[ANN][LEAF] LEAFCOIN - Android wallet launched

[sakkosekk]

So we are promoting the exchanges to police, judge, jury and correctional institutions now?
Exchanges list coins in good faith, its is the communities, miners and traders that decide on how this will go. Any coin with good community, good development and sound concepts can archive success.

Say i have my money in a bank, the bank director doesn't like me or the way i do business. Does he then have any claim to take my money? As long as the rules are followed exchanges can't do anything.
I personally agree that multipools are frustrating, counterproductive and a cancer on the crypto community but you are barking up the wrong tree sorry!

Lets not pretend that because cryptocurrency has no "laws", that we can also set aside morality too.  As you, and many others would agree, these multipools are having nothing but a negative effect on any pottential coins growth.  Whether they kill it alltogether (which has happened to others) or just stunt it, its a negative effect.

A bank can refuse to accept a customers business, a bar can refuse to serve, everyone has the right to refuse service, even exchanges.

Individual miners or mining pools have zero power what so ever to stop this.  Developers could choose to implement gravity wells/quick difficulty retargetting, but ultimately the process of a huge pool vastly skewing the figures and then dumping in the market is counterproductive to the entire microeconomy of an individual coin.  The fact they play whack a mole with the whole range makes it even harder for any coin to become successful in its own right.  Thats why they all blend into one great big cloud of coins affectionatley termed "shitcoins" by many.

The only block between these multipools and them cashing out their gains, leaving a trail of high difficulty and low values, is the exchanges.   If an exchange took a stand and declared it would take any and all necessary actions to prevent multipools from trading there, many miners would go to it as an exchange of choice becasue they would feel somehow protected against the dumps.

As you say it is in the power of the community rid themselves of these multipools, but there is only so much that a single miner can do.

If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always got.   If you dont do it, you will never know what would have happened if you did do it.   Its fairly simple to post a warning that any deposist from multipools will be held, and returned if confirmed that they came from a multipool.  A simple warning may be enough to disuade them, but unless somebody tries, we will never know.

So exchanges are police then?
If anyone sets artificial boundaries then its not a free market anymore, and once we cross that line....

Don't get me wrong, i think multipools are the scum of the earth, but there are measures coin developers can take. Gravity well.
I'm sure coinmarket would abide if the whole damn community decided that multipools should die, i would gladly put my vote for shutting them down.

I understand where you are coming from, but your examples are a bit off. An exchange saying no to mulitpools is not "police activity". IMO mulitpools are manipulating the free market you speak of. And last; the back director cannot steal your money of course, but if the money are obtained in an way labeled unethical by the director he is free to say no to your money.

Again, I totally get where you are coming from, but using examples like this often backfires

[C3ALL]

So exchanges are police then?
If anyone sets artificial boundaries then its not a free market anymore, and once we cross that line....

Don't get me wrong, i think multipools are the scum of the earth, but there are measures coin developers can take. Gravity well.
I'm sure coinmarket would abide if the whole damn community decided that multipools should die, i would gladly put my vote for shutting them down.

Why not?  Regular stocks and shares are part of a free market economy, but there are still rules.   Trying to implement rules in the world of crypto is a bit like firing a bb gun at a train, but some sort of morality wouldn't go a miss.

At least its worth a try to implemenmt some method of controlling an aspect of the market that has nothing but negative impacts.  Would the world of ALT be better without multipools - probably.  So why dont the people with the immediate power to try something (the exchanges) give it a shot.  Whats the worst that could happen?  The idea fails?  Well, at least we tried...

[wn666]

So we are promoting the exchanges to police, judge, jury and correctional institutions now?
Exchanges list coins in good faith, its is the communities, miners and traders that decide on how this will go. Any coin with good community, good development and sound concepts can archive success.

Say i have my money in a bank, the bank director doesn't like me or the way i do business. Does he then have any claim to take my money? As long as the rules are followed exchanges can't do anything.
I personally agree that multipools are frustrating, counterproductive and a cancer on the crypto community but you are barking up the wrong tree sorry!

Lets not pretend that because cryptocurrency has no "laws", that we can also set aside morality too.  As you, and many others would agree, these multipools are having nothing but a negative effect on any pottential coins growth.  Whether they kill it alltogether (which has happened to others) or just stunt it, its a negative effect.

A bank can refuse to accept a customers business, a bar can refuse to serve, everyone has the right to refuse service, even exchanges.

Individual miners or mining pools have zero power what so ever to stop this.  Developers could choose to implement gravity wells/quick difficulty retargetting, but ultimately the process of a huge pool vastly skewing the figures and then dumping in the market is counterproductive to the entire microeconomy of an individual coin.  The fact they play whack a mole with the whole range makes it even harder for any coin to become successful in its own right.  Thats why they all blend into one great big cloud of coins affectionatley termed "shitcoins" by many.

The only block between these multipools and them cashing out their gains, leaving a trail of high difficulty and low values, is the exchanges.   If an exchange took a stand and declared it would take any and all necessary actions to prevent multipools from trading there, many miners would go to it as an exchange of choice becasue they would feel somehow protected against the dumps.

As you say it is in the power of the community rid themselves of these multipools, but there is only so much that a single miner can do.

If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always got.   If you dont do it, you will never know what would have happened if you did do it.   Its fairly simple to post a warning that any deposist from multipools will be held, and returned if confirmed that they came from a multipool.  A simple warning may be enough to disuade them, but unless somebody tries, we will never know.

So exchanges are police then?
If anyone sets artificial boundaries then its not a free market anymore, and once we cross that line....

Don't get me wrong, i think multipools are the scum of the earth, but there are measures coin developers can take. Gravity well.
I'm sure coinmarket would abide if the whole damn community decided that multipools should die, i would gladly put my vote for shutting them down.

I understand where you are coming from, but your examples are a bit off. An exchange saying no to mulitpools is not "police activity". IMO mulitpools are manipulating the free market you speak of. And last; the back director cannot steal your money of course, but if the money are obtained in an way labeled unethical by the director he is free to say no to your money.

Again, I totally get where you are coming from, but using examples like this often backfires

You are singling out one type of customer to your service, as i said i do not at all like the multipools. But once you hinder supply of something then its not the same market anymore. The multipools are abiding by the rules of the coin itself, they are doing a job and getting payed. Its the coin and its reward structure and rules that are at fault. If everyone collectively withdrew their buy orders, then there would be no demand, supply would go down. This is self adjusting, its the beauty and the beast of a free market.

[C3ALL]

You are singling out one type of customer to your service, as i said i do not at all like the multipools. But once you hinder supply of something then its not the same market anymore. The multipools are abiding by the rules of the coin itself, they are doing a job and getting payed. Its the coin and its reward structure and rules that are at fault. If everyone collectively withdrew their buy orders, then there would be no demand, supply would go down. This is self adjusting, its the beauty and the beast of a free market.

I don't think it wouldn't hinder the supply though, as the coins would still go into the market, just not via a route that trades in a way to destroy it.    The multipools simply jump on a coin that is most profitable, waits until difficulty rises and auto dumps throughout the process.   They are manipulating the market by using the time lag on difficulty changes to artificially skew the market.

Gravity well is now almost a compulsory part of a coin imho to at least try and protect against the multipools taking advanatge of difficulty time lag.

[Alty]

Can the dev add kimoto?

How long would it take and how badly would it disrupt the coins progress?

[wn666]

Evolution is happening right before our eyes. The developers will surely learn that gravity well is a key ingredient in a coin. Arms race, history in the making. Grab your popcorn!

[Dafar]

I will ask once more




24 satoshi..... good buy?

[mcg]

yes i can implement kimoto but i first must know the pro and cons.

and yes, it will have an impact on the foundation if i must do it this weekend.

ps. expected impact: 2 days ( shot in dark )

[sakkosekk]

So we are promoting the exchanges to police, judge, jury and correctional institutions now?
Exchanges list coins in good faith, its is the communities, miners and traders that decide on how this will go. Any coin with good community, good development and sound concepts can archive success.

Say i have my money in a bank, the bank director doesn't like me or the way i do business. Does he then have any claim to take my money? As long as the rules are followed exchanges can't do anything.
I personally agree that multipools are frustrating, counterproductive and a cancer on the crypto community but you are barking up the wrong tree sorry!

Lets not pretend that because cryptocurrency has no "laws", that we can also set aside morality too.  As you, and many others would agree, these multipools are having nothing but a negative effect on any pottential coins growth.  Whether they kill it alltogether (which has happened to others) or just stunt it, its a negative effect.

A bank can refuse to accept a customers business, a bar can refuse to serve, everyone has the right to refuse service, even exchanges.

Individual miners or mining pools have zero power what so ever to stop this.  Developers could choose to implement gravity wells/quick difficulty retargetting, but ultimately the process of a huge pool vastly skewing the figures and then dumping in the market is counterproductive to the entire microeconomy of an individual coin.  The fact they play whack a mole with the whole range makes it even harder for any coin to become successful in its own right.  Thats why they all blend into one great big cloud of coins affectionatley termed "shitcoins" by many.

The only block between these multipools and them cashing out their gains, leaving a trail of high difficulty and low values, is the exchanges.   If an exchange took a stand and declared it would take any and all necessary actions to prevent multipools from trading there, many miners would go to it as an exchange of choice becasue they would feel somehow protected against the dumps.

As you say it is in the power of the community rid themselves of these multipools, but there is only so much that a single miner can do.

If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always got.   If you dont do it, you will never know what would have happened if you did do it.   Its fairly simple to post a warning that any deposist from multipools will be held, and returned if confirmed that they came from a multipool.  A simple warning may be enough to disuade them, but unless somebody tries, we will never know.

So exchanges are police then?
If anyone sets artificial boundaries then its not a free market anymore, and once we cross that line....

Don't get me wrong, i think multipools are the scum of the earth, but there are measures coin developers can take. Gravity well.
I'm sure coinmarket would abide if the whole damn community decided that multipools should die, i would gladly put my vote for shutting them down.

I understand where you are coming from, but your examples are a bit off. An exchange saying no to mulitpools is not "police activity". IMO mulitpools are manipulating the free market you speak of. And last; the back director cannot steal your money of course, but if the money are obtained in an way labeled unethical by the director he is free to say no to your money.

Again, I totally get where you are coming from, but using examples like this often backfires

You are singling out one type of customer to your service, as i said i do not at all like the multipools. But once you hinder supply of something then its not the same market anymore. The multipools are abiding by the rules of the coin itself, they are doing a job and getting payed. Its the coin and its reward structure and rules that are at fault. If everyone collectively withdrew their buy orders, then there would be no demand, supply would go down. This is self adjusting, its the beauty and the beast of a free market.

In theory I agree 100%, but not when it comes to practice. Let's hope Kimoto saves us all

[mmilch]

So we are promoting the exchanges to police, judge, jury and correctional institutions now?
Exchanges list coins in good faith, its is the communities, miners and traders that decide on how this will go. Any coin with good community, good development and sound concepts can archive success.

Say i have my money in a bank, the bank director doesn't like me or the way i do business. Does he then have any claim to take my money? As long as the rules are followed exchanges can't do anything.
I personally agree that multipools are frustrating, counterproductive and a cancer on the crypto community but you are barking up the wrong tree sorry!

Lets not pretend that because cryptocurrency has no "laws", that we can also set aside morality too.  As you, and many others would agree, these multipools are having nothing but a negative effect on any pottential coins growth.  Whether they kill it alltogether (which has happened to others) or just stunt it, its a negative effect.

A bank can refuse to accept a customers business, a bar can refuse to serve, everyone has the right to refuse service, even exchanges.

Individual miners or mining pools have zero power what so ever to stop this.  Developers could choose to implement gravity wells/quick difficulty retargetting, but ultimately the process of a huge pool vastly skewing the figures and then dumping in the market is counterproductive to the entire microeconomy of an individual coin.  The fact they play whack a mole with the whole range makes it even harder for any coin to become successful in its own right.  Thats why they all blend into one great big cloud of coins affectionatley termed "shitcoins" by many.

The only block between these multipools and them cashing out their gains, leaving a trail of high difficulty and low values, is the exchanges.   If an exchange took a stand and declared it would take any and all necessary actions to prevent multipools from trading there, many miners would go to it as an exchange of choice becasue they would feel somehow protected against the dumps.

As you say it is in the power of the community rid themselves of these multipools, but there is only so much that a single miner can do.

If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always got.   If you dont do it, you will never know what would have happened if you did do it.   Its fairly simple to post a warning that any deposist from multipools will be held, and returned if confirmed that they came from a multipool.  A simple warning may be enough to disuade them, but unless somebody tries, we will never know.

So exchanges are police then?
If anyone sets artificial boundaries then its not a free market anymore, and once we cross that line....

Don't get me wrong, i think multipools are the scum of the earth, but there are measures coin developers can take. Gravity well.
I'm sure coinmarket would abide if the whole damn community decided that multipools should die, i would gladly put my vote for shutting them down.

This what we are talking about, is to set up some rules, not the limits. Eeach democratic system has some rules, otherwise it is total anarchy. Someone who brake the rules, should be just punished. Try to manipulate some share on the real stock exchange in democratic country, then you will see, how fast police will come to your house.

[damnation]

well i'm neither for or against multipool's in general as they do serve a purpose.

With the amount of new coins being generated.. sometimes its good to have a system which takes out the weak... seriously.. how many billion $ coin market caps do think can exist before the whole system collapses. The way i see it a coin that survives multipools is a coin that has proven itself.

On the issue of doge.. the multipools actually helped out as they kept difficulty high when hype was at its peak.. incresing value and demand... when they did finally leave.. the stable price vs difficulty stabilised at the 800 range @ around 40 a coin... when the pump started again.. to the 1200 difficulty range.. the multipools were back.. and the price has more or less stabilised once again at a higher hash rate.. and price level.. Doge gets hit by multipools a lot.. hence its difficulty sitting so high.

Confiscating a trader's coins because you "suspect" its a multipool account is a little crazy though.. for the simple reason.. that multipools aren't the only one with boat loads of coins.. cryptoworld is full of investors who made it big on prior investments. 

Taking Kitteh as an example.. If i had 3 btc to invest... and i bought a coin at 1 satoshi... i would be holding about  30 M coins.. now transfer out to my wallet.. and wait... market spikes to 20...then 50... then 75... then 115... in which case i slowly deposit around 5M for every spike... does that mean my account gets marked as a multipool account and i lose my coins?
What if i was a miner with 3 mh/s... mining kitteh when it was at 0.2 difficulty (1 satoshi price) and the millions in my wallet

If an exchange goes this route i can pretty much be sure that it wont ever be a large exchange.. because.. it will end up killing the market  as no medium to large investors or miners would ever be willing to risk making an exchange on that website not even for 0% fees.

What helps a coin to not die.. is its community...the community which sticks with the coin even when price has crashed.. Everyone is in such a rush to get listed on the 3 C's hoping to make a quick buck... that they forget,  getting all three accomplished when the coin only a small foothold in the cryptocurrency market is a quick route to a fast and painful death...
 

[wn666]

So we are promoting the exchanges to police, judge, jury and correctional institutions now?
Exchanges list coins in good faith, its is the communities, miners and traders that decide on how this will go. Any coin with good community, good development and sound concepts can archive success.

Say i have my money in a bank, the bank director doesn't like me or the way i do business. Does he then have any claim to take my money? As long as the rules are followed exchanges can't do anything.
I personally agree that multipools are frustrating, counterproductive and a cancer on the crypto community but you are barking up the wrong tree sorry!

Lets not pretend that because cryptocurrency has no "laws", that we can also set aside morality too.  As you, and many others would agree, these multipools are having nothing but a negative effect on any pottential coins growth.  Whether they kill it alltogether (which has happened to others) or just stunt it, its a negative effect.

A bank can refuse to accept a customers business, a bar can refuse to serve, everyone has the right to refuse service, even exchanges.

Individual miners or mining pools have zero power what so ever to stop this.  Developers could choose to implement gravity wells/quick difficulty retargetting, but ultimately the process of a huge pool vastly skewing the figures and then dumping in the market is counterproductive to the entire microeconomy of an individual coin.  The fact they play whack a mole with the whole range makes it even harder for any coin to become successful in its own right.  Thats why they all blend into one great big cloud of coins affectionatley termed "shitcoins" by many.

The only block between these multipools and them cashing out their gains, leaving a trail of high difficulty and low values, is the exchanges.   If an exchange took a stand and declared it would take any and all necessary actions to prevent multipools from trading there, many miners would go to it as an exchange of choice becasue they would feel somehow protected against the dumps.

As you say it is in the power of the community rid themselves of these multipools, but there is only so much that a single miner can do.

If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always got.   If you dont do it, you will never know what would have happened if you did do it.   Its fairly simple to post a warning that any deposist from multipools will be held, and returned if confirmed that they came from a multipool.  A simple warning may be enough to disuade them, but unless somebody tries, we will never know.

So exchanges are police then?
If anyone sets artificial boundaries then its not a free market anymore, and once we cross that line....

Don't get me wrong, i think multipools are the scum of the earth, but there are measures coin developers can take. Gravity well.
I'm sure coinmarket would abide if the whole damn community decided that multipools should die, i would gladly put my vote for shutting them down.

This what we are talking about, is to set up some rules, not the limits. Eeach democratic system has some rules, otherwise it is total anarchy. Someone who brake the rules, should be just punished. Try to manipulate some share on the real stock exchange in democratic country, then you will see, how fast police will come to your house.

So not only should exchanges be police, but also they should punish? Should exchanges set prices also? Once you open this door....

[cryptoatc]

Wow

230BTC volume on coinmarketio

[coinmarket.io]

Volume data for LEAF/BTC:

Total: 725 BTC
Last 24h: 232 BTC
Last 12h: 188 BTC
Last 4h: 105 BTC

[sakkosekk]

So we are promoting the exchanges to police, judge, jury and correctional institutions now?
Exchanges list coins in good faith, its is the communities, miners and traders that decide on how this will go. Any coin with good community, good development and sound concepts can archive success.

Say i have my money in a bank, the bank director doesn't like me or the way i do business. Does he then have any claim to take my money? As long as the rules are followed exchanges can't do anything.
I personally agree that multipools are frustrating, counterproductive and a cancer on the crypto community but you are barking up the wrong tree sorry!

Lets not pretend that because cryptocurrency has no "laws", that we can also set aside morality too.  As you, and many others would agree, these multipools are having nothing but a negative effect on any pottential coins growth.  Whether they kill it alltogether (which has happened to others) or just stunt it, its a negative effect.

A bank can refuse to accept a customers business, a bar can refuse to serve, everyone has the right to refuse service, even exchanges.

Individual miners or mining pools have zero power what so ever to stop this.  Developers could choose to implement gravity wells/quick difficulty retargetting, but ultimately the process of a huge pool vastly skewing the figures and then dumping in the market is counterproductive to the entire microeconomy of an individual coin.  The fact they play whack a mole with the whole range makes it even harder for any coin to become successful in its own right.  Thats why they all blend into one great big cloud of coins affectionatley termed "shitcoins" by many.

The only block between these multipools and them cashing out their gains, leaving a trail of high difficulty and low values, is the exchanges.   If an exchange took a stand and declared it would take any and all necessary actions to prevent multipools from trading there, many miners would go to it as an exchange of choice becasue they would feel somehow protected against the dumps.

As you say it is in the power of the community rid themselves of these multipools, but there is only so much that a single miner can do.

If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always got.   If you dont do it, you will never know what would have happened if you did do it.   Its fairly simple to post a warning that any deposist from multipools will be held, and returned if confirmed that they came from a multipool.  A simple warning may be enough to disuade them, but unless somebody tries, we will never know.

So exchanges are police then?
If anyone sets artificial boundaries then its not a free market anymore, and once we cross that line....

Don't get me wrong, i think multipools are the scum of the earth, but there are measures coin developers can take. Gravity well.
I'm sure coinmarket would abide if the whole damn community decided that multipools should die, i would gladly put my vote for shutting them down.

This what we are talking about, is to set up some rules, not the limits. Eeach democratic system has some rules, otherwise it is total anarchy. Someone who brake the rules, should be just punished. Try to manipulate some share on the real stock exchange in democratic country, then you will see, how fast police will come to your house.

Multipools are like gangs(group of people collaborating towards a common goal) and society protects you against gangs. But it is like wn666 says, if we go down that road, when will it stop? I myself do not like regulations.

[Equate]

voted for Kimoto  

[Thrash]

Is leaf.hash.so appears to be having problems. I am getting a worker temporarily banned message. Means I have been hashing for nothing I guess. Sent a support ticket 3 hours ago and have heard nothing. At that time at least they were still accepting shares.
Time to move on I guess.

On another note, turning this thread into nothing but a gripe session about multi-pools is not going to help this coin. It is just a big turn off to any new people looking at it. Enough already. The multi-pool is a fact of life, even if we don't like it. Implementing changes in the coin to help is the only way to fight them. Everyone wants to talk about how high the hash power is, but doesn't want the MP's to mine. Really? Sorry that does not make much sense. My guess is a fair amount of the hash is coming from hashcows, so, do away with them and your hash rate drops too. Can't have ytour cake and eat it too.

[Equate]

voted for Kimoto  

nvm you edited.

yup , you quoted me fast before I edited 

[terracide]

I do not know if you can implement a protection soon enough...   Kimoto implementation will probably not be ready before block halving.

[mmilch]

So we are promoting the exchanges to police, judge, jury and correctional institutions now?
Exchanges list coins in good faith, its is the communities, miners and traders that decide on how this will go. Any coin with good community, good development and sound concepts can archive success.

Say i have my money in a bank, the bank director doesn't like me or the way i do business. Does he then have any claim to take my money? As long as the rules are followed exchanges can't do anything.
I personally agree that multipools are frustrating, counterproductive and a cancer on the crypto community but you are barking up the wrong tree sorry!

Lets not pretend that because cryptocurrency has no "laws", that we can also set aside morality too.  As you, and many others would agree, these multipools are having nothing but a negative effect on any pottential coins growth.  Whether they kill it alltogether (which has happened to others) or just stunt it, its a negative effect.

A bank can refuse to accept a customers business, a bar can refuse to serve, everyone has the right to refuse service, even exchanges.

Individual miners or mining pools have zero power what so ever to stop this.  Developers could choose to implement gravity wells/quick difficulty retargetting, but ultimately the process of a huge pool vastly skewing the figures and then dumping in the market is counterproductive to the entire microeconomy of an individual coin.  The fact they play whack a mole with the whole range makes it even harder for any coin to become successful in its own right.  Thats why they all blend into one great big cloud of coins affectionatley termed "shitcoins" by many.

The only block between these multipools and them cashing out their gains, leaving a trail of high difficulty and low values, is the exchanges.   If an exchange took a stand and declared it would take any and all necessary actions to prevent multipools from trading there, many miners would go to it as an exchange of choice becasue they would feel somehow protected against the dumps.

As you say it is in the power of the community rid themselves of these multipools, but there is only so much that a single miner can do.

If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always got.   If you dont do it, you will never know what would have happened if you did do it.   Its fairly simple to post a warning that any deposist from multipools will be held, and returned if confirmed that they came from a multipool.  A simple warning may be enough to disuade them, but unless somebody tries, we will never know.

So exchanges are police then?
If anyone sets artificial boundaries then its not a free market anymore, and once we cross that line....

Don't get me wrong, i think multipools are the scum of the earth, but there are measures coin developers can take. Gravity well.
I'm sure coinmarket would abide if the whole damn community decided that multipools should die, i would gladly put my vote for shutting them down.

This what we are talking about, is to set up some rules, not the limits. Eeach democratic system has some rules, otherwise it is total anarchy. Someone who brake the rules, should be just punished. Try to manipulate some share on the real stock exchange in democratic country, then you will see, how fast police will come to your house.

So not only should exchanges be police, but also they should punish? Should exchanges set prices also? Once you open this door....

Maybe one day will come to this. Anyway I'm sure that people prefer to be protected against the thieves and manipulators