State of Florida attacks Bitcoin

[anth0ny]

Is buying stolen CC numbers a crime? Using the numbers would be but would possession of the numbers be illegal?

It should only be a crime of stupidity once the source of the DB dump is known to AmEx/Visa/MC/Discover. Why? Every time there is a hack of credit card number databases, all the credit card companies have to do is shitcan all the numbers with the merchant field of the transaction showing the hacked merchant. So for example, Target credit card hack: all credit cards with 'Target' charges made to them in the past 60 days, shitcan, issue new card number, 2 weeks later physical card arrives at cardholder's billing address.

Umm, except that they don't do that.

[TheButterZone]

They're complicit? Great.

[erik777]

I found this statement to fit in ironically with the "victimless" part of this thread.  To recap, someone stated earlier in this thread that the victims of drug violence are due to the war on drugs rather than drugs themselves.  

The district attorney, unhappy with the grand jury letting the defendant go on capital murder charges, said:

The self-defense laws in Texas are viewed in the mindset of the actor, not the victim, which allows for tragedies to occur when one party is acting lawfully, but it can be reasonably seen as a threat of deadly force by another. However, the Burleson County Sheriff’s Office would not have been there that day if Mr. Magee had not decided to live a lifestyle of doing and producing illegal drugs in his home. Therefore, we will fully prosecute the drug charges against him. This event should wake the community up that drug crimes are not victimless.

Texas Grand Jury Refuses To Indict Homeowner In Shooting Death Of Sheriff’s Deputy

[justusranvier]

This event should wake the community up that drug crimes are not victimless.

That's hilarious on several levels.

[TheButterZone]

Well that's circular logic at it's finest. Actual logic: No unconstitutional drug law enforcement in the first place equals no unconstitutional drug law enforcers being shot in self-defense as they induce mortal fear in people who have unconstitutionally banned PLANTS in their homes.

[erik777]

I found this statement to fit in ironically with the "victimless" part of this thread.  To recap, someone stated earlier in this thread that the victims of drug violence are due to the war on drugs rather than drugs themselves.  

The district attorney, unhappy with the grand jury letting the defendant go on capital murder charges, said:

The self-defense laws in Texas are viewed in the mindset of the actor, not the victim, which allows for tragedies to occur when one party is acting lawfully, but it can be reasonably seen as a threat of deadly force by another. However, the Burleson County Sheriff’s Office would not have been there that day if Mr. Magee had not decided to live a lifestyle of doing and producing illegal drugs in his home. Therefore, we will fully prosecute the drug charges against him. This event should wake the community up that drug crimes are not victimless.

Texas Grand Jury Refuses To Indict Homeowner In Shooting Death Of Sheriff’s Deputy

The violent shooting you reference would not have occurred if drugs were legal and produced in a safe setting like alcohol.

The cause of the violence is most definitely the war on drugs....that's the nature of war.  The drugs themselves are not the cause of the 10,000+ murders per year in Mexico, or the 500+ murders per year in Chicago.

People working in a black market can't use the legal system to enforce their contracts, so they turn to violence instead.


Prohibition leads to a massive increase in violence and widespread corruption.  We learned this during alcohol prohibition in the 30's, and we're learning it again with drug prohibition in the new millenium.

Being a marijuana case, I completely agree in this case.  It is less harmful than alcohol.  The guy had a gun and a plant that doesn't kill anyone. 

Physically addicting drugs are different, though.  There's good reason to hate their impact -- like death, compulsive stealing, etc,...  Drugs like crack spread like an infection.  They enslave people.  Those who distribute them will have ultimate power. It's hard to imagine legalizing them as being perfectly rosy. How do we balance the destructiveness of the war on drugs with the destructiveness of physically destructive drugs? 

[erik777]

I found this statement to fit in ironically with the "victimless" part of this thread.  To recap, someone stated earlier in this thread that the victims of drug violence are due to the war on drugs rather than drugs themselves.  

The district attorney, unhappy with the grand jury letting the defendant go on capital murder charges, said:

The self-defense laws in Texas are viewed in the mindset of the actor, not the victim, which allows for tragedies to occur when one party is acting lawfully, but it can be reasonably seen as a threat of deadly force by another. However, the Burleson County Sheriff’s Office would not have been there that day if Mr. Magee had not decided to live a lifestyle of doing and producing illegal drugs in his home. Therefore, we will fully prosecute the drug charges against him. This event should wake the community up that drug crimes are not victimless.

Texas Grand Jury Refuses To Indict Homeowner In Shooting Death Of Sheriff’s Deputy

The violent shooting you reference would not have occurred if drugs were legal and produced in a safe setting like alcohol.

The cause of the violence is most definitely the war on drugs....that's the nature of war.  The drugs themselves are not the cause of the 10,000+ murders per year in Mexico, or the 500+ murders per year in Chicago.

People working in a black market can't use the legal system to enforce their contracts, so they turn to violence instead.


Prohibition leads to a massive increase in violence and widespread corruption.  We learned this during alcohol prohibition in the 30's, and we're learning it again with drug prohibition in the new millenium.

Being a marijuana case, I completely agree in this case.  It is less harmful than alcohol.  The guy had a gun and a plant that doesn't kill anyone. 

Physically addicting drugs are different, though.  There's good reason to hate their impact -- like death, compulsive stealing, etc,...  Drugs like crack spread like an infection.  They enslave people.  Those who distribute them will have ultimate power. It's hard to imagine legalizing them as being perfectly rosy. How do we balance the destructiveness of the war on drugs with the destructiveness of physically destructive drugs? 

Drugs like crack should be legal and treated just like alcohol or nicotene (physically addictive and destructive drugs with much better marketing).

The problem of compulsive stealing you mention is another byproduct of the war on drugs.  The crack price is artificially high due to it's illegality, which leads addicts to commit crimes to afford the drug-war-inflated-prices.

Spending money on better drug education and treatment is proven over and over again to be 5 to 7 times more effective than spending the same money on enforcement and incarceration:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/buyers/doitwork.html

The only people benefiting from the war on drugs are private prison companies, law enforcement, drug dealers, the rest of the prison-industrial complex.  The rest of society suffers as a result of politicians declaring war on 1000's of years of human nature.

To be sure, I don't believe in incarcerating users.  They need rehabilitation, not incarceration.  But, I originally viewed the war on drugs as trying to keep them out of our country.  In your model, you create a legal import business, presumably highly taxed.  At some point, taxes get so high, that tax evasion becomes an issue.  I remember that the document accusing Shem was signed by the Internal Revenue Service, IIRC.  Doesn't tax evasion become an issue?

An, let's not pretend there won't be high taxes.  Just look at cigarettes.  The non-tax price is under $1 per pack. 
 

[TheButterZone]

Indeed, what are the most common products stolen in convenience store armed robberies, along with the money? If you watch enough CCTV videos, it seems to be cigarettes, then alcohol.

But how do you deal with armed robbers? You shoot them. Or you obey "gun control" and get shot/stabbed/beaten yourself because you were legally effectively defenseless.

[erik777]

You wouldn't have meth kingpins like Zhenli Ye Gon paying $0 in taxes on their piles of $207 million dollars:

The issue I'm raising isn't people not paying taxes.  

The IRS replaces the war on drugs.  People think of the Charlie Shrem case as drug related because of silk road.  But, the agent accusing him and signing the filing with the court a "special agent with Internal Revenue Service".  

Isn't this the moral of the story of Al Capone?  

"regulations" and "war" can be used interchangeably.
  


  

[BiiJack]

They don't what to catch rapers,murders & thieves they want to mess with the citizens.

[polarhei]

Regardless where, People like to grab these infomation at the lowest cost by trying to attack famous exchanges, or limit it while they do in umbra.

[anth0ny]

You wouldn't have meth kingpins like Zhenli Ye Gon paying $0 in taxes on their piles of $207 million dollars:
[image]

The issue I'm raising isn't people not paying taxes.  

The IRS replaces the war on drugs.  People think of the Charlie Shrem case as drug related because of silk road.  But, the agent accusing him and signing the filing with the court a "special agent with Internal Revenue Service".  

Isn't this the moral of the story of Al Capone?  

"regulations" and "war" can be used interchangeably.

So we shouldn't rescue the gal from the burning building because she has high cholesterol and will probably die from a heart attack eventually anyway?

The war on success needs to be ended just as well as the war on drugs. But let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

People who say we should legalize drugs and tax them need to be corrected (if you look above, I've personally already done so once). But people who say we should legalize drugs and don't mention taxes, don't need to be criticized.

[darkmule]

Propaganda is not argument.

[Tirapon]

I found this statement to fit in ironically with the "victimless" part of this thread.  To recap, someone stated earlier in this thread that the victims of drug violence are due to the war on drugs rather than drugs themselves.  

The district attorney, unhappy with the grand jury letting the defendant go on capital murder charges, said:

The self-defense laws in Texas are viewed in the mindset of the actor, not the victim, which allows for tragedies to occur when one party is acting lawfully, but it can be reasonably seen as a threat of deadly force by another. However, the Burleson County Sheriff’s Office would not have been there that day if Mr. Magee had not decided to live a lifestyle of doing and producing illegal drugs in his home. Therefore, we will fully prosecute the drug charges against him. This event should wake the community up that drug crimes are not victimless.

Texas Grand Jury Refuses To Indict Homeowner In Shooting Death Of Sheriff’s Deputy

The violent shooting you reference would not have occurred if drugs were legal and produced in a safe setting like alcohol.

The cause of the violence is most definitely the war on drugs....that's the nature of war.  The drugs themselves are not the cause of the 10,000+ murders per year in Mexico, or the 500+ murders per year in Chicago.

People working in a black market can't use the legal system to enforce their contracts, so they turn to violence instead.


Prohibition leads to a massive increase in violence and widespread corruption.  We learned this during alcohol prohibition in the 30's, and we're learning it again with drug prohibition in the new millenium.

Its funny how throughout history, whenever there are wars, there are parties with particular interests profiting immensely from the conflict. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about a war in the conventional sense, where young men are sent to the other side of the world to kill brown people, and in turn risk getting killed themselves, or whether the war is completely stupid, against something as abstract as a chemical structure, which also leads to casualties of war i.e. young people, also quite often brown, locked up in prisons and more or less having their lives destroyed, all for the sake of profits.

[BitTheCoin]

Is buying stolen CC numbers a crime? Using the numbers would be but would possession of the numbers be illegal?

Possession of stolen property is against the law.

[darkmule]

People who say we should legalize drugs and tax them need to be corrected (if you look above, I've personally already done so once). But people who say we should legalize drugs and don't mention taxes, don't need to be criticized.

We don't have this choice, though.  If something gets legalized, it is pretty much a matter of course that it will also be taxed, just like every other form of economic activity.  Now, perhaps this isn't the way it should be, but that's the way it is.  In any event, allowed but taxed is an incremental step in the right direction, and is preferable to prohibited.

So if we had prohibited, allowed but taxed, and allowed and untaxed on our menu of choices, the latter might be the best option.  But we don't.  In fact, it would be damn near a miracle if we even had "allowed but taxed" on our menu.

[anth0ny]

People who say we should legalize drugs and tax them need to be corrected (if you look above, I've personally already done so once). But people who say we should legalize drugs and don't mention taxes, don't need to be criticized.

We don't have this choice, though.  If something gets legalized, it is pretty much a matter of course that it will also be taxed, just like every other form of economic activity.  Now, perhaps this isn't the way it should be, but that's the way it is.  In any event, allowed but taxed is an incremental step in the right direction, and is preferable to prohibited.

So if we had prohibited, allowed but taxed, and allowed and untaxed on our menu of choices, the latter might be the best option.  But we don't.  In fact, it would be damn near a miracle if we even had "allowed but taxed" on our menu.

I'm not sure what you mean. Economic activity is taxed whether it's legal or not.

[erik777]

Is buying stolen CC numbers a crime? Using the numbers would be but would possession of the numbers be illegal?

Possession of stolen property is against the law.

I'm not saying possessing stolen credit card #'s isn't against the law.  But, most information laws are not based on theft laws.  Copyright infringement, for example, is infringement, not theft.  Judges have become upset when lawyers begin to use the word "theft" in their courts, because legally, copyright infringement has nothing to do with theft.     

Theft is based on the assumption that someone lost a possession.  If your bike is stolen, you no longer have a bike.  Our theft laws are based on physical possessions.  Only recently have we coined the term "intellectual property" do describe man made information based concepts.  That term is not really embedded in our law as property.  It is usually defined as a "right" not property.  Copyright infringement is, in theory, an infringement of one's right to limit copying.  It is not theft.  Patent infringement is even more abstract as it defines a right to limit the creation of objects from concepts rather than defining the right to create an exact replica of an object, like a book.

The ability to purchase product and services using information, such as credit card numbers, is a relatively new concept in law compared to our theft laws.  To be sure, using that credit card to steal money is still likely stealing, because that is money, which is pretty well cemented in theft laws.  But, merely possessing a copy of a number is not theft.  In fact, it is very legal to have a copy of someone's credit card number if they shared it with you.  If it weren't, it would be nearly impossible to accept credit cards online, let alone store them for customer convenience. 




 

[roslinpl]

Propaganda is not argument.

sure it is not.
But propaganda is a seed of destruction.

[anth0ny]

I'm not saying possessing stolen credit card #'s isn't against the law.  But, most information laws are not based on theft laws.  Copyright infringement, for example, is infringement, not theft.  Judges have become upset when lawyers begin to use the word "theft" in their courts, because legally, copyright infringement has nothing to do with theft.      

Theft of credit card information is more like theft of trade secrets than copyright infringement.

That said, I'm not saying that possession of stolen credit card numbers is against the law. I couldn't find any law against possession in itself, only possession with intent to defraud.