POLL | Should Gavin decline or accept the CFR invite ?

[Hippie Tech]

Main thread : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=412846.0

This poll will remain open until February 6, the day of the meeting.

Please do your own research on the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR), its members and the other groups/ clubs they belong to, before participating in this non-binding poll.

pEACe

HT xD

UPDATE

With only a few more days to go before the meeting, I here by declare my opinion poll, a resounding success.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=418110.0

While it may appear that we, who oppose this collaboration with these indignants have lost, we have in fact won !

WE ARE THE 33% ! .. and counting..

WE represent the 90% of the world's population who do not have the resources and/or the capability to participate.

WE represent the enslaved, war torn peoples of the world.

WE, the real majority, WILL DEMAND JUSTICE !

VERITAS AEQUITAS !

So be it.

pEACe

[HairyMaclairy]

Leave the poor guy alone !

[exocytosis]

I find it strange how he and some others in the Bitcoin Foundation seemingly seek approval from the powers that be. Satoshi's original vision was clearly anarchist or libertarian. Isn't Bitcoin supposed to undermine the current monetary system? Isn't Bitcoin supposed to take power away from the banksters and their lackeys -- the politicians? Would Satoshi break bread with the CIA and the CFR?

An open CFR meeting might be okay, but this one's supposed to be closed.

[billyjoeallen]

One does not simply decline an invitation from the CFR. That would be like declining to pay your taxes.

[ascalon]

Whether we all agree or disagree is irrelevant, he is his own man and he can do whatever he wants.

[franky1]

Whether we all agree or disagree is irrelevant, he is his own man and he can do whatever he wants.

+1

[Holliday]

Whether we all agree or disagree is irrelevant, he is his own man and he can do whatever he wants.

+1

[Hippie Tech]

I find it strange how he and some others in the Bitcoin Foundation seemingly seek approval from the powers that be. Satoshi's original vision was clearly anarchist or libertarian. Isn't Bitcoin supposed to undermine the current monetary system? Isn't Bitcoin supposed to take power away from the banksters and their lackeys -- the politicians? Would Satoshi break bread with the CIA and the CFR?

An open CFR meeting might be okay, but this one's supposed to be closed.

I decided not to include the, 'accept - if the meeting is transparent', option because an open meeting can easily be staged and manipulated.

Whether we all agree or disagree is irrelevant, he is his own man and he can do whatever he wants.

While that is true, the Crypto community also has right to express how they feel about those descisions.

[Bitware]

The aristocracy has summoned Gavin. Surely its a hefty penalty not to obey your rulers summons.

[TheButterZone]

This poll won't keep him from going. However, here's where the poll could be good...

CFR chairperson: And now we'd like to welcome Gavin Andresen, lead bitcoin developer, to speak about the leading cryptocurrency and blah blah blah.

Gavin: "Thank you chairperson, and thank you CFR councilors. Let me start out by saying, there was a poll on the main bitcoin web forum about whether I should accept or decline your invitation to speak today, and 50% thought you were all enemies of humankind and should be punished accordingly..." [casually pours some water out of the pitcher, and take a sip, looking wistfully off in the distance, exhaling] "Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer payment system and digital currency introduced as open source software in 2009 by pseudonymous developer Satoshi Nakamoto..."

[b!z]

Whether we all agree or disagree is irrelevant, he is his own man and he can do whatever he wants.

That is true. The users are the true decision makers, not the developers.

[LightRider]

Actually, if we devote over half of all bitcoin network hashing power to making Gavin NOT go, then we can totally pull off a denial of conference attack. And even if he does somehow make it to the meeting, we can double spend his time so that he would actually unappear and spend his time somewhere else like enjoying time with family or fixing 51% attacks-...wait...that would retroactively make it so that he DID go to the meeting, making it so that we COULDN'T doubletimespend his appearance, making it so that he COULDN'T fix the 51% attack thus ending the universe...

This is really bad you guys.

[guybrushthreepwood]

He should go, but just march in, drop his trousers and squeeze out a steamer right in front of them, then pick up his stuff and leave.

Actually, don't do that. Go and see what they have to say.

[cfrm]

What a stupid poll. He is free to do whatever he wishes and of course he should go and speak Bitcoins case. I have no doubt some people after the meeting will be more positive towards Bitcoins, so not going would be stupid.

[exocytosis]

I have no doubt some people after the meeting will be more positive towards Bitcoins, so not going would be stupid.

Why would they be more positive?

[mtnminer]

We need someone like Gavin speaking to them and giving intelligent, educated answers.  Most often fear is born from ignorance!

Mtnminer

[kwest]

Whatever your opinion of the members of the CfR... it would be insanely stupid to not go.
Keep your friends close and all of that.

Note: This reply does NOT insinuate that I think the CfR is our enemy. But some people here definitely have that view, and IMO even they should be able to see the benefit of going.

[Lauda]

Clicking the decline button, means that you're paranoid.
Let him decide.

[JohnsonRobinson]

By playing his current roll in Bitcoin development, Gavin has a major responsibility to the Bitcoin community, which wants to see Bitcoin flourish, yes for their own good, but also for the good of everyone / the masses.

The CFR is not a "greater good" organization...in fact, they're amongst the best example of the worst moral position that there is for a group...Limited Utilitarianism.   

According to Limited Utilitarianism, an action is right when it brings about as much happiness for your group as any available alternative.  In short, helping them understand Bitcoin just makes it more likely that they'll somehow coopt it/weaponize it against us.

[BTCisthefuture]

IMO it's always a good thing to have someone from the bitcoin community (especially someone with as much knowledge as Gavin)  to try to educate people on the virtues of bitcoin.

I would argue it's even better if they talk about the benefits of bitcoin to someone you don't like or someone who might be anti bitcoin, because it's those people who need the most education on bitcoin.

Never anything wrong with talking about bitcoin.

[JohnsonRobinson]

IMO it's always a good thing to have someone from the bitcoin community (especially someone with as much knowledge as Gavin)  to try to educate people on the virtues of bitcoin.

I would argue it's even better if they talk about the benefits of bitcoin to someone you don't like or someone who might be anti bitcoin, because it's those people who need the most education on bitcoin.

Never anything wrong with talking about bitcoin.

"The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior".

Applying this to the CFR, what would be the best possible outcome, in your eyes, from this meeting between CFR and Gavin.

[TippingPoint]

Keep your friends close, and you enemies even closer.

[Adrian-x]

I may vote if this was a possibility

Gavin, here is my advice:

1. Put up a sign with a giant middle finger on it.
2. Say nothing.
3. Leave the room.

[FandangledGizmo]

I may vote if this was a possibility

Gavin, here is my advice:

1. Put up a sign with a giant middle finger on it.
2. Say nothing.
3. Leave the room.

And if they say

'Um Gavin, we already easily control over 51% of the hashing power, would you like to reconsider?'

 

[Adrian-x]

I may vote if this was a possibility

Gavin, here is my advice:

1. Put up a sign with a giant middle finger on it.
2. Say nothing.
3. Leave the room.

And if they say

'Um Gavin, we already easily control over 51% of the hashing power, would you like to reconsider?'
 

I was thinking he'd be out of there, anyway what is, is what is. So why not work within the guidelines.
This is all quite humorous. For this Ideology and technology clash my guide on the subject is still Douglas Adams. He saw the shift coming over a decade before anyone.

[whtchocla7e]

Silence is submission. Show them that Bitcoin has a voice.

[eldentyrell]

I find it strange how he and some others in the Bitcoin Foundation seemingly seek approval from the powers that be.

I don't find it strange, I find it sad.

[lunarboy]

   ROCK  ... GAVIN     ..... HARD PLACE   

[guybrushthreepwood]

I find it strange how he and some others in the Bitcoin Foundation seemingly seek approval from the powers that be.

I don't find it strange, I find it sad.

Who says they’re seeking approval?

[LiteCoinGuy]

he should speak to them.

[exocytosis]

Here's a quote from Gavin:

"I think the goals of this project are to create a better currency, create a more competitive and efficient international payment system, and give people more direct control over their finances.  And I don't think any of those goals are incompatible with the goals of government."

And here's a Satoshi quote:

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own."

No disagreement there, I guess ...

[empoweoqwj]

He should go. He or bitcoin has nothing to hide. Go forth and educate the masses, spread the word!

[Hippie Tech]

Carroll Quigley: Our Tragedy and Their Hope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRkCvubUGCM

[zeetubes]

I think he should say, "hey guys, just thought I'd drop in and say hi. You and your corrupt brethren may not be around by this time next year so perhaps we can take a couple of photos for posterity...."

[Denton]

Of course he should go, isn't that the point of the bitcoin foundation?

[Hippie Tech]

America : Freedom to Fascism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNNeVu8wUak

Rest in pEACe, Mr. Russo.

[Bitware]

So why not work within the guidelines.

Who's guidelines and what are those guidelines?

[Adrian-x]

So why not work within the guidelines.

Who's guidelines and what are those guidelines?

They are 1) I believe he has accepted so he is going
2) they expect an appearance  3) a big cardboard finger is left in front of the mic while he excuses himself and leaves.

[Hippie Tech]

So why not work within the guidelines.

Who's guidelines and what are those guidelines?

They are 1) I believe he has accepted so he is going
2) they expect an appearance  3) a big cardboard finger is left in front of the mic while he excuses himself and leaves.

Don't forget to include a caption that reads :

"On behalf of the people of the world who you have enslaved, occupied and bombed... "

[Vlad2Vlad]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

[empoweoqwj]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

FWIW, I happen to agree. Bitcoin has to play ball if it wants to grow. A truly anonymous currency like ZeroCoin will just get stamped on by every government in the world.

[exocytosis]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

You are, of course, absolutely right. And yes, Gavin and the rest of the Bitcoin developers will obey the government and the banksters.

[empoweoqwj]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

You are, of course, absolutely right. And yes, Gavin and the rest of the Bitcoin developers will obey the government and the banksters.

Its not about "obeying" - its about co-operating so that bitcoin can operate in a regulated environment. Try operating an ATM or exchange if the feds are after you all the time.

[exocytosis]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

You are, of course, absolutely right. And yes, Gavin and the rest of the Bitcoin developers will obey the government and the banksters.

Its not about "obeying" - its about co-operating so that bitcoin can operate in a regulated environment. Try operating an ATM or exchange if the feds are after you all the time.

Indeed. And I'm sure Satoshi would applaud such cooperation. That's why he said things like:

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own."

[Hippie Tech]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

You are, of course, absolutely right. And yes, Gavin and the rest of the Bitcoin developers will obey the government and the banksters.

Its not about "obeying" - its about co-operating so that bitcoin can operate in a regulated environment. Try operating an ATM or exchange if the feds are after you all the time.

Indeed. And I'm sure Satoshi would applaud such cooperation. That's why he said things like:

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own."

I beg to differ as you have severely misunderstood and/or underestimated Mr. Nakamoto's statement. He is in fact saying the complete opposite.

Moral and political reasoning aside, we simply DO NOT NEED THEM.

So.. go ahead.. ride that gator's back across the river.

[empoweoqwj]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

You are, of course, absolutely right. And yes, Gavin and the rest of the Bitcoin developers will obey the government and the banksters.

Its not about "obeying" - its about co-operating so that bitcoin can operate in a regulated environment. Try operating an ATM or exchange if the feds are after you all the time.

Indeed. And I'm sure Satoshi would applaud such cooperation. That's why he said things like:

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own."

I beg to differ as you have severely misunderstood and/or underestimated Mr. Nakamoto's statement. He is in fact saying the complete opposite.

Moral and political reasoning aside, we simply DO NOT NEED THEM.

So.. go ahead.. ride that gator's back across the river.

We absolutely need government support, or you end up with a currency that is just used for illegal activities and will eventually all be seized by the feds, just my 2 cents .....

[Vlad2Vlad]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

You are, of course, absolutely right. And yes, Gavin and the rest of the Bitcoin developers will obey the government and the banksters.

Its not about "obeying" - its about co-operating so that bitcoin can operate in a regulated environment. Try operating an ATM or exchange if the feds are after you all the time.

Indeed. And I'm sure Satoshi would applaud such cooperation. That's why he said things like:

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own."

I beg to differ as you have severely misunderstood and/or underestimated Mr. Nakamoto's statement. He is in fact saying the complete opposite.

Moral and political reasoning aside, we simply DO NOT NEED THEM.

So.. go ahead.. ride that gator's back across the river.

We absolutely need government support, or you end up with a currency that is just used for illegal activities and will eventually all be seized by the feds, just my 2 cents .....

It's not been about need.  We don't have a choice.  You people think the govts, the fed and banks are just gonna give up all that power, money and control to the masses?

Bhahahaaaaa.

That will never happen.  They can see these currencies can give them total control over the masses and they're gonna play it nice and slow to not scare anyone away but in the end whatever currency ends up being the global currency it will be controlled by the same people and they will use it to enslave the masses, err, fight poverty and terrorism.  lol.

[empoweoqwj]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

You are, of course, absolutely right. And yes, Gavin and the rest of the Bitcoin developers will obey the government and the banksters.

Its not about "obeying" - its about co-operating so that bitcoin can operate in a regulated environment. Try operating an ATM or exchange if the feds are after you all the time.

Indeed. And I'm sure Satoshi would applaud such cooperation. That's why he said things like:

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own."

I beg to differ as you have severely misunderstood and/or underestimated Mr. Nakamoto's statement. He is in fact saying the complete opposite.

Moral and political reasoning aside, we simply DO NOT NEED THEM.

So.. go ahead.. ride that gator's back across the river.

We absolutely need government support, or you end up with a currency that is just used for illegal activities and will eventually all be seized by the feds, just my 2 cents .....

It's not been about need.  We don't have a choice.  You people think the govts, the fed and banks are just gonna give up all that power, money and control to the masses?

Bhahahaaaaa.

That will never happen.  They can see these currencies can give them total control over the masses and they're gonna play it nice and slow to not scare anyone away but in the end whatever currency ends up being the global currency it will be controlled by the same people and they will use it to enslave the masses, err, fight poverty and terrorism.  lol.

You are right. We don't have a choice. Governments set regulations. Regulations define what can and can't be done in their country. If you are saying its inevitable governments will inevitably end up controlling bitcoin you may ..... unfortunately be right. But I still don't think Gavin has anything to lose by talking  to people

[Hippie Tech]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

You are, of course, absolutely right. And yes, Gavin and the rest of the Bitcoin developers will obey the government and the banksters.

Its not about "obeying" - its about co-operating so that bitcoin can operate in a regulated environment. Try operating an ATM or exchange if the feds are after you all the time.

Indeed. And I'm sure Satoshi would applaud such cooperation. That's why he said things like:

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own."

I beg to differ as you have severely misunderstood and/or underestimated Mr. Nakamoto's statement. He is in fact saying the complete opposite.

Moral and political reasoning aside, we simply DO NOT NEED THEM.

So.. go ahead.. ride that gator's back across the river.

We absolutely need government support, or you end up with a currency that is just used for illegal activities and will eventually all be seized by the feds, just my 2 cents .....

It's not been about need.  We don't have a choice.  You people think the govts, the fed and banks are just gonna give up all that power, money and control to the masses?

Bhahahaaaaa.

That will never happen.  They can see these currencies can give them total control over the masses and they're gonna play it nice and slow to not scare anyone away but in the end whatever currency ends up being the global currency it will be controlled by the same people and they will use it to enslave the masses, err, fight poverty and terrorism.  lol.

But it can happen.

They are playing nice because they know we can throw the TOR and IP2 blankets over their heads and disappear from their radar.

@ empoweoqwj  I'm sooo tired of seeing people fall for the silk road/ illegal activities excuse/ cop out. eg. 70-90% of USD has traces of narcotics on it or is used in other illegal ways.

[Hippie Tech]

WARNING !!

We have everything to gain !

They have everything to lose !

[empoweoqwj]

You people are naive.  I've said from day one there is no such thing as anonymous digital currencies and whatever digital currency is chosen as the global currency, it will be owned and controlled by the same powers who control money now, only they will use this new power of digital money to completely control the sheep masses who were too stupid to see this coming.

In other words, if Bitcoin doesn't play ball they will destroy it very easily via media propaganda and legislation and replace it with a different currency.  There will never be anything like ZeroCoin in circulation and you can bet if Bitcoin were to adopt ZeroCoin it would be destroyed.

So stop asking silly questions.  The real question is:  will Gavin et al obey the govt and banks all the way and if they don't which coin will they choose as its replacement?

That is the only relevant question.

You are, of course, absolutely right. And yes, Gavin and the rest of the Bitcoin developers will obey the government and the banksters.

Its not about "obeying" - its about co-operating so that bitcoin can operate in a regulated environment. Try operating an ATM or exchange if the feds are after you all the time.

Indeed. And I'm sure Satoshi would applaud such cooperation. That's why he said things like:

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years. Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own."

I beg to differ as you have severely misunderstood and/or underestimated Mr. Nakamoto's statement. He is in fact saying the complete opposite.

Moral and political reasoning aside, we simply DO NOT NEED THEM.

So.. go ahead.. ride that gator's back across the river.

We absolutely need government support, or you end up with a currency that is just used for illegal activities and will eventually all be seized by the feds, just my 2 cents .....

It's not been about need.  We don't have a choice.  You people think the govts, the fed and banks are just gonna give up all that power, money and control to the masses?

Bhahahaaaaa.

That will never happen.  They can see these currencies can give them total control over the masses and they're gonna play it nice and slow to not scare anyone away but in the end whatever currency ends up being the global currency it will be controlled by the same people and they will use it to enslave the masses, err, fight poverty and terrorism.  lol.

But it can happen.

They are playing nice because they know we can throw the TOR and IP2 blankets over their heads and disappear from their radar.

@ empoweoqwj  I'm sooo tired of seeing people fall for the silk road/ illegal activities excuse/ cop out. eg. 70-90% of USD has traces of narcotics on it or is used in other illegal ways.

All I was saying is if governments ban bitcoins from being used for legal purposes, like buying and selling stuff online or offline, or trading it, then all you have left is the illegal stuff. Not a complex argument and I've not "fallen" for anything.

Of course I understand cash is used for narcotic purchases. But cash is used legally for other things. If bitcoin is banned, it can only be used for illegal things.

[Vlad2Vlad]

People don't seem to understand that one single executive order would ban bitcoin based on national security and no entity would accept it which would render it useless except for illegal use.

It's that easy and the fact the govt hasnt fine it proves they have plans for it and if Bitcoin doesn't obey they will choose a different currency (iXcoin) and then find an easy way to kill BTC.

[empoweoqwj]

People don't seem to understand that one single executive order would ban bitcoin based on national security and no entity would accept it which would render it useless except for illegal use.

It's that easy and the fact the govt hasnt fine it proves they have plans for it and if Bitcoin doesn't obey they will choose a different currency (iXcoin) and then find an easy way to kill BTC.

Of course the US government could ban bitcoin in an instant. Which is why the bitcoin community has to "play ball" if they want bitcoin to become a real economic force. Its what worries me about attempts to make a "totally anonymous coin" - now that is something everything government will quickly make illegal. What's the point?

[JohnsonRobinson]

Governments will be unable to stop a Bitcoin-based money that serves the masses.

Those who tell us:  "we need to ask for permission" from the parasitic psychopath ultra-elite (i.e. CFR, etc.), don't recognize that we now have the tool to take away their power; or they do recognize it but want to convince us of otherwise.

Those who tell us:  "we need to work within the framework" that holds abusive power over us, don't recognize that we now have the tool to create a new framework, a new paradigm; or they do recognize it but want to convince us of otherwise.

To Bitcoiners everywhere, we must be very careful of any who want to convince us that we have less power than we actually do; and of any who want to convince us that we should give up that power.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

My instincts believe yes, hence...

[empoweoqwj]

My instincts believe yes, hence...

"Hence"? .... leave in a state of suspense

[Vlad2Vlad]

Governments will be unable to stop a Bitcoin-based money that serves the masses.

Those who tell us:  "we need to ask for permission" from the parasitic psychopath ultra-elite (i.e. CFR, etc.), don't recognize that we now have the tool to take away their power; or they do recognize it but want to convince us of otherwise.

Those who tell us:  "we need to work within the framework" that holds abusive power over us, don't recognize that we now have the tool to create a new framework, a new paradigm; or they do recognize it but want to convince us of otherwise.

To Bitcoiners everywhere, we must be very careful of any who want to convince us that we have less power than we actually do; and of any who want to convince us that we should give up that power.

What power?  If they ban BTC, and they can, what will you do with all your BTC? You can't even wipe your ass with them?

Where will you spend them when no reputable place will take them and anyone who does risks prison?

That's not power, that's powerless and the whole point of this money is to take the little power the masses have and give it all to the Feds bad banks and look:  it's working brilliantly cause people are sheep.  Bitcoin was nothing more than the carrot, soon they will not need it anymore and they will use a different coin without the bad press and without some foundation to get in their way.

[JohnsonRobinson]

I said Bitcoin-BASED, meaning the consensus-driven technology that underlies Bitcoin.  That's here to stay.

I would like to see Bitcoin succeed, but if it doesn't, a different crypto based on the technology underlying it will succeed, for the benefit of the masses. 

Given this reality, there's no point at this stage in giving Bitcoin up to / asking permission from, the ultra-elite power mongers (e.g., CFR, etc., etc.).  It's just a waste.

We don't need a baby-sitter and the would-be baby-sitters don't have the right to be our baby-sitters.

That's the bottom line.

[Vlad2Vlad]

I said Bitcoin-BASED, meaning the consensus-driven technology that underlies Bitcoin.  That's here to stay.

I would like to see Bitcoin succeed, but if it doesn't, a different crypto based on the technology underlying it will succeed, for the benefit of the masses. 

Given this reality, there's no point at this stage in giving Bitcoin up to / asking permission from, the ultra-elite power mongers (e.g., CFR, etc., etc.).  It's just a waste.

We don't need a baby-sitter and the would-be baby-sitters don't have the right to be our baby-sitters.

That's the bottom line.

I agree they cannot kill this tech but no crypto money will succeed without their approval.  That's a guarantee.  What that means is that whichever currency succeeds will in fact be their choice and under their control.  So they will know when you buy condoms and when you give your kid $5 and they'll turn off your wallet at will. 

And that is the purpose of these currencies as you will all realize in due time.  They we're never made for the masses as they simply cannot survive without govt approval.

[HarmZ]

It's ridiculous that there is a poll for this. How about we let Gavin decide for himself.

Also when I read all the comments here about governments I can't help but think that eventually one of them will start mining bitcoin (or some other altcoin) industrially. And when that happens other governments will soon follow (at least I hope so or else the coin will be lost) =. Which probably has some very interesting effects on the whole cryptocurrency community.

How do you guys think about that?

[JohnsonRobinson]

I said Bitcoin-BASED, meaning the consensus-driven technology that underlies Bitcoin.  That's here to stay.

I would like to see Bitcoin succeed, but if it doesn't, a different crypto based on the technology underlying it will succeed, for the benefit of the masses. 

Given this reality, there's no point at this stage in giving Bitcoin up to / asking permission from, the ultra-elite power mongers (e.g., CFR, etc., etc.).  It's just a waste.

We don't need a baby-sitter and the would-be baby-sitters don't have the right to be our baby-sitters.

That's the bottom line.

I agree they cannot kill this tech but no crypto money will succeed without their approval.  That's a guarantee.  What that means is that whichever currency succeeds will in fact be their choice and under their control.  So they will know when you buy condoms and when you give your kid $5 and they'll turn off your wallet at will. 

And that is the purpose of these currencies as you will all realize in due time.  They we're never made for the masses as they simply cannot survive without govt approval.

I will have to respectfully disagree.  This is an extremely defeatist attitude.

If we ever want to actually be able to describe ourselves as being the 'civilized' race that we purport to be, we have to figure out a way to live in balance with each other and the planet.

Bottom line for this is that we the masses have to figure out a way to protect ourselves from the tiny subset of our global society that is continuously rising to hold abusive power over us.

A cornerstone of their current power is the parasitic, rent-seeking fiat money system that they have convinced us to use.

The current emerging cryptocurrency technology, which is decentralized and consensus-based, is an unbelievable revolution that will allow us, the greater good masses, to overthrow these scumbags, so that we can get on with 'project civilization', on with living in balance with each other and the planet.

We're not asking for permission!

[Luckybit]

I find it strange how he and some others in the Bitcoin Foundation seemingly seek approval from the powers that be. Satoshi's original vision was clearly anarchist or libertarian. Isn't Bitcoin supposed to undermine the current monetary system? Isn't Bitcoin supposed to take power away from the banksters and their lackeys -- the politicians? Would Satoshi break bread with the CIA and the CFR?

An open CFR meeting might be okay, but this one's supposed to be closed.

It's not about seeking approval. They aren't inviting Gavin to discuss politics. Bitcoin is beyond one political ideology. You're an anarchist, most of us here are sympathizers with anarchist or libertarian views, but it does not mean the mainstream Bitcoin user will be and we have to understand that once you invent something you have to step away from it politically. At this point Bitcoin is just a tool to be used for the benefit of mankind.

If the CFR wants to know more about it then someone has to explain it. Just like the Internet had to be explained and Twitter.

[empoweoqwj]

I find it strange how he and some others in the Bitcoin Foundation seemingly seek approval from the powers that be. Satoshi's original vision was clearly anarchist or libertarian. Isn't Bitcoin supposed to undermine the current monetary system? Isn't Bitcoin supposed to take power away from the banksters and their lackeys -- the politicians? Would Satoshi break bread with the CIA and the CFR?

An open CFR meeting might be okay, but this one's supposed to be closed.

It's not about seeking approval. They aren't inviting Gavin to discuss politics. Bitcoin is beyond one political ideology. You're an anarchist, most of us here are sympathizers with anarchist or libertarian views, but it does not mean the mainstream Bitcoin user will be and we have to understand that once you invent something you have to step away from it politically. At this point Bitcoin is just a tool to be used for the benefit of mankind.

If the CFR wants to know more about it then someone has to explain it. Just like the Internet had to be explained and Twitter.

Can't say it any better than that. Gavin isn't "sucking up" to anyone by explaining how bitcoin works. Lots of people need lots of education on bitcoin. I don't see what the fuss is about.

[exocytosis]

At this point Bitcoin is just a tool to be used for the benefit of mankind.

Yeah. I'm sure that's why they'll be discussing it behind closed doors.

[empoweoqwj]

At this point Bitcoin is just a tool to be used for the benefit of mankind.

Yeah. I'm sure that's why they'll be discussing it behind closed doors.

"Closed doors" is how they roll. Sure Gavin will be able to open the door and leave once its over

[Hippie Tech]

Its as if the forum is trying to speak to me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=425028.0

Bitcoin is the gateway to a cashless society drug.

Did that $1000 BTC get you a little high ?

Don't forget to bring your RFID chip !

[Hippie Tech]

Isn't iPaint fun ?

Great - a new coin I did not know yet

Peace!

devnullius

Do you know who those people are ?

[Hippie Tech]

In case you're wondering, my previous two posts were aimed at those in the 'accept' camp.

Are you really that hooked on the $1000 dream ?

Or, are you content believing everything the mainstream media has to say about our warpig, peace prize winning presidents and bird sanctuary prime ministers ?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-lays-cornerstone-at-hula-valley-bird-sanctuary-1.2506145

[tvbcof]

At this point Bitcoin is just a tool to be used for the benefit of mankind.

Yeah. I'm sure that's why they'll be discussing it behind closed doors.

"Closed doors" is how they roll. Sure Gavin will be able to open the door and leave once its over

Of course he will.  Gavin is the guy who leaked the docs detailing the coin blacklisting discussions taking place within the Bitcoin Foundation, right?  No?  Er...maybe not so much.

[howzar]

People don't seem to understand that one single executive order would ban bitcoin based on national security and no entity would accept it which would render it useless except for illegal use.

It's that easy and the fact the govt hasnt fine it proves they have plans for it and if Bitcoin doesn't obey they will choose a different currency (iXcoin) and then find an easy way to kill BTC.

[Vlad2Vlad]

People don't seem to understand that one single executive order would ban bitcoin based on national security and no entity would accept it which would render it useless except for illegal use.

It's that easy and the fact the govt hasnt fine it proves they have plans for it and if Bitcoin doesn't obey they will choose a different currency (iXcoin) and then find an easy way to kill BTC.

Hey, you just quoted me....without quoting me.

[MarketNeutral]

Enjoy yourself, Gavin. 

Be sure to hand out some USB miners to help grease the wheels, and tell 'em that they, too, can mine a few satoshis before the difficulty skyrockets again.

[Ibian]

Reminder: Bitcoin is global.

Yeah, they could ban it - in the states. The rest of the world will decide on their own. Given the economic implications, some countries are going to accept it whatever is decided in our corner of the world. Perhaps especially if we ban it. And maybe getting rid of the states would be a good thing similar to how SR turned out to be. The world does not revolve around the US.

Then there is the banking angle. Andrew Jackson killed the banks. Bitcoin could end up doing a repeat performance, and there may be political groups who speculate on this.

[MarketNeutral]

And, Gavin, if you see Satoshi there, be sure to say hi for me. 

[Mr. Gabu]

Why vote? He doesn't care about the community.

[Hippie Tech]

Rest in Peace, Mr. Chavez.

The Assassination of Hugo Chavez - Greg Palast --> http://youtu.be/eJMkl-DfROM

analogy :

a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

[Vlad2Vlad]

Rest in Peace, Mr. Chavez.

The Assassination of Hugo Chavez - Greg Palast --> http://youtu.be/eJMkl-DfROM

analogy :

a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

Nobody saw that coming.  lol.

[flower1024]

i am missing the option "let gavindecide what he wants to do"

[Hippie Tech]

i am missing the option "let gavindecide what he wants to do"

Did you miss the "non-binding" part posted in the OP ?

Does our freedom to express ourselves bother you ?

[Hippie Tech]

Rest in Peace, Mr. Chavez.

The Assassination of Hugo Chavez - Greg Palast --> http://youtu.be/eJMkl-DfROM

analogy :

a comparison between two things, typically on the basis of their structure and for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

Nobody saw that coming.  lol.

The 10-20% (the rich), won't see the other 80% of us coming either.

[flower1024]

i am missing the option "let gavindecide what he wants to do"

Did you miss the "non-binding" part posted in the OP ?

Does our freedom to express ourselves bother you ?

anything posted on this forum is not-binding for gavin.
its my freedom to express that i think the poll is unfair.

[BCB]

Gavin is probably the best Bitcoin's advocates out there.

[Hippie Tech]

i am missing the option "let gavindecide what he wants to do"

Did you miss the "non-binding" part posted in the OP ?

Does our freedom to express ourselves bother you ?

anything posted on this forum is not-binding for gavin.
its my freedom to express that i think the poll is unfair.

Correct. Thus why I named the thread as I did.

This is our opportunity to tell the World, how we feel about an unelected centralized authority, eg. the BTC foundation, and the company they keep.

Fairness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

[tvbcof]

Gavin is probably the best Bitcoin's advocates out there.

To make the CFR happy?  You are, in fact, probably right.  It doesn't take a hard-core cryptoanarchist to consider that as being in the 'damned with faint praise' category.

[Hippie Tech]

Future Bitcoin regulations..   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i92tA02xBV4

Charles Lee, founder of Litecoin, speaks on the matter....  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5zwPpRm4uQ

[BCB]

Charles Lee ROCKED the New York State Department of Financial Services BitLicense Hearing.  Watch it if you can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OEJiWhCOEk

When asked by Benjamin Lawsky about risks to the Bitcoin network Lee responded in all seriousness:  "If the government is concerned about the security of the network, they should start mining."

Now that is how distributed consensus works!

 

[Hippie Tech]

With only a few more days to go before the meeting, I here by declare my opinion poll, a resounding success.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=418110.0

While it may appear that we, who oppose this collaboration with these indignants, have lost, we have in fact won !

WE ARE THE 33% ! .. and counting..

WE represent the 90% of the world's population who do not have the resources and/or the capability to participate.

WE represent the enslaved, war torn peoples of the world.

WE, the real majority, WILL DEMAND JUSTICE !

VERITAS AEQUITAS !

So be it.

pEACe

[2bfree]

What gives the "regulators" the right to regulate us? If I was Gavin I would ignore regulators!

[RodeoX]

What gives the "regulators" the right to regulate us? If I was Gavin I would ignore regulators!

Well, you elected officials who passed laws compelling you. You gave them the right.
Of course, this means we could elect new officials who undo the laws. It is really up to your participation in government.
Gavin was invited and could refuse. That would be a very wrong move in my opinion. There will be regulation. That is 100% certain. What is not certain is if the community will engage with regulators or hide and just hope the regulators do a good job. We need to make our voices heard. And not by preaching to each other, we need to contact our elected officials, regulators, law enforcement, etc.  

[Akesson]

33 floor. Should Gavin decline? Ask Michael Jackson.

[TheButterZone]

What gives the "regulators" the right to regulate us? If I was Gavin I would ignore regulators!

The "regulators" will disregard civil liberties as usual and "regulate" them into oblivion, no matter what anyone innocent (and unable to bribe evil out of being evil) does.

[newflesh]

There will be regulation. That is 100% certain.

Oh really? Nothing is 100% certain, who knows what the future holds

[tvbcof]

What gives the "regulators" the right to regulate us? If I was Gavin I would ignore regulators!

The "regulators" will disregard civil liberties as usual and "regulate" them into oblivion, no matter what anyone innocent (and unable to bribe evil out of being evil) does.

Whether that is true or not, and it cannot be known one way or another that this point, the system engineering of Bitcoin should assume this to be the case.

Bitcoin is no longer in a position where it is at risk of disappearing for lack of interest.  This affords the opportunity to be defensive in system architecture if so chosen.

Indeed, the biggest threat to Bitcoin at this point is probably alternate distributed crypto-currencies.  Bitcoin could lose this struggle if it capitulates and exposes itself willingly to subversion by 'the powers that be' while others make an effort to be robust in this area.  If it does (and it appears likely at this point) I will be cheering it's demise...even while sitting on at least a fraction of my hoard.

[sprot]

As a CIA field asset I doubt he has very much choice in the matter. 

[Hippie Tech]

There will be regulation. That is 100% certain.

Oh really? Nothing is 100% certain, who knows what the future holds

What if one third of us ... fuck fork it ?

[LightRider]

As a CIA field asset I doubt he has very much choice in the matter. 

Being an admitted space alien though, he could call his home planet for help and/or rescue.

[Hippie Tech]

Thanks to all who took the time to have their say.

Some thanks to the trolls that stayed away.

The "Before .." snapshot is complete.

pEACe
HT xD