning the private banks that own the Federal Reserve get your sweat and blood.

Of course, this primarily applies to the USA, but also to some degree to some other countries.

I'll say it again: income tax is unnecessary. Even if you thought everything a government wastes money on is actually necessary, it can be paid for by far less intrusive, less destructive means than taking a super-tithe of people's personal incomes.

I'd go further and say that  value added tax is more than enough. Especially when it's triple charged. Someone sells(taxed) grain to a factory. Factory sells(taxed) bread to retail store. Retail sells(taxed) bread to people.

If the government would attain from spending on different kinds of bullshit, than simply VAT would be enough.

[countryfree]

Income tax should go as the government doesn't need to know how much you're making, but I understand property tax to maintain roads and organize basic emergency services. If income tax pays for schools, that's another reason for it to go. Public schools have failed everywhere.

Public schools have failed everywhere? Do we have anyone from Finland here? But I take it you're American... it's only natural for public schools to fail if they are intentionally defunded; there is only so much you can do without money unfortunately.

Quite often, public schools failures are not money related. I'm not American, and I've never been in Finland, but I was in Sweden two weeks ago, and I guess it's quite similar. Swedish schools are highly rated everywhere, but you should not believe that. Sweden is an awful country, and Swedes are awful people. I can't think of a more boring place. Swedish schools don't teach how to be a man, nor how to think freely, they teach children how to become Swedes, and that's a huge difference. They teach what's good and bad according to Swedish rules, and nobody shall ever venture out of those restrictive old-fashioned rules. Questioning authority is not allowed. Somehow, I bet most American schools are better.

[5thStreetResearch]

Roads, hospitals, police, military, schools, duh.

[TheButterZone]

Roads {which are made by cronies via no-bid contracts, horrifically badly, or by the government, horrifically badly}, hospitals {which are given carte blanche to drive people into medical bankruptcy by systematically overcharging for every little thing and malpractice}, police {who systematically follow orders to violate human and civil rights if they want to keep their jobs, under tyrannical brass}, military {which kills/maims more innocents, and gets more innocents killed/maimed, than all "civilian" criminals combined, indefensibly using the euphemisms "collateral damage" and "blowback" in an endless cycle of hell, not to mention its own human rights violations after being given carte blanche by commander in chief after commander in chief ad infinitum}, schools {which are effective death traps where children and adults are rendered legally defenseless and unprotected by law}, duh.

[westkybitcoins]

Roads,

Gas taxes

hospitals,

Health care is a privately, individually administered life expense. Pay it yourself, or should we go ahead and put food and water on this list too?

(Hint: if your food costs had ballooned like medical costs have over the last 4 decades, you'd probably be curious as to what the problem was, wouldn't you?)

police,

Local property taxes

military,

Corporate taxes

schools,

Local property taxes

duh.

Yeah, exactly. Nothing close to a solid argument to justify an income tax yet.

[westkybitcoins]

Once more unto the breach dear friends, once more! Or close the wall up with our English dead!

<snip>

hospitals,

Health care is a privately, individually administered life expense. Pay it yourself, or should we go ahead and put food and water on this list too?

(Hint: if your food costs had ballooned like medical costs have over the last 4 decades, you'd probably be curious as to what the problem was, wouldn't you?)

This is an appalling attitude. Civilised societies take care of their sick.

It's only been considered an appalling attitude over the last few decades. Giving charity to those who can't afford their needs is great; considering every basic need of every individual an entitlement, and stealing directly from the income of others to pay for those needs is called socialism. It's immoral, inefficient, and unsustainable.

And even if none of that were true, an income tax is still a horrible way to pay for it.

Again: if food prices had gone up like medical costs, I would hope the societal response wouldn't simply be to ignore the cause and to start advocating for public restaurants.

police, schools,

Local property taxes

So the schools and police will be better funded in wealthy areas where they already have low crime rates and good schools? Nice.

Yes. Rich people can afford to pay more for nicer things; that's life. Even if payment for those things was switched to income taxes, it wouldn't end the disparity (due to private schools and private security forces,) so demanding income redistribution to address the inequity seems a little disingenuous.

military,

Corporate taxes

Because corporations are the only ones who need defending, right?

I'm not even sure what you're saying here.

Why would you be against corporations, which are granted special privileges by government that individuals don't have access to, paying for military expenditures (as primarily happens in the U.S.?)

Are you saying corporations shouldn't have to bear the burden, or that individuals should also pay out of their personal income, just because?

Nothing close to a solid argument to justify an income tax yet.

Do you really mean income tax, or is your problem really with any tax where the rich pay progressively more than the poor?

I have a problem with all taxes.

But if taxes are going to exist, there are far better options than income taxes, regardless of whether regressive or progressive. One would think the intrusiveness alone should cause people to demand a change; but I suppose once people become use to a status quo, it will be defended, regardless of the wrongness of it.