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Author Topic: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin?  (Read 57429 times)
jago25_98
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September 07, 2011, 02:49:06 PM
 #141

Devil's advocate. Bitcoin is a currency. The issuer is the original miner who generated it. The only difference is that the issuers are distributed.

2. "electronic money" means electronically, including magnetically, stored monetary value as represented by a claim on the issuer which is issued on receipt of funds for the purpose of making payment transactions as defined in point 5 of Article 4 of Directive 2007/64/EC, and which is accepted by a natural or legal person other than the electronic money issuer;"

Word definitions... What is monetary value? A house? A car? Something with the word 'coin' in it?

Gov will respond somehow. This will effect bitcoin value somehow. Up as well as down i'm sure. Hard to predict.

We all expected this to happen but we didnt know when. Im sure some people woild have hoped a more quiet developing time rather than an explosive and rapid news events.

Different governments can respond in different ways. One gives it ligitimacy and outlaws it, and gives itblegitimacy and recognises it; both are rocognising the currency.
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September 07, 2011, 03:01:35 PM
 #142

If I was the bank I wouldn't open the bitcoin can of worms, instead, I'd focus on the mtgox USD.

Clearly, *that* is an e-currency :
 - It's issued by a central authority: Tibanne,
 - it is an instrument that represents debt, the creditor being the user, and the debtor being tibanne,
 - it is redeemable against fiat currency,
 - it is transferable to a third party using an mtgox code



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September 07, 2011, 03:06:10 PM
 #143

Remember, gold is not a money and bitcoin is very similar to gold
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September 07, 2011, 04:25:13 PM
 #144

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

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hightax
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September 07, 2011, 04:53:11 PM
 #145

So since bitcoin is not money, does that mean that Tom Williams stole nothing at all?
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September 07, 2011, 05:11:24 PM
 #146

Devil's advocate. Bitcoin is a currency. The issuer is the original miner who generated it. The only difference is that the issuers are distributed.

2. "electronic money" means electronically, including magnetically, stored monetary value as represented by a claim on the issuer which is issued on receipt of funds for the purpose of making payment transactions as defined in point 5 of Article 4 of Directive 2007/64/EC, and which is accepted by a natural or legal person other than the electronic money issuer;"

The issuer/central authority is a computer program/network, not the miner.
It is also the holder of the "coins". You cant extract the coins for yourself....it is not a commodity. Bitcoins are illegal.

The keys to the coins are an illegal commodity.

Feel free to disagree, but thats the argument for saying bitcoins are a currency.



Pieter Wuille
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September 07, 2011, 05:14:24 PM
 #147

Devil's advocate. Bitcoin is a currency. The issuer is the original miner who generated it. The only difference is that the issuers are distributed.

2. "electronic money" means electronically, including magnetically, stored monetary value as represented by a claim on the issuer which is issued on receipt of funds for the purpose of making payment transactions as defined in point 5 of Article 4 of Directive 2007/64/EC, and which is accepted by a natural or legal person other than the electronic money issuer;"

The issuer/central authority is a computer program/network, not the miner.

You can argue about whether there is an issuer or not, but there is definitely no claim. Nobody - including the miner or the network - guarantee anything in return for a bitcoin (or a private key, seen as a certificate) except bitcoin itself.

aka sipa, core dev team

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September 07, 2011, 05:17:03 PM
 #148

Due to breach of trust and gross negligence by Sirius and Theymos who recklessly transferred my private and personal data on this forum to a Japaneze company without my permission I am leaving this forum and deleting all my posts. Goodbye.

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nighteyes
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September 07, 2011, 05:23:32 PM
 #149

that is claim for bitcoin itself than
@nighteyes, it is not clear how you jump from what you quoted to your claim that bitcoin is illegal. Explain your logic, if any.

I was just stating the argument as I understood it. The argument likely relies on some law meaning that bitcoin its not a recognized currency.

edit: My position is that it is legal...just not legal tender.
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September 07, 2011, 05:37:42 PM
 #150

So since bitcoin is not money, does that mean that Tom Williams stole nothing at all?

So since jewelry is not money, does that mean that robbing a jewelry store means stealing nothing at all?

aka sipa, core dev team

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September 07, 2011, 05:46:16 PM
 #151

So since jewelry is not money, does that mean that robbing a jewelry store means stealing nothing at all?

I believe it was a breach of contract. Each transaction was signed by the sender with the unsigned understanding that those transactions would be signed and reversed upon request. But I think Hightax's point is that bitcoins literally (even digitally) are nothing. I don't think we have adequate physical metaphors for them. It'll be interesting how this case defines the community verified signature of an assertion.

Alice sends an IOU to Bob, verified by the peanut gallery
Bob gets the IOU stolen by Eve, also verified by the peanut gallery
Alice requests IOU back from Bob
But Bob can't get that transaction verified by the peanut gallery.
I'd say the peanut gallery is complicit in Eve's crime and conspire against Alice (or Bob).

(or some other absurd interpretations)

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September 07, 2011, 06:17:04 PM
 #152

following.

These are the types of instances we have all been waiting for. It doesn't matter if Mt. Gox walks away from France; it'll happen somewhere else. Get the experience while you can I say.
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September 13, 2011, 12:38:28 PM
 #153

can you say what decision is taken the 13 september please thanks
fastandfurious
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September 13, 2011, 01:09:17 PM
 #154

can you say what decision is taken the 13 september please thanks

+1
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September 13, 2011, 01:14:45 PM
 #155

I don't think you're the gambling type, but, well: place your bet: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=89 ("French court will rule Bitcoin as a virtual currency", 0.1 BTC agree, 25.80 BTC disagree. Pretty good odds should they decide it's a currency.

Hum...  Funny thing is that this makes me realize an usefull side effect of gambling websites.   It gives an incentive to publish and verify information.  A bit as if gambling markets can be an alternative to journalism.

For example,  I've bookmarked this betsofbico.in page, not because I want to bet on this event, but just because I want to know its outcome asap.
Bigpiggy01
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September 13, 2011, 01:57:31 PM
 #156

News plz Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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September 13, 2011, 05:36:14 PM
 #157

Well September 13 is here and no news ?
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September 13, 2011, 06:15:38 PM
 #158

September 13 is when the trial starts. The decision should take a few weeks.
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September 13, 2011, 06:35:15 PM
 #159

I don't think you're the gambling type, but, well: place your bet: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=89 ("French court will rule Bitcoin as a virtual currency", 0.1 BTC agree, 25.80 BTC disagree. Pretty good odds should they decide it's a currency.

Hum...  Funny thing is that this makes me realize an usefull side effect of gambling websites.   It gives an incentive to publish and verify information.  A bit as if gambling markets can be an alternative to journalism.

For example,  I've bookmarked this betsofbico.in page, not because I want to bet on this event, but just because I want to know its outcome asap.

Interesting thought. Also: you can enter your own statements. Of course you should provide a description of how the decision can be checked, but the checking is done by site ops, I guess.

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September 13, 2011, 10:04:37 PM
 #160

that is last news but in french of course

Audience du 13 septembre 2011 à 14h00.

Après discussion, aucun juge rapporteur ne sera désigné.

L'affaire sera jugée directement en audience publique collégiale (3 juges) le 18 octobre 2011 à 10h00 au Tribunal de Commerce de Créteil (immeuble Pascal accessible par le parking du centre commercial "créteil soleil").

La décision interviendra plus tard, environ 4 semaines habituellement (la rédaction du l'acte de justice prend du temps).
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