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Author Topic: 22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution  (Read 18756 times)
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February 25, 2014, 01:14:13 AM
 #221

Listen to David Berlinski, he basically knocks evolution down to "nothing more than an anecdote."  If you still believe in the THEORY of evolution after listening to him, you are crazy.

Never heard of that guy, watched him talking here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5r5cRlctLM

Pure nonsense, it's hilarious!  Cheesy

I just noticed the all-caps "THEORY" in the post you quoted and it reminded myself of how it is amusing that these people never seem to understand what the word 'theory' means in a modern scientific context. Then using it as damning "evidence" that because that word which they don't understand has been used to describe evolution, therefor evolution must be incorrect.

From wikipedia just in case the cognition to seek out the definition is also missing:

Quote
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis').[3] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[4]

I've never quite understood how evolution is testable so as to be considered a scientific theory.
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February 25, 2014, 01:27:42 AM
 #222

Listen to David Berlinski, he basically knocks evolution down to "nothing more than an anecdote."  If you still believe in the THEORY of evolution after listening to him, you are crazy.

Never heard of that guy, watched him talking here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5r5cRlctLM

Pure nonsense, it's hilarious!  Cheesy

I just noticed the all-caps "THEORY" in the post you quoted and it reminded myself of how it is amusing that these people never seem to understand what the word 'theory' means in a modern scientific context. Then using it as damning "evidence" that because that word which they don't understand has been used to describe evolution, therefor evolution must be incorrect.

From wikipedia just in case the cognition to seek out the definition is also missing:

Quote
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis').[3] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[4]

I've never quite understood how evolution is testable so as to be considered a scientific theory.

It's testable just like any other thing.

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February 25, 2014, 03:02:01 AM
 #223

Listen to David Berlinski, he basically knocks evolution down to "nothing more than an anecdote."  If you still believe in the THEORY of evolution after listening to him, you are crazy.

Never heard of that guy, watched him talking here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5r5cRlctLM

Pure nonsense, it's hilarious!  Cheesy

I just noticed the all-caps "THEORY" in the post you quoted and it reminded myself of how it is amusing that these people never seem to understand what the word 'theory' means in a modern scientific context. Then using it as damning "evidence" that because that word which they don't understand has been used to describe evolution, therefor evolution must be incorrect.

From wikipedia just in case the cognition to seek out the definition is also missing:

Quote
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis').[3] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[4]

I've never quite understood how evolution is testable so as to be considered a scientific theory.

If you find a fossil that does not fit into the evolutionary timeline, like if you find a dog fossil in rocks 100 million years old, that might shed doubt on the theory of evolution.

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February 25, 2014, 03:13:12 AM
 #224

Listen to David Berlinski, he basically knocks evolution down to "nothing more than an anecdote."  If you still believe in the THEORY of evolution after listening to him, you are crazy.

Never heard of that guy, watched him talking here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5r5cRlctLM

Pure nonsense, it's hilarious!  Cheesy

I just noticed the all-caps "THEORY" in the post you quoted and it reminded myself of how it is amusing that these people never seem to understand what the word 'theory' means in a modern scientific context. Then using it as damning "evidence" that because that word which they don't understand has been used to describe evolution, therefor evolution must be incorrect.

From wikipedia just in case the cognition to seek out the definition is also missing:

Quote
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis').[3] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[4]

I've never quite understood how evolution is testable so as to be considered a scientific theory.

If you find a fossil that does not fit into the evolutionary timeline, like if you find a dog fossil in rocks 100 million years old, that might shed doubt on the theory of evolution.

Or that time travel is possible, let's not jump to conclusions...

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February 25, 2014, 05:12:55 AM
 #225

Quote from: George Carlin, 1932-2008
When it comes to bullshit... big-time, major league bullshit... you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.
No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky... who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place... full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time !
 
...but he loves you

Feels like Stockholm syndrome on steroids...

If we are accountable to God's law of 10 commandments, wouldn't it be loving of God to provide a way to be saved from the price we needed to pay for our crimes?  That seems like a pretty amazing gift.  Basically Jesus paid our life sentence for us and what do most people do, they mock Him, laugh, say it is "bullshit."

It seems far riskier to live life laughing at God then serving Him.  Let's say I am totally wrong.  Let's say that I am asking God for forgiveness for breaking one or two of the 10 commandments only to die and realize that I was "wrong."  Then what?  I won't suffer any different fate than those of you that don't believe.

But what if I am right?  What if Hell is a real place and the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus?  The logical choice is to accept Him.  


Not if you're following the wrong religon. If Islam is true you're probably fucked. Personally, even if there was a god I'm not going to give into bullying and death threats. If god won't take me as I am and how he made me he can go to hell.

I said this in my other post.  Christianity is the one religion where we don't have to change to come to God.  We come just as we are.  It is up to God to make the difference in our lives.  It is not about us being "holy" on our own.  We can't be, even if we wanted to be.  It is admitting we are not perfect then accepting Jesus. 

Islam is about earning salvation.  It is pointless to try to earn it and any religion that encourages Jihad or killing others for a higher "ranking" in the eternal world is problematic.



Isn't it Christianity that's about earning salvation? Pretty sure they use that word a lot in the bible and prayers. Fundamentalist Islam and hate preachers might encourage killing and jihad, but this is not a view shared by most moderate Muslims. The god of the bible encourages killing people and unbelievers, yet most people ignore these parts. You've also stil failed to answer how you know the bible is the true word of god and not the Koran or any other book.

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February 25, 2014, 05:41:18 AM
 #226

Quote from: George Carlin, 1932-2008
When it comes to bullshit... big-time, major league bullshit... you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.
No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky... who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place... full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time !
 
...but he loves you

Feels like Stockholm syndrome on steroids...

If we are accountable to God's law of 10 commandments, wouldn't it be loving of God to provide a way to be saved from the price we needed to pay for our crimes?  That seems like a pretty amazing gift.  Basically Jesus paid our life sentence for us and what do most people do, they mock Him, laugh, say it is "bullshit."

It seems far riskier to live life laughing at God then serving Him.  Let's say I am totally wrong.  Let's say that I am asking God for forgiveness for breaking one or two of the 10 commandments only to die and realize that I was "wrong."  Then what?  I won't suffer any different fate than those of you that don't believe.

But what if I am right?  What if Hell is a real place and the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus?  The logical choice is to accept Him.  


Not if you're following the wrong religon. If Islam is true you're probably fucked. Personally, even if there was a god I'm not going to give into bullying and death threats. If god won't take me as I am and how he made me he can go to hell.

I said this in my other post.  Christianity is the one religion where we don't have to change to come to God.  We come just as we are.  It is up to God to make the difference in our lives.  It is not about us being "holy" on our own.  We can't be, even if we wanted to be.  It is admitting we are not perfect then accepting Jesus. 

Islam is about earning salvation.  It is pointless to try to earn it and any religion that encourages Jihad or killing others for a higher "ranking" in the eternal world is problematic.



Isn't it Christianity that's about earning salvation? Pretty sure they use that word a lot in the bible and prayers. Fundamentalist Islam and hate preachers might encourage killing and jihad, but this is not a view shared by most moderate Muslims. The god of the bible encourages killing people and unbelievers, yet most people ignore these parts. You've also stil failed to answer how you know the bible is the true word of god and not the Koran or any other book.

Of course the word "salvation" is used but we are not able to save ourselves.  Salvation can only come through repentance, basically saying that we need Jesus.

In the Old Testament there were wars.  There are still wars today.  But one of God's commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."  Killing is not something God wants.  Does He allow for wars?  Sometimes war is necessary.  Let's take Hitler for example.  Wasn't that war necessary?  God does not like war.  God does not wish that anyone would kill.  It is part of the "fallen" world we live in though. 

Nothing I say will convince you that the Bible is the truth.  The Bible itself gives reasons for why Jesus is the only way.  He says, "I am the way the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me."  The Bible is very clear that there will be false teachers and in a way the Bible itself becomes the measuring stick in which to gauge what is truth.  But the problem is that if someone does not believe the Bible is true then this becomes irrelevant to them.  If you are sincerely curious about this the book I recommend is "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.  A journalist decided to end the debate once and for all and show how Jesus was a fraud by doing investigative journalism, like he had done for other stories.  In the process He realized that there was too much evidence to deny that Jesus really was who He said He was. 

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February 25, 2014, 11:42:03 AM
 #227

Quote from: George Carlin, 1932-2008
When it comes to bullshit... big-time, major league bullshit... you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.
No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky... who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place... full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time !
 
...but he loves you

Feels like Stockholm syndrome on steroids...

If we are accountable to God's law of 10 commandments, wouldn't it be loving of God to provide a way to be saved from the price we needed to pay for our crimes?  That seems like a pretty amazing gift.  Basically Jesus paid our life sentence for us and what do most people do, they mock Him, laugh, say it is "bullshit."

It seems far riskier to live life laughing at God then serving Him.  Let's say I am totally wrong.  Let's say that I am asking God for forgiveness for breaking one or two of the 10 commandments only to die and realize that I was "wrong."  Then what?  I won't suffer any different fate than those of you that don't believe.

But what if I am right?  What if Hell is a real place and the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus?  The logical choice is to accept Him.  


Not if you're following the wrong religon. If Islam is true you're probably fucked. Personally, even if there was a god I'm not going to give into bullying and death threats. If god won't take me as I am and how he made me he can go to hell.

I said this in my other post.  Christianity is the one religion where we don't have to change to come to God.  We come just as we are.  It is up to God to make the difference in our lives.  It is not about us being "holy" on our own.  We can't be, even if we wanted to be.  It is admitting we are not perfect then accepting Jesus. 

Islam is about earning salvation.  It is pointless to try to earn it and any religion that encourages Jihad or killing others for a higher "ranking" in the eternal world is problematic.



Isn't it Christianity that's about earning salvation? Pretty sure they use that word a lot in the bible and prayers. Fundamentalist Islam and hate preachers might encourage killing and jihad, but this is not a view shared by most moderate Muslims. The god of the bible encourages killing people and unbelievers, yet most people ignore these parts. You've also stil failed to answer how you know the bible is the true word of god and not the Koran or any other book.

Of course the word "salvation" is used but we are not able to save ourselves.  Salvation can only come through repentance, basically saying that we need Jesus.

In the Old Testament there were wars.  There are still wars today.  But one of God's commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."  Killing is not something God wants.  Does He allow for wars?  Sometimes war is necessary.  Let's take Hitler for example.  Wasn't that war necessary?  God does not like war.  God does not wish that anyone would kill.  It is part of the "fallen" world we live in though. 

Nothing I say will convince you that the Bible is the truth.  The Bible itself gives reasons for why Jesus is the only way.  He says, "I am the way the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me."  The Bible is very clear that there will be false teachers and in a way the Bible itself becomes the measuring stick in which to gauge what is truth.  But the problem is that if someone does not believe the Bible is true then this becomes irrelevant to them.  If you are sincerely curious about this the book I recommend is "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.  A journalist decided to end the debate once and for all and show how Jesus was a fraud by doing investigative journalism, like he had done for other stories.  In the process He realized that there was too much evidence to deny that Jesus really was who He said He was. 

The bible says. On what grounds is the bible an authority? Why do you not say the Koran says or this bit of paper says. If the bible is very clear about false teachers, how do you know it or Jesus are not one?  How do you know it's not the work of Satan? I want to know what reasoning or evidence you have for believing the bible. You can't just say "it says". Why do you believe the words in it are those of Jesus and God? Why do you not believe in all the other regions that essentially say the same thing?


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February 25, 2014, 03:15:03 PM
 #228

Quote from: George Carlin, 1932-2008
When it comes to bullshit... big-time, major league bullshit... you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.
No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky... who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place... full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time !
 
...but he loves you

Feels like Stockholm syndrome on steroids...

If we are accountable to God's law of 10 commandments, wouldn't it be loving of God to provide a way to be saved from the price we needed to pay for our crimes?  That seems like a pretty amazing gift.  Basically Jesus paid our life sentence for us and what do most people do, they mock Him, laugh, say it is "bullshit."

It seems far riskier to live life laughing at God then serving Him.  Let's say I am totally wrong.  Let's say that I am asking God for forgiveness for breaking one or two of the 10 commandments only to die and realize that I was "wrong."  Then what?  I won't suffer any different fate than those of you that don't believe.

But what if I am right?  What if Hell is a real place and the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus?  The logical choice is to accept Him.  


Not if you're following the wrong religon. If Islam is true you're probably fucked. Personally, even if there was a god I'm not going to give into bullying and death threats. If god won't take me as I am and how he made me he can go to hell.

I said this in my other post.  Christianity is the one religion where we don't have to change to come to God.  We come just as we are.  It is up to God to make the difference in our lives.  It is not about us being "holy" on our own.  We can't be, even if we wanted to be.  It is admitting we are not perfect then accepting Jesus. 

Islam is about earning salvation.  It is pointless to try to earn it and any religion that encourages Jihad or killing others for a higher "ranking" in the eternal world is problematic.



Isn't it Christianity that's about earning salvation? Pretty sure they use that word a lot in the bible and prayers. Fundamentalist Islam and hate preachers might encourage killing and jihad, but this is not a view shared by most moderate Muslims. The god of the bible encourages killing people and unbelievers, yet most people ignore these parts. You've also stil failed to answer how you know the bible is the true word of god and not the Koran or any other book.

Of course the word "salvation" is used but we are not able to save ourselves.  Salvation can only come through repentance, basically saying that we need Jesus.

In the Old Testament there were wars.  There are still wars today.  But one of God's commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."  Killing is not something God wants.  Does He allow for wars?  Sometimes war is necessary.  Let's take Hitler for example.  Wasn't that war necessary?  God does not like war.  God does not wish that anyone would kill.  It is part of the "fallen" world we live in though. 

Nothing I say will convince you that the Bible is the truth.  The Bible itself gives reasons for why Jesus is the only way.  He says, "I am the way the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me."  The Bible is very clear that there will be false teachers and in a way the Bible itself becomes the measuring stick in which to gauge what is truth.  But the problem is that if someone does not believe the Bible is true then this becomes irrelevant to them.  If you are sincerely curious about this the book I recommend is "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.  A journalist decided to end the debate once and for all and show how Jesus was a fraud by doing investigative journalism, like he had done for other stories.  In the process He realized that there was too much evidence to deny that Jesus really was who He said He was. 

The bible says. On what grounds is the bible an authority? Why do you not say the Koran says or this bit of paper says. If the bible is very clear about false teachers, how do you know it or Jesus are not one?  How do you know it's not the work of Satan? I want to know what reasoning or evidence you have for believing the bible. You can't just say "it says". Why do you believe the words in it are those of Jesus and God? Why do you not believe in all the other regions that essentially say the same thing?



Why do I believe?  Because God has made Himself very real to me.  How do I know my husband?  How do I know my daughter?  How do I know my best friends?  It is very much the same with my relationship with God. One thing God has spoken to my heart on many occasions is the verse "My sheep know my voice."   Also, there are "gifts" God gives and one is called "discernment" which is the ability to discern spirits and right from wrong.  I have been in a room and could literally feel that someone possessed by a demon was there somewhere only to have the person then lock eyes with me in a creepy way a few minutes later, but I felt the dark spirit before I even saw the person.  I am not afraid of the demon because I know "Greater is He that lives in me then He that is in the world."  To know Jesus really opens the door to see the world in a more spiritual way.  And like I keep saying, all religions are NOT the same.  Christianity is about being humble and realizing we cannot earn anything. God is the one that changes us and opens our "eyes" if we let Him to see. We don't do anything on our own strength.  Show me another religion that tells us that? 

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February 25, 2014, 03:55:06 PM
 #229

Listen to David Berlinski, he basically knocks evolution down to "nothing more than an anecdote."  If you still believe in the THEORY of evolution after listening to him, you are crazy.

Never heard of that guy, watched him talking here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5r5cRlctLM

Pure nonsense, it's hilarious!  Cheesy

I just noticed the all-caps "THEORY" in the post you quoted and it reminded myself of how it is amusing that these people never seem to understand what the word 'theory' means in a modern scientific context. Then using it as damning "evidence" that because that word which they don't understand has been used to describe evolution, therefor evolution must be incorrect.

From wikipedia just in case the cognition to seek out the definition is also missing:

Quote
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis').[3] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[4]

I've never quite understood how evolution is testable so as to be considered a scientific theory.

If you find a fossil that does not fit into the evolutionary timeline, like if you find a dog fossil in rocks 100 million years old, that might shed doubt on the theory of evolution.

That qualifies as testing?

That method of "testing" seems more like observation.
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February 25, 2014, 03:58:39 PM
 #230

Quote from: George Carlin, 1932-2008
When it comes to bullshit... big-time, major league bullshit... you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.
No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky... who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place... full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time !
 
...but he loves you

Feels like Stockholm syndrome on steroids...

If we are accountable to God's law of 10 commandments, wouldn't it be loving of God to provide a way to be saved from the price we needed to pay for our crimes?  That seems like a pretty amazing gift.  Basically Jesus paid our life sentence for us and what do most people do, they mock Him, laugh, say it is "bullshit."

It seems far riskier to live life laughing at God then serving Him.  Let's say I am totally wrong.  Let's say that I am asking God for forgiveness for breaking one or two of the 10 commandments only to die and realize that I was "wrong."  Then what?  I won't suffer any different fate than those of you that don't believe.

But what if I am right?  What if Hell is a real place and the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus?  The logical choice is to accept Him.  


Not if you're following the wrong religon. If Islam is true you're probably fucked. Personally, even if there was a god I'm not going to give into bullying and death threats. If god won't take me as I am and how he made me he can go to hell.

I said this in my other post.  Christianity is the one religion where we don't have to change to come to God.  We come just as we are.  It is up to God to make the difference in our lives.  It is not about us being "holy" on our own.  We can't be, even if we wanted to be.  It is admitting we are not perfect then accepting Jesus.  

Islam is about earning salvation.  It is pointless to try to earn it and any religion that encourages Jihad or killing others for a higher "ranking" in the eternal world is problematic.



Isn't it Christianity that's about earning salvation? Pretty sure they use that word a lot in the bible and prayers. Fundamentalist Islam and hate preachers might encourage killing and jihad, but this is not a view shared by most moderate Muslims. The god of the bible encourages killing people and unbelievers, yet most people ignore these parts. You've also stil failed to answer how you know the bible is the true word of god and not the Koran or any other book.

Of course the word "salvation" is used but we are not able to save ourselves.  Salvation can only come through repentance, basically saying that we need Jesus.

In the Old Testament there were wars.  There are still wars today.  But one of God's commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."  Killing is not something God wants.  Does He allow for wars?  Sometimes war is necessary.  Let's take Hitler for example.  Wasn't that war necessary?  God does not like war.  God does not wish that anyone would kill.  It is part of the "fallen" world we live in though.  

Nothing I say will convince you that the Bible is the truth.  The Bible itself gives reasons for why Jesus is the only way.  He says, "I am the way the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me."  The Bible is very clear that there will be false teachers and in a way the Bible itself becomes the measuring stick in which to gauge what is truth.  But the problem is that if someone does not believe the Bible is true then this becomes irrelevant to them.  If you are sincerely curious about this the book I recommend is "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.  A journalist decided to end the debate once and for all and show how Jesus was a fraud by doing investigative journalism, like he had done for other stories.  In the process He realized that there was too much evidence to deny that Jesus really was who He said He was.  

The bible says. On what grounds is the bible an authority? Why do you not say the Koran says or this bit of paper says. If the bible is very clear about false teachers, how do you know it or Jesus are not one?  How do you know it's not the work of Satan? I want to know what reasoning or evidence you have for believing the bible. You can't just say "it says". Why do you believe the words in it are those of Jesus and God? Why do you not believe in all the other regions that essentially say the same thing?



Why do I believe?  Because God has made Himself very real to me.  How do I know my husband?  How do I know my daughter?  How do I know my best friends?  It is very much the same with my relationship with God. One thing God has spoken to my heart on many occasions is the verse "My sheep know my voice."   Also, there are "gifts" God gives and one is called "discernment" which is the ability to discern spirits and right from wrong.  I have been in a room and could literally feel that someone possessed by a demon was there somewhere only to have the person then lock eyes with me in a creepy way a few minutes later, but I felt the dark spirit before I even saw the person.  I am not afraid of the demon because I know "Greater is He that lives in me then He that is in the world."  To know Jesus really opens the door to see the world in a more spiritual way.  And like I keep saying, all religions are NOT the same.  Christianity is about being humble and realizing we cannot earn anything. God is the one that changes us and opens our "eyes" if we let Him to see. We don't do anything on our own strength.  Show me another religion that tells us that?  

You're either nuts or trolling. "How do I know my husband? How do I know my daughter? How do I know my best friends?" But they physically exist. You can't hear or see god. He appears to no one, does nothing and says nothing, so how can anyone be held accountable for being sceptical? And you shouldn't be scared of demons or ghosts because they don't exist, but you should be scared of people. Murderers and rapists are the nutters you need to be worried about. Demons wont rape or murder any one.

You might think that god has made himself real to you, but a lot of Muslims probably say that about Allah and Mohammed (peace be upon him). Has god told you the bible is legit? Why can't you believe (or not believe) in god and just live a good honest life without the bible? Surely that is good enough for god?

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February 25, 2014, 04:12:39 PM
 #231

Quote from: George Carlin, 1932-2008
When it comes to bullshit... big-time, major league bullshit... you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.
No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky... who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place... full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time !
 
...but he loves you

Feels like Stockholm syndrome on steroids...

If we are accountable to God's law of 10 commandments, wouldn't it be loving of God to provide a way to be saved from the price we needed to pay for our crimes?  That seems like a pretty amazing gift.  Basically Jesus paid our life sentence for us and what do most people do, they mock Him, laugh, say it is "bullshit."

It seems far riskier to live life laughing at God then serving Him.  Let's say I am totally wrong.  Let's say that I am asking God for forgiveness for breaking one or two of the 10 commandments only to die and realize that I was "wrong."  Then what?  I won't suffer any different fate than those of you that don't believe.

But what if I am right?  What if Hell is a real place and the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus?  The logical choice is to accept Him.  


Not if you're following the wrong religon. If Islam is true you're probably fucked. Personally, even if there was a god I'm not going to give into bullying and death threats. If god won't take me as I am and how he made me he can go to hell.

I said this in my other post.  Christianity is the one religion where we don't have to change to come to God.  We come just as we are.  It is up to God to make the difference in our lives.  It is not about us being "holy" on our own.  We can't be, even if we wanted to be.  It is admitting we are not perfect then accepting Jesus.  

Islam is about earning salvation.  It is pointless to try to earn it and any religion that encourages Jihad or killing others for a higher "ranking" in the eternal world is problematic.



Isn't it Christianity that's about earning salvation? Pretty sure they use that word a lot in the bible and prayers. Fundamentalist Islam and hate preachers might encourage killing and jihad, but this is not a view shared by most moderate Muslims. The god of the bible encourages killing people and unbelievers, yet most people ignore these parts. You've also stil failed to answer how you know the bible is the true word of god and not the Koran or any other book.

Of course the word "salvation" is used but we are not able to save ourselves.  Salvation can only come through repentance, basically saying that we need Jesus.

In the Old Testament there were wars.  There are still wars today.  But one of God's commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."  Killing is not something God wants.  Does He allow for wars?  Sometimes war is necessary.  Let's take Hitler for example.  Wasn't that war necessary?  God does not like war.  God does not wish that anyone would kill.  It is part of the "fallen" world we live in though.  

Nothing I say will convince you that the Bible is the truth.  The Bible itself gives reasons for why Jesus is the only way.  He says, "I am the way the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me."  The Bible is very clear that there will be false teachers and in a way the Bible itself becomes the measuring stick in which to gauge what is truth.  But the problem is that if someone does not believe the Bible is true then this becomes irrelevant to them.  If you are sincerely curious about this the book I recommend is "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.  A journalist decided to end the debate once and for all and show how Jesus was a fraud by doing investigative journalism, like he had done for other stories.  In the process He realized that there was too much evidence to deny that Jesus really was who He said He was.  

The bible says. On what grounds is the bible an authority? Why do you not say the Koran says or this bit of paper says. If the bible is very clear about false teachers, how do you know it or Jesus are not one?  How do you know it's not the work of Satan? I want to know what reasoning or evidence you have for believing the bible. You can't just say "it says". Why do you believe the words in it are those of Jesus and God? Why do you not believe in all the other regions that essentially say the same thing?



Why do I believe?  Because God has made Himself very real to me.  How do I know my husband?  How do I know my daughter?  How do I know my best friends?  It is very much the same with my relationship with God. One thing God has spoken to my heart on many occasions is the verse "My sheep know my voice."   Also, there are "gifts" God gives and one is called "discernment" which is the ability to discern spirits and right from wrong.  I have been in a room and could literally feel that someone possessed by a demon was there somewhere only to have the person then lock eyes with me in a creepy way a few minutes later, but I felt the dark spirit before I even saw the person.  I am not afraid of the demon because I know "Greater is He that lives in me then He that is in the world."  To know Jesus really opens the door to see the world in a more spiritual way.  And like I keep saying, all religions are NOT the same.  Christianity is about being humble and realizing we cannot earn anything. God is the one that changes us and opens our "eyes" if we let Him to see. We don't do anything on our own strength.  Show me another religion that tells us that?  

You're either nuts or trolling. "How do I know my husband? How do I know my daughter? How do I know my best friends?" But they physically exist. You can't hear or see god. He appears to no one, does nothing and says nothing, so how can anyone be held accountable for being sceptical? And you shouldn't be scared of demons or ghosts because they don't exist, but you should be scared of people. Murderers and rapists are the nutters you need to be worried about. Demons wont rape or murder any one.

You might think that god has made himself real to you, but a lot of Muslims probably say that about Allah and Mohammed (peace be upon him). Has god told you the bible is legit? Why can't you believe (or not believe) in god and just live a good honest life without the bible? Surely that is good enough for god?

You say demons won't rape or murder? Where do you think a person's desire to rape and murder comes from?  

Even if I lived what appeared to be a perfect life it is not enough to earn a way to heaven in doing so.  All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God is what the Bible says.   Our "righteousness is as filthy rags" is another verse.  It is like a white sheep that looks really white on a lawn of green grass but on a fresh layer of snow this same sheep would look dirty.  That is the way we are before God.   And where is the line?  Where is the "I am good enough to go to heaven" line at?  Humans seem to arbitrarily decide they are good enough just by comparing themselves to other people.  It is almost like they plan on dying and going to heaven and then telling God, "I was better than the guy that murdered someone" or "I never raped anyone" or so on. Then they expect God to say, "Ah yes.  I grade on a curve and  you are in the middle so you are OK."  But that is not in the Bible anywhere.  In fact God tried to make it very clear that we can't measure up to the standard and that is why we need a sacrifice for our sinful nature. Jesus came to be that for us, out of His love for us.  

And as for hearing God,  have you tried?  It requires coming to Him in sincerity and taking time to pray and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.  That is a prayer He always answers when it is prayed with a humble and contrite heart.

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February 25, 2014, 04:17:22 PM
 #232


I just noticed the all-caps "THEORY" in the post you quoted and it reminded myself of how it is amusing that these people never seem to understand what the word 'theory' means in a modern scientific context. Then using it as damning "evidence" that because that word which they don't understand has been used to describe evolution, therefor evolution must be incorrect.

From wikipedia just in case the cognition to seek out the definition is also missing:

Quote
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis').[3] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[4]

I've never quite understood how evolution is testable so as to be considered a scientific theory.

If you find a fossil that does not fit into the evolutionary timeline, like if you find a dog fossil in rocks 100 million years old, that might shed doubt on the theory of evolution.

That qualifies as testing?

That method of "testing" seems more like observation.

Yes, testing hypothesis and theories is done by making observations. How else would you test a theory?

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February 25, 2014, 04:47:25 PM
 #233

If you want to test a theory you have to make a prediction first.
Then you try to find out how accurate this prediction is and adjust your theory.

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February 25, 2014, 05:19:26 PM
 #234

Quote from: George Carlin, 1932-2008
When it comes to bullshit... big-time, major league bullshit... you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.
No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky... who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place... full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time !
 
...but he loves you

Feels like Stockholm syndrome on steroids...

If we are accountable to God's law of 10 commandments, wouldn't it be loving of God to provide a way to be saved from the price we needed to pay for our crimes?  That seems like a pretty amazing gift.  Basically Jesus paid our life sentence for us and what do most people do, they mock Him, laugh, say it is "bullshit."

It seems far riskier to live life laughing at God then serving Him.  Let's say I am totally wrong.  Let's say that I am asking God for forgiveness for breaking one or two of the 10 commandments only to die and realize that I was "wrong."  Then what?  I won't suffer any different fate than those of you that don't believe.

But what if I am right?  What if Hell is a real place and the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus?  The logical choice is to accept Him.  


Not if you're following the wrong religon. If Islam is true you're probably fucked. Personally, even if there was a god I'm not going to give into bullying and death threats. If god won't take me as I am and how he made me he can go to hell.

I said this in my other post.  Christianity is the one religion where we don't have to change to come to God.  We come just as we are.  It is up to God to make the difference in our lives.  It is not about us being "holy" on our own.  We can't be, even if we wanted to be.  It is admitting we are not perfect then accepting Jesus.  

Islam is about earning salvation.  It is pointless to try to earn it and any religion that encourages Jihad or killing others for a higher "ranking" in the eternal world is problematic.



Isn't it Christianity that's about earning salvation? Pretty sure they use that word a lot in the bible and prayers. Fundamentalist Islam and hate preachers might encourage killing and jihad, but this is not a view shared by most moderate Muslims. The god of the bible encourages killing people and unbelievers, yet most people ignore these parts. You've also stil failed to answer how you know the bible is the true word of god and not the Koran or any other book.

Of course the word "salvation" is used but we are not able to save ourselves.  Salvation can only come through repentance, basically saying that we need Jesus.

In the Old Testament there were wars.  There are still wars today.  But one of God's commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."  Killing is not something God wants.  Does He allow for wars?  Sometimes war is necessary.  Let's take Hitler for example.  Wasn't that war necessary?  God does not like war.  God does not wish that anyone would kill.  It is part of the "fallen" world we live in though.  

Nothing I say will convince you that the Bible is the truth.  The Bible itself gives reasons for why Jesus is the only way.  He says, "I am the way the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me."  The Bible is very clear that there will be false teachers and in a way the Bible itself becomes the measuring stick in which to gauge what is truth.  But the problem is that if someone does not believe the Bible is true then this becomes irrelevant to them.  If you are sincerely curious about this the book I recommend is "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel.  A journalist decided to end the debate once and for all and show how Jesus was a fraud by doing investigative journalism, like he had done for other stories.  In the process He realized that there was too much evidence to deny that Jesus really was who He said He was.  

The bible says. On what grounds is the bible an authority? Why do you not say the Koran says or this bit of paper says. If the bible is very clear about false teachers, how do you know it or Jesus are not one?  How do you know it's not the work of Satan? I want to know what reasoning or evidence you have for believing the bible. You can't just say "it says". Why do you believe the words in it are those of Jesus and God? Why do you not believe in all the other regions that essentially say the same thing?



Why do I believe?  Because God has made Himself very real to me.  How do I know my husband?  How do I know my daughter?  How do I know my best friends?  It is very much the same with my relationship with God. One thing God has spoken to my heart on many occasions is the verse "My sheep know my voice."   Also, there are "gifts" God gives and one is called "discernment" which is the ability to discern spirits and right from wrong.  I have been in a room and could literally feel that someone possessed by a demon was there somewhere only to have the person then lock eyes with me in a creepy way a few minutes later, but I felt the dark spirit before I even saw the person.  I am not afraid of the demon because I know "Greater is He that lives in me then He that is in the world."  To know Jesus really opens the door to see the world in a more spiritual way.  And like I keep saying, all religions are NOT the same.  Christianity is about being humble and realizing we cannot earn anything. God is the one that changes us and opens our "eyes" if we let Him to see. We don't do anything on our own strength.  Show me another religion that tells us that?  

You're either nuts or trolling. "How do I know my husband? How do I know my daughter? How do I know my best friends?" But they physically exist. You can't hear or see god. He appears to no one, does nothing and says nothing, so how can anyone be held accountable for being sceptical? And you shouldn't be scared of demons or ghosts because they don't exist, but you should be scared of people. Murderers and rapists are the nutters you need to be worried about. Demons wont rape or murder any one.

You might think that god has made himself real to you, but a lot of Muslims probably say that about Allah and Mohammed (peace be upon him). Has god told you the bible is legit? Why can't you believe (or not believe) in god and just live a good honest life without the bible? Surely that is good enough for god?

You say demons won't rape or murder? Where do you think a person's desire to rape and murder comes from?  

Even if I lived what appeared to be a perfect life it is not enough to earn a way to heaven in doing so.  All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God is what the Bible says.   Our "righteousness is as filthy rags" is another verse.  It is like a white sheep that looks really white on a lawn of green grass but on a fresh layer of snow this same sheep would look dirty.  That is the way we are before God.   And where is the line?  Where is the "I am good enough to go to heaven" line at?  Humans seem to arbitrarily decide they are good enough just by comparing themselves to other people.  It is almost like they plan on dying and going to heaven and then telling God, "I was better than the guy that murdered someone" or "I never raped anyone" or so on. Then they expect God to say, "Ah yes.  I grade on a curve and  you are in the middle so you are OK."  But that is not in the Bible anywhere.  In fact God tried to make it very clear that we can't measure up to the standard and that is why we need a sacrifice for our sinful nature. Jesus came to be that for us, out of His love for us.  

And as for hearing God,  have you tried?  It requires coming to Him in sincerity and taking time to pray and asking Him to reveal Himself to you.  That is a prayer He always answers when it is prayed with a humble and contrite heart.

Rape and murder come from people being fucked up, not demons. I also don't understand why god made people that way then complains when they do stuff he designed them to do.

You keep saying "the Bible says", but never answer me what the bible has to do with god. You're just completely brainwashed by it being "The Truth", but have no reason, logic or explanation why it is so.

And I prayed a lot as a kid. Never heard anything back or felt anything other than silence. I'm kinda glad though, as If I did I probably would've been petrified, or batshit crazy.

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February 25, 2014, 08:20:40 PM
 #235


I just noticed the all-caps "THEORY" in the post you quoted and it reminded myself of how it is amusing that these people never seem to understand what the word 'theory' means in a modern scientific context. Then using it as damning "evidence" that because that word which they don't understand has been used to describe evolution, therefor evolution must be incorrect.

From wikipedia just in case the cognition to seek out the definition is also missing:

Quote
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis').[3] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[4]

I've never quite understood how evolution is testable so as to be considered a scientific theory.

If you find a fossil that does not fit into the evolutionary timeline, like if you find a dog fossil in rocks 100 million years old, that might shed doubt on the theory of evolution.

That qualifies as testing?

That method of "testing" seems more like observation.

Yes, testing hypothesis and theories is done by making observations. How else would you test a theory?

Okay, but at what level of scientific rigor?  We observe constantly, but those observations don't necessarily lend themselves to the development of strong, scientific theories.  This is especially true given that theories (which are ultimately mathematical constructs) often face the problem of "undecidabity," or the inability to determine whether one plausible interpretation of a set of data is more true than some other plausible interpretation.  As far as I'm aware, this just sounds like 'naturalistic observation' which has never been synonymous with 'experiment.'

Edit:  A theory can be complete, incomplete, right, or dead wrong.  I think we can agree that we're both interested in 'good' theories which are testable, replicable, supported by multiple experiments and data sets, etc.  Although I think modern evolutionary theory is supported by a large data set, I'm still having difficulty understanding how it is testable and replicable.

Edit 2: I've posited many times on this forum that, given the available evidence, there are alternative theories that are at least equally plausible (e.g. The evidence supports a theory that evolution in conscious states lead to evolved physical states rather than vice versa).  How would you propose we test the theory of evolution against these other plausible theories?
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February 25, 2014, 09:11:30 PM
 #236


I just noticed the all-caps "THEORY" in the post you quoted and it reminded myself of how it is amusing that these people never seem to understand what the word 'theory' means in a modern scientific context. Then using it as damning "evidence" that because that word which they don't understand has been used to describe evolution, therefor evolution must be incorrect.

From wikipedia just in case the cognition to seek out the definition is also missing:

Quote
In modern science, the term "theory" refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ("verify") or empirically contradict ("falsify") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[2] in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis').[3] Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[4]

I've never quite understood how evolution is testable so as to be considered a scientific theory.

If you find a fossil that does not fit into the evolutionary timeline, like if you find a dog fossil in rocks 100 million years old, that might shed doubt on the theory of evolution.

That qualifies as testing?

That method of "testing" seems more like observation.

Yes, testing hypothesis and theories is done by making observations. How else would you test a theory?

Okay, but at what level of scientific rigor?  We observe constantly, but those observations don't necessarily lend themselves to the development of strong, scientific theories.  This is especially true given that theories (which are ultimately mathematical constructs) often face the problem of "undecidabity," or the inability to determine whether one plausible interpretation of a set of data is more true than some other plausible interpretation.  As far as I'm aware, this just sounds like 'naturalistic observation' which has never been synonymous with 'experiment.'

Edit:  A theory can be complete, incomplete, right, or dead wrong.  I think we can agree that we're both interested in 'good' theories which are testable, replicable, supported by multiple experiments and data sets, etc.  Although I think modern evolutionary theory is supported by a large data set, I'm still having difficulty understanding how it is testable and replicable.

Edit 2: I've posited many times on this forum that, given the available evidence, there are alternative theories that are at least equally plausible (e.g. The evidence supports a theory that evolution in conscious states lead to evolved physical states rather than vice versa).  How would you propose we test the theory of evolution against these other plausible theories?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment, which I mentioned earlier, is an example of a way to experiment with evolution.

Every time a new fossil is described, that adds to the data set. If a fossil is found which does not fit the evolutionary theory, then the theory must be updated to account for it.

RE Edit 2: I am not sure I understand what the heck you are talking about? What do you mean conscious states vs. physical states?

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February 26, 2014, 03:39:12 PM
 #237


There is more to religion than what is written in a book. True religion is about what you do, not what you say. A true Christian is somebody who loves all people, not somebody who says "I am a Christian".

I agree that true Christianity is all about love.  That pretty much sums up the main point Jesus made when he said the greatest commandment was "to love your neighbor as yourself."  So with that perspective, this debate is not the most important thing. But it does have an effect on the fact that many people discredit the Bible now entirely.

Also, you can call it crazy that we take the Bible literally, and many other Christians think we are as well.  But the problem with just picking and choosing which parts of the Bible we agree with or don't agree with is that we are undermining the Bible.  We are in essence saying that it could all be "fairy tales."  Which parts are then made up?  Do we just pick what makes sense based on what scientists are speculating is true?  If we don't like some of God's laws do we just ignore them?  Where is that line?  And in essence, do we trust God or science?  That is what it comes down to for me.  If God is a God of miracles, which I believe He is, then He is able to do anything outside of the "rules" of science anyways.  

Ahem, you have it wrong. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to "love God with all your soul", loving others comes in second.

If you believe there is a god, then why not just ask him which parts of the Bible are supposed to be taken literally?

True.  In loving others we are loving God so they very much go together I believe so lving God with all our soul should then cause us to love our neighbors as our self.

I used to believe that evolution was a non-issue but over time have begun to realize that the Bible should be taken as literally as possible.  Granted, not with a legalistic mindset (It can often go hand in hand it seems and I understand that)  But to fear God for me is to respect Him and His word and to live it out as much as possible in every area of my life.

This is a key part. You only love or believe in him out of fear. It's exactly like an abusive relationship. If god really loves us all I don't think he'd be bothered when people use their god-given intelligence to cast doubt on his existence. Especially when the only evidence for him is in a book. I'm also not sure how we're meant to know which book is true or not. What if the bible is the work of the devil and the Koran (or something else) is the one true book?



The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.  It is foolish NOT to fear God.

Shouldn't we fear and respect the one that has the power to send us to hell?

The Koran is not a book of Love. Sure there are some "truths" in all religions, or people would not follow them.  Like I said in other posts, the one thing that differentiates Christianity from the rest is that Christianity is not about what we can do to earn our way to "heaven" or whatever heightened spiritual place the religion teaches.  Christianity is all about what God, out of His great love for us, has done.  We have the choice to accept that or reject that.  Then out of fear and reverence we then follow Him because of His love.  It is like a healthy father/child relationship.  One where the child knows the Father's place and listens to Him and does what He asks, even when it does not always make sense because we can trust He really does know what is best for us.

He only seems to have love for those who grovel out of fear to him. There's no choice or love there. It's love me or else you'll pay. It's 100% an abusive relationship. You also didn't answer how you know the bible is the correct book. How do you know you've not been duped by Satan into believing the wrong religion? There's also lots of hateful things in the bible.

To truly grasp that God, out of love for us, would send His only son to die for our sins, is what changes the perception of a vengeful God into a merciful God.  That said, He still is to be respected, just as we would respect our Father figure (or should respect our fathers.  Many kids do not seem to anymore unfortunately.)

The Bible is also a historical book that shows man's evil choices and even God's vengeance on those that have made their choice against Him.  Usually God's hand is moved out of compassion on those who are trying to serve Him and are being abused.  I know that I have experienced this in my life first hand.  A strange and sudden death occurred for a guy that had abused me and other kids.  It was several years the abuse occurred for me but perhaps God said "enough" and then allowed His sudden death?  I will never know for sure. God is patient but there does come a time when he removes His hand and allows people to suffer the consequences of their choices.   That does not change who He is though.  He is faithful, just, forgiving and kind and compassionate to those that truly seek Him.

Are you serious? He sent down his only son to be crucified? How exactly did him dying save anyone? How did he die for my sins? Why was it even necessary? It's bizarre and completely perverse to think a loving god would do this. And how is Jesus his only son? Aren’t we all his children. I also wouldn't respect my father if he had me crucified and threatened that I'd burn forever if I didn't love him. That's pure psychological abuse and murderous sadomasochism.

And if god gave a shit about you or anyone else he wouldn't let abuse happen in the first place.



How did Jesus save anyone?
Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden.  They were cast from the garden.  But God promised He would send them salvation through a "child" which was Jesus. Then God established a relationship with the Israelites (now the Jews) in which he gave them the 10 commandments.  These were God's laws that we are all accountable for.  There needed to be a sacrifice for sins and it was done in the form of a lamb.  (I am not sure why God chose this for the payment of sins but that is what God did.)Jesus became the ultimate atonement for our sins.  He paid the price and all we have to do is accept His payment for our sins or we can just deny that we have any sin or deny that God is real.  We have that choice but we are still accountable to the 10 Commandments.  I personally do not want to die and stand before God without having my sins be atoned for.  That won't end well.  I am forever grateful for what Jesus has done for me.

So god made up a rule that Eve couldn't eat a stupid apple, which she did. (if he created women, he should know how they are Tongue)
So than he made up a punishment for us, we would rot in hell for eternity because of that one stupid apple. After a while he made a child, and than killed it and said, you know what, because I killed my own son which was fun enough. You can go all free, but you know, those 10 laws I made up a while ago, you still need to follow those because else I will still punish you till eternity. And you got to worship me and be really thankful to my son, because if I didn't get him killed. I would make your lives even worse.

Yeah, I understand you fear that god, he has some real issues.

And why does your god gives forgiveness for everything unless you don't believe in him, I was baptized and did those 2 ceremonial things when I was a child (no clue how they're called in English). Mostly because it's tradition, my wife and I broke the tradition by not marrying for the church. We are both atheist, and that would condemn us to an eternity in hell, we can't get forgiveness for that. Even though we would never hurt anyone, we don't kill, steal or abuse anyone. Still we go to hell and the priest that abused little children can go chill on a cloud in heaven. Doesn't really makes sense, does it?

And the freaky part is, you live in fear of something that doesn't exist, their is no proof of a god and nothing that points in a direction that there is a god.
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February 26, 2014, 03:52:12 PM
 #238

Quote from: George Carlin, 1932-2008
When it comes to bullshit... big-time, major league bullshit... you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion.
No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told.
Think about it, religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky... who watches everything you do, every minute of every day.
And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do.
And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place... full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time !
 
...but he loves you

Feels like Stockholm syndrome on steroids...

If we are accountable to God's law of 10 commandments, wouldn't it be loving of God to provide a way to be saved from the price we needed to pay for our crimes?  That seems like a pretty amazing gift.  Basically Jesus paid our life sentence for us and what do most people do, they mock Him, laugh, say it is "bullshit."

It seems far riskier to live life laughing at God then serving Him.  Let's say I am totally wrong.  Let's say that I am asking God for forgiveness for breaking one or two of the 10 commandments only to die and realize that I was "wrong."  Then what?  I won't suffer any different fate than those of you that don't believe.

But what if I am right?  What if Hell is a real place and the only way to heaven is through accepting Jesus?  The logical choice is to accept Him.  

Because the time you spend reading the bible over and over, sit in church and praying. You could actually do and learn useful things and live your 1 life like you want it to be. The chance that you're right is actually non-existent.
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February 26, 2014, 04:24:04 PM
 #239

To me best response to a question, Ok then explain to me how did God came to be? A: He is the one and only, he has always been there from the beginning .. ( or something like that )...

But yes, i don't mind if people are religious, not at all, it just makes the world one funny little "flat" place to live. Even more so that adults are willing to believe in a talking snake, talking burning bush, woman created from a rib, that they love God who is willing to kill because of a revenge, God who commits mass genocide.... but yet they ask their children " aren't you a bit old to believe in monsters ".

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February 26, 2014, 05:00:42 PM
 #240


There is more to religion than what is written in a book. True religion is about what you do, not what you say. A true Christian is somebody who loves all people, not somebody who says "I am a Christian".

I agree that true Christianity is all about love.  That pretty much sums up the main point Jesus made when he said the greatest commandment was "to love your neighbor as yourself."  So with that perspective, this debate is not the most important thing. But it does have an effect on the fact that many people discredit the Bible now entirely.

Also, you can call it crazy that we take the Bible literally, and many other Christians think we are as well.  But the problem with just picking and choosing which parts of the Bible we agree with or don't agree with is that we are undermining the Bible.  We are in essence saying that it could all be "fairy tales."  Which parts are then made up?  Do we just pick what makes sense based on what scientists are speculating is true?  If we don't like some of God's laws do we just ignore them?  Where is that line?  And in essence, do we trust God or science?  That is what it comes down to for me.  If God is a God of miracles, which I believe He is, then He is able to do anything outside of the "rules" of science anyways.  

Ahem, you have it wrong. Jesus said the greatest commandment was to "love God with all your soul", loving others comes in second.

If you believe there is a god, then why not just ask him which parts of the Bible are supposed to be taken literally?

True.  In loving others we are loving God so they very much go together I believe so lving God with all our soul should then cause us to love our neighbors as our self.

I used to believe that evolution was a non-issue but over time have begun to realize that the Bible should be taken as literally as possible.  Granted, not with a legalistic mindset (It can often go hand in hand it seems and I understand that)  But to fear God for me is to respect Him and His word and to live it out as much as possible in every area of my life.

This is a key part. You only love or believe in him out of fear. It's exactly like an abusive relationship. If god really loves us all I don't think he'd be bothered when people use their god-given intelligence to cast doubt on his existence. Especially when the only evidence for him is in a book. I'm also not sure how we're meant to know which book is true or not. What if the bible is the work of the devil and the Koran (or something else) is the one true book?



The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.  It is foolish NOT to fear God.

Shouldn't we fear and respect the one that has the power to send us to hell?

The Koran is not a book of Love. Sure there are some "truths" in all religions, or people would not follow them.  Like I said in other posts, the one thing that differentiates Christianity from the rest is that Christianity is not about what we can do to earn our way to "heaven" or whatever heightened spiritual place the religion teaches.  Christianity is all about what God, out of His great love for us, has done.  We have the choice to accept that or reject that.  Then out of fear and reverence we then follow Him because of His love.  It is like a healthy father/child relationship.  One where the child knows the Father's place and listens to Him and does what He asks, even when it does not always make sense because we can trust He really does know what is best for us.

He only seems to have love for those who grovel out of fear to him. There's no choice or love there. It's love me or else you'll pay. It's 100% an abusive relationship. You also didn't answer how you know the bible is the correct book. How do you know you've not been duped by Satan into believing the wrong religion? There's also lots of hateful things in the bible.

To truly grasp that God, out of love for us, would send His only son to die for our sins, is what changes the perception of a vengeful God into a merciful God.  That said, He still is to be respected, just as we would respect our Father figure (or should respect our fathers.  Many kids do not seem to anymore unfortunately.)

The Bible is also a historical book that shows man's evil choices and even God's vengeance on those that have made their choice against Him.  Usually God's hand is moved out of compassion on those who are trying to serve Him and are being abused.  I know that I have experienced this in my life first hand.  A strange and sudden death occurred for a guy that had abused me and other kids.  It was several years the abuse occurred for me but perhaps God said "enough" and then allowed His sudden death?  I will never know for sure. God is patient but there does come a time when he removes His hand and allows people to suffer the consequences of their choices.   That does not change who He is though.  He is faithful, just, forgiving and kind and compassionate to those that truly seek Him.

Are you serious? He sent down his only son to be crucified? How exactly did him dying save anyone? How did he die for my sins? Why was it even necessary? It's bizarre and completely perverse to think a loving god would do this. And how is Jesus his only son? Aren’t we all his children. I also wouldn't respect my father if he had me crucified and threatened that I'd burn forever if I didn't love him. That's pure psychological abuse and murderous sadomasochism.

And if god gave a shit about you or anyone else he wouldn't let abuse happen in the first place.



How did Jesus save anyone?
Adam and Eve sinned when they disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden.  They were cast from the garden.  But God promised He would send them salvation through a "child" which was Jesus. Then God established a relationship with the Israelites (now the Jews) in which he gave them the 10 commandments.  These were God's laws that we are all accountable for.  There needed to be a sacrifice for sins and it was done in the form of a lamb.  (I am not sure why God chose this for the payment of sins but that is what God did.)Jesus became the ultimate atonement for our sins.  He paid the price and all we have to do is accept His payment for our sins or we can just deny that we have any sin or deny that God is real.  We have that choice but we are still accountable to the 10 Commandments.  I personally do not want to die and stand before God without having my sins be atoned for.  That won't end well.  I am forever grateful for what Jesus has done for me.

So god made up a rule that Eve couldn't eat a stupid apple, which she did. (if he created women, he should know how they are Tongue)
So than he made up a punishment for us, we would rot in hell for eternity because of that one stupid apple. After a while he made a child, and than killed it and said, you know what, because I killed my own son which was fun enough. You can go all free, but you know, those 10 laws I made up a while ago, you still need to follow those because else I will still punish you till eternity. And you got to worship me and be really thankful to my son, because if I didn't get him killed. I would make your lives even worse.

Yeah, I understand you fear that god, he has some real issues.

And why does your god gives forgiveness for everything unless you don't believe in him, I was baptized and did those 2 ceremonial things when I was a child (no clue how they're called in English). Mostly because it's tradition, my wife and I broke the tradition by not marrying for the church. We are both atheist, and that would condemn us to an eternity in hell, we can't get forgiveness for that. Even though we would never hurt anyone, we don't kill, steal or abuse anyone. Still we go to hell and the priest that abused little children can go chill on a cloud in heaven. Doesn't really makes sense, does it?

And the freaky part is, you live in fear of something that doesn't exist, their is no proof of a god and nothing that points in a direction that there is a god.


Wow.  So much here to comment on.

I too have questioned why God even gave man a choice to choose to disobey in the garden of Eden.  I think our gift of "free will" is a powerful thing though.  I like to think that God wanted to know if we would choose to have a relationship with him by our own choice, not because we are being forced to love him.  If we could force our spouse or children to love us how would we really know if they loved us or not?  

As for God allowing Jesus to die for our sins, the point is that our sins are a serious thing.  It is something that is taken so lightly in our world now though.  But most people are not grateful for what Jesus has done for them.  

As for the priest going to heaven for abusing children, the only way that a priest that abused children could go to heaven is if he truly repented and asked forgiveness for that.  If he was covering up his sins, and even acting like he was "holy" he would be sent to Hell just like anyone else that did not repent.  And many Christian churches have no issue with anyone being married outside of the church.  Those are man's rules, not God's.  Men keep adding their own rules to the Bible and that causes problems.  In fact, the Catholic church requiring priests not to marry is not in the Bible and it might be why there is so many problems with abuse in the Catholic church too.  I have other issues with the Catholic church but those are a couple. This is why it is important to read the Bible for ourselves.

I think that many people today, like you it appears, are what appears to be "good people."  Based on comparing yourself to others you are probably living a pretty moral life.  Because of that you are reaping the rewards of what making good choices brings such as healthy loving relationships and trying to make the world a better place.  This is great but the problem is that it does not change the fact that no matter how good we are there is a standard that is higher.  God's standard is one we can never live up to, and He knows this.  That is why out of mercy He has provided a way for us to have a relationship with Him and eternal life.   In fact, the Bible says that "those who are forgiven of much love much."  In a weird sort of way those that really have a deep appreciation and love of Jesus are those that screwed up more than others and have come to realize that Jesus loves them just like they are.  It is not about earning our way to God.  It is about understanding His deep love for us and then allowing Him to change us because of that.

You can question my relationship with God but I know what my relationship is.  It is one in which He has brought tremendous healing.  I have much gratitude of what He has done for me.  He has helped me make choices that have kept me from many problems in my life and I know that regardless of what difficulties I will have to go through in this hard life I am not alone.  

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