OccupyLA on 10/1 !! We will be there in Bitcoin Attire! Financial Revolution!

[Gabi]

Hmm.  Slogans for Occupy <X> protests.

How about these?

"I'm pissed at my dad, but he isn't here, so I'm going to antagonize some cops instead!"

"I have $100,000 in student loans for my sociology degree, and I don't want to accept responsibility for my poor decisions!"

"It isn't fair that other people became successful while I was wasting my life!"

I dislike our current monetary system as much as the next guy (actually, more than most, I'd say), but these protests aren't about that, and even if they were, they wouldn't accomplish anything anyway.  If you can create a few new bitcoin enthusiasts, great.  Or if you can pick up a naive coed by showing her that you care about "the issues", that's fine too.  But don't fool yourself into thinking that these events are anything but group displays of social posturing.

You have the worldview of a small child.

Well, that or a member of the College Republicans club, but it's kind of hard to tell the two apart.

and you responded like the small child you are  just because some people believe these protests serve no purpose other then to "be cool" doesn't give you the right to be the child you are.

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[Gabi]

I do apologize if my post was not to your standards.

Perhaps we have different definitions of "success."  If I steal a million dollars from society and build a beautiful park, is that a "successful implementation" of a park?  Does the fact that the beautiful park is desirable give me the moral right to coercively obtain the resources with which to create it?

Taxes aren't theft and not having large amounts of the population die from easily treatable medical conditions for a few percentage points of profit is definitely a 'success'.

Hmmm I see your point.

There is another easily treatable medical condition that tens of millions are suffering from, known as starvation. Might it be "successful" to take a few percentage points of profit from your bank account and buy bread for them? Surely you are quite wealthy compared to such people, and their need must surely be greater than your desire for your next Blu-ray, case of beer, or book? How much did you spend on your last pair of shoes, and how many days' worth of food could that have purchased for those truly in need? How much have you spent on fuel just for the purpose of air-conditioning your car or house? The computer upon which you typed your message... might it have been more successful to use that money to feed the famished... suffering so unjustly from their easily treatable medical condition?

Or should those few percentage points of profit in your bank account not be included in the taking? Only those wealthier than you ought to surrender their resources? Because from where you're standing, THEY are the rich ones.  But... it does seem that you are far wealthier than the starving Ethiopian, and in terms of comparative lifestyle you are much closer to those rich you despise than the Ethiopian is to you.

Where is the greater wealth gap... and how might we go about closing it? Let's take a look at the extravagances of your lifestyle and I'm sure we can find many ways to be successful.

It's always fun to enjoy successes with other peoples' things, isn't it?

The image i posted apply to you too.

Go check WHY ethiopian are poor and hungry. Then you will discover things like war lords, criminals etc etc. You donate money? Nice, they buy more weapons and don't give a fuck to the people dying.

Seriously guys, if you want to troll, learn to do it in a decent way.

[evoorhees]

I do apologize if my post was not to your standards.

Perhaps we have different definitions of "success."  If I steal a million dollars from society and build a beautiful park, is that a "successful implementation" of a park?  Does the fact that the beautiful park is desirable give me the moral right to coercively obtain the resources with which to create it?

Taxes aren't theft and not having large amounts of the population die from easily treatable medical conditions for a few percentage points of profit is definitely a 'success'.

Hmmm I see your point.

There is another easily treatable medical condition that tens of millions are suffering from, known as starvation. Might it be "successful" to take a few percentage points of profit from your bank account and buy bread for them? Surely you are quite wealthy compared to such people, and their need must surely be greater than your desire for your next Blu-ray, case of beer, or book? How much did you spend on your last pair of shoes, and how many days' worth of food could that have purchased for those truly in need? How much have you spent on fuel just for the purpose of air-conditioning your car or house? The computer upon which you typed your message... might it have been more successful to use that money to feed the famished... suffering so unjustly from their easily treatable medical condition?

Or should those few percentage points of profit in your bank account not be included in the taking? Only those wealthier than you ought to surrender their resources? Because from where you're standing, THEY are the rich ones.  But... it does seem that you are far wealthier than the starving Ethiopian, and in terms of comparative lifestyle you are much closer to those rich you despise than the Ethiopian is to you.

Where is the greater wealth gap... and how might we go about closing it? Let's take a look at the extravagances of your lifestyle and I'm sure we can find many ways to be successful.

It's always fun to enjoy successes with other peoples' things, isn't it?

The image i posted apply to you too.

Go check WHY ethiopian are poor and hungry. Then you will discover things like war lords, criminals etc etc. You donate money? Nice, they buy more weapons and don't give a fuck to the people dying.

Seriously guys, if you want to troll, learn to do it in a decent way.

Gabi - you missed my point entirely. And no, the image you posted does not apply to me.

[Gabi]

Well to close the gap with the poor countries we need to do like in lybia, that imply a rebelling population and heavy military support to defeat the local dictators (that are always super rich due to drugs, exploting natural resources etc etc)

And that is like a bit more expensive than buying bread for them.

[tvbcof]

To the folks who've been participating in the philosophical discussions an this thread:

I'm a socialist.  One thing I expect that socialist and libertarians would agree with is that I am NOT a socialist.  I'm fine with that.

I've read all of your comments to me and to one another.  I have agreement with some of the statements, disagreement with some, respect for some arguments, and not so much for others.

I've appreciated enlightening conversations and hope we can get back to them sometime.  For now I am planning to bow out and focus on trying to get Bitcoin known to as many people as possible no matter who they are.  I think that we all recognize that the protests are a good opportunity to do this.

[Disposition]

I think Yifu put this well when I told him about this thread,

"I'll support when I see action other wise I'm too busy just chit chat, there's only so little "real" projects in waves of talks on the forum that have no basis and there are no actions taken. I'm going to ignore this until a plan is be lay out and action have been taken towards a concrete path to a clear goal. Petty differences are really so irrelevant to this cause."

[MemoryDealers]

I do apologize if my post was not to your standards.

Perhaps we have different definitions of "success."  If I steal a million dollars from society and build a beautiful park, is that a "successful implementation" of a park?  Does the fact that the beautiful park is desirable give me the moral right to coercively obtain the resources with which to create it?

Taxes aren't theft and not having large amounts of the population die from easily treatable medical conditions for a few percentage points of profit is definitely a 'success'.

FAtlas,

I'm curious.
Every time I see a post of yours on the forum,  you are very anti-Bitcoin,  and very pro-government involvement in every post.
You seem to spend lots of time on this forum where most members have a very different viewpoint than yourself.

I would like to know if you are being paid by an organization to spread your anti-Bitcoin, anti-freedom message on this forum,   or if you just spend this much time because it is entertaining for you on a personal level.

I don't mean this as a personal attack in any way,  I am just curious if spreading Bitcoin negativity is your job.

[FAtlas]

FAtlas,

I'm curious.
Every time I see a post of yours on the forum,  you are very anti-Bitcoin,  and very pro-government involvement in every post.
You seem to spend lots of time on this forum where most members have a very different viewpoint than yourself.

I would like to know if you are being paid by an organization to spread your anti-Bitcoin, anti-freedom message on this forum,   or if you just spend this much time because it is entertaining for you on a personal level.

I don't mean this as a personal attack in any way,  I am just curious if spreading Bitcoin negativity is your job.

My interest is both academic, with a major focus on Accounting and a minor in Economics, and for entertainment value, since there's a really fun mix of insanity and stupidity around these parts.  Honestly, you guys are starting to get a little dull on both fronts, though.

I'm not sure how you find my posts to be 'anti-freedom', though?  That just sounds like some like some bullshit you made up.

[JonHind]

I'm not sure how you find my posts to be 'anti-freedom', though?  That just sounds like some like some bullshit you made up.

The definition of freedom is in the eye of the beholder.

Because you have openly challenged a lot of their libertarian views, you are now deemed by 'them' as being an 'enemy' to their 'freedom'. Many other cults display similar tendencies when non believers criticise their beliefs.

[MemoryDealers]

I think it is rather clear for those who spend the time to think about it.

Libertarians are happy to leave other people with the freedom to say "no" I don't want to participate in XX activity.

Statists,  want to take away my freedom to say "no",  I don't want to participate in XX activity.

I'm happy to allow Atlas to do whatever he wants as long as I don't have to participate.

Unfortunately,  Atlas would advocate that force and violence be used against me to compel me participate in whatever government plan he is advocating.

Because of people who share Atlas' world view, I don't have the "freedom" to say "no",  I won't participate with social security,  medicare,  public schools,  socialized medicine, etc.

I think it is clear who is advocating freedom,  and who is advocating compulsion.

Bitcoin tips the balance of power in favor of those who value freedom.
That is why so many libertarian types are attracted to Bitcoin.  (Myself included)

[WiseOldOwl]

I'm not sure how you find my posts to be 'anti-freedom', though?  That just sounds like some like some bullshit you made up.

The definition of freedom is in the eye of the beholder.

Because you have openly challenged a lot of their libertarian views, you are now deemed by 'them' as being an 'enemy' to their 'freedom'. Many other cults display similar tendencies when non believers criticise their beliefs.

That's funny, to try to sum up libertarians as a cult. Good try though, in that case every gathering with purpose is a cult.
The best part is we discuss real world issues, while the hippy/socialist/communist cults out there worship love and peace, two extremely difficult to define terms that are almost non-applicable to govt. and important decision making.

I have debated here and other places past the point of wanting to teach you poor misguided people what this country is based on. I have proven myself beyond a doubt, and the things that I fight for are right in line with what America was intended to be. Not some communistic fairy tale that gets too real when we get mass murdered.

So here is what I say,
Ya if you oppose what is clearly, obviously, logically, certainly, the movement made by true American patriots trying to "fix" what went wrong with their great country, Then you better duck and run. Because you might as well be invading Long Beach Harbor to me, you are still an enemy. It is just about past the point of talking. These pathetic LARasa groups are going to catch a special hot one from the ruger. I cant believe we dont straight mop them up on sight. They think they are all bad because they have never got a taste, they think Americans are pussy and waiting to be taken over, I have heard them say it themselves out at the rally, with bandanas sunglasses and gloves like they were gonna do something.lol.

Anyways, If any socialist or lib or w/e really wants to further his cause, read a history book and then come join us. Or you will be executed by the time we are done. And thats real.
Sorry to explain it like a mother fucking patriot, but My forefathers would be pissed i havent killed some of these anti american jokes yet.

LOL, violence from these hippy ravers??? Give me a break, lol. When they throw a bottle or molitov, we fire a .223 at their head.

[evoorhees]

I'm not sure how you find my posts to be 'anti-freedom', though?  That just sounds like some like some bullshit you made up.

The definition of freedom is in the eye of the beholder.

Because you have openly challenged a lot of their libertarian views, you are now deemed by 'them' as being an 'enemy' to their 'freedom'. Many other cults display similar tendencies when non believers criticise their beliefs.

A reasonable definition of freedom is: not using coercion, theft, fraud, or violence to advance one's goals. It's unfortunate that advocating such a message elicits the label of "cult."

Seems to me that it might be more reasonable to use the cult label when describing people who worship flags, badges, and the scripture of legislatures as moral truth. Put the average libertarian next to the average police office, soldier, IRS agent, Congressman, or "Supreme Court" justice. Observe their codes of conduct, their rituals, and the the meaning they derive from symbols, authority figures, and protocol. Observe who tells you how to act, dress, speak, and obey. Observe who demands conformity and obedience.

Which side exhibits traits of individualism, and which of collectivism? Which side should more properly be described as the cult?

[WiseOldOwl]

Violence is part of how america was formed, and for situations in this dire of need, our forefathers specifically stated we are to solve the problem through violence against the corrupt.

THAT IS WHAT I ADVOCATE NOW. Smoke those that oppose, whoever is left wins.

Little Mad this morning*

[evoorhees]

THAT IS WHAT I ADVOCATE NOW. Smoke those that oppose, whoever is left wins.

Wow that's the very opposite of libertarian. Hope you're joking.

[WiseOldOwl]

Yah the thing is,
That we arent going to solve our libertarian country's infection by other groups without some type of violence. If they are not scared to try and fuck us, what would stop them?

[WiseOldOwl]

There are a bunch of groups, and i mean a whole bunch, that use American society everyday to try and progress their cause of destroying america from the inside out. Their are plenty of races that love America and live here already, but the bottom line is mexican activist groups need to be slapped down by the hand of god, or my strap. They openly advocate all sorts of bullshit on our streets, they are illegal criminals from another country, they bring in heroin, arms, meth, prostitution, etc., and when we catch them infultrating our country, we give them a sack lunch and an air conditioned ride back to the start line to try again. Most countries execute on site for that kind of thing.

Anyone who wants something else for this country other than the original purpose, will need to experience some violence to put them in their place, or we can repatriate them to their father land of choice.

Im done ranting, I realized that it is not my job to convince people who cannot be convinced. You cannot teach calculus to someone not capable. It is more likely my job to eliminate enemies of my land, its just kinda scary and difficult these days, and not very many people are actual American's so they wouldnt understand.

[WiseOldOwl]

Had some guy email me privately because he uses a lot of cock/pussy terminology so he most assuredly didnt want to make himself out as a juvenile here.
He thinks Im racist, lol. I have friends that are black,brown, yellow, everything. If it were SOME englanders doing what SOME mexicans are doing id say kill them too.
Also, I gave him my neighborhood to see if he comes. He
1. assumes i am old lol
2. assumes i am someone who does their talking through the net lol
3. assumes i wont break each finger off and tickle his face with them lol.


oh here is his IP if anyone is with me and gets bored.
Rochester, NY, UNITED STATES or Williamsport, PA 74.43.53.20

[WiseOldOwl]

He also said i am psycho,
I have spent my whole life here. If you threaten me,  my home, or my country, I might come off as "psycho".

[evoorhees]

There are a bunch of groups, and i mean a whole bunch, that use American society everyday to try and progress their cause of destroying america from the inside out. Their are plenty of races that love America and live here already, but the bottom line is mexican activist groups need to be slapped down by the hand of god, or my strap. They openly advocate all sorts of bullshit on our streets, they are illegal criminals from another country, they bring in heroin, arms, meth, prostitution, etc., and when we catch them infultrating our country, we give them a sack lunch and an air conditioned ride back to the start line to try again. Most countries execute on site for that kind of thing.

Anyone who wants something else for this country other than the original purpose, will need to experience some violence to put them in their place, or we can repatriate them to their father land of choice.

Im done ranting, I realized that it is not my job to convince people who cannot be convinced. You cannot teach calculus to someone not capable. It is more likely my job to eliminate enemies of my land, its just kinda scary and difficult these days, and not very many people are actual American's so they wouldnt understand.

So America is your land, is it? All of it? Even that part of the land which is my private property? If I want to hire a Mexican at my private business, or rent him an apartment on my private property, are you going to tell me I can't do so, until he files the right paperwork with your preferred bureaucratic office and gets their permission?

What if he wants to do some heroin with me? Who are you to tell us what we can do with our own bodies? And maybe he has a lady friend who likes selling sex services... what sort of tyrant are you to infringe on her liberties? And here you go ranting about your guns, but you are upset that an immigrant might have a gun? Are you one of those people who thinks private individuals must register their firearms with the government? How very un-Second Amendment of you.

You sound awfully statist, quite frankly. In fact, anyone who really cared about liberty, instead of some silly homogeneous nationalism, might perceive you as the very type of person who is "destroying America from the inside out."

Here's a tip - stop worrying about the Mexicans. Start worrying about the government itself. Don't like Mexicans getting free healthcare? Me neither - but the problem isn't the Mexican, it's the free health care. Don't like that the Mexicans are selling drugs? Me neither, the gas stations should be allowed to sell them - but absurd prohibitionist laws have forced drug sales into a violent underground. Don't like that Mexicans are taking up your school resources? Me neither... how about we end public schools? Or do you support that kind of socialism?

Do you salute the flag, or do you salute liberty? The former gains power only at the expense of the latter... so think hard on this question.

[Cryptoman]

I'm not sure how you find my posts to be 'anti-freedom', though?  That just sounds like some like some bullshit you made up.

The definition of freedom is in the eye of the beholder.

Because you have openly challenged a lot of their libertarian views, you are now deemed by 'them' as being an 'enemy' to their 'freedom'. Many other cults display similar tendencies when non believers criticise their beliefs.

A reasonable definition of freedom is: not using coercion, theft, fraud, or violence to advance one's goals. It's unfortunate that advocating such a message elicits the label of "cult."

Seems to me that it might be more reasonable to use the cult label when describing people who worship flags, badges, and the scripture of legislatures as moral truth. Put the average libertarian next to the average police office, soldier, IRS agent, Congressman, or "Supreme Court" justice. Observe their codes of conduct, their rituals, and the the meaning they derive from symbols, authority figures, and protocol. Observe who tells you how to act, dress, speak, and obey. Observe who demands conformity and obedience.

Which side exhibits traits of individualism, and which of collectivism? Which side should more properly be described as the cult?

Actually, there are both "positive" and "negative" concepts of liberty.  Negative liberty is the absence of constraints.  Positive liberty is the ability to acquire one's needs and wants.  To guarantee negative liberty, you merely need to not interfere with others.  This is the common libertarian view of liberty.  To guarantee positive liberty, society must often intervene in some manner to alleviate the limitations placed on people for one reason or another.  For example, you can't reach your full potential if you are ill and cannot afford medical care.   I believe that we need to consider both positive and negative concepts of liberty and work as a society to increase both.  However, I don't believe in coercive means of increasing positive liberty as this only decreases negative liberty.  We need to become a more charitable society, but this has to happen at the grassroots level and not be forcibly imposed by a central authority.  Forced wealth redistribution only pisses people off and makes them less charitable and less productive.  It is not the way forward.  For more on positive versus negative liberty, see here: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/