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Author Topic: Bitcoin in France: first legal decision directly related to Bitcoin?  (Read 57340 times)
Karmicads
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September 05, 2011, 11:46:03 AM
 #101

Half joking... let's just call Bitcoin a religion! Then, not only will it not be a money and subservient to the arbitrary rules of monies, but it will in fact be tax deductible!

Maybe it's the vodka talking =)

No my friend. That is the loving spirit of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, reaching out and touching you with his noodley appendage. This is a fantastic idea. FULL OF WIN!!

Furthermore, I say we define bitcoin as 'spiritual love', a blessing and a sacrament, and consider it blasphemy to equate it to any earthly currencies. Will the court's deny our religious freedom?  Grin
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Karmicads
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September 05, 2011, 11:57:08 AM
 #102

Half joking... let's just call Bitcoin a religion! Then, not only will it not be a money and subservient to the arbitrary rules of monies, but it will in fact be tax deductible!

Maybe it's the vodka talking =)

You are a genius

Guys, if we manage to create a religion that has bitcoin as a sacred thing, then every problem is solved.

And creating religions is possible, even sci-fi authors created some of great success!

I'm pretty sure considering the requirements for holding Bitcoins include blind faith and constant defending of your opinions, Bitcoin is already a religion, just much less profitable since our only prophet can't speak without a laptop in his lap.

You dare imply BW was a prophet!?
May all your private keys become public for suggesting such a thing!
Satoshi is the one and only bitcoin prophet.

Er... I would think Satoshi was the Mesiah (He's been taken up...). Gavin is our prophet, and Bruce? Hmm... I'd have to say he's a fallen angel at this point, but I'll reserve judgement until I see the horns ans hoofs.
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September 05, 2011, 12:33:22 PM
 #103

[registering to this interesting thread]

Articoli bitcoin: Il portico dipinto
Anduril
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September 05, 2011, 12:47:27 PM
 #104

Vivendi Universal is french, they own blizzard, blizzard runs WoW, that's billions of dollars in virtual goods.  One of which is a virtual currency.  Dofus comes to mind as well, that is distinctly french.  Anyway, if the bank holds accounts for these people, they should have to hold accounts for you as well, non?

No, third parties do not accept the currency as means of exchange, WoW gold does not meet the definitions.
grondilu
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September 05, 2011, 01:49:43 PM
 #105

(registering to this thread)
Wanna show up for the ruling ?

I don't know...  Is it possible to bring popcorn in the court?

Seriously, yeah I seriously consider showing up.  I've never attended this kind of stuff, though.  Any advice appreciated.
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September 05, 2011, 01:59:39 PM
 #106

So if I send my bitcoins from MtGox to my own wallet.dat (I live in europe) I would have to pay import tax?

Actually, no. And that is the beauty of it.

The actual balance is stored by the whole network, not on your physical computer. So by "sending" bitcoins, you don't really change their physical localization. It's just matter of complex mathematical computations.

By sending Bitcoins, you give somebody else the rights of ownership to the bitcoins, but they don't move themselves.

Unless the judge decides that the value is not attached to the code in the blockchain, but to the key that provides the right of ownership.

Well yeah... I guess everybody makes mistakes.

wareen
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September 05, 2011, 02:27:38 PM
 #107

Bitcoin is not a money, it's bitcoin. Don't try to interpret it with current laws, we'll most likely need a new set of laws to accommodate the way it works and the anonymity required.
I wish this were to happen.  Bitcoin is going to be pegged and labeled in the easiest way for them to understand, which is 'funny money' .. but still money.   
The problem is - they have to define it very specifically and that's not an easy thing to do. I can see lawyers and judges already hating us for bringing Bitcoin upon them Wink

I have a hard time envisioning a precise legal definition of crypto-currencies that would not interfere with some other basic rights or technologies (like cryptography or distributed databases). The thing is, that many of Bitcoin's technicalities could easily be changed if there was a great incentive to do so (how coins are issued, where the blockchain is stored, how transactions are processed, etc.).

It will probably be a looong time before jurisdictions really catch up with technologies like Bitcoin...
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September 05, 2011, 03:24:09 PM
 #108

Aren't Bitcoin really just notations in a ledger? Btc don't exist?
Users are simply paying to log a number of transactions in a secure, robust and pseudo-anonymous way.

It was a cunning plan to have the funny man be the money fan of the punning clan.
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September 05, 2011, 03:32:03 PM
 #109

Fascinating!

I'd speculate that that bitcoin will be declared as a "virtual currency" by the court.

I don't think you're the gambling type, but, well: place your bet: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=89 ("French court will rule Bitcoin as a virtual currency", 0.1 BTC agree, 25.80 BTC disagree. Pretty good odds should they decide it's a currency.

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indio007
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September 05, 2011, 07:52:28 PM
 #110

Aren't Bitcoin really just notations in a ledger? Btc don't exist?
Users are simply paying to log a number of transactions in a secure, robust and pseudo-anonymous way.

Yes but that is only one function. The ledger known as the blockchain is constantly audited by third-parties via block confirmations. Verification of the ledger pays in Bitcoins. An amount of Bitcoin is required to access to network and adjust the ledge/blockchain.
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September 05, 2011, 08:52:13 PM
 #111

Actually, no. And that is the beauty of it.

The actual balance is stored by the whole network, not on your physical computer. So by "sending" bitcoins, you don't really change their physical localization. It's just matter of complex mathematical computations.

By sending Bitcoins, you give somebody else the rights of ownership to the bitcoins, but they don't move themselves.

This all depends on the final legal status. Law is known to not care much about technical sense.

I am not sure if I have missed it, so here the question:

Do you expect a ruling on Sep 13 or will this only be the start of the lawsuit?

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September 05, 2011, 10:43:31 PM
 #112

this looks to me like they're passively criminalizing Bitcoins:

"We don't understand it and we don't control it and the government doesn't back it, so we'd rather not do business with you."

My guess is that lawmakers around the world are going to come up with a shitload of contradicting and outrageously ignorant laws regarding Bitcoin which will give Bitcoin users and businesses an increasing pain in the ass until they decide to simply ignore other people's law and government and establish their own.

I know this is way off, but:
initially the idea of bitcoin was to abandon the need for banks alltogether, now it seems like bitcoin businesses rely on the banks' and legislation's goodwill in order to carry out their business.

it's ironic. but if institutions like that really bannished bitcoins it might draw the whole thing closer to what satoshi had initially intended.

MagicalTux
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September 05, 2011, 10:52:50 PM
 #113

I am not sure if I have missed it, so here the question:

Do you expect a ruling on Sep 13 or will this only be the start of the lawsuit?


It's only the start date, where both parties will provide elements under their possession to argument. Chances are it'll take a few weeks before a definitive answer is found.

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September 06, 2011, 06:07:19 AM
 #114

Speaking about wow gold and other mmo things, it's stated that ALL the mmo things are property of the software house. So every wow gold is property of Blizzard, no matter what. Of course if you are playing wow you can use them, but you can't go around and say "i OWN 100 wow gold"

As for bitcoin well we need them to treat it like gold

You don't own bitcoins. You own keys that allows you to give authorization to other people's key to use some coins. The coins really are in the blockchain, which is everywhere.

There are no bitcoins. All we have is this public ledger.

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molecular
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September 06, 2011, 06:33:56 AM
 #115

Half joking... let's just call Bitcoin a religion! Then, not only will it not be a money and subservient to the arbitrary rules of monies, but it will in fact be tax deductible!

Maybe it's the vodka talking =)

You are a genius

Guys, if we manage to create a religion that has bitcoin as a sacred thing, then every problem is solved.

And creating religions is possible, even sci-fi authors created some of great success!

Just talked to my god, the fsm. It says: "Hell, yea!"

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Vladimir
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September 06, 2011, 07:03:01 AM
 #116

I have in the last census my religion as Jedi. Happy to convert to Bitcoin religion now. Agree to be a high priest.


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September 06, 2011, 07:43:21 AM
 #117



You don't own bitcoins. You own keys that allows you to give authorization to other people's key to use some coins. The coins really are in the blockchain, which is everywhere.
[/quote]

There are no bitcoins. All we have is this public ledger.
[/quote]

Were BitCoin a religion that would make the Bitcoin Block Explorer a holy book?!

BTC: 1J7AeYuvezWdj8Jqm9UxyXCNbgjkqEK5Yy
UFC: BxWhBBwtSdS5QAX6jXawjEnVvTxivJkziW
GPL: F79fP4NEizmgpztJ4g3NZ86SgwmiT9vU3r
LTC: LeJgWDDJVodjW58P66gWd4MyJdCtYbs3eT
The_Duke
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September 06, 2011, 07:44:34 AM
 #118


Were BitCoin a religion that would make the Bitcoin Block Explorer a holy book?!

More like an empty book, the way the price is going atm.

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Donate to the BitKitty Foundation instead! -> 1Fd4yLneGmxRHnPi6WCMC2hAMzaWvDePF9 <-
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September 06, 2011, 08:06:36 AM
 #119

I think when people realize the value Bitcoin is *NOT* what some silly bank in France decide or their legal system dictates, or what what the mainstream media makes of it, then the exchange rate will follow upwards. The more laws Bitcoin break, the better it will be in that aspect.

The true value of Bitcoin comes (or will come eventually) from the rigid system itself, the simple fact it is free from regulations, and not affected by any laws in any country even if it were to be declared illegal.

This means Bitcoin will outlive any country laws, any exchanges, any shit you throw at it, because that is the core purpose of it.


...and for those worrying about laws making the rate go down, ask yourself; what happened to the price of liquor during prohibition in USA?

Need modchips? We accept BTC...
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September 06, 2011, 08:52:01 AM
 #120


...and for those worrying about laws making the rate go down, ask yourself; what happened to the price of liquor during prohibition in USA?

If bitcoins were the only way to make payments, then that comparison would have at least a tiny bit of sense...

NOT a member of the so called ''Bitcoin Foundation''. Choose Independence!

Donate to the BitKitty Foundation instead! -> 1Fd4yLneGmxRHnPi6WCMC2hAMzaWvDePF9 <-
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