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KFR
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February 12, 2014, 12:54:19 AM
 #41

I wonder how many people would have donated had they known that their donations would end up being spent on a million dollar forum developed by a previously unknown friend of the admin with no other contractors even considered.

I'm sorry - I really don't have a dog in this particular fight but purely as an innocent bystander I'm just a little shocked.

If anybody here would like a full featured HTML5 multi-platform virtual world for less than a million dollars please PM me.  I'll even throw in a free forum.

They're trying to buy all the coins. 
We must not let them.
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February 12, 2014, 02:22:41 AM
 #42

I would have went with a Tender asking what specifics Theymos had in mind
Seventh Continent went with 2x that though Smiley

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February 12, 2014, 02:33:42 AM
 #43

I am still waiting to know who is on this forum software group that is making the decisions, I guess it is just theymos.

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February 12, 2014, 02:34:33 AM
 #44

I am still waiting to know who is on this forum software group that is making the decisions, I guess it is just theymos.

That
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February 12, 2014, 02:44:35 AM
 #45

I am still waiting to know who is on this forum software group that is making the decisions, I guess it is just theymos.

That

Exactly Theymos give me a $150K and I will get the forum done in under a year, all transparent cause I would use github and let anyone to development with me on it. Bitcoin is the greatest open source collaborative software, and we can can't even get a forum done for under $350k? The only thing that this tells me is that bitcoin grew too fast, theymos had all this money and is now feeling like he has to spend it. WORST THEYMOS, open up a github, take some that money, take a year off from everything and head up lead development of a forum. It ain't that hard.

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February 12, 2014, 02:50:16 AM
 #46



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The $350,000 was just a down payment or the full amount owed? If it is not the full amount how much more could this end up costing us?

The total cost will probably be around $1 million. The $350,000 covers several months of work, after which I will evaluate the performance of Slickage Studios and choose whether or not to continue. In any case, the code will be open source, so no work will be lost.


I love how people are glossing over the thought that nearly $1,000,000 might be spent for a forum/website like thats a totally reasonable cost and not sketchy at all because OH NOEZ we can't use existing forum software! Maybe if you actually updated the forum software instead of crying about how "older versions r better cause less features less bugs", you wouldn't need to make decisions like this.
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February 12, 2014, 04:15:33 AM
 #47

Why did you spend $350,000 if you're not even sure if they're able to handle the project?

And why did you take this decision while being as shady as possible?
I understand if you don't give a shit about my opinion (hence, I won't give it), but I'm pretty baffled that the staff & donators were not in the loop.

I don't think "staff" and "donators" received a terms of service when they received their positions or make their donations.

If someone did I would certainly like to read those terms.

I certainly didn't make my contribution with any stings attached.

Theymos is free to do what he wants with my contribution as far as I'm concerned.
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February 12, 2014, 06:11:09 AM
 #48



Quote
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The $350,000 was just a down payment or the full amount owed? If it is not the full amount how much more could this end up costing us?

The total cost will probably be around $1 million. The $350,000 covers several months of work, after which I will evaluate the performance of Slickage Studios and choose whether or not to continue. In any case, the code will be open source, so no work will be lost.


I love how people are glossing over the thought that nearly $1,000,000 might be spent for a forum/website like thats a totally reasonable cost and not sketchy at all because OH NOEZ we can't use existing forum software! Maybe if you actually updated the forum software instead of crying about how "older versions r better cause less features less bugs", you wouldn't need to make decisions like this.
Since I can't explain what the current problem with forum software is as well as Jeff Atwood's team at Discourse, I'll let them explain:
http://www.discourse.org/about/

For many reasons, Discourse isn't what we're looking for, so we too are funding a startup to fix this problem. Jeff Atwood won't tell us how much he raised for Discourse, but with 10 people on the Discourse team working full-time for a year, he's certainly raised more than a million dollars. People are expensive!

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February 12, 2014, 07:40:38 AM
 #49

Based on Theymos specs this may well be the Psy Ops of the internet forum system
Basically Prism in a box but it will shock and awe people towards it
Nuke users with automatic smart IP bans
That said I like it!

What the next revolution in forum creating software will be is anyone's guess.
It is a fair point however that it hasn't really changed all that much since 2000.
This idea does seems to me a bit out of the box and it might be a better solution than trying to create building blocks on current tech.
But aiming for the big guns and becoming the beacon of forum software is quite the goal.
Worth a shot though thanks maged for the expansion on the details.
Guess I'll sit on the sidelines and see what gets created.

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February 12, 2014, 08:11:33 AM
 #50

Luckily I'm a new member and wasn't here when people used to send 50 BTC donations. Not because I have something against donations, but because I'd hate to see my money being spent this way. Most communities use free forum software like PhpBB or SMF (or, of course, paid products like vBulletin) and, in case they need particular customizations, they pay a company to do the work for them. But of course it's nothing like 7 figures or even 6! Not sure why Bitcointalk is so different and needs to spend such amounts of money. At least why not try to update the forum to the latest SMF version or change forum software altogether FOR FREE before trying any other solutions?

A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend. A successful woman is one who can find such a man.
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February 12, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
 #51

...
Quote
Who is the owner of the BTC collected by the forum?

I've answered this many times.

I control most of the money. I consider it my responsibility to appropriately manage this money for the non-profit benefit of the forum, Bitcoin, and the world. I take this responsibility seriously. However, I retain sole control over how the money is spent. No one has any right to influence my decisions, though I can be convinced by reasonable arguments.

The rest of the money is held by treasurers bound by the treasury agreements. Under the treasury agreements, I have a lot of decision-making power, but I can be over-ruled in some cases.

Again, talk to a lawyer if you want to know who owns the money according to governments. I don't care about this unless I have to.
...

I really doubt I'll get an answer as most of my questions about the forum to theymos go unanswered...

Please explain how unilaterally making a decision to spend $350,000 as a down payment on new forum software is appropriate management.  It seems especially inappropriate as the software company does not have a website.
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February 12, 2014, 05:52:29 PM
 #52

Luckily I'm a new member and wasn't here when people used to send 50 BTC donations. Not because I have something against donations, but because I'd hate to see my money being spent this way. Most communities use free forum software like PhpBB or SMF (or, of course, paid products like vBulletin) and, in case they need particular customizations, they pay a company to do the work for them. But of course it's nothing like 7 figures or even 6! Not sure why Bitcointalk is so different and needs to spend such amounts of money. At least why not try to update the forum to the latest SMF version or change forum software altogether FOR FREE before trying any other solutions?

Most communities don't have 6 million dollars sitting around that people have been badgering to have spent on forum software for a year and a half. Frankly, the forum's expenses are pretty minimal now, hosting is covered by PIA in return for an ad slot it seems, and only 25% of the income generated is used, the other 75% goes to storage where it would continue to sit for years. Some security bounties are paid out now and then, but a week's worth of advertising would cover those.

I dont know if Theymos made the right direction in spending a million dollars on a completely custom forum, however you never know, it could turn out really cool, and become a widely used replacement to SMF if it is as neat as it could be. Can you imagine the advertising associated if half of the world's new forums were based on a build created with Bitcoins?

I've said it a few times already, at this particular point in time, I don't especially agree with the decision, however I'm willing to give Theymos time to address certain issues, and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I will start complaining AFTER I see what has been produced. Whats done is done, its not my money, and we aren't going without on something else because Theymos decided to break 1/6th of the bank on new forum software.
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February 12, 2014, 05:58:04 PM
 #53

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I wonder how many people would have donated had they known that their donations would end up being spent on a million dollar forum developed by a previously unknown friend of the admin with no other contractors even considered.

The breakdown of the dissent group appears to be two donators/VIP that want their money back regardless of what theymos does or does not do and a staff member or two also not liking a decision without additional input. The rest of the donators are either mostly staying quiet, optimistically waiting, or pessimistically waiting. I'm in the latter category, because I think that without a project manager with a stake in the game, any project always ends up going several months without results. I see this daily in my day job, unfortunately.

Theymos *has* stated he's looking towards some sort of a governance system in the future as well, so we do have that to be optimistic about, I suppose. I'm willing to wait and see what happens, just like I figure most mods and donators are. It seems a bit early to be outright critical of a decision to get started, IMHO. I mean, it's been close to two years for a good number of us.

Quote
6 million dollars

This might just be a nitpick, but Bitcoin is closer to $500/coin presently than $1k. And some of us are quite bearish and expect it to go to $200 before $1k, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to keep referring to coin held as if it's worth $1k/coin anymore.

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February 12, 2014, 06:06:11 PM
 #54

I dont know if Theymos made the right direction in spending a million dollars on a completely custom forum, however you never know, it could turn out really cool, and become a widely used replacement to SMF if it is as neat as it could be. Can you imagine the advertising associated if half of the world's new forums were based on a build created with Bitcoins?
Absolutely! While I have no comment about who theymos decided to fund at this point in time, I absolutely love the idea. Check out Wikipedia and look at how vBulletin was created...

Quote
In 1999 James E. Limm and John Percival were running a Visual Basic website using Infopop's UBB.classic forum software on VB Forums. As their site grew, they noticed that their software, written in Perl using a flat-file database, could not always cope with the number of users they had. In February 2000, the two decided that it would be better to write their own solution as both were unfamiliar with the software's code and thus unable to optimize it. Initially, it was designed solely as a rewrite of UBB, in PHP using MySQL, and was meant only for their own forum. Other UBB owners expressed interest in the solution, and they offered to sell it to Infopop, but their proposal was rejected. As there was still a demand for the software, Limm and Percival created Jelsoft and released their work as a paid solution, called vBulletin 1

It seems especially inappropriate as the software company does not have a website.
Actually, they do own a hackerspace that they very well may have made the website for:
http://hicapacity.org/

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February 12, 2014, 06:12:27 PM
 #55

Luckily I'm a new member and wasn't here when people used to send 50 BTC donations. Not because I have something against donations, but because I'd hate to see my money being spent this way. Most communities use free forum software like PhpBB or SMF (or, of course, paid products like vBulletin) and, in case they need particular customizations, they pay a company to do the work for them. But of course it's nothing like 7 figures or even 6! Not sure why Bitcointalk is so different and needs to spend such amounts of money. At least why not try to update the forum to the latest SMF version or change forum software altogether FOR FREE before trying any other solutions?

Most communities don't have 6 million dollars sitting around that people have been badgering to have spent on forum software for a year and a half. Frankly, the forum's expenses are pretty minimal now, hosting is covered by PIA in return for an ad slot it seems, and only 25% of the income generated is used, the other 75% goes to storage where it would continue to sit for years. Some security bounties are paid out now and then, but a week's worth of advertising would cover those.

I dont know if Theymos made the right direction in spending a million dollars on a completely custom forum, however you never know, it could turn out really cool, and become a widely used replacement to SMF if it is as neat as it could be. Can you imagine the advertising associated if half of the world's new forums were based on a build created with Bitcoins?

I've said it a few times already, at this particular point in time, I don't especially agree with the decision, however I'm willing to give Theymos time to address certain issues, and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I will start complaining AFTER I see what has been produced. Whats done is done, its not my money, and we aren't going without on something else because Theymos decided to break 1/6th of the bank on new forum software.

I agree that it could turn out to be a great platform, I'm not questioning this. My doubts are about the way the job was assigned (or if alternative cheaper solutions were considered) and why no free upgrades are used in the meantime (for example the latest SMF version), given the complete project will be ready in at least one year.

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February 12, 2014, 06:18:29 PM
 #56

This might just be a nitpick, but Bitcoin is closer to $500/coin presently than $1k. And some of us are quite bearish and expect it to go to $200 before $1k, so I'm not sure it's a good idea to keep referring to coin held as if it's worth $1k/coin anymore.

Thats fine, you are correct Bitcoin holdings should not be denominated in fiat prices, however 1/3rd of the payment was already made, and that was at a higher rate than we are at now. I suppose my main point is, the forums has very few expenses, a good deal of ad revenue, so why not go all out on making a neat new platform. I'm willing to give Theymos the benefit of the doubt on this until he proves that he did not deserve that benefit.

I would have liked to be in the loop regarding his decision making process, but frankly, I don't think that many of the people here myself included would have actually been any help. I'm assuming he talked to people who's technical opinion's he valued, and he made his decision from there. If not, we can boo him in a year's time if the end product is a flop.
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February 12, 2014, 06:40:35 PM
 #57

To be honest, with the idiotic decision to remove the newbie jail, I've found myself coming here less and less.

Then there's the two hacks in the past few months, and sticking to an ancient old forum software.  Guess what? phpBB is free, supported, and probably can import the DB from this wheezy old crap. 

I think the forum is pretty much dead. It just hasn't stopped twitching yet.

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btcmad1337
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February 12, 2014, 11:40:06 PM
 #58

To be honest, with the idiotic decision to remove the newbie jail, I've found myself coming here less and less.

Then there's the two hacks in the past few months, and sticking to an ancient old forum software.  Guess what? phpBB is free, supported, and probably can import the DB from this wheezy old crap.  

I think the forum is pretty much dead. It just hasn't stopped twitching yet.

PHPBB isn't much better with regards functionality, does not handle big forums well at all and it is far less secure in general compared to SMF. The code is very messy and pretty sketchy in places and there a ton of file inclusions in PHPBB - that is not a good combination!

It doesn't have the best track-record when it comes to security either:
http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-1529/Phpbb.html

Here is SMF's:
http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-2069/product_id-3598/Simple-Machines-SMF.html

Don't get me wrong, SMF sucks, but most forum software does. It's a good thing BitcoinTalk is making their own and even better that its being released open source, I'm just not liking the lack of transparency and I hope the costs will be justified in the end.
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February 12, 2014, 11:55:24 PM
 #59

People tend to complain a lot about why Bitcointalk isn't using a newer SMF version. Despite the reason being stated a bunch of times, updating to a newer version of SMF isn't as simple as people think it is. An upgrade would probably break a lot of the custom code on Bitcointalk. Some people still don't understand this and think it's something that can be done in a couple of minutes.

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February 13, 2014, 03:40:54 AM
 #60

Our company employs very capable and highly skilled software engineers that have worked closely with other companies in the past, everything from server side ops and scalability up to mobile applications - iOS and Android. Our design repertoire includes a lot of NDA work and is on a need to know basis so I'd like to reveal only to certain individuals. Please contact me if you have any questions.

In regards to engaging the community with the new forum development, the idea is to start a sub-section or series of threads and take information from the community about feature requests, discussions, bugs, etc.

Design work has started on the forum, but the first delivery to this community is an auction system for the ad spaces app that will integrate with the current forum. We'll be revealing that in the upcoming weeks.

I'd like to add that one of the major concerns for the future forum implementation is security and we'll be getting it checked with a professional security agency and hopefully get some public input on security checks (since it will be completely open source software).

As for the migration, users can volunteer to be migrated over to the new service, while still keeping their old account on the old system (SMF) with their user data intact. Back links and track backs should all work as expected to make sure links don't break from other sites.

As Theymos pointed out: The goal of this software project is to create new, open source forum software which will compete with SMF, phpBB, etc.


This is my crash introduction to the community and it's very exciting to be fully engaged on an open source system that will be used for this forum. You'll see more of my posts in the future regarding forum development.
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