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February 13, 2014, 06:47:21 AM
 #81

All negativity aside...

We will do our best with this project and hope the community responds with support. All source will be open source once we're ready for contributions.

Theymos has done enough work to work with us to know our competency through our mutual networks. We are doing the community a favor by building this and also for the open source community because a forum of this sort isn't exactly high priority on the "hipster" Silicon Valley list of important things to do. However there is a lot to be done in terms of making the technology more up to date. I hope we can all agree on that note.
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February 13, 2014, 06:53:14 AM
 #82

All negativity aside...

We will do our best with this project and hope the community responds with support. All source will be open source once we're ready for contributions.

Theymos has done enough work to work with us to know our competency through our mutual networks. We are doing the community a favor by building this and also for the open source community because a forum of this sort isn't exactly high priority on the "hipster" Silicon Valley list of important things to do. However there is a lot to be done in terms of making the technology more up to date. I hope we can all agree on that note.

Heh, sorry I thought you were an imposter. I read a few of your posts perhaps in the wrong light, and thought someone was making a joke.
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February 13, 2014, 06:55:16 AM
 #83

forum business is too hard thing really. The stress you have is not comparable to other kind sites. I understand theymos, i still respect him and no question at all. The only place one can questionable is in court.
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February 13, 2014, 07:04:53 AM
 #84

No when you hire someone for $150 and you can't use it, it isn't a waste. When you hire someone for $350K you don't have waste. That is a huge sum of money for any development project, that could fail.
The person you're currently grilling is a post-doctoral researcher with a published body of work in statistics and electrical engineering. Please don't suggest that these people are overpaid or unqualified, or that they'll produce something completely useless. This could be a yearlong relationship, why start on a sour note? They deserve much more than $1,000,000 for working with this community.

I am a freelance programmer, have started my own companies, and if you think this is grilling then you are mistaken. This is how the real world conducts business. If I could show you some of the request and questions I get asked when I am doing a project, my grilling would look like a cakewalk. So now let the people that know what they are doing, do what they need to do.

Remember theymos was going to have a group of people to head up doing this and question the people he choose to do this. Guess what, I am making myself that official unofficial person. So in 6 months when theymos goes we don't have $350K worth of bitcoins anymore and no new forum is coming, I can sit and go at least I tried to do something.

I don't think they deserve more than $150K for this, most programmers can do this with that amount of money. But it isn't me making the deal so yeah...

We don't mind the questions. That's what we're here for right now, and why we've created accounts with our day to day handles. We're here to engage the community. So ask away.

As for the amounts being tossed around, I obviously can't speak for Theymos or for James. But I can do a quick back of the envelope calculation. gweedo, being that you're a programmer too, I'm sure you can relate to this.

A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.

As a freelancer, I'm sure you charge around the same rate to compensate for the "self-employment tax," your own benefits, etc.

I am a Epochtalk (New Forum Software) Developer.
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February 13, 2014, 07:06:47 AM
 #85

I am calling bullshit on the teasup and wangbus accounts. I won't change my mind unless Theymos states that they are the "real deal".

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February 13, 2014, 07:07:31 AM
 #86

All negativity aside...

We will do our best with this project and hope the community responds with support. All source will be open source once we're ready for contributions.

Theymos has done enough work to work with us to know our competency through our mutual networks. We are doing the community a favor by building this and also for the open source community because a forum of this sort isn't exactly high priority on the "hipster" Silicon Valley list of important things to do. However there is a lot to be done in terms of making the technology more up to date. I hope we can all agree on that note.

I still don't get why you require a $1 million payday. Don't you think that is a little high? If you are serious about creating the next big forum why not start with $150K build something that is a fairly good prototype then raise some seed funding? I just can't wrap my head around a $1 million payment for some forum software.

I have worked on custom CRMs, and custom software, but I never got anywhere close to $1 million, 6 figures yes. Are you saying that this forum project is on scale of a enterprise system? I just can't justify the price tag.

I feel like that now that you say you know theymos thru mutual networks, did you know about how much the forum has in the surplus funds? I feel like you are milking the community.

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February 13, 2014, 07:11:34 AM
 #87

No when you hire someone for $150 and you can't use it, it isn't a waste. When you hire someone for $350K you don't have waste. That is a huge sum of money for any development project, that could fail.
The person you're currently grilling is a post-doctoral researcher with a published body of work in statistics and electrical engineering. Please don't suggest that these people are overpaid or unqualified, or that they'll produce something completely useless. This could be a yearlong relationship, why start on a sour note? They deserve much more than $1,000,000 for working with this community.

I am a freelance programmer, have started my own companies, and if you think this is grilling then you are mistaken. This is how the real world conducts business. If I could show you some of the request and questions I get asked when I am doing a project, my grilling would look like a cakewalk. So now let the people that know what they are doing, do what they need to do.

Remember theymos was going to have a group of people to head up doing this and question the people he choose to do this. Guess what, I am making myself that official unofficial person. So in 6 months when theymos goes we don't have $350K worth of bitcoins anymore and no new forum is coming, I can sit and go at least I tried to do something.

I don't think they deserve more than $150K for this, most programmers can do this with that amount of money. But it isn't me making the deal so yeah...

We don't mind the questions. That's what we're here for right now, and why we've created accounts with our day to day handles. We're here to engage the community. So ask away.

As for the amounts being tossed around, I obviously can't speak for Theymos or for James. But I can do a quick back of the envelope calculation. gweedo, being that you're a programmer too, I'm sure you can relate to this.

A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.

As a freelancer, I'm sure you charge around the same rate to compensate for the "self-employment tax," your own benefits, etc.

So this your only project? You are exclusively working only on the forum software? Cause I worked with design/development firms and they usually have multiple projects going on, to keep cost down for the clients. A forum costing $1 million and taking a year to build, I never seen this happen, and to be honest it is insane. When we have an amazing community of developers that probably love to dedicate a few spare hours a day helping this cause.

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February 13, 2014, 07:15:30 AM
 #88

Hey Guys,
Welcome to the forum! Thanks for using a known handle, it's reassuring to see that a professional research team will undertake this project. Taesup Moon's work is easy to find online. James Wang's work is also available.

The pay is generous, that's the price of having a dedicated team work with a community to attempt a new industry standard. This forum has enough money. Even if the prototype diverges from theymos' expectations, no work will have been wasted.

Sorry, that's not me! But that is James. As for my Github profile, it's https://github.com/taesup. Now let's see if you can find my github.io page and/or my personal homepage... it's not hard. I apologize in advance though. I haven't updated either in quite a while.

Quote from: http://taesup.com/
My name is Ed. I write code and shit.

Really professional!

Thanks! I wrote that years ago as a personal site and just haven't had time to really update it. I actually don't really like to follow the corporate culture where everyone wears a tie and all that jazz. I'm more of a rebel in that way. Maybe I'll just leave it how it is...

I am a Epochtalk (New Forum Software) Developer.
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February 13, 2014, 07:17:19 AM
 #89

Community involvement do not contribute at a pace and/or contribute without much accountability. I'd like to push this project past its initial workings then allow involvement. Forum software in general sucks as Theymos stated. For those who know me understand that I am in love with the idea of improving communication. I'd like to improve that and this is a good opportunity to do so.
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February 13, 2014, 07:17:54 AM
 #90

Hey Guys,
Welcome to the forum! Thanks for using a known handle, it's reassuring to see that a professional research team will undertake this project. Taesup Moon's work is easy to find online. James Wang's work is also available.

The pay is generous, that's the price of having a dedicated team work with a community to attempt a new industry standard. This forum has enough money. Even if the prototype diverges from theymos' expectations, no work will have been wasted.

Sorry, that's not me! But that is James. As for my Github profile, it's https://github.com/taesup. Now let's see if you can find my github.io page and/or my personal homepage... it's not hard. I apologize in advance though. I haven't updated either in quite a while.

Quote from: http://taesup.com/
My name is Ed. I write code and shit.

Really professional!

Thanks! I wrote that years ago as a personal site and just haven't had time to really update it. I actually don't really like to follow the corporate culture where everyone wears a tie and all that jazz. I'm more of a rebel in that way. Maybe I'll just leave it how it is...

Yeah it is pretty cool.  Wink
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February 13, 2014, 07:20:39 AM
 #91

I am calling bullshit on the teasup and wangbus accounts. I won't change my mind unless Theymos states that they are the "real deal".

You are entitled to your own opinions and this is a valid concern. Maybe to quell any doubts, we'll ask theymos to formally introduce the members at some point in the near future. 

I am a Epochtalk (New Forum Software) Developer.
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February 13, 2014, 07:23:33 AM
 #92

Community involvement do not contribute at a pace and/or contribute without much accountability. I'd like to push this project past its initial workings then allow involvement. Forum software in general sucks as Theymos stated. For those who know me understand that I am in love with the idea of improving communication. I'd like to improve that and this is a good opportunity to do so.

But we want to keep cost down so why not open source from the start? It would the greatest transparency. Also if this is a passionate project for you why didn't you raise capital from outside VCs? Does the bitcointalk forum own a piece of this forum if it ever it went the way of the other open source projects and started generating income?

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February 13, 2014, 07:33:40 AM
 #93

Sorry dude, you'll have to ask the remaining questions to Theymos. I'm being as upfront as possible and I don't think the amount is out of hand. Startups in the valley get 1M for a year with a small team very easily for a project and scale wise, this is probably much harder than a lot of things out there.

EDIT: Sorry I misread. I will have it open sourced from the very start once we are past the design phase.
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February 13, 2014, 07:36:13 AM
 #94

Sorry dude, you'll have to ask the remaining questions to Theymos. I'm being as upfront as possible and I don't think the amount is out of hand. Startups in the valley get 1M for a year with a small team very easily for a project and scale wise, this is probably much harder than a lot of things out there.

Statups in the valley get $1 million to generate income and be able to grow to a point where they can return investments. You are writing custom software, really not seeing a correlation to to that.

And now we start the run around, theymos will say ask you, you will say ask theymos and the infinite loop will begin.

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February 13, 2014, 07:39:14 AM
 #95

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Does the bitcointalk forum own a piece of this forum if it ever it went the way of the other open source projects and started generating income?

From my understanding, no... this will be completely open source.
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February 13, 2014, 08:03:12 AM
 #96

No when you hire someone for $150 and you can't use it, it isn't a waste. When you hire someone for $350K you don't have waste. That is a huge sum of money for any development project, that could fail.
The person you're currently grilling is a post-doctoral researcher with a published body of work in statistics and electrical engineering. Please don't suggest that these people are overpaid or unqualified, or that they'll produce something completely useless. This could be a yearlong relationship, why start on a sour note? They deserve much more than $1,000,000 for working with this community.

I am a freelance programmer, have started my own companies, and if you think this is grilling then you are mistaken. This is how the real world conducts business. If I could show you some of the request and questions I get asked when I am doing a project, my grilling would look like a cakewalk. So now let the people that know what they are doing, do what they need to do.

Remember theymos was going to have a group of people to head up doing this and question the people he choose to do this. Guess what, I am making myself that official unofficial person. So in 6 months when theymos goes we don't have $350K worth of bitcoins anymore and no new forum is coming, I can sit and go at least I tried to do something.

I don't think they deserve more than $150K for this, most programmers can do this with that amount of money. But it isn't me making the deal so yeah...

We don't mind the questions. That's what we're here for right now, and why we've created accounts with our day to day handles. We're here to engage the community. So ask away.

As for the amounts being tossed around, I obviously can't speak for Theymos or for James. But I can do a quick back of the envelope calculation. gweedo, being that you're a programmer too, I'm sure you can relate to this.

A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.

As a freelancer, I'm sure you charge around the same rate to compensate for the "self-employment tax," your own benefits, etc.

So this your only project? You are exclusively working only on the forum software? Cause I worked with design/development firms and they usually have multiple projects going on, to keep cost down for the clients. A forum costing $1 million and taking a year to build, I never seen this happen, and to be honest it is insane. When we have an amazing community of developers that probably love to dedicate a few spare hours a day helping this cause.

So in response to your previous questions, as much as I'm allowed to at least, we do have other clients and we do try to keep our costs low. As such, we believe our rate is competitive. In all fairness, we hope that this project doesn't just end in a year, no software project ever just ends. At least, not open source ones. We do hope that the community can contribute as well. In our shared experience though, someone does need to champion the cause and often times money is the best motivator. We hope that we can set a good base for the forum, get the designs out the door, then allow the open source community to help fix bugs and build features.

The most successful open source project are usually backed by some commercial sponsor. Node.js itself is backed by Joyent. Also, we want to keep the funding within the hands of BitcoinTalk. This also ensure that any commercial sponsor outside the community can't hijack the project by threatening to pull funds.

As for other startups, many millions have been invested into startups that still have not turned profitable but continues to succeed in their own space. Twitter is a great example of this. We are comparatively cheap on that scale.

As for the software itself, it is not a custom piece of software. When open sourced, it'll be available for use by anyone just like vBulletin.

I am a Epochtalk (New Forum Software) Developer.
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February 13, 2014, 08:15:22 AM
 #97

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Does the bitcointalk forum own a piece of this forum if it ever it went the way of the other open source projects and started generating income?

From my understanding, no... this will be completely open source.

What is the agreement if it starts making money?


No when you hire someone for $150 and you can't use it, it isn't a waste. When you hire someone for $350K you don't have waste. That is a huge sum of money for any development project, that could fail.
The person you're currently grilling is a post-doctoral researcher with a published body of work in statistics and electrical engineering. Please don't suggest that these people are overpaid or unqualified, or that they'll produce something completely useless. This could be a yearlong relationship, why start on a sour note? They deserve much more than $1,000,000 for working with this community.

I am a freelance programmer, have started my own companies, and if you think this is grilling then you are mistaken. This is how the real world conducts business. If I could show you some of the request and questions I get asked when I am doing a project, my grilling would look like a cakewalk. So now let the people that know what they are doing, do what they need to do.

Remember theymos was going to have a group of people to head up doing this and question the people he choose to do this. Guess what, I am making myself that official unofficial person. So in 6 months when theymos goes we don't have $350K worth of bitcoins anymore and no new forum is coming, I can sit and go at least I tried to do something.

I don't think they deserve more than $150K for this, most programmers can do this with that amount of money. But it isn't me making the deal so yeah...

We don't mind the questions. That's what we're here for right now, and why we've created accounts with our day to day handles. We're here to engage the community. So ask away.

As for the amounts being tossed around, I obviously can't speak for Theymos or for James. But I can do a quick back of the envelope calculation. gweedo, being that you're a programmer too, I'm sure you can relate to this.

A typical programmer costs around the price of about 80k a year (that's low for Silicon Valley too). Which comes out to about 37 an hour. All companies need to pay for benefits, overhead, rent, electricity, etc on TOP of paying out a employee. So normally you would charge a rate around 2 to 3 times the salary of a employee. That's already around 114 an hour, or 240k a year. And there's already more than one employee working on the bitcoin forums... so yea.

As a freelancer, I'm sure you charge around the same rate to compensate for the "self-employment tax," your own benefits, etc.

So this your only project? You are exclusively working only on the forum software? Cause I worked with design/development firms and they usually have multiple projects going on, to keep cost down for the clients. A forum costing $1 million and taking a year to build, I never seen this happen, and to be honest it is insane. When we have an amazing community of developers that probably love to dedicate a few spare hours a day helping this cause.

So in response to your previous questions, as much as I'm allowed to at least, we do have other clients and we do try to keep our costs low. As such, we believe our rate is competitive. In all fairness, we hope that this project doesn't just end in a year, no software project ever just ends. At least, not open source ones. We do hope that the community can contribute as well. In our shared experience though, someone does need to champion the cause and often times money is the best motivator. We hope that we can set a good base for the forum, get the designs out the door, then allow the open source community to help fix bugs and build features.

The most successful open source project are usually backed by some commercial sponsor. Node.js itself is backed by Joyent. Also, we want to keep the funding within the hands of BitcoinTalk. This also ensure that any commercial sponsor outside the community can't hijack the project by threatening to pull funds.

As for other startups, many millions have been invested into startups that still have not turned profitable but continues to succeed in their own space. Twitter is a great example of this. We are comparatively cheap on that scale.

As for the software itself, it is not a custom piece of software. When open sourced, it'll be available for use by anyone just like vBulletin.

Vbulletin isn't open sourced, it cost money. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBulletin

Again wrong, twitter has actually made a lot of people very wealthy, and aimded to IPO, I doubt a custom forum software will allow you to do that.

Plus you are comparing a language that allows people to scale companies to forum software? Lets get in the real world, forum software is pretty outdated, it is only useful to a niche market like us. I doubt any company will sponsor unless it is a bitcoin company or company that uses forum software.

Well your prices aren't competitive at all, and now that you have revealed that this isn't your only project, that makes your price seem even more insane. Now you are taking the idea of being the lead of an open source software, but how does that warrant a $1 million price tag? You do see how we are skeptical, we have yet to see any portfolio of the company, and I never heard of you, and you are hiding behind this NDA. I really don't think you should be getting $1 million for pretty simple software and you aren't even working full time. I think you really need to convince this community of what you are able to do. For $1 million I should be blown away by the quality of the software, but if you are just going to allow the open source community to clean up bugs and you just going to pocket $1 million that is really not right and unethical. These are donation funds not some company, I am really disappointed in theymos for his choice.

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February 13, 2014, 09:50:40 AM
 #98

therymos doesn't get forum software designed, matthewmwright holds a press conference claiming fraud, everyone gets out the pitchforks. therymos gets forum software designed, everyone claims fraud, gets out the pitchforks.

are you guys able to design a quantum version of the forum software where they both design and don't design the forum software?  that should allow both groups to be happy.

Hi forum: 1DDpiEt36VTJsiJunyBc3XtG6CcSAnsQ4p
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February 13, 2014, 09:53:58 AM
 #99

I'm sorry you feel that way gweedo  Embarrassed. I feel like you've twisted some of our words and have made some assumptions which reflect negatively on us. I could sit here all day and talk about price estimates, workload, staffing and whatnot but I would rather not waste other people's time. I do have some work to do.  Grin

In closing, Twitter may have made a lot of people money but itself as a company is still not out of the red. (Last time I checked, pre-IPO.)  vBulletin is not open sourced, but it is also not a custom piece of software which is what my aim was with that statement. As for language, I assume you are referring to JavaScript? JavaScript just happens to be one of the best supported languages out there in the open source world and has more than one use, even down to the command line level. Forum software is outdated, there is a demand. We are helping to fulfill that demand. I don't know how many people you assume are working on this project. The NDA is in regards to prior clients and not this one. I'm sure you can understand that we want to respect our previous client's wishes. But I will guarantee that the software being built is not a rush job that we release and expect the community to finish. We are open sourcing the code for transparency, for the community to help if they would like to (I hope you find some way to work on the code as well, given your skills.), and as a way for theymos to give back to the community. I hope I have addressed most of your concerns. If you would like to discuss this more in private. I'm open to that idea, and I'm also fine with you documenting and releasing anything we discuss privately. In the mean time, I would rather hold off on these questions to allow other people to satisfy their concerns as well.

Good day, sir.

I am a Epochtalk (New Forum Software) Developer.
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February 13, 2014, 09:55:03 AM
 #100

therymos doesn't get forum software designed, matthewmwright holds a press conference claiming fraud, everyone gets out the pitchforks. therymos gets forum software designed, everyone claims fraud, gets out the pitchforks.

are you guys able to design a quantum version of the forum software where they both design and don't design the forum software?  that should allow both groups to be happy.
inb4 You are wrong because you spelled "theymos" wrong
inb4 forum software not designed yet
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