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February 13, 2014, 08:37:51 PM
 #121

Well I agree with others, 1 million dollar for a opensource forum software is pretty a big amount, It's like paying 1 million dollar for a pizza now (that lazlo ate in 2010 Cheesy)

If theymos have paid 5500 BTC for a new forum software in 2011, no one would have asked a question because bitcoins price was low that time, but now even 1000 BTC is too much.




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February 13, 2014, 08:43:41 PM
 #122

@Wangbus, How much time it will take to migrate/convert this forum into a new one, after new forum software will be ready?


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February 13, 2014, 08:49:28 PM
 #123

@Wangbus, How much time it will take to migrate/convert this forum into a new one, after new forum software will be ready?
That's a good question. I hope for that price everyone will get to keep their watchlist, and all the negative trust (and none of the positive one, because it's BAD).

But what I'd like, here, really, is to gain access to the specifications you're working with.
And for each feature, I'd like to have a workload estimate, and a progress bar.

How many people will work on this, btw?



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February 13, 2014, 08:53:45 PM
 #124

Within the first 3 months, I'd like to have an initial version up of the new forum software. Migration will happen afterwards. I'm not sure about how long this will take yet.
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February 13, 2014, 08:56:39 PM
 #125

im pretty sure goat expects current rate + 80% interest for his time + another 80% for loss of income + a dinner with theymos in vegas


Just out of curiosity all of you who want a refund of your donations are you expecting straight XBT refund or fiat equivalent and why?  Also why did you donate at the time if those questions weren't answered?
Since the forum donation levels are pegged to BTC, they obviously want a refund in BTC. Works both ways you know  Tongue
So someone donated to the forums a few years back at $10/XBT and let's say the forum spent that XBT on hosting or some other minor things.  So by your logic where will these refunds come from now; out of the current donations, theymos' pocket, or where from exactly?  Is every later donator supposed to basically subsidize these refunds and give a profit to earlier donators?

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February 13, 2014, 09:13:37 PM
 #126

A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.

With all due respect, that sounds disturbingly like naive and commercially inexperienced programmer accounting and not real world business accounting.

I currently employ twelve developers, run two software development companies and have been doing that kind of things for many years.  From my perspective the figures you're quoting here are nonsense. Smiley

Maybe it makes some sense if you can only employ people from California, one of the most expensive places on Earth for this kind of thing by the way.  But even then it's a pretty generous arrangement.

I don't care how you cut it:

If anyone thinks a million dollars is in any way appropriate - or frankly even $350k - for a custom forum build then I've got a bridge or two I'd like to sell them.

They're trying to buy all the coins. 
We must not let them.
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February 13, 2014, 10:47:39 PM
 #127

I'm pretty dissapointed that some of the money will go for an automated ad auction system, that will only work on a dying forum software, and will need to be ported to the new custom one after that. Is that really necessary?

The auction system is written in Node. It will be able to be used with the new software without much modification.

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February 14, 2014, 01:42:53 AM
 #128

I'm pretty dissapointed that some of the money will go for an automated ad auction system, that will only work on a dying forum software, and will need to be ported to the new custom one after that. Is that really necessary?

The auction system is written in Node. It will be able to be used with the new software without much modification.

You answer one question? Come on we need answers. Please don't just ignore questions.

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February 14, 2014, 02:16:07 AM
 #129

A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.

With all due respect, that sounds disturbingly like naive and commercially inexperienced programmer accounting and not real world business accounting.

I currently employ twelve developers, run two software development companies and have been doing that kind of things for many years.  From my perspective the figures you're quoting here are nonsense. Smiley

Maybe it makes some sense if you can only employ people from California, one of the most expensive places on Earth for this kind of thing by the way.  But even then it's a pretty generous arrangement.

I don't care how you cut it:

If anyone thinks a million dollars is in any way appropriate - or frankly even $350k - for a custom forum build then I've got a bridge or two I'd like to sell them.


I think the forum does need a bridge.

It's time all us trolls get something over our heads!
+1
I'm curious if the price was fiat or XBT.  The way the exchange rate is going nowadays who knows it might end up costing more then 5000XBT.
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February 14, 2014, 02:21:20 AM
 #130

I hope for that price everyone will get to keep their watchlist, and all the negative trust (and none of the positive one, because it's BAD).

But what I'd like, here, really, is to gain access to the specifications you're working with.
And for each feature, I'd like to have a workload estimate, and a progress bar.

How many people will work on this, btw?

Thank you Kouye! This is the type of feedback we're looking for. Although we can copy as much of the functionality as possible from SMF to ease the transition from this forum to the next. It's up to you guys to help point out the features that are essentially broken or could be better in other ways.

As for the specification, once we make the Github account public, you can track our progress and issues there. You can even submit your own issues as you guys use the new software.

As for the number of people working on the forum, Wangbus and I have volunteered to go public (and thrown to the trolls) but we do not feel it's fair to others (if there are any.  Huh) for us to release that information. Is this a cheap cop out? In essence, yes. But that's the best I can do given the circumstances. You can assume there's at least two of us.



For everyone else, we understand your concerns and agree that they are valid concerns. I would be just as skeptical about "some company" coming in and trying to sell some million dollar software. The best we can offer is that we are professional Software Engineers. You have our day to day / professional handles. The information about us is out there. You will probably come to your own conclusions as many have. We cannot sway those conclusions with just words. We hope that as we start releasing software, we can start to change your perceptions. We hope that we can work with the community to build better software.

I am a Epochtalk (New Forum Software) Developer.
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February 14, 2014, 02:45:26 AM
 #131

For everyone else, we understand your concerns and agree that they are valid concerns. I would be just as skeptical about "some company" coming in and trying to sell some million dollar software.

Then why are you doing it? Why are you overcharging if you know you are?

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February 14, 2014, 04:46:04 AM
 #132

While I can't answer for theymos, I thought that I would at least provide my thoughts to the discussion.
I still don't get why you require a $1 million payday. Don't you think that is a little high? If you are serious about creating the next big forum why not start with $150K build something that is a fairly good prototype then raise some seed funding? I just can't wrap my head around a $1 million payment for some forum software.
Because there is not much money if forum software anymore. Jeff Atwood got his seed funding for Discourse off of name recognition alone. If you disagree with this statement, please give me a list of startups that started in the last five years that are working on new forum software, along with how much funding they've received (if available). I am genuinely curious to see how much attention forums have received from VCs and angel investors recently.

I have worked on custom CRMs, and custom software, but I never got anywhere close to $1 million, 6 figures yes. Are you saying that this forum project is on scale of a enterprise system?
I would argue that it is. First and foremost, this new forum software is being made for us and us alone. Sure, we're giving it away to the public, but that's besides the point. Since it's hard to make a case that there is still much money to be made in forums (as I brought up above and might be wrong about), software companies entered negotiations with us believing that we could very well be the only paying customer. We wanted this done now, no matter what, and we could afford it, so we stuck with that belief and compensated them accordingly. In return, we required them to make the project be open-source. They can act as the official distributor, maintain the official repo, and provide consulting services (much like wordpress), but they can NEVER require anybody to buy any of the code that they produce for us.

Again, I would love to be proven wrong in my assumption that people aren't investing in new forum software anymore, because at least then there will be some innovation outside of our platform to look forward to and integrate in the future. But as it is, we've already paid our initial deposit, so there's no point in arguing that we should have paid less. Instead, look for reasons why we should get more for our money. Convince them that outside investors can and will fund the rest of the project.

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February 14, 2014, 05:05:53 AM
 #133

I still don't get why you require a $1 million payday. Don't you think that is a little high? If you are serious about creating the next big forum why not start with $150K build something that is a fairly good prototype then raise some seed funding? I just can't wrap my head around a $1 million payment for some forum software.
Because there is not much money if forum software anymore. Jeff Atwood got his seed funding for Discourse off of name recognition alone. If you disagree with this statement, please give me a list of startups that started in the last five years that are working on new forum software, along with how much funding they've received (if available). I am genuinely curious to see how much attention forums have received from VCs and angel investors recently.

I agree no VCs or angels are investing on forum softwares, but the forum softwares haven't really changed, but Discourse. I agree with theymos Discourse is not a good platform at all for this forum to change to.

I have worked on custom CRMs, and custom software, but I never got anywhere close to $1 million, 6 figures yes. Are you saying that this forum project is on scale of a enterprise system?
I would argue that it is. First and foremost, this new forum software is being made for us and us alone. Sure, we're giving it away to the public, but that's besides the point. Since it's hard to make a case that there is still much money to be made in forums (as I brought up above and might be wrong about), software companies entered negotiations with us believing that we could very well be the only paying customer. We wanted this done now, no matter what, and we could afford it, so we stuck with that belief and compensated them accordingly. In return, we required them to make the project be open-source. They can act as the official distributor, maintain the official repo, and provide consulting services (much like wordpress), but they can NEVER require anybody to buy any of the code that they produce for us.

Again, I would love to be proven wrong in my assumption that people aren't investing in new forum software anymore, because at least then there will be some innovation outside of our platform to look forward to and integrate in the future. But as it is, we've already paid our initial deposit, so there's no point in arguing that we should have paid less. Instead, look for reasons why we should get more for our money. Convince them that outside investors can and will fund the rest of the project.

I have highlighted the part that makes me sad. Theymos just paid, didn't consult any people in the community. What ever happened to that group that was going to over see this project?

And more for your money, they want to run up the bill to $1 million, write it in javaEE and host it for 5yrs for us.

From a project (Bitcoin) that is so democratic, they are a lot of tyrants around these business and controlling groups.

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February 14, 2014, 05:36:19 AM
 #134

From a project (Bitcoin) that is so democratic, they are a lot of tyrants around these business and controlling groups.
I hate to say it, but at the end of the day, dictators get things done. If new forum software were just a nice thing to have sometime in the next ten or so years, then theymos absolutely made the wrong call. However, we needed new 21st century forum technology here two (three?) years ago, so I can't fault theymos too badly for just going ahead with this on his own. I just hope that he realizes that if this goes bad, he is solely responsible for the outcome. Since I don't wish ill fortune against theymos, I'm hopeful that this will turn out just fine and we'll all be able to laugh about this later.

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February 14, 2014, 08:44:41 AM
 #135

Just a request, please create a sub-forum for this project sooner rather than later. It would be helpful to have organized discussions where people could address specific concerns with SMF and propose solutions.
Good idea.
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February 14, 2014, 09:03:55 AM
 #136

I want one mother fucker here to step forward if you even contributed more then $500 in bit coin at the time that you gave it.

sure it's worth millions now but at the time that 5500 coins was worth less then 100k.

I feel like its super hypocritical that some of you are assigning 2 different values to the same money.

this million dollar software is getting bought with $20k worth of donations. your getting a great deal.

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February 14, 2014, 12:28:20 PM
 #137

Because there is not much money if forum software anymore. Jeff Atwood got his seed funding for Discourse off of name recognition alone. If you disagree with this statement, please give me a list of startups that started in the last five years that are working on new forum software, along with how much funding they've received (if available). I am genuinely curious to see how much attention forums have received from VCs and angel investors recently.

I would argue that it is. First and foremost, this new forum software is being made for us and us alone. Sure, we're giving it away to the public, but that's besides the point. Since it's hard to make a case that there is still much money to be made in forums (as I brought up above and might be wrong about), software companies entered negotiations with us believing that we could very well be the only paying customer. We wanted this done now, no matter what, and we could afford it, so we stuck with that belief and compensated them accordingly. In return, we required them to make the project be open-source. They can act as the official distributor, maintain the official repo, and provide consulting services (much like wordpress), but they can NEVER require anybody to buy any of the code that they produce for us.

Again, I would love to be proven wrong in my assumption that people aren't investing in new forum software anymore, because at least then there will be some innovation outside of our platform to look forward to and integrate in the future. But as it is, we've already paid our initial deposit, so there's no point in arguing that we should have paid less. Instead, look for reasons why we should get more for our money. Convince them that outside investors can and will fund the rest of the project.

"We"? There is no "we". You did not participated in the decision and it is not your money. So stop with this "we" bullshit, OK?

I hate to say it, but at the end of the day, dictators get things done. If new forum software were just a nice thing to have sometime in the next ten or so years, then theymos absolutely made the wrong call. However, we needed new 21st century forum technology here two (three?) years ago, so I can't fault theymos too badly for just going ahead with this on his own. I just hope that he realizes that if this goes bad, he is solely responsible for the outcome. Since I don't wish ill fortune against theymos, I'm hopeful that this will turn out just fine and we'll all be able to laugh about this later.

LoL

The only thing that Michael got done until now is a flawed trust system and an activity counter...
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February 14, 2014, 12:56:57 PM
 #138

I want one mother fucker here to step forward if you even contributed more then $500 in bit coin at the time that you gave it.

We have our first VIP member: smart1985. Thank you!
2011-08-29, BTC was around $9, so that's $450

From August 2012, BTC was usually above $10, so here's a list of mother fuckers:
New VIP donator: eb3full. Thanks!
New VIP donator: MemoryDealers. Thanks!
New VIP donator: augustocroppo. Thanks!
New VIP donator: dustintrammell. Thanks!

Yeah, well... I'm gonna go build my own blockchain, with blackjack and hookers. In fact, forget the blockchain!
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February 14, 2014, 01:20:32 PM
 #139

How much of that 350k is being sent back to your bank account so you're not accused if stealing funds? We're not 9 years old and stupid enough to believe you found a company that doesn't even have a website to build forum software for 350,000. Sounds like one of those ill give my friend the job type deals. I'll await the oh he scammed me messages.
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February 14, 2014, 01:41:09 PM
 #140

I would like to ask some questions and also express some of my views on the matter in hand.

Obviously, a big issue is the automated ad auctions, why do we need this? Haven't you expressed enough times already that the forum doesn't need any more money, yet you are 'investing' in a module which is going to increase the income of the forum. Another question, is what do you plan on doing with this money that you have gained from this new auction module? Do you plan on keeping the new forum software up to date and fixing vulnerabilities with it or do you plan on paying staff members with it or anything else? Isn't the new automated auction going to run into problems too?

 
Quote
You can still donate 10/50 BTC for Donator/VIP status. It isn't really emphasized anymore though because the forums doesn't really need more donations. The amount is not being changed, because 10 BTC has always been 10 BTC, and the dollar amount is irrelevant. Theymos had thought about adding smaller increment donations, however did not because no more money is needed.

Here's a quote from a staff member stating that the forum no longer needs money, and let's be honest even though you are spending a awful lot on this forum software you will still have a lot left over. Now, why would you want to focus on this and implement this into the new forum if you don't require any donations, because ad revenue is basically a donation to the forum but you pay staff members a percentage of it.

Another question: Why did you pick James Wang to develop the software for that amount of money? It seems that a lot of others at the forum would be willing to do what you are asking him to do for much less, and maybe these people are more qualified. I want to know why you didn't communicate to the forum about this, why couldn't users at this forum get involved and create a open source forum software between each other. Gweedo is more than qualified for this along with several other programmers at the forum.

Quote from: theymos
I've decided not to create an official announcement thread today. But I will answer some questions.
If this project really is open source then why are you not answering all our questions? You have to convince us that this is a good idea because lets face it there hasn't been much communication between the administrator team and the community. Even staff members are ill informed and are not sure what is being done.

According to CrunchBase Slickage Studios have 4 employees and founded in 2012. Surely, in 2 years there isn't enough past work present to show they are the company for the job. Established companies or well known people which have done big projects are normally the people to hire because the big projects are normally known by a lot of people. But, such a newly created company which has I personally have never heard of and I'm sure others haven't either are now working on a one million dollar project, which will probably turn out to be more because of vulnerabilities found and other issues. How long are Slickage studious going to continue support after the software has been handed over.

What I don't like about this whole thing is we don't even know if they are capable of doing this, it seems either not a lot of research was done or you like to gamble. If you have reasons why Slickage Studios is the right company for the job then please send us some references so we can have a look personally too. In many peoples eyes I can understand why they think you might want get the money out of the forum and into your pocket by hiring someone who you personally know or have a mutual friend. I have seen the IOS apps that they have posted and I'm less than impressed, their design and functionality are not impressive one bit. All I do know about him is that he learned was learning Python in March 2009.


James, I have a question. You have tweeted previously on twitter this:
Quote
Why are you working on a startup? Is it for the money? If it is, you're doing it wrong.
If that's your philosophy then why are you requiring 1 million to start this? Or do you lie much? 

Also another tweet:
Quote
I am going to become obsessed with security pretty soon.

You tweeted this on march 2013, I hope you have done your home work in less than a year my friend.

I'm also glad we are hiring Wang because he is always productive.
Quote
I was texting whales to Julie all weekend. LOL


I have nothing against Wang or Theymos, but you have stated that you have been transparent and are doing the best for the community yet we have not had many answers or have we been involved in any of the decisions (Although I strongly disagree with this), maybe normal users like me shouldn't be included in the decisions but donators and people who have helped you ie. the staff should at least have a say in this.



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Whitepaper
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ANN Thread
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