Require a small amount of merit to become a Junior Member

[hilariousetc]

Not sure if anyone has requested this or not before, but I think we should consider adding a small merit requirement to become a Junior Member. Even if it was just a one merit requirement I think it would help a lot, because far too many spammers and spambots are getting the rank and once they hit that they can't be nuked. We're getting hit by a lot of these 'haiku' bots as people keep calling them (though I think they're more like doge bots: riveting business, spotless design, much wow):

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I wish you success.
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Those are all Junior Members and their posts all follow the same format. There's also hundreds of them. They should be nuked as deleting their posts one by one is incredibly time consuming. Alternatively, allowing Globals or something to nuke Juniors would also help.

[TheBeardedBaby]

It has been discussed earlier one or two times*, but since the situation has changed the last few months, it OK to open the subject once again.

*reference >
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3307636.0

Most of the spammers and bots has advanced to Jr. members. Bots are still spamming with meaningless posts all the time. Thanks to LoyceV and the Mods, we have reported just yesterday more than 50 accounts related to the PrimeCoreICO spam case.

Cases like this pop-up every week.

[DdmrDdmr]

Just to get some perspective on current numbers, both of current Jr. Members and Newbies (Jr. Members to be), the merit they have been awarded is:

Number of Jr. Members with sMerit awarded: 4.256

Code:

MeritReceived	nUsers	%
1	1882	44,22%
2	758	17,81%
3	412	9,68%
>3	1204	28,29%

Number of Newbies with sMerit awarded: 1.688

Code:

MeritReceived	nUsers	%
1	956	56,64%
2	290	17,18%
3	103	6,10%
>3	339	20,08%

So with the current available data, the above would be the potential Jr. Base. Drastic reduction as it may be, requiring 1 sMerit for a Jr. Member is not that difficult to obtain by legit methods conceptually, but not that many do yet. If would also have a side-effect on the black-market and merit abuse/merit begging areas, boosting their activity.

The resulting Jr. Member base would really be minute though. If we take a look at the data provided by @mazdafunsun (see Truth about bitcointalk users 2.0 + Bitcointalk user analysis), the Newbie base is of over 400k users, and the Jr Member base of 78k users. That is taking into account the first 2M users (there are nearly 2,26M users currently), but not distinguishing between active and inactive users. The merited proportion is minute in comparison, so it would be virtually redefining value and volume of the Jr. Member level and swamping the newbie rank.

Perhaps it would be easier to ask for a change in nuking capabilities and extend it to Jr. Members too.

[Jet Cash]

I don't think a single merit requirement is of any significance, it's too easy to feed into an alt and bot network. I've mad a number of suggestions in the past, and some of them are.

- Newby thread starting restricted to an intro and an account recovery board. Newbies and juniors restricted to beginners and associated boards.
- Merits associated with posts deleted by a mod, or by  the poster should be removed.
- No merits for trading, bounty, ICO or similar posts.

I think there were a load more, but that will do for the moment.

[seoincorporation]

<...>

Yep, I've already proposed to need 5 merits to become Jr Member, for it will ease the number of shitposter or bots joining bounties and spamming all over the forum.

I don't think a single merit requirement is of any significance, it's too easy to feed into an alt and bot network. I've mad a number of suggestions in the past, and some of them are.

- Newby thread starting restricted to an intro and an account recovery board. Newbies and juniors restricted to beginners and associated boards.
- Merits associated with posts deleted by a mod, or by  the poster should be removed.
- No merits for trading, bounty, ICO or similar posts.

I think there were a load more, but that will do for the moment.

Yeh, we talked about something similar weeks ago, in my case the proposal was about a newbie jail in where they need some number of merits to become junior and leave the jail. Since Theymos doesn't seem to like the idea (probably because the last time it was a total failure), maybe the jail is not necessary.
Even if the jail is too much, by asking for some merits to become junior probably it will be easy to get rid of many shitposters, at least on the bounties. The issue also is that many bounties are accepting newbies, even brand new users, in their campaigns. So, in addition to the merit implementation for newbies to become junior, I would suggest that the bounties maybe should stop accepting brand new and newbies.
5 merits is a bit of effort, and if you are a "normal" user (considering normal as someone interested in grow-up in here, or at least, interest on the crypto world), you should be able to have them in less than a month. Of course, newbies in a need of merits will create a whole new specimen., the "forever newbie", in substitution of the actuals "forever juniors". So, as far as newbies can join airdrops and bounties, it doesn't have any sense, it is only going to change the name of the specimens.

[Jet Cash]

The issue also is that many bounties are accepting newbies, even brand new users, in their campaigns.

That's why you need to introduce posting restrictions, or to ban bounties.

[The Cryptovator]

If I am correct I hope some one have discuss about it. Any it's better to discuse new topic so admin will able see easily.
Yes there should be require minimum merit to become Jr. Members. Because once people become Jr member's he join signeture campaign and start spamming. There is one more option, should be disable signeture for newbie & Jr. Member or there should be require minimum merit to become Jr. Member. I strongly believe that if implement this than spaming will reduce 80%.
Theymos should consider it asap. Condition is very bad now.

[Joel_Jantsen]

The issue also is that many bounties are accepting newbies, even brand new users, in their campaigns.

That's why you need to introduce posting restrictions, or to ban bounties.

Why "restricting things" and "banning stuff" are the only solutions everyone thinks is perfect? Theymos should start a sub-forum under the domain www.elite.bitcointalk.com where there would be no signatures,no bounties,no marketplaces , just elite posters discussing stuff. Also the sign-up process would be invite basis only.

Theymos should consider it asap. Condition is very bad now.

Condition was always this bad since a few years. You happened to the forum what 2 months back?

[seoincorporation]

Why "restricting things" and "banning stuff" are the only solutions everyone thinks is perfect? Theymos should start a sub-forum under the domain www.elite.bitcointalk.com where there would be no signatures,no bounties,no marketplaces , just elite posters discussing stuff. Also the sign-up process would be invite basis only.

Jajaja, you are absolutely right. Maybe it just desperation, but you know, this is terrible to spend some time in here and to find more and more difficult to engage in a real discussion due to the state of the forum.
The merit system is working, from my point of view, for it absolutely encourages some good members to rank-up and do their best. But, also, there is the well-known spam problem having place, each day worse than the previous one.
We have an average of 500 new users per day. Probably the 90% of them are only seeking to earn some (some others just bots), not to learn or discuss the forum or the crypto world. I agree with some kind of "effort" is necessary for them to can earn something, for actually, the system is out of control, and mostly all the new users are just trying to post whatever, even if they are unable to speak the language.

Now, I don't like "social classes", I don't believe that a new one is strictly worst than and senior member: they are some good new users. But maybe it is time to be realistic. We can try to encourage others to become a good "citizen" in here, to contribute to the forum, and we are doing it by meriting those who try their best. But there is a reality in here: they are few. The ones willing to give a shit are few in comparison with the ones with no interest in the forum but in their "earnings".
As a product, we are all seeing how the boards are getting lost in between bumping-nonsense quotes, and to enroll a good debate is impossible by now in some of them.
So, if by encouraging and meriting the people we have achieved nothing, what can we do? I would like to see a good forum with clean boards with a nice debate, discussion, information, et all in there. But it is not happening (maybe utopic, but why it should be utopic?)
So, what to do, then? I don't like prohibitions too, truly, I don't. But what can be done? To leave the forum to die in between all the crap we have to read every single day?

[Jet Cash]

If you have a business selling holiday homes, and you decide to provide a free lunch for marketing, you need to restrict the people attending. If you allow the room to be filled with people with no money, and who throw the food around and insult the prospective buyers, then you need to get rid of the free loaders, and prevent them returning. Bitcoin Talk is in much the same situation at the moment.

[The Cryptovator]

You happened to the forum what 2 months back?

I don't know what you mean exactly that 2 month backed I joined. But even I joined today I will be able to read 5 years back post. If not deleted. Btw once daily I visit patrol to report spam that time I found there is maximum spaming by Jr. and newbie. So I can say there are joined recently and making very poor thus forum. Even I am not an established member but as a genaral member I share my thought to reduce spam. Actually I always try to prevent spam. Due to spammer sometime we missed some good comments or post.

[bitart]

I would go for the raising of the merit requirement for the juniors AND to let them nuked if needed.
This would solve the merit and the spam problem, parallel. Spammers would need more merits to become juniors (they have to trade/buy/etc. more merits, which costs them money) and those merits would lose if they are nuked when they are juniors. So in the end, farming a spambot army from juniors would cost way much more money than now.

[shilpyh]

So, as far as newbies can join airdrops and bounties, it doesn't have any sense, it is only going to change the name of the specimens.

For telegram, Facebook, twitter, article writing, video creating, blog writing I think it is okay if he/she is brand new or newbie. Because they will not make any marketing on the forum they will do their marketing out of forum. And also same for airdrop. I think only signature should have restrictions nothing else. As only signature has limitation regarding membership ranks. And for your kind information signature cant be considered if they post report or joining. I this case newbie and brand new members are necessary. Because there are not too high number of higher rank member. If there is any more restriction on newbie and jr. member then that will be harmful for bitcointalk.org Already decreasing number of participant on bitcointalk. I want to say if you post bounty on bitcointalk then if you get 100 participant then you will get 1000 if out of bitcointalk. For example bountyhive, bountyportal etc. So, more restriction mans to loose users as a result lose projects. SO no need to make restrictions any more.

Update:
If any more restrictions then existing higher rank members will be benefited for a short time. But for long time all will be looser.

[hilariousetc]

I don't think a single merit requirement is of any significance, it's too easy to feed into an alt and bot network. I've mad a number of suggestions in the past, and some of them are.

It would be very difficult to bot this given the nature of the scarceness of merit, not to mention not worth it for them.

- Newby thread starting restricted to an intro and an account recovery board. Newbies and juniors restricted to beginners and associated boards.

I don't necessarily disagree with some restrictions being put in place on where and what newbies can post, but theymos seems dead against this, and I understand his reasoning. 

- Merits associated with posts deleted by a mod, or by  the poster should be removed.

I agree with this. It seems some people are even deleting their posts once they've been merited. This could be done to cover up abuse. If a post is deleted for whatever reason then the merit should go with it.

- No merits for trading, bounty, ICO or similar posts.

As I mentioned in another thread recently, I don't think excluding bounty threads from being able to receive merit would be bad thing.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

I don't think a single merit requirement is of any significance

I don't know how much of a barrier it'll throw up in practical terms, but getting even a single merit for a lot of these shitposters has proven to be extremely difficult and it would at least be some sort of barrier.  For that reason, I support hilariousandco's suggestion.  He suggested it in another thread and I found it to be a decent idea, since Theymos has ruled out bringing back the newbie jail. 

If it was 5 merits, that'd be damn near impossible for most noobs, but then again ranking up shouldn't be easy anymore, nor should people be obsessing about it.  But they are, and we all know the reason why.

[InvoKing]

I already opened a topic in meta 2 months ago https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3775593 and theymos made a comment in it https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3775593.msg37201114#msg37201114

[vphasitha01]

I think everything is comparative and there is no such a ideal system. If we look into few months back, we all know how much spamming and how much of new accounts have been created only for Bounties and Airdrops( actually I don't have that data at the moment  but hoping "DdmrDdmr" have those numbers). So instead of all banning things which everyone talked, what "Theymos" suggested was introduction of "Merit system". I think now most of the members are getting agreed with this new system and what impact it has been done to the forum when it comes to the spamming and shitposting. But that system also need few tweaks too like getting strong actions regarding Merit abuse scenarios.

The thing I didn't get is why admins allowing to create Alt accounts which I believed one of the major reason for spammers and shitposters to allowing to spam-fest with  numbers game(most of the time bots) So I think time has came to review that decision again.

Finally we can't create a ideal system for even Bitcointalk. But it's about how much and how far we can go for controlling the spam issue. It is better if admins can do some periodical review regarding spam statistics of forum posts, accounts and introducing new regulations or amedments accordingly.

[DdmrDdmr]

<...>If we look into few months back, we all know how much spamming and how much of new accounts have been created only for Bounties and Airdrops( actually I don't have that data at the moment  but hoping "DdmrDdmr" have those numbers).<...>

No such luck I’m afraid. The core information included in practically every analysis on this forum has Merit as the driver. This is due both to interest, and to practical reasons (limited scope): the official data files provided by the forum are the merit.txt file and the trust.txt files. Anything else has to be scraped from the forum webpages themselves.

In order to analyse accounts heavily related to bounties and airdrops, we would need to study the whole set of forum active accounts (not just the merited subset), and then for each account go through their posts. Scraping all this data is an immense task and non-trivial. Recently @mazdafunsun has scraped 2M profiles and vod does too in his BPIP project, but I don’t know anyone who downloads all the messages for all active users (I did download once all merited message content, but that is obviously non coincidental with bounties and airdrops, and was rather a pain with the software I’m using).

Some sites that clone Bitcointalk have managed to download a lot of our messages to give them a solid appearance, so it’s not impossible.

Note: Once upon a time (not too long ago) theymos opened a thread on other raw files that we would like to have ( Additional data dumps? ). That is really the key for moving further and being able to concentrate on providing information and not scraping data from the website (at least from the outside).

[KWH]

Not sure if anyone has requested this or not before, but I think we should consider adding a small merit requirement to become a Junior Member. Even if it was just a one merit requirement I think it would help a lot, because far too many spammers and spambots are getting the rank and once they hit that they can't be nuked. We're getting hit by a lot of these 'haiku' bots as people keep calling them (though I think they're more like doge bots: riveting business, spotless design, much wow):

....snip.....



Those are all Junior Members and their posts all follow the same format. There's also hundreds of them. They should be nuked as deleting their posts one by one is incredibly time consuming. Alternatively, allowing Globals or something to nuke Juniors would also help.

I would fully support that, things are really out of hand.

[LoyceV]

Déjà vu, but it deserves it's own thread indeed. Please implement this!

Earlier today, I was listing spam accounts that post similar patterns. It think it's mainly bump bots that randomly select some phrases, and turn them into a sentence. Some of them could be humans who don't speak English and just copy text.
The worst bots include synonyms and homograph attacks in their posts, and I've seen similar spambots quickly adjust their spam when they get caught. They'll just become harder to find in an automated process.

There's also hundreds of them. They should be nuked

While just banning "a few" of the Newbie spammers I listed, BitRentX ran out of nukes:

@sapta: let me know when you're ready for more, I can keep you busy all day

Aaaand, there goes my limit. I'll look into it again later tomorrow if there's some more countries to nuke left.

I didn't know there is such a limit for Mods. That means I can entertain more than one Mod, just nuking Newbies.
It doesn't feel right that a spammer can create more accounts than a Mod can ban. That means it's a lost cause.

I think 3 things are needed
1. A minimum of even 1 Merit for Jr. Members. There will be some Merit trading, but at least it puts a limit on the current unlimited number of accounts that can reach this level. 5 Merit would probably be more effective in restricting their numbers.
2. No more signature for Newbies, so they can't just spam for some ICO tokens.
3. Newbies and probably Jr. Members too should no longer be able to bump threads. They can post, but the thread won't move to the top.
I think #3 is the most important one, as the bump bots are the worst spammers.

I just checked only a few phrases from the OP. These phrases were posted by the following Newbies in the past 4 days (note that it includes quotes and they shouldn't all be nuked without manual checking):
nice and nice
     1. Green Brandon
     2. FunkKeith
     3. Kelly Niwa
     4. Ward Bechma
     5. Enzfesmiddtim
     6. David-Powell
     7. Jerry Aguilera

Waiting for something more amusing
     1. Kazhama-Sinrie
     2. TsacSonjea
     3. Keyprovynsea
     4. Cysgicessscor
     5. JoannFen
     6. Lingrigeto
     7. StephensKatie
     8. JerardoSh
     9. Schorfheide-Terry
    10. Restringprollu

I wish you success
     1. dhon19
     2. lexx8217
     3. Hacivat
     4. Xanaxer
     5. kalamiotis
     6. Pirani93T
     7. vidy
     8. smiletoken
     9. polok1234
    10. goga69
    11. ClanPartisan
    12. buicong1996
    13. aboali2020
    14. polat M
    15. jamee03
    16. mnusdoh
    17. Djon64
    18. zzmb61
    19. khrishh74
    20. thomasdra
    21. PhillipTh
    22. ShashiMil
    23. Collins Jessica
    24. Songz Muri
    25. NickRo
    26. Luiporpieper
    27. NygelGoto
    28. paydifi
    29. StephanieAsh
    30. yazanyazoon
    31. taymen
    32. Marta Steczkowska
    33. JohnnyLeGrand
    34. CryptoJuan08
    35. evgenij69302
    36. canibor
    37. bluebkdn
    38. Mr.Shahab
    39. wenxue1988
    40. icosbull
    41. ntinakarras

remarkable trading fees
     1. arrado
     2. Songz Muri
     3. Anlachinald