Economics of greed

[Jungian]

Yes, OP nails it. There is some mystique kind of contradiction going on in the Bitcoin environment. Its technology is based upon something called a P2P-network. Now, take your time and read this Peer to Peer Network once again. Connection is the keyword here, and decentralization.

So what? Doesn't change anything about greed or not. People who benefit from P2P will use it. That is the very definition of greed.
They use something to get MORE out of it. They don't use it because they get LESS out of it.

The strength comes from the connections, just like the Internet.

Still greed.

Does it really require a huge leap for mankind to understand that society is based on a similar underlying structure; we, human beings, form a network - we are connected in many ways.

Yes, that's greed. Wanting something from humans.

The biggest lie ever spread is "Greed is good.", because it denies this fundamental innate connection, it denies compassion.

Doesn't change anything. If what you value is compassion, then you are greedy for compassion.

Frans de Waal studies the behavior of primates and it stands to reason that primates expose "our" true nature; Moral behavior in animals.

Exactly. When there is a profit motive for primates to be compassionate they will be. P2P networks give incentive to be moral and thus people express more "compassion" in them. So, greed here again.

Anyway, this whole decentralized idea of Bitcoin heads toward its own contradiction, because a very limited group of people (ergo, centralized) already have the power (coins) to regulate this new currency. Are these people our new bankers and Feds? Are they any better? Do they posses more of these o so needed properties like, empathy, compassion, care, affection, and so on ...?

If you give them incentive to express these emotions they will.

I went for a piss half an hour back - do you know what motivated me ? Greed  

A couple of years back, local to me, not one, but two men died trying to save a girl that had fallen through the ice (they were unrelated to the girl - one of the men was a fireman and so fully aware of the risk). But do you know what really motivated these men - not altruism or compassion - it was the regard for their own self interest. It was greed  

According to Chomsky our language acquisition is facilitated by our "universal grammar" - but it only flourishes by virtue of the social nature of language and in its practical application. But guess what - we only communicate through our innate greed  

I'm alright Jack keep your hands off my stash - greed.

I know you are trying to be funny, but it is greed - rational self interest - in all cases. Greed is just giving the word self interest a bad name. Like calling someone a slut for going after sex. It's all a shame game , trying to make others look bad.

Yes, these men on the ice were also acting in self interrest. Their "greed" for glory/morals was good, and in a sound money economy the same greed for money is good.

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[erre]

Interesting discussion.
I'll bring my 2 satoshi, a wikipedia citation af max stirner:

Individual self-realization rests on each individual's desire to fulfill their egoism. The difference between an unwilling and a willing egoist, is that the former will be 'possessed' by an empty idea and believe that they are fulfilling a higher cause, but usually being unaware that they are only fulfilling their own desires to be happy or secure, and the latter, in contrast, will be a person that is able to freely choose its actions, fully aware that they are only fulfilling individual desires.

  

Sacred things exist only for the egoist who does not acknowledge himself, the involuntary egoist ... in short, for the egoist who would like not to be an egoist, and abases himself (combats his egoism), but at the same time abases himself only for the sake of "being exalted", and therefore of gratifying his egoism. Because he would like to cease to be an egoist, he looks about in heaven and earth for higher beings to serve and sacrifice himself to; but, however much he shakes and disciplines himself, in the end he does all for his own sake... [on] this account I call him the involuntary egoist.

    ...As you are each instant, you are your own creature in this very 'creature' you do not wish to lose yourself, the creator. You are yourself a higher being than you are, and surpass yourself ... just this, as an involuntary egoist, you fail to recognize; and therefore the 'higher essence' is to you – an alien essence. ... Alienness is a criterion of the "sacred".

    — Ibidem, Cambridge edition, pp. 37–8

[/i]

[wobber]

Interesting discussion.
I'll bring my 2 satoshi, a wikipedia citation af max stirner:

Individual self-realization rests on each individual's desire to fulfill their egoism. The difference between an unwilling and a willing egoist, is that the former will be 'possessed' by an empty idea and believe that they are fulfilling a higher cause, but usually being unaware that they are only fulfilling their own desires to be happy or secure, and the latter, in contrast, will be a person that is able to freely choose its actions, fully aware that they are only fulfilling individual desires.

Interesting indeed.

It goes well with that idea that people do good things, altruistic, for example someone saving a dog stranded on a piece of ice, because one could not bear the pain of not doing anything. So to avoid this pain, he comes to the rescue. Out of egocentricity

[_Miracle]

"Having a few million dollars (2-5), a nice home, garden and all is more than one can want. The issue is, what do you do with the excess? How do you use it?"

No. It seems like you're  saying "all one should" want. Depending on location, lifestyle, children and how close the people in that scenario are to retirement; they may not even be financially secure.
That is nowhere near the aspirations I have for my life.

Do I hope that a person of intelligence, wealth and means decides to put those resources to "a greater good"? Yes, but they are not obligated to and should not be. I do feel obligated, compelled, driven to participate and contribute to causes that I find to be the "greater good" and I also do my best to understand that what I may consider to be "a greater good" is only my opinion and my duty to carry out as I see fit; no one else's . I am not a person of means, I have no formal education nor do I posses a brilliant mind but I have an unusual set of life experiences (as most do) that have educated me and presented me with certain beliefs, knowledge and perspectives.

I don't think that "greed is good" but it has it's place and it is far from the only force here.
I also feel that we are failing while other people are failing. Some brilliant person said "no one is free until we are all free" I believe that to my core.
So those with abundance are free to do with it what they will, and those of us that don't believe that way should be thankful that they are taking care of themselves and continue to reach out beyond ourselves and encourage others to the same.

[erre]

Interesting discussion.
I'll bring my 2 satoshi, a wikipedia citation af max stirner:

Individual self-realization rests on each individual's desire to fulfill their egoism. The difference between an unwilling and a willing egoist, is that the former will be 'possessed' by an empty idea and believe that they are fulfilling a higher cause, but usually being unaware that they are only fulfilling their own desires to be happy or secure, and the latter, in contrast, will be a person that is able to freely choose its actions, fully aware that they are only fulfilling individual desires.

Interesting indeed.

It goes well with that idea that people do good things, altruistic, for example someone saving a dog stranded on a piece of ice, because one could not bear the pain of not doing anything. So to avoid this pain, he comes to the rescue. Out of egocentricity

Yep. And, more than that, means it's all up to your will.
The "pain" you're talking about is really a social thing i think, strongly related with "shame" (not necessarely shame in respect to others) or something like that.

Besides that, my butt hurt a lot too, like OP, because i was not an early adopter, and me too wish in a better world where people who owns a lot of moneypower will use this power to improve the world and not for selfish desires like coke, hookers, a diamond collection and a gold w.c. etc (you can really buy a lot of things with 10000 btc nowdays i suppose - anyway everytime you buy you're decentralizing a little the storage of wealth). One can have the will and the desire to do something good for the world with his money, in the case we have to adorate him like a god because that's how it works, but this is not about the nature of bitcoin but the human nature

[practicaldreamer]

Some brilliant person said "no one is free until we are all free" I believe that to my core.

Yes - someone also said  "What you do unto the least of my brethren, you do also unto me"

Same bloke also said " Its easier for a camel to climb through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

He didn't say anything about the benefits to society of greed - or the individuals regard of their own self interest (as far as I am aware) being some kind of moral prerequisite to entry to the Kingdom of God.

In fact, while we are on the subject - when Jesus Christ refused to sell out to Pilate and so gave himself up to the inevitability of his own death - was he acting with regard to his own self interest ?

  Was Jesus Christ greedy ?

[Xav]

Yes, OP nails it. There is some mystique kind of contradiction going on in the Bitcoin environment. Its technology is based upon something called a P2P-network. Now, take your time and read this Peer to Peer Network once again. Connection is the keyword here, and decentralization.

So what? Doesn't change anything about greed or not. People who benefit from P2P will use it. That is the very definition of greed.
They use something to get MORE out of it. They don't use it because they get LESS out of it.

The strength comes from the connections, just like the Internet.

Still greed.

Does it really require a huge leap for mankind to understand that society is based on a similar underlying structure; we, human beings, form a network - we are connected in many ways.

Yes, that's greed. Wanting something from humans.

The biggest lie ever spread is "Greed is good.", because it denies this fundamental innate connection, it denies compassion.

Doesn't change anything. If what you value is compassion, then you are greedy for compassion.

Frans de Waal studies the behavior of primates and it stands to reason that primates expose "our" true nature; Moral behavior in animals.

Exactly. When there is a profit motive for primates to be compassionate they will be. P2P networks give incentive to be moral and thus people express more "compassion" in them. So, greed here again.

Anyway, this whole decentralized idea of Bitcoin heads toward its own contradiction, because a very limited group of people (ergo, centralized) already have the power (coins) to regulate this new currency. Are these people our new bankers and Feds? Are they any better? Do they posses more of these o so needed properties like, empathy, compassion, care, affection, and so on ...?

If you give them incentive to express these emotions they will.

Apparently sometimes the "greed is good" doctrine preoccupies a brain to such extent that it disables normal communication. Anyway, for people suffering from these kind of handicaps there is Wallstreet, JP Morgan and fiat money. BTW the incentive to express the above mentioned properties for the big owners of BTC would be a boost in the Popsicle Index; we all benefit from that; even you, you naughty greedy cookie-monster. Also, and I've said this before, the success of the Bitcoin-network depends on spreading; if everyone hoards then Bitcoin as a currency fails and the value will implode rapidly. At some moment in time a rival digital currency might take over and create a larger network of sharing and caring people gaining more positive interest and popularity. It's not greed that conquers, albeit connectivity, which happened to be one of the fundamentals of Bitcoin itself.

[qbits]

 Was Jesus Christ greedy ?

Precisely. I would like to get an answer to this one too.

Better yet, is Cap Kirk (from StarTrek) greedy? He's not working for salary (as I've never seen that he is paid for what he does) nor do they show any kind of money in any of the movies. How about Scotty? Why is he showing up for work every day, risking his life repairing the space ship that always seems to break down in the worst possible moment?

In fact StarTrek crew are by evidence communists: they work for government, no money or possession (Federation = government owns starship Enterprise), no private sector or private enterprise (there are no companies), health care is free, so is food ( and drinks ) in starhip caffe. They do not trade except where they perform trading on behalf of Federation = government. There are no courts except for the military tribunals and no lawyers.

I know these are fictional characters but we all dreamed to "go where no man has gone before" when we were kids right? So we approve of their life style and intuitively understand their motivation. But are they doing all that out of greed?

Certainly we (as kids) did not see their actions as a result of greed. I would go further and say that they seem to do it out of curiosity.

One can't just say every human motive stems from greed. That is greed is not synonymous with motive.

[_Miracle]

Some brilliant person said "no one is free until we are all free" I believe that to my core.

Yes - someone also said  "What you do unto the least of my brethren, you do also unto me"

Same bloke also said " Its easier for a camel to climb through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

He didn't say anything about the benefits to society of greed - or the individuals regard of their own self interest (as far as I am aware) being some kind of moral prerequisite to entry to the Kingdom of God.

In fact, while we are on the subject - when Jesus Christ refused to sell out to Pilate and so gave himself up to the inevitability of his own death - was he acting with regard to his own self interest ?

  Was Jesus Christ greedy ?

I was failing to make my opinion clear: to balance it out perhaps I should have included that in some cultures, to have an entire house and garden to oneself might be considered "excessive". ("greedy")
When we start deciding what people should be satisfied with and what they should be doing, altruism inverts on itself and become just as self serving as greed.

Why we gotta bring Jesus into it? I certainly don't want to be responsible for speculating on what Jesus thinks of bitcoin. Let's ask the Dali Lama about it, since he can answer us directly  

[Xav]

Let's ask the Dali Lama about it, since he can answer us directly 

“I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of inner peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion and elimination of ignorance, selfishness and greed.”

[Jungian]

 Was Jesus Christ greedy ?

JC isn't real. Is the tooth fairy greedy? Why not talk about the real world

Same bloke also said " Its easier for a camel to climb through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

This really inpoints the communist viewpoints to it's core. How they want people to be poor, so they have someone to pity and be able to feel good about themselves.
Ever notice what these people think about rich people? Nothing but envy and hate. They want people to be poor and they love poor countries and the leaders who make them poor. Hugo Chavez and the likes of him are heroes to people who want others to be poor.

In fact, while we are on the subject - when Jesus Christ refused to sell out to Pilate and so gave himself up to the inevitability of his own death - was he acting with regard to his own self interest ?

Yeah, it's so hard to face death when you don't really have to die, isn't it?

[Jungian]

Let's ask the Dali Lama about it, since he can answer us directly 

“I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of inner peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion and elimination of ignorance, selfishness and greed.”

What have Dalai Lama brought to the world? These tibetanian popes sit on high horses and do nothing productive but ride their titles and fame.

No wonder collectivists love them.

[Xav]

Let's ask the Dali Lama about it, since he can answer us directly 

“I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of inner peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion and elimination of ignorance, selfishness and greed.”

What have Dalai Lama brought to the world? These tibetanian popes sit on high horses and do nothing productive but ride their titles and fame.

No wonder collectivists love them.

Are all people for you just production units?

[_Miracle]

Let's ask the Dali Lama about it, since he can answer us directly 

“I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of inner peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion and elimination of ignorance, selfishness and greed.”

What have Dalai Lama brought to the world? These tibetanian popes sit on high horses and do nothing productive but ride their titles and fame.

No wonder collectivists love them.

C'mon Jungian, don't let the shadow overtake you.

It was nice to see another fan of the Dalai Lama and I was trying to lighten things up a bit since you can literally ask him his thoughts on his web page, he's reputed to be a tinkerer and fan of technology.
He also has many things to say about attachment and suffering and as a monk owns nothing. Gandhi sort of touches on the subject when he pointed out that there were many wealthy people supporting (funding) his vow of poverty.

"Collectivists" I had to look up the word. The idea of interdependence is talked about in the 7 Habits and struck a cord but the rest of it's definition...not so much.

[Jungian]

Let's ask the Dali Lama about it, since he can answer us directly 

“I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of inner peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion and elimination of ignorance, selfishness and greed.”

What have Dalai Lama brought to the world? These tibetanian popes sit on high horses and do nothing productive but ride their titles and fame.

No wonder collectivists love them.

Are all people for you just production units?

What do you mean - just production units? That's just rhetoric to try and make one of the finest human virtues sound like something boring and horrible.
"Oh, they bring wonderful inventions, trying making the world abundant in food, technology and art whilst fulfilling themselvs - what horrible prodution units"

[Jungian]

Let's ask the Dali Lama about it, since he can answer us directly 

“I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of inner peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion and elimination of ignorance, selfishness and greed.”

What have Dalai Lama brought to the world? These tibetanian popes sit on high horses and do nothing productive but ride their titles and fame.

No wonder collectivists love them.

C'mon Jungian, don't let the shadow overtake you.

It was nice to see another fan of the Dalai Lama and I was trying to lighten things up a bit since you can literally ask him his thoughts on his web page, he's reputed to be a tinkerer and fan of technology.
He also has many things to say about attachment and suffering and as a monk owns nothing. Gandhi sort of touches on the subject when he pointed out that there were many wealthy people supporting (funding) his vow of poverty.

"Collectivists" I had to look up the word. The idea of interdependence is talked about in the 7 Habits and struck a cord but the rest of it's definition...not so much.

He owns nothing - yet flies all over the world and eats and drinks every day, yet not having to worry for a second about creating, protecting or expanding the very wealth that allows him to do this. Welfare program to the extreme.

To me, it's hight unimpressive to come from a lineage of pops with a trac record not that much better than those of their western counterparts who made a living from extracting money from the people whilst paying lipservice to fine ideals. Because talk is cheap, so that is why every enforced authority depend on them.

If i want to hear some eastern spiritualit entertainment I perfer to hear them from someone who is actually funny - like Alan Watts.

[_Miracle]

To each his own.

[Jungian]

To each his own.

Yes, unless you support government and represenatives of the ruling class, such as Dalai Lama who wants to push their policies with laws, then it is "To each, my will".
 

[practicaldreamer]

[
JC isn't real.

Same bloke also said " Its easier for a camel to climb through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

This really inpoints the communist viewpoints to it's core.

So basically, Jesus Christ wasn't real - but if he had been he'd have been a commi loving rat ?  

Well, at least we have established one thing - whatever morality unrestrained capitalism is supposed to be underpinned by, it certainly can't claim to be Christian.

   So what is Gordon Gekko then ? I'm guessing he'll be some sort of a Nietschean Superman - intellectually and physically superior, without fear, enterprising, unflappable etc.

      Amoral - and completely selfish

[Xav]

Let's ask the Dali Lama about it, since he can answer us directly 

“I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of inner peace and contentment, which in turn must be achieved through the cultivation of altruism, of love and compassion and elimination of ignorance, selfishness and greed.”

What have Dalai Lama brought to the world? These tibetanian popes sit on high horses and do nothing productive but ride their titles and fame.

No wonder collectivists love them.

Are all people for you just production units?

What do you mean - just production units? That's just rhetoric to try and make one of the finest human virtues sound like something boring and horrible.
"Oh, they bring wonderful inventions, trying making the world abundant in food, technology and art whilst fulfilling themselvs - what horrible prodution units"

Did I touch a nerve here? The word "just" as in "no more than". Sure, I've reason to believe you, greedy cookie-monster, reduce mankind to "just" production units. It is completely on your own account that you assign the word "just" to "horrible" and "boring". Moreover you confuse the meaning of the word "production" with something beautiful as "creation". On top of that, you seem very afraid of people getting something for free, or in exchange for sharing insightful thoughts and intentions for a change to create a better world. Let me ask you a very simple question. What's the value of your health? Any idea what a physician produce? Now, eat your cookies, and stay fit.