Mt.Gox Multi-plaintiff Suit

[TurboK]

Those of you with BTC in Gox, and want them out at higher then $123 per coin, you can get them out now via https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/ at ~0.45 per bitcoin. And you get them now. Just FYI for those who don't want to risk it.

Nice, thanks!

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[repentance]

If a Japanese or American court orders MtGox not to enable withdrawals of BTC or fiat until they can prove they can cover all customers' deposits, then that is what MtGox will do. Someone just needs to convince a court to make that order. I would be shocked if a good lawyer couldn't make that case given that the collapse in price on MtGox is universally attributed to fear that they're not solvent.

MtGox may comply with an order from a Japanese court, but based on the Bitcoinica experience they're not going to comply with orders of foreign courts unless they have assets located within the jurisdiction of those courts -which at this stage seems to be Japan and Poland.

People need to remember that they're already embroiled in existing legal actions (both lawsuits and investigations related to money laundering).  Regulators could shut them down at any moment even if they are solvent and other legal actions could drive them out of business long before there's a judgement on any new lawsuit.

It's worrying that Mark is unwilling to make a public statement reassuring people that MtGox has sufficient funds to cover all users balances.  Whenever a company is continuing to allow money to come in but finding more and more ways to delay outgoing payments, the issue of their solvency is going to be front and centre and needs to be addressed urgently.  

MtGox may have no legal obligation to make its accounts public, but an auditor's statement would certainly go along way towards reassuring people that it's financially sound.  The absence of such reassurance is especially baffling given that concerns about a company's solvency can sink it even if it's viable.  It's difficult not to wonder whether MtGox isn't giving that assurance because they're unwilling to make a public statement regarding their solvency which they know to be false (not sure whether this could open them up to further legal consequences in Japan).

People who believe MtGox couldn't possibly be insolvent because of the amount of revenue they've taken in are nuts.  Billion dollar corporations have become insolvent in the past and we know that MtGox has spent large amounts of money on legal proceedings, had funds frozen by financial institutions, and had funds seized.  We have no idea how much it may also have lost to fraud and hacks.  Financial institutions tend not to make such information public because it undermines customer confidence as well as publicising the fact that they are vulnerable, but the amount of losses is not going to be zero.

[okashira]

It's ironic.

To get civil legal assistance, you need to be in USD in MtGox. But, to be in USD means not buying GoxCoins for $95 each.
If you have verified account, you can convert GoxCoins to Bitcoins IMMEDIATELY for 0.35 B/G on bitcoin builder. That's $~200 per GoxCoin or ~$200 per $100 in your account.

So, I wonder why GoxDollar holders are not taking advantage of this arbitration?

[okashira]

It's ironic.

To get civil legal assistance, you need to be in USD in MtGox. But, to be in USD means not buying GoxCoins for $95 each.
If you have verified account, you can convert GoxCoins to Bitcoins IMMEDIATELY for 0.35 B/G on bitcoin builder. That's $~200 per GoxCoin or ~$200 per $100 in your account.

So, I wonder why GoxDollar holders are not taking advantage of this arbitration?

**Notes sudden drop in GoxCoin/Bitcoin value since my post**
Ill happily BTC take donations from those who got some money out because of my suggestion. :-D
1PYfYHfDdHbSb2srmJtKWG1f4xm61KuDNV

[okashira]

If a Japanese or American court orders MtGox not to enable withdrawals of BTC or fiat until they can prove they can cover all customers' deposits, then that is what MtGox will do. Someone just needs to convince a court to make that order. I would be shocked if a good lawyer couldn't make that case given that the collapse in price on MtGox is universally attributed to fear that they're not solvent.

MtGox may comply with an order from a Japanese court, but based on the Bitcoinica experience they're not going to comply with orders of foreign courts unless they have assets located within the jurisdiction of those courts -which at this stage seems to be Japan and Poland.

People need to remember that they're already embroiled in existing legal actions (both lawsuits and investigations related to money laundering).  Regulators could shut them down at any moment even if they are solvent and other legal actions could drive them out of business long before there's a judgement on any new lawsuit.

It's worrying that Mark is unwilling to make a public statement reassuring people that MtGox has sufficient funds to cover all users balances.  Whenever a company is continuing to allow money to come in but finding more and more ways to delay outgoing payments, the issue of their solvency is going to be front and centre and needs to be addressed urgently.  

MtGox may have no legal obligation to make its accounts public, but an auditor's statement would certainly go along way towards reassuring people that it's financially sound.  The absence of such reassurance is especially baffling given that concerns about a company's solvency can sink it even if it's viable.  It's difficult not to wonder whether MtGox isn't giving that assurance because they're unwilling to make a public statement regarding their solvency which they know to be false (not sure whether this could open them up to further legal consequences in Japan).

People who believe MtGox couldn't possibly be insolvent because of the amount of revenue they've taken in are nuts.  Billion dollar corporations have become insolvent in the past and we know that MtGox has spent large amounts of money on legal proceedings, had funds frozen by financial institutions, and had funds seized.  We have no idea how much it may also have lost to fraud and hacks.  Financial institutions tend not to make such information public because it undermines customer confidence as well as publicising the fact that they are vulnerable, but the amount of losses is not going to be zero.

I agree. If MtGox was solvent, it is highly likely they would make a statement as such. If they were not solvent, it is 99.9% likely they would NOT make a statement as such (any lawyer would recommend that.)

[Spekulatius]

Wondering what happens next week..

Anyway, i hope this pressure finally leads to some constructive changes at Tibanne and they come up with an acceptable solution before anybodys account gets frozen or court orders are issued. Keep up the pressure!

[repentance]

Wondering what happens next week..

Anyway, i hope this pressure finally leads to some constructive changes at Tibanne and they come up with an acceptable solution before anybodys account gets frozen or court orders are issued. Keep up the pressure!

The likelihood that anything they do now is going to be too little too late has to be considered.  They have problems happening on multiple fronts and their inability to release user funds in a timely manner might not even be the biggest of their problems.

[FrictionlessCoin]

Live MtGox Protest

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/mtgox-protest

[misiu_mp]

I had a lot of cash at mtgox. I was slowly buying coins as it was dropping and now I have mostly bitcoins at mtgox.
What are the chances of participating in this suit by suing for the current actual market value of those coins in USD?

you do not have any contract with MtGox, so you do not have any chances to get back your money.

Don't my possessions of gox coins count for something? I mean they do have an obligation to compensate for those don't they? Just as those which have gox usd.

[repentance]

I had a lot of cash at mtgox. I was slowly buying coins as it was dropping and now I have mostly bitcoins at mtgox.
What are the chances of participating in this suit by suing for the current actual market value of those coins in USD?

you do not have any contract with MtGox, so you do not have any chances to get back your money.

Don't my possessions of gox coins count for something? I mean they do have an obligation to compensate for those don't they? Just as those which have gox usd.

Their ToS acknowledges user funds as belonging to users.  While it contains boilerplate indemnity clauses, it would be extremely difficult for MtGox to argue that it has no contract with its users. 

The full extent of their liability is a bit less clear because of the disclaimers and the question of whether they have been deceiving their users, but they've got no hope of arguing that there was no "meeting of the minds" regarding the purpose for which people used their exchange and the expectation that user funds would be available on request.

[halcyon]

what´s the threshold in goxmoney/goxmoney where it makes sense to participate in the lawsuit?
Have only a few coins there, guess I should not participate due to the enormous costs of the lawsuit?

[Vandroiy]

It's ironic.

To get civil legal assistance, you need to be in USD in MtGox. But, to be in USD means not buying GoxCoins for $95 each.
If you have verified account, you can convert GoxCoins to Bitcoins IMMEDIATELY for 0.35 B/G on bitcoin builder. That's $~200 per GoxCoin or ~$200 per $100 in your account.

So, I wonder why GoxDollar holders are not taking advantage of this arbitration?

Account locked for no reason. Support doesn't answer.

I'd love to reduce my risk. I don't recall dealing with Bitinstant or any other problematic site. But my chances of getting level 2 verified in this mess are dim. I can blindly send verification docs without a request, but without any info from support they might reject or ignore them or whatever.

I guess if this continues into next week, OP's prediction will come true, and Gox will be buried in lawsuits -- in the hope that there's enough left to claim.

[Aditya]

Please open donation, a Bitcoin donation preferably.

The purpose of this law suit is not just to get your money out of Mt Gox. If you just want to get your money out of Mt Gox, you can sell your GoxCoin for real Bitcoin. But it's rather to tell another Bitcoin exchange that you may get into trouble if you mess with people's money.

I am pretty sure people will support this and give bitcoin donation even they are not Mt Gox customer.

[techgeek]

Live MtGox Protest

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/mtgox-protest

Whoah, this is priceless. 

[bitjuicy]

I've just posted an article about your pending lawsuit at www.bitjuice.com (http://bitjuice.com/2014/02/21/mt-gox-multi-plaintiff-suit/) and tweeted about it as well (bitjuicenews). Good luck to you and your fellow plaintiffs. When you are able, would love to communicate so can update readers.

[Nagle]

MtGox may comply with an order from a Japanese court, but based on the Bitcoinica experience they're not going to comply with orders of foreign courts unless they have assets located within the jurisdiction of those courts -which at this stage seems to be Japan and Poland.

Mt. Gox is complying with orders of the U.S. District Court in Seattle in the Coinbase case.

Mt. Gox has an explicit legal presence in the US, in Delaware. They established a dummy office so they could register with FinCen. That makes them subject to US courts.

There's so much trade between the US and Japan that the mechanisms for resolving contract disputes are all in place and well worked out. The Government of Japan even has offices in the US to help. That's part of what the Japan External Trade Organization does.

[CompNsci]

Please open donation, a Bitcoin donation preferably.

The purpose of this law suit is not just to get your money out of Mt Gox. If you just want to get your money out of Mt Gox, you can sell your GoxCoin for real Bitcoin. But it's rather to tell another Bitcoin exchange that you may get into trouble if you mess with people's money.

I am pretty sure people will support this and give bitcoin donation even they are not Mt Gox customer.

Yes, exchanges need to know that if they continue with this type of incompetence and with large sums, eventually people will take legal action and force them to behave reasonably.

I will donate to help defray costs.

[dynodog]

This supposed lawsuit sounds like a joke to me.  If someone converts property, the remedy is monetary damages.  Those damages will be based on the cost to obtain the property for the victim which was converted.  The fair market value of bitcoin converted are the damages.  the idea that the victim must be or should be in cash with mtgox is completely wrong.  I don't buy what this attorney is supposedly saying that it is better to have dollars instead of bitcoin. 

Consider if you entrust your gold coin with someone and the value of the gold coin is $1000.  The person later tells you that you will not get the gold coin back.  You sue.  You are not required to sell the right to this gold coin to then have a valid suit against the person.  You can sue for the value of gold coin (or under certain circumstances the gold coin itself).  If the fair market value of the gold coin is $2000 at the time of the trial, that is what you would receive as a judgment. 

I simply don't believe that a number of people are all selling to comply with the supposed direction of this one attorney, especially when the idea that your case is stronger by being in cash instead of bitcoin is wrong. 

[halcyon]

Live MtGox Protest

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/mtgox-protest

japanese police has banned the protest 

http://www.coindesk.com/japanese-police-shut-down-protest-gox/

[Aditya]

Even if they open Bitcoin withdrawal tomorrow. Please Continue this Lawsuit!