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Author Topic: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin?  (Read 57400 times)
bitcoinminer
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November 25, 2011, 02:13:21 AM
 #261

I'm not sure I would trust my BTC OR my $$$ to a "financial institution" that uses google mail for their email system.

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

-Warren Buffett
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jjiimm_64
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November 25, 2011, 03:28:27 AM
 #262

I'm not sure I would trust my BTC OR my $$$ to a "financial institution" that uses google mail for their email system.

if you think you can do better as an exchange, then open one.

I am sure they had more important things to take care of then trying to maintain an email server.

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bitcoinminer
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November 27, 2011, 04:10:10 AM
 #263

I'm not sure I would trust my BTC OR my $$$ to a "financial institution" that uses google mail for their email system.

if you think you can do better as an exchange, then open one.

I am sure they had more important things to take care of then trying to maintain an email server.

...Or a SQL database of user passwords, or a customer service line, or a legal department, or proper programmers... or or or or or...

It's just symptomatic of the whole situation.  You can't run a hobby like a business, or a business like a hobby.  Pick what you're going to do, and do it the right way.

I have no desire to be an exchange of any kind of money.  If I were going to do that, I would buy nickels and melt them down.

Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful.

-Warren Buffett
klaus
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November 27, 2011, 06:37:16 AM
 #264


bored about your bla - bla. if you dont like mtgox use an other exchange. bye bye & never come back.


at what time you plan to get back to the topic of this thread?

thanks.

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mila
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December 10, 2011, 09:22:48 PM
 #265

at what time you plan to get back to the topic of this thread?
thanks.

I think it's abandoned & topic clear, court ruled
- no account for mtgox in France, needs financial service license.
- no court decision on bitcoin nature (is it money?)
case closed

your ad here:
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December 11, 2011, 12:11:36 AM
 #266

Thanks Mark for the update!

Bitcoin are most probably not money under any existing law but more or less digital collectibles with their value entirely determined by supply and demand. See https://blogdial.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/bitcoins-are-baseball-cards/ for a good writeup.

According to this view, you shouldn't have to comply to any additional regulations other than if you would operate an online exchange for say, Magic: The Gathering playing cards Wink

I lold

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December 11, 2011, 01:57:02 AM
 #267

France is screwing themselves over through this regulation.  Any country that regulates bitcoin will be left behind.  Dont fight the inevitable. If you cant beat bitcoin, join bitcoin.

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cbeast
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December 11, 2011, 02:29:48 AM
 #268

France is screwing themselves over through this regulation.  Any country that regulates bitcoin will be left behind.  Dont fight the inevitable. If you cant beat bitcoin, join bitcoin.

Like anyone follows France anyway.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
txcoin
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March 08, 2012, 02:52:38 PM
 #269

Would someone send me the PDFs of the court decisions and appeals? The original links seem to be broken. I'd like to see how the French weaseled around defining / touching Bitcoin itself Smiley

@gmail.com please

Thank you very much
txcoin

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wareen
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March 08, 2012, 04:02:51 PM
 #270

@gmail.com please

You've got mail.
txcoin
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March 08, 2012, 04:15:05 PM
 #271

Impressive, that was fast - now I already have:

*  August 31 "Ordonnance de Référé"


But I am still missing:

* Original August 11, 2011 Municipal Court Decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Ordonnance_de_refere_du_11_aout_2011.pdf

* And the more lengthy August 26 Appeals Court decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Arret_appel_26_aout_2011.pdf

* the October 18 decision which led to the halt of the SEPA activity

Does anyone have some of the above docs?


Cheers
txcoin

EDIT: It is August 31 not 30 Wink

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cypherdoc
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March 08, 2012, 04:20:40 PM
 #272

care to summarize the decision?  never heard anything about that.
txcoin
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March 08, 2012, 04:30:04 PM
 #273

But I am still missing:

* Original August 11, 2011 Municipal Court Decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Ordonnance_de_refere_du_11_aout_2011.pdf

* And the more lengthy August 26 Appeals Court decision:
   http://creperso.free.fr/CIC/Arret_appel_26_aout_2011.pdf

* the October 18 decision which led to the halt of the SEPA activity

Does anyone have some of the above docs?

Well, school French is a bit rusty, but I accept to post a summary for each of those decisions I get emailed - sounds like a very fair trade.

txcoin

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March 08, 2012, 04:52:50 PM
 #274

Rough summary of the August 11 decision (found a crippled version in a pastebin but better than nothing - PDF still appreciated):

MACARAJA SAS (MSAS) operates the bank account for MtGox. Bank Credit Industriel et Commercial (CIC) intended to close MSAS' account and finally did so on July 15. MSAS was unable to find any new bank account with another bank after that.

MSAS asked Bank of France for another bank to go to and they referred them back to CIC.

CIC refused, stating that the account was closed because of doubts about a misuse of the account for operations that it believes are regulated. MSAS states it is regular trade business.

Court says CIC has to open an account for MSAS. Legality of MSAS doings should/could be investigated at a later point in time.


The August 26 decision as found in the pastebin is very hard to read due to low OCR quality. I'd summarize it as follows:

The bank wants to get rid of the account again. They roughly describe MSAS/MtGox business model and what Bitcoin is. They proceed with complaining that MSAS is acting like a payment service or a bank. (It seems that all that arguing was not fruitful and MSAS should be given back their bank account.)


The August 31 decision does not add anything to that:

CIC canceled MSAS account on Aug 23 and shut it down on Aug 27.

Court subsumes that the cancellation / shutting down of the account does not stem from any new reasons not already known and discussed.

Consequently, the court rules that the account is to reopen and has to be continued, albeit only for "basic services".

Bitcoin as is not touched as a subject.


EDIT: The "original" PDFs (see posting directly above), and especially that of the October 18 decision are still highly appreciated. Smiley

EDIT2: Added the August 31 decision.

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BitcoinAndie
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March 08, 2012, 05:27:53 PM
 #275

France is screwing themselves over through this regulation.  Any country that regulates bitcoin will be left behind.  Dont fight the inevitable. If you cant beat bitcoin, join bitcoin.

Like anyone follows France anyway.

Actually this is a very bad thing for the people who will benefit most from BTCs, the developing markets. France still has a lot of power over some of the richest countries in Africa, and they continue to "lean" heavily on the natural resources of these nations.  Besides as France goes, so go the other weak "former" colonialists (Spain, Italy).  A strong example of how BTCs makes an effective and efficient reserve crytpo-currency in markets where the local currency has been completely blown out would be the most effective proof of BTCs utility and viability.

Maybe the thing to do would be to open up an account in one of the CFA Franc countries of Africa like the oil rich countries of Gabon or Equatorial Guinea.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.
Wandering Albatross
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March 08, 2012, 05:47:28 PM
 #276

Have you considered getting a new bank? Seems like you're trying to force a relationship with someone that's dumped you. Move on.

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wareen
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March 08, 2012, 11:42:44 PM
 #277

Have you considered getting a new bank? Seems like you're trying to force a relationship with someone that's dumped you. Move on.

Not like they haven't tried, but as soon as their bank turned them down, no other bank was willing to have them as customer as well.
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March 09, 2012, 12:08:35 AM
 #278

Have you considered getting a new bank? Seems like you're trying to force a relationship with someone that's dumped you. Move on.

Not like they haven't tried, but as soon as their bank turned them down, no other bank was willing to have them as customer as well.

Like sorority chicks.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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March 09, 2012, 02:59:52 AM
 #279

Quote from: wareen
Not like they haven't tried, but as soon as their bank turned them down, no other bank was willing to have them as customer as well.

Then open their owin bank. Why get caught up in the courtroom-death-spiral.

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March 09, 2012, 05:15:28 PM
 #280

Meh.
France is a stupid police state.
So are the US and the UK btw, but in a different way.

But don't worry, thanks to the power of the Internet, all these backward thinking patterns will be reprogrammed with time.
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