Mt.Gox Multi-plaintiff Suit

[nmersulypnem]

I have contacted the offices of my law firm (REDACTED) in Tokyo to begin proceedings to sue Mt.Gox / Tibanne Ltd / Mark Karpeles for my USD funds.  He advised me that suing for USD is much more reliable than suing for BTC (since the price varies and bankruptcy collection on BTC has an unclear legal process).  Given the liquidations we see on MtGox we believe that there are likely other large plaintiffs filing suit, so we want to move quickly.

If you are interested in being co-plaintiffs in this suit, please PM me (I'm happy to split legal costs), and I will put you in touch with the partner I am dealing with.  Note that you will need to provide full proof of identification as well as proof of account ownership on Gox (to be provided to the law firm, not myself).

In general, a class action type suit is most likely to get us "smaller" holders a larger percentage of our funds than if we filed separate law suits.

If it happens that Mt.Gox enters into bankruptcy (likely as a result of a preceding lawsuit), the firm is experienced in bankruptcy negotiations/law to maximize our tier on collections.  Hopefully we can collect before that because Japanese bankruptcy law is neither well defined nor quick.

We are looking to finish collecting plaintiffs by EOD Friday JST, and file a case as early as we can get the paperwork together next week.

EDIT:  I've received a HUGE number of PMs, so it's going to take time for me to get back to everyone.   I stated above that we want to get everyone in by tomorrow, but given the number of people and the amount of money some of you have noted, I think it will take through the weekend to get it all straight.  My attorney in Tokyo is obviously asleep now, but here are the points I will clarify with him tomorrow...

1. What exactly are the terms of suing for any existing BTC holdings?  *My understanding when speaking with him is that he was not interested in suing for BTC for a few reasons - a. Any collection of actual BTC (ie property) is a different collection process at judgment time.  b. That BTC may not exist and you may not be able to sue other assets at value if you are suing for property.  c. The valuation of BTC would be at the time of judgment - not the price on eg. BitStamp pre MtGox announcement nor on filing day.  From his description of qualified plaintiffs, I strongly suspect that he wants people suing for USD entirely (...and he's probably looking out for his commission as well, TBH).   In any case, I will clarify with him tomorrow.  Maybe we can make it people with (at least) 10K USD, and also whatever BTC - but I am not optimistic.*

2. What are the fees?  *I've worked with the firm in the past and they charge ~10% on judgment collection (contingency).  There are usually also some non-contingent fees paid up front, but given that we have a number of plaintiffs seemingly ready to go with significant holdings I may be able to get him to waive non-contingent (up-front) fees.  In any case, they would amount to much less than the 10% even if we do pay it.*

3. What exact evidence of identity and ownership do you need to begin?  *I'm guessing this will entail a scan of your ID and a screenshot of your account, and some forms to fill out / sign / fax or scan, but you may need something notarized, so hold off on that until he responds.*

4. Is there any limit on the number of plaintiffs you will represent?  *He did not indicate there was, but I gave him an estimate much lower than the responses I've received.*

**Also, please PM me with your email address so the attorney can email everyone directly when it's all decided.**

Anything else I'm forgetting?

**UPDATE**
Everyone, thank you so much for getting in touch with me.  I am sorry I wasn't able to accommodate many of you.   I wasn't able to add as many people as I had initially hoped (since it's not a real class action), and the lawyer was quite strict about suing for cash amounts.  Some of you had very heartfelt stories - thank you for sharing that, honestly, and I intend on responding to everyone who messaged me individually.  

For those who I've PM'd with details, please submit the documents this weekend (per the email you should get).  For everyone else - I really wish you guys the best of luck.  There are plenty of lawyers in Tokyo that speak english (check the big international law firms).  Any firm that size will have litigation specialists, and that's all you really need.

Best of luck.
PS.  To the press who have contact me - thank you for your PMs, but I was specifically instructed NOT to discuss this with the press.
PPS.  I changed the title to correct that this is not technically a "class action" suit.


***FINAL UPDATE***

I'm sure that everyone is aware that MtGox declared bankruptcy yesterday.  As such, our lawsuit is off and we, like everyone, will be filing a claim in bankruptcy court.  Words cannot express my (our) disappointment in this whole debacle.  Over the last week I have spoken to people from all around the world, many of whom are now facing financial catastrophe - and it is heartbreaking.  It is especially disheartening given the noble endeavor we had set out to achieve.  To create a financial system based on open source principals that would level the playing field for people around the world and liberate them from the various corrupt central banks sabotaging their success and financial freedom.  Yet here we are, betrayed by a trust system similar to what we sought to avoid.  Ultimately, I still believe in cryptocurrency technology and how it will revolutionize the financial world; but it is clear that still has a lot of growing up to do - both the protocol and the service ecosystem.  As a testament to the REAL PEOPLE who've been left in the wake of this lesson, I'd like to share with you a small sample of the personal messages I received (personal information removed).



______________________________________________________________________________

Hello,

I am in Japan and have deposited 12.499 million Yen (about USD 122,000) at MtGox from October to December 2013. I currently have 175 BTCs and 13,000 Yen in cash at their exchange. I also have a Premium status account.

Please let me know how to proceed.
That was most of my retirement money.

______________________________________________________________________________

Hi.

My name is xxx and I live in Sweden, Malmö.
I am writing for me and for my girlfriend and my dad.
We all bought and sold bitcoins a last years and made some money.
We have taken out some money when we need to and right now me and my girlfriend was going to buy a house and start a family so we tried to withdraw the money in January.
Since the money didn't show up after 4 weeks I tried to contact them but still nothing.
I hope that together with you and some others get at least some money back.
If you need any proof of the withdrawals or such I can provide some of it.
We had in total $49000 on the accounts.

Hope to hear from you regarding this, since we are unsure how to proceed.

______________________________________________________________________________

Help!

I have about 90 BTC and no USD in my mtgox account, which I would very much like to receive back at some point. It's only just sinking in that it might all be gone.. I can't believe I waited so long before getting it out somewhere safe, but.. here we are.

______________________________________________________________________________

Hey there,
I am interested in being a plaintiff as well.  I had about 70k in Mtgox in Dec due to the price explosion in November and attempted to withdraw some funds since I wasn't comfortable having that amount hosted there.  I ran into the withdrawal issue back in Dec and opened a support ticket in which I got the run around until they finally officially announced what the problem was.  As the moment, I don't have any $$ in Mtgox but around 180 BTC.  My stomach has been in knots all week :-(

______________________________________________________________________________

Hello,

at the time that the withdrawal stopped I have over $3MM in fiat at Gox.  I now have ~5,400 BTC there.  It maybe sizeable enough for your attorneys to consider taking on a BTC claim?  In any case, if they think that I can sue based on my fiat balance prior to withdrawal suspension, based on the idea that any subsequent trading was essentially fraudulent, well then I would be interested in join the effort.

______________________________________________________________________________

Hi,

My name is xxxxxx and I am from California (if that matters).  I have about 650 BTC in Gox.  I haven't slept in days and haven't been able to tell my wife how much I've lost.  I was an early adopter, just mining in my basement, and I can't imagine all of my time and work vanishing like this.  Please contact me with what I need to do

______________________________________________________________________________

I am a French citizen.  I would like to know how to try and join you in reclaiming my lost funds.  I had almost 100.000 EUR in my account.  It will be a complete disaster for me if it is stolen.

______________________________________________________________________________

I cannot reasonably afford to lose the funds I have at Mtgox. I currently hold the majority in USD, but also significant amounts of EUR and BTC.

______________________________________________________________________________

I would like to join your action lawsui as co-paintiff. I try to keep this short since you are probably getting tons of PMs.

I'm resident of Germany and I'm waiting for ~5700 Euros (~7800 US$) to be withdrawn by MTGOX. I also have about 9 BTCs on my account there. I successfully received a MTGOX-withdrawal of 990 EUR on 2013/12/30, which was ordered on 2013/12/03.

I'm a student and this is almost all of my money I have left (I actually have a lot of debt, which I intended to pay back with that money). I'm really panicking right now and not sure what to do!!!

______________________________________________________________________________

I'm in Tokyo as well and I lost ~8 BTC and 500,000 in JPY. Please let me know how your case progresses and whether at any time you think it would be possible to get others involved. I really hope I can get at least some of that money back. I need it.

______________________________________________________________________________

I am very interested in your proposal of suing Mt.Gox to get what is ours.

I would need to sue for more than 70000EUR or over 90000USD. The ammount depends of the bitcoin price - not the manipulated Mt.Gox price, but like the Bitcoin price index on coinbase.com.
Although it would be best if Mt.Gox let me simply withdraw my more than 170BTC.

So many people are angry about Mt.Gox and me too. They act like scamers.

______________________________________________________________________________

I have CSV's, screenshots + multiple records everything for owning 994.90514041 BTC through my mtgox accounts.

I have ZERO fiat located in mtgox.

______________________________________________________________________________

Hi, I had 100BTC but a friend had $14000 USD on Gox. Can you put me into contact with whomever is organising the class action lawsuit?

______________________________________________________________________________

I had some 125BTC & $1000 on MtGox. I'd prefer to recover the BTC but if not possible, USD is better than nothing. Technically at the last price the total is well above the $10000 limit. Can you count me in? What should I do next?

______________________________________________________________________________

Hey, I'd like to get involved in this as well. Gox has yet to deliver a withdrawal of funds from late last year and currently has all my coins locked up because of their withdrawal lock. Email is below, let me know if you need any other info. Thanks,

______________________________________________________________________________

(originally I tried to withdraw $30,000.00, but Mt.Gox cancelled my withdraw and asked me to change to GBP. Funds never arrived--> Mt.Gox confirmed they were unable to wire funds, but funds are not re-instated to my account. Mt.Gox admits in the e-mail funds are mine.)

______________________________________________________________________________

I'm interested in joining as a co-P in Japan, I have $200k+ in cash balance (no bitcoins) locked up on their site right now. Let me know how many other co-Ps will be represented and the estimated legal costs. Do we have an update on the status of Mt Gox? They haven't filed for bankruptcy just yet. I'm a verified member so I'm thinking they might resume operations and just send us a check, but I'm interested in others' opinions on that.

______________________________________________________________________________

I found your post just today after the Gox closed the site. I had 10,200 USD with them, which I traded just last week for gox coin. I initially deposited USD from bank account on November 2013, and traded on Gox just about 2 weeks ago, not knowing there was a trouble to withdraw any BTC from them. I do have screen shots from last week from trading and all my history since November 2013. My initial deposits in November have been 8000 USD and 2200 USD, so whatever trading I did in last weeks was for vain since gox did not let any BTC out of the site. Current standing on my account is about 27 BTC and around 2200 USD but since gox coin was never a real BTC, as I just learnt recently, I consider Gox owing me 10200 USD which I initially deposited.

______________________________________________________________________________

I wish to be include in the class action lawsuit, I an non-us (EU) and have lost 50 BTC and 24,600€.

Please let me know if I can be included.

______________________________________________________________________________

I would like to join the lawsuit.. i lost 112 btc.

______________________________________________________________________________

I have 93BTC at stake in mtgox.
Money used to acquire it was 29k EUR.

I would like to join the lawsuit if there is any chance of getting the either the BTC or EURO-equivalent at the price determined at the time of judgement.

I would be thankful for any news / suggestions / ideas.

Thank you very much

______________________________________________________________________________

I want to participate. I have 85 BTC on Mt Gox.

Please update me and let me know, which further steps I have to take to participate.

______________________________________________________________________________

I had $28500 in, and purchased 50btc @ $570.  So now I have the 49.7btc still in and no fiat.  Have been waiting for withdrawal to resume to clean myself of gox forever.

I was very lucky, having pulled out the bulk of my btc holdings from gox in mid-January.

Please respond if whether I can or can't participate.

______________________________________________________________________________

I have 37 BTCs and wnt to be part of your lawsuit. Please send me more details.

______________________________________________________________________________

i too am a Gox victim.  I have 69 BTC stuck on Gox. At this stage i would be very reluctant to take such a haircut and convert to USD.

Has the lawyer you hired totally ruled out BTC cases? Is he even taking on new cases?

______________________________________________________________________________

My mtgox holdings are only 32.5 btc but i would still like to be part of the law suit.

______________________________________________________________________________

I am close to you're class action suite limit. I had a pending withdraw for $8,000 USD, that they refused to process or refund to my account. I complained so much they blocked my account.

______________________________________________________________________________

I have roughly $100K in my account, so it might be worth it for the lawyer to squeeze me in.

______________________________________________________________________________

hi we are interested to participate also
and we have a company account with them

let me know how to proceed

______________________________________________________________________________

I have 50BTC in MTGOX and would be interested in joining. If yes, how large would the fees be?

______________________________________________________________________________

If Mtgox is indeed gone and finished, I would like to know what the status of this suit is and who I can contact regarding it. I had about 111.777 BTC on gox.

______________________________________________________________________________

I have 158 btc on MtGox and would like to take part to your lawsuit.

______________________________________________________________________________

Most of our holdings were in bitcoin, and at market rates on other exchanges, I had over $40,000 while my friends had $300,000 to 400,000.

______________________________________________________________________________

I have 154 BTC and 0 USD in MTGOX.

I live in Malta but would like to know what my options are for joining your case?

______________________________________________________________________________

Hey. Mt. Gox has owed me roughly 1,800 USD for more than 6 months. Two transactions. One they're claiming technical difficulties to Dwolla which never went through, and one they just never sent to my bank.

______________________________________________________________________________

I'm a very credible trader who pays his American taxes yearly. I feel so stupid for holding the majority of my BTC exposure on mt gox in hindsight......

I have 301 BTC on mt gox and under $10 USD, my account on gox was a verified account as well.

______________________________________________________________________________

I have around 5.5k EUR stuck in Gox. Could you please inform me on how to proceed?

______________________________________________________________________________

[1715457693]

1715457693

[1715457693]

1715457693

[cokea]

Now, this is getting interesting

[Richard Branson]

About how much money do you talk?
100k ? 1M?

[nmersulypnem]

About how much money do you talk?
100k ? 1M?

The lawyers requested that co-defendants have at least $10000 USD in a Gox account to be listed on the case.

[thelema93]

About how much money do you talk?
100k ? 1M?

ha ha that shut up that prick!

[Richard Branson]

About how much money do you talk?
100k ? 1M?

ha ha that shut up that prick!

?

Sorry to bother you. But filling a lawsuit with co-defendants with only 100$ in a Gox account is pretty STUPID!

[WompRat]

My understanding is that Japan does not have a legal framework for class actions as yet although it has been discussed in the context of the Fukushima fall out.  Very few legal systems actually have a workable US style class action system in place.  My information may be out of date though, could you explain in any more detail?

[BitCoinNutJob]

want the BTC also

[p0peji]

I have contacted the offices of my law firm (Bingham) in Tokyo to begin proceedings to sue Mt.Gox / Tibanne Ltd / Mark Karpeles for my USD funds.  He advised me that suing for USD is much more reliable than suing for BTC (since the price varies and bankruptcy collection on BTC has unclear legal process).  We believe that there are numerous other plaintiffs in the early stages of filing suit and suspect that is why it appears that accounts are liquidating to cash on Mt Gox.

If you are interested in being co-plaintiffs in this suit, please PM me (I'm happy to split legal costs), and I will put you in touch with the partner I am dealing with.  Note that you will need to provide full proof of identification as well as proof of account ownership on Gox (to be provided to Bingham, not myself).

In general, a class action type suit is most likely to get everyone their funds (or fair percentage thereof) than if we all file separate law suits.

TL;DR please sell your coins for USD on gox so i can buy them cheaper?

[nmersulypnem]

My understanding is that Japan does not have a legal framework for class actions as yet although it has been discussed in the context of the Fukushima fall out.  Very few legal systems actually have a workable US style class action system in place.  My information may be out of date though, could you explain in any more detail?

Correct.  In this case, we'd all be equal co-plaintiffs.  This isn't an American style class action, it's just a regular law suit with a number of co-plaintiffs.  We'd all equally share the attorney costs.

[wobber]

About how much money do you talk?
100k ? 1M?

ha ha that shut up that prick!

?

Sorry to bother you. But filling a lawsuit with co-defendants with only 100$ in a Gox account is pretty STUPID!

100 USD is  0.16 BTC. Nobody has the right to steal from you, even 1 cent. Justice should be blind, remember?

[nmersulypnem]

I have contacted the offices of my law firm (Bingham) in Tokyo to begin proceedings to sue Mt.Gox / Tibanne Ltd / Mark Karpeles for my USD funds.  He advised me that suing for USD is much more reliable than suing for BTC (since the price varies and bankruptcy collection on BTC has unclear legal process).  We believe that there are numerous other plaintiffs in the early stages of filing suit and suspect that is why it appears that accounts are liquidating to cash on Mt Gox.

If you are interested in being co-plaintiffs in this suit, please PM me (I'm happy to split legal costs), and I will put you in touch with the partner I am dealing with.  Note that you will need to provide full proof of identification as well as proof of account ownership on Gox (to be provided to Bingham, not myself).

In general, a class action type suit is most likely to get everyone their funds (or fair percentage thereof) than if we all file separate law suits.

TL;DR please sell your coins for USD on gox so i can buy them cheaper?

No, you do not need to sell your coins.  But when it comes time to file the suit, you'll have to list the USD you are suing for - and you can only collect what you declare as your holdings.  The initial filing should be ready be middle of next week.

[Richard Branson]

I didn't say stealing is ok.
It's just more effort to fill in your name than 100$ worth in BTC...

Probably you never used your legal system and had to pay for anything  

[ricolein]

My understanding is that Japan does not have a legal framework for class actions as yet although it has been discussed in the context of the Fukushima fall out.  Very few legal systems actually have a workable US style class action system in place.  My information may be out of date though, could you explain in any more detail?

I think this is the reason why lawyers want to have participiants at least with 10000$. Each one is a single file, there are no class actions possible.

Im interested in this, but just for my BTC, not for the $.

[invisiblefriend]

interested ---    plz contact me

have plenty in but i coverted to bit coin as I wait 

[nmersulypnem]

My understanding is that Japan does not have a legal framework for class actions as yet although it has been discussed in the context of the Fukushima fall out.  Very few legal systems actually have a workable US style class action system in place.  My information may be out of date though, could you explain in any more detail?

I think this is the reason why lawyers want to have participiants at least with 10000$. Each one is a single file, there are no class actions possible.

Im interested in this, but just for my BTC, not for the $.

Not exactly, it is still one filing, just with multiple plaintiffs.  The difference is that a US class action suit has specific provisions to manage high numbers of plaintiffs in aggregate (eg that x% of plaintiffs must vote for a settlement, and no suits can be brought outside the class action suit, etc...).  

In Japan, it's much more simple (ie like an individual suit) where the lawyer negotiates a settlement and each participant can accept or exit the suit.  If you don't agree to the settlement, you're free to get another lawyer and try again.

The critical issue here is timing.  I want this suit to progress quickly in case there are other suits that are already at later stages of collection.  I don't want to be the last one holding the bag.

[jbrnt]

It is about time someone sue them, interesting to see how Mt Gox would react. Court or settlement? 

[nmersulypnem]

It is about time someone sue them, interesting to see how Mt Gox would react. Court or settlement? 

If they have money, I'm sure they'll settle.  In fact, I'm fairly certain big holders have already been suing them and getting their money out on the side.

[Rygon]

I have contacted the offices of my law firm (Bingham) in Tokyo to begin proceedings to sue Mt.Gox / Tibanne Ltd / Mark Karpeles for my USD funds.  He advised me that suing for USD is much more reliable than suing for BTC (since the price varies and bankruptcy collection on BTC has unclear legal process).  We believe that there are numerous other plaintiffs in the early stages of filing suit and suspect that is why it appears that accounts are liquidating to cash on Mt Gox.

If you are interested in being co-plaintiffs in this suit, please PM me (I'm happy to split legal costs), and I will put you in touch with the partner I am dealing with.  Note that you will need to provide full proof of identification as well as proof of account ownership on Gox (to be provided to Bingham, not myself).

In general, a class action type suit is most likely to get everyone their funds (or fair percentage thereof) than if we all file separate law suits.

TL;DR please sell your coins for USD on gox so i can buy them cheaper?

No, you do not need to sell your coins.  But when it comes time to file the suit, you'll have to list the USD you are suing for - and you can only collect what you declare as your holdings.  The initial filing should be ready be middle of next week.

I'm no legal expert, but if I had BTC on MtGox, I wouldn't sell them and declare the value of the coins at one of the other exchanges like Bitstamp or Coinbase.

[Wit22]

I own around 60 btcs and 0 usd in Mt Gox's possession.

I live in Australia.

What are my options? Can I participate? What would be legal costs approximately?

[pickaname]

I have contacted the offices of my law firm (Bingham) in Tokyo to begin proceedings to sue Mt.Gox / Tibanne Ltd / Mark Karpeles for my USD funds.  He advised me that suing for USD is much more reliable than suing for BTC (since the price varies and bankruptcy collection on BTC has unclear legal process).  We believe that there are numerous other plaintiffs in the early stages of filing suit and suspect that is why it appears that accounts are liquidating to cash on Mt Gox.

If you are interested in being co-plaintiffs in this suit, please PM me (I'm happy to split legal costs), and I will put you in touch with the partner I am dealing with.  Note that you will need to provide full proof of identification as well as proof of account ownership on Gox (to be provided to Bingham, not myself).

In general, a class action type suit is most likely to get everyone their funds (or fair percentage thereof) than if we all file separate law suits.

TL;DR please sell your coins for USD on gox so i can buy them cheaper?

No, you do not need to sell your coins.  But when it comes time to file the suit, you'll have to list the USD you are suing for - and you can only collect what you declare as your holdings.  The initial filing should be ready be middle of next week.

Due their carelessness that has caused such low prices, they have effectively halted the growth of bitcoins throughout all exchanges and not just Mt. Gox. Can investors using other exchanges hop on this class action boat for their losses following Mt.Gox's statements. The investor and public confidence was much stronger before this event, and therefore making Mt.Gox reliable for any expected price levels that now will never be reached.

[nmersulypnem]

I own around 60 btcs and 0 usd in Mt Gox's possession.

I live in Australia.

What are my options? Can I participate? What would be legal costs approximately?

Anyone can sue.  You will need to decide before we file if you want to liquidate and sue for cash, or try to sue for BTC.  I clarified with the lawyer that we CAN sue for BTC, but if the price drops, they are only required to provide the BTC, and if the price increases, they may make an argument that the value at the time of the suit was what should be paid.  So, it get's hairy.  Also, it is not clear how a legal order can force BTC transfer...  so, obviously, you're taking a much bigger risk suing for BTC.

[MakeBelieve]

This is interesting I will be following this and see if it is serious or not.

[raskul]

good to see some action being taken. finally. good luck to all who are fighting for what is their own.

[dreamspark]

Good luck but I doubt you will get anything from them for a while, its been a week since btc withdrawals were closed, hardly enough time in the eyes of the law to do a full audit and fix any problems. Not saying that gox isnt stalling but a law suit at this stage seems premature.

[raskul]

Good luck but I doubt you will get anything from them for a while, its been a week since btc withdrawals were closed, hardly enough time in the eyes of the law to do a full audit and fix any problems. Not saying that gox isnt stalling but a law suit at this stage seems premature.

so you find it acceptable for gox customers who have waited MONTHS for funds, to just sit twiddling their thumbs?
If I said to you, i have your €6000, but i'm going to keep it for 6 months and earn interest in my bank before I give it back to you, what would you say to me?
you'd say 'oh i'm just a sock puppet for gox, trying to calm tensions on this internet forum - please keep my €6000 and earn interest from it'

yup. 

[FrictionlessCoin]

I own around 60 btcs and 0 usd in Mt Gox's possession.

I live in Australia.

What are my options? Can I participate? What would be legal costs approximately?

Anyone can sue.  You will need to decide before we file if you want to liquidate and sue for cash, or try to sue for BTC.  I clarified with the lawyer that we CAN sue for BTC, but if the price drops, they are only required to provide the BTC, and if the price increases, they may make an argument that the value at the time of the suit was what should be paid.  So, it get's hairy.  Also, it is not clear how a legal order can force BTC transfer...  so, obviously, you're taking a much bigger risk suing for BTC.

Of course you can sue for BTC.   The price of BTC is not what Mt.Gox says it is,  it is what the market says it is.

It is like any commodity held by a custodian.  If this were a storage facility for gold, then if they held gold, it does not matter what the price of gold is,  they still have to return gold.

[roundrobin]

And what are the options for small holders? The ones that have 2 or 3 BTC stuck at MtGox, which at the time of their shutdown was worth around $1500-$2000 (which to some people is a lot of money.)

[yumei]

The faster you sue MTGox, the better are your chances to get anything later. First come, first serve    
precept if he is really insolvent.

If MTGox is already out of money you should try to sue Mark Karpeles directly, because of his liability.

[medialab101]

I'm a permanent resident of Japan with more than a few coins locked up in Gox. I'll follow this thread closely.

[raskul]

I'm a permanent resident of Japan with more than a few coins locked up in Gox. I'll follow this thread closely.

friend, see the post above yours, you should really seek legal advice as soon as possible.

[MakeBelieve]

The faster you sue MTGox, the better are your chances to get anything later. First come, first serve    
precept if he is really insolvent.

If MTGox is already out of money you should try to sue Mark Karpeles directly, because of his liability.

I have no clue about suing anyone and thats why I haven't proceeded to do so and I think a lot of others are in the same boat as me.

[Spekulatius]

In case this ever becomes a bankruptcy case I hope it goes better then the Bitcoinica case...

(because I got funds locked up in Gox as well!)

[Dimelord]

Sue them to the moon boys!!!!

[yumei]

I have no clue about suing anyone and thats why I haven't proceeded to do so and I think a lot of others are in the same boat as me.

Thats your chance, you should contact the OP and talk to him directly as he is offering other people to sue MTGox as well.
If you want to sue him personally, the first thing you should do is to contact a civil lawyer who is specialized in this kind of branch. To sue him directly in japan with a japanese lawyer has some benefits.

[nmersulypnem]

FYI, everyone.  I appreciate the participation here, but if you want to be involved in the suit, you need to PM me and I'll give you the partner's information to contact by end of day Friday Tokyo time (we are filing next week).

You should not follow this thread expecting to see a lawsuit update after we file.  It is typical that these cases are settled with a confidentiality clauses which will prevent any of us from discussing that there was even a settlement.  (this is why I suspect Gox has likely already settled with some of the larger holders).

[Brisance]

With litigation your Mt.Gox account could and most likely will become frozen pending the outcome of any settlement which "could take years" pending appeals and if any actual payment to your bank account.

You must considered the outcome of your Mt.Gox account becoming frozen during the litigation process, and the "possibility" that BTC withdraws "may" become available again in the the short term which could mean those who waited see their BTC before those who litigate.

Litigation is a long and costly battle and you must seriously consider all your options and avenues before heading down that path.

Having said that I'm personally willing to fight this out and look forward to the day Mt.Gox owns up to all it's incompetence.

[greenalliancegroup]

Finally someone is standing up to that Pokemon Mark Karpeles. Hope the attorneys there in Japan get every single penny back from that crook.

[igorr]

Mtgox is the same as the Edward Snouden.
It is not possible in another country

[ecke84]

I'm in!! Tell me What to do. I have 135 btc on gox.

[igorr]

I'm in!! Tell me What to do. I have 135 btc on gox.

you've lost everything, and the BTC and money.

[BitBits]

Once the suite is filed, the accounts of all plaintiffs will be most likely locked. So, what if meanwhile Gox opens BTC withdrawals?

[rcocchiararo]

I have 30 btc trapped in there...

Do i qualify? What is the cost until it is recovered?

[igorr]

I have 30 btc trapped in there...

Do i qualify? What is the cost until it is recovered?

no more recovery game is over, now  Bitstamp and BTC-e go to bottom !

[Pangia]

About how much money do you talk?
100k ? 1M?

ha ha that shut up that prick!

?

Sorry to bother you. But filling a lawsuit with co-defendants with only 100$ in a Gox account is pretty STUPID!

Where did the OP state that?

[BitCoinNutJob]

Once the suite is filed, the accounts of all plaintiffs will be most likely locked. So, what if meanwhile Gox opens BTC withdrawals?

yep was thinking that

[Petopas]

Although I haven't got funds @mtgox anymore, I'll supply you with some information in order to support anybody who wants to sue mtgox because I'm very interested in seeing Mark Karpeles at court for his actions. lost quiet a bit during the last days when leaving mtgox.

throughout the last week immediately after the first press release of mtgox regarding halted btc withdrawals, you could observe huge rhythmic btc dumps @mtgox every 2-5 minutes following always the same pattern ("the whale of mtgox"). the sum of these dumps up to now is approx 140000 btc at an average price of around us$270. ie a us$38 mio sell-off. there were a few stuck levels eg at us$261.24 yesterday and us$148.15 the day before yesterday. these were manipulated levels by the whale serving all asks above these levels every 2-5 minutes. this is very difficult to do through the api of mtgox. but very easy if you're in charge of the order book itself.

Therefore, you'll have to deal with either a very risky investor who is going to sue mtgox as well for his us$38+ mio funds @mtgox pretty soon.

if you take into account that most of the trading fees at mtgox were paid in btc throughout the last years (default setting), it is more likely that the whale rushing all the btc on the market is mtgox resp Mark Karpeles himself. This would be an easy way to transfer the customers fiat collected throughout the last years to his own account reducing his liability in € and us$. if you further take into account, that maybe a good portion of btc stored at mtgox got stolen, mtgox might blame the bitcoin protocol ("transaction malleability") as a cause for the loss. the result: Mark Karpeles got the customers fiat, the customers got stolen btc. the customers could file a charge against an unknown person for stealing their btc.

what does this mean? --> all data on the servers of mtgox must be assured immediately in order to investigate the fraud.

ressources:
http://bitcoincharts.com/
http://bitcoinwisdom.com/
http://coinsight.org/mtgox.html

[rcocchiararo]

I have 30 btc trapped in there...

Do i qualify? What is the cost until it is recovered?

no more recovery game is over, now  Bitstamp and BTC-e go to bottom !

do you quote every user that asks here?

[dreamspark]

Good luck but I doubt you will get anything from them for a while, its been a week since btc withdrawals were closed, hardly enough time in the eyes of the law to do a full audit and fix any problems. Not saying that gox isnt stalling but a law suit at this stage seems premature.

so you find it acceptable for gox customers who have waited MONTHS for funds, to just sit twiddling their thumbs?
If I said to you, i have your €6000, but i'm going to keep it for 6 months and earn interest in my bank before I give it back to you, what would you say to me?
you'd say 'oh i'm just a sock puppet for gox, trying to calm tensions on this internet forum - please keep my €6000 and earn interest from it'

yup. 

Where did I say it was acceptable...

In the case of fiat withdrawals I would concede that if you have been waiting months for them then you have a case. What I was saying is that people here including the OP have btc balances not fiat balances and in the case of trying to sue for btc losses a week would not be considered long enough to allow them to do any account audits, fund recovery or fixes, especially as they are in contact (albeit very badly) with their customers and have not said "ah shit moneys gone, tough shit".

[raskul]

Good luck but I doubt you will get anything from them for a while, its been a week since btc withdrawals were closed, hardly enough time in the eyes of the law to do a full audit and fix any problems. Not saying that gox isnt stalling but a law suit at this stage seems premature.

so you find it acceptable for gox customers who have waited MONTHS for funds, to just sit twiddling their thumbs?
If I said to you, i have your €6000, but i'm going to keep it for 6 months and earn interest in my bank before I give it back to you, what would you say to me?
you'd say 'oh i'm just a sock puppet for gox, trying to calm tensions on this internet forum - please keep my €6000 and earn interest from it'

yup. 

Where did I say it was acceptable...

In the case of fiat withdrawals I would concede that if you have been waiting months for them then you have a case. What I was saying is that people here including the OP have btc balances not fiat balances and in the case of trying to sue for btc losses a week would not be considered long enough to allow them to do any account audits, fund recovery or fixes, especially as they are in contact (albeit very badly) with their customers and have not said "ah shit moneys gone, tough shit".

your post read as though your were trying to dissuade folks from taking legal action. I would think contrary to that, the earlier you file a law suit, in cases like this, the better.

[Bobsurplus]

I have contacted the offices of my law firm (REDACTED) in Tokyo to begin proceedings to sue Mt.Gox / Tibanne Ltd / Mark Karpeles for my USD funds.  He advised me that suing for USD is much more reliable than suing for BTC (since the price varies and bankruptcy collection on BTC has an unclear legal process).  Given the liquidations we see on MtGox we believe that there are likely other large plaintiffs filing suit, so we want to move quickly.

If you are interested in being co-plaintiffs in this suit, please PM me (I'm happy to split legal costs), and I will put you in touch with the partner I am dealing with.  Note that you will need to provide full proof of identification as well as proof of account ownership on Gox (to be provided to the law firm, not myself).

In general, a class action type suit is most likely to get us "smaller" holders a larger percentage of our funds than if we filed separate law suits.

If it happens that Mt.Gox enters into bankruptcy (likely as a result of a preceding lawsuit), the firm is experienced in bankruptcy negotiations/law to maximize our tier on collections.  Hopefully we can collect before that because Japanese bankruptcy law is neither well defined nor quick.

We are looking to finish collecting plaintiffs by EOD Friday JST, and file a case as early as we can get the paperwork together next week.

If they go bankrupt I can assure you there will be nothing to collect. Mark will have hidden all the btc somewhere and have no assets to seize.

You can bank on that!

[zyk]

Although I haven't got funds @mtgox anymore, I'll supply you with some information in order to support anybody who wants to sue mtgox because I'm very interested in seeing Mark Karpeles at court for his actions. lost quiet a bit during the last days when leaving mtgox.

throughout the last week immediately after the first press release of mtgox regarding halted btc withdrawals, you could observe huge rhythmic btc dumps @mtgox every 2-5 minutes following always the same pattern ("the whale of mtgox"). the sum of these dumps up to now is approx 140000 btc at an average price of around us$270. ie a us$38 mio sell-off. there were a few stuck levels eg at us$261.24 yesterday and us$148.15 the day before yesterday. these were manipulated levels by the whale serving all asks above these levels every 2-5 minutes. this is very difficult to do through the api of mtgox. but very easy if you're in charge of the order book itself.

Therefore, you'll have to deal with either a very risky investor who is going to sue mtgox as well for his us$38+ mio funds @mtgox pretty soon.

if you take into account that most of the trading fees at mtgox were paid in btc throughout the last years (default setting), it is more likely that the whale rushing all the btc on the market is mtgox resp Mark Karpeles himself. This would be an easy way to transfer the customers fiat collected throughout the last years to his own account reducing his liability in € and us$. if you further take into account, that maybe a good portion of btc stored at mtgox got stolen, mtgox might blame the bitcoin protocol ("transaction malleability") as a cause for the loss. the result: Mark Karpeles got the customers fiat, the customers got stolen btc. the customers could file a charge against an unknown person for stealing their btc.

what does this mean? --> all data on the servers of mtgox must be assured immediately in order to investigate the fraud.

ressources:
http://bitcoincharts.com/
http://bitcoinwisdom.com/
http://coinsight.org/mtgox.html

Bravo...

the only person in the whole BTC-world who gets it  ! at least part of.....

cause Mark didn´t thought out neither accomplished the heist all by himself!

Cheers

[zyk]

I'm in!! Tell me What to do. I have 135 btc on gox.

sell them at bitcoinbuilder as there are still bagholders to be had 

[BitCoinNutJob]

PMed

[zyk]

I'm a permanent resident of Japan with more than a few coins locked up in Gox. I'll follow this thread closely.

Its an urgent matter and criminal insider dealing....you need a very good laywer as he bought the best already to

convince the local authorities to arrest him before all traces are extinct.....

The most obvious trace and hint should be given by knowing which goxaccount did all the selling in the last 10 days!

That haven´t been panicked idiots...that went to a balance which you´ll only retrieve at the cayman islands.....

By moving the office unluckily got some data deleted , you´ll see....in the next announcement

[pleiotropik]

Strange that people here would think that "trading" is happening inside the MtGox black box. At this point common sense has to take over: Karpeles is preparing to redeem all btc of customers in fiat usd. when he conveniently sets the price at $1usd=1btc.... (0.10usd=1btc?, less?) ... lulz. the K Frapuccino man will determine the price level he's comfortable with.

Bitcoin foundation: "Where goest thou"?

[topynate]

Uncomfortable though it might be, holders of BTC on MtGox need to realise that their interests in a bankruptcy are fundamentally opposed to those of USD holders. The right thing to do for BTC holders is to file a second class action seeking to enjoin MtGox from allowing any withdrawals until it can prove it holds sufficient funds to cover both all USD and all BTC deposits.

MtGox has very short terms and conditions; go read them. They make exactly the same warranty on currency holdings and on Bitcoin holdings; thus in an insolvency the Bitcoin holders should seek equal preference. The USD holders would obviously seek to see their USD holdings cashed out before the BTC holders are even looked at, but that's terrible for the BTC holders. It's also very likely to be unfair preference.

What does that mean practically? That all the USD holders could end up with court orders to return their withdrawals.

Oh, and no cheeky conversion of BTC to USD at MtGox's rate, either. Holders of BTC are entitled to fair value. A marketplace in insolvency is by definition not a fair means of valuing assets.

[igorr]

See MtGox,
how it is possible, big international robbery without any help and without any legal responsibility.
Who was behind this   

[mruiter]

I have about 8000 euros in the pipeline to get on my back account.

But just to let you know, while i was reading this thread i received the payment of 1000 euro's (the max of a single day withdrawl) on my account.
It was about 1.5 week late (8 weeks in stead of the 6.5 i'm used to) but i just got it on my account.

So they are still processing withdrawls in Euro's and guess also dollars.

Now let the next 7000 come in 1000 at a time. I withdrew with a couple of days in between so i guess it's gonna take a few days for the next payment.

But i came and there still in business......

[ericools]

I am all for suing for my BTC, there is no chance in hell I'm going to take USD at Gox prices for it.  That would probably be $5 a coin by the time we file anyway at this rate.

Getting BTC is the whole reason for having a Gox account.

[Solarstorm75]

Although I haven't got funds @mtgox anymore, I'll supply you with some information in order to support anybody who wants to sue mtgox because I'm very interested in seeing Mark Karpeles at court for his actions. lost quiet a bit during the last days when leaving mtgox.

throughout the last week immediately after the first press release of mtgox regarding halted btc withdrawals, you could observe huge rhythmic btc dumps @mtgox every 2-5 minutes following always the same pattern ("the whale of mtgox"). the sum of these dumps up to now is approx 140000 btc at an average price of around us$270. ie a us$38 mio sell-off. there were a few stuck levels eg at us$261.24 yesterday and us$148.15 the day before yesterday. these were manipulated levels by the whale serving all asks above these levels every 2-5 minutes. this is very difficult to do through the api of mtgox. but very easy if you're in charge of the order book itself.

Therefore, you'll have to deal with either a very risky investor who is going to sue mtgox as well for his us$38+ mio funds @mtgox pretty soon.

if you take into account that most of the trading fees at mtgox were paid in btc throughout the last years (default setting), it is more likely that the whale rushing all the btc on the market is mtgox resp Mark Karpeles himself. This would be an easy way to transfer the customers fiat collected throughout the last years to his own account reducing his liability in € and us$. if you further take into account, that maybe a good portion of btc stored at mtgox got stolen, mtgox might blame the bitcoin protocol ("transaction malleability") as a cause for the loss. the result: Mark Karpeles got the customers fiat, the customers got stolen btc. the customers could file a charge against an unknown person for stealing their btc.

what does this mean? --> all data on the servers of mtgox must be assured immediately in order to investigate the fraud.

ressources:
http://bitcoincharts.com/
http://bitcoinwisdom.com/
http://coinsight.org/mtgox.html

Bravo! I noticed this several days ago, as written here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=458834.msg5080859#msg5080859

The dumping process started around January 28th with relative small BTC amounts.

Maybe these are the 144 kBTC seized from Silk Road, the FEDs announced to sell.

[zyk]

See MtGox,
how it is possible, big international robbery without any help and without any legal responsibility.
Who was behind this   

just retrieve the data of who sold 250000 BTC at Gox under 300 dollar....and to which accounts the balances went

shouldn´t be so difficult to find out with all those KMR regulations in place......

Unluckily thats in nobodys interest as there are no box -cutters neither drugs involved  to blame  

[Giggety]

I am really happy that mtgox finally is going down but I really feel with the people who have their money trapped there.
I think we should as a community fight these kind of diseases. That CEO can't get away with this.

I follow this very interested and hope for the best.

[igorr]

I am really happy that mtgox finally is going down but I really feel with the people who have their money trapped there.
I think we should as a community fight these kind of diseases. That CEO can't get away with this.

I follow this very interested and hope for the best.

milion bitcoins will be sold from MtGox on Bitstamp and then everything falls !

[nmersulypnem]

Updated post.

[withnail]

Has anyone tried to contact staff members at Gox other than Crap Karp himself? Surely by now some of them are willing to talk?

[igorr]

I think that together we will sue MtGox and Bitstamp !

[raskul]

I think that together we will sue MtGox and Bitstamp !

http://i57.tinypic.com/2nn804.jpg

no igorr, that's just you because you are a troll and nobody likes you.
 

[toknormal]

you've lost everything, and the BTC and money.

no more recovery game is over, now  Bitstamp and BTC-e go to bottom !

You're a ray of sunshine aren't you. Trying to make people feel better ?

[ardana123]

IMO you're all morons for trying to sue Gox. All you're doing is giving them extra problems and thus delaying their progress to make things right more and more. I don't believe Gox is trying to run away with our money, but they are stalling.

[BitCoinNutJob]

IMO you're all morons for trying to sue Gox. All you're doing is giving them extra problems and thus delaying their progress to make things right more and more. I don't believe Gox is trying to run away with our money, but they are stalling.

why are they stalling in your opinion?

[toknormal]

throughout the last week immediately after the first press release of mtgox regarding halted btc withdrawals, you could observe huge rhythmic btc dumps @mtgox every 2-5 minutes....if you take into account that most of the trading fees at mtgox were paid in btc throughout the last years (default setting), it is more likely that the whale rushing all the btc on the market is mtgox resp Mark Karpeles himself

Bravo! I noticed this several days ago, as written here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=458834.msg5080859#msg5080859

Brother JohnF also noticed it and posted a remark to that effect on his "Bitcoin Channel"...

http://www.thebitcoinchannel.com/archives/33713

[ardana123]

IMO you're all morons for trying to sue Gox. All you're doing is giving them extra problems and thus delaying their progress to make things right more and more. I don't believe Gox is trying to run away with our money, but they are stalling.

why are they stalling in your opinion?

Well have a pick. They're involved in lawsuits with among others coinlab. They have legal investigations going due to the silk road debacle. Their USD accounts are locked pending further investigation and possibly until they get the proper licenses. If they divulged all the info about what's going on internally they would probably be through as an exchange and no one would ever use them again. But then again, by stalling and keeping their customers in the dark they are already doing just that. They might also genuinely not be allowed to divulge certain information (eg silk road investigation, lawsuits)

[zyk]

IMO you're all morons for trying to sue Gox. All you're doing is giving them extra problems and thus delaying their progress to make things right more and more. I don't believe Gox is trying to run away with our money, but they are stalling.

The thiefs are selling peoples bitcoins to cash out and run.....and who is the only one who can cash out? MT. Gox and cronies

Its in front of your eyes and you rather convince  yourself  that you are dreaming ?? unbelievable capacity of rosecolored

blinders...where did you buy them?

[CompNsci]

IMO you're all morons for trying to sue Gox. All you're doing is giving them extra problems and thus delaying their progress to make things right more and more. I don't believe Gox is trying to run away with our money, but they are stalling.

I suspect you are right about the not trying to steal and the stalling. OTOH, the markets might be reassured at this point by having the authorities involved. It most certainly is true that Gox's behavior is a classic series of steps taken by companies that are staving off insolvency. They may not be insolvent, but their steps and PR certainly make it appear they are.

[sayulita]

With all sincerity, I wish you guys all the success. It is absolutely criminal what this scumbag has done to each you.

Good luck guys.

[sturle]

I strongly suspect that he wants people suing for USD entirely

USD?!  This advice doesn't make sense unless you have USD on MtGox yourself and wish to buy cheap coins.  The price in e.g. JPY is constantly 2.5% above the price in USD, and a currency which is much more liquid inside Japan, so why not JPY?  Or EUR?  The price in EUR is constantly 2.5% above the price in USD as well.  And since all movement of USD has to go through US banks, you may bump into the USD liquidity problem MtGox has had for a very long time.

The answer from MtGox when people have threatened with lawsuits to get their USD out has been:

03:03 <@MagicalTux> x, a class action in the US to force us to do something the US govt prevents us from doing might not lead you very far

And AFAIK none of the lawsuits have been successful so far.  So why lose 2.5% extra when selling to get a currency which they have problems delivering?  This just doesn't make sense to me.  EUR should be just as good as USD, and more liquid.  JPY even better.  So why USD?

[sturle]

And AFAIK none of the lawsuits have been successful so far.  So why lose 2.5% extra when selling to get a currency which they have problems delivering?  This just doesn't make sense to me.  EUR should be just as good as USD, and more liquid.  JPY even better.  So why USD?

And btw, I received an EUR (SEPA) withdrawal today.  If you are going to sell anyway, this is a way of getting your funds out as fiat without paying money to an expensive law firm.  Works for those who doesn't have enough in their MtGox account to be interesting as well.

[Bobsurplus]

UPDATE:

MTGOX @ $123

[nmersulypnem]

I strongly suspect that he wants people suing for USD entirely

USD?!  This advice doesn't make sense unless you have USD on MtGox yourself and wish to buy cheap coins.  The price in e.g. JPY is constantly 2.5% above the price in USD, and a currency which is much more liquid inside Japan, so why not JPY?  Or EUR?  The price in EUR is constantly 2.5% above the price in USD as well.  And since all movement of USD has to go through US banks, you may bump into the USD liquidity problem MtGox has had for a very long time.

The answer from MtGox when people have threatened with lawsuits to get their USD out has been:

03:03 <@MagicalTux> x, a class action in the US to force us to do something the US govt prevents us from doing might not lead you very far

And AFAIK none of the lawsuits have been successful so far.  So why lose 2.5% extra when selling to get a currency which they have problems delivering?  This just doesn't make sense to me.  EUR should be just as good as USD, and more liquid.  JPY even better.  So why USD?

To be clear, the attorney said he wanted to sue for USD over BTC.  I think what he meant was that he was willing to sue for any fiat currency, not specifically USD.  ...just not BTC.

As for MtGox claiming that a US class action wouldn't work - fine - this isn't a US class action suit.  This is a Japanese suit against a Japanese company, and their funds in a Japanese bank.  This has nothing to do with the US gov't.

[dust]

I won't support any suit that seeks preferential treatment of USD holders over BTC holders.

[raskul]

I won't support any suit that seeks preferential treatment of USD holders over BTC holders.

a good point. can someone find a different lawyer who will be happy to pursue for BTC funds?

[almused]

I just PMed you.

I really hope, this brings us somewhere!

[superduh]

bad decision. your chances of having less money and btc is higher! i don't understand why the OP doesn't realize that simple truth

[raskul]

bad decision. your chances of having less money and btc is higher! i don't understand why the OP doesn't realize that simple truth

perhaps because 'the simple truth' has not been offered by gox?

[igorr]

MtGox 111 usd, and what will happen when of these 500,000 Bitcoin comes to Bitstamp I can only imagine.


View Screen Capture

[dust]

I won't support any suit that seeks preferential treatment of USD holders over BTC holders.

a good point. can someone find a different lawyer who will be happy to pursue for BTC funds?

I'm researching it, but no promises.  I have no experience working with lawyers and no connections, just a lot of money on the line.  It looks like it will be a battle for BTC holders against not only against MtGox but against the OP's legal team as well.

[nmersulypnem]

I won't support any suit that seeks preferential treatment of USD holders over BTC holders.

a good point. can someone find a different lawyer who will be happy to pursue for BTC funds?

I totally get it and I will clarify with the lawyer tonight.  ...but from his perspective, BTC is property whereas fiat is fiat.  What BTC is worth will be an additional point of negotiation and litigation, whereas USD/EUR/JPY is very cut and dry, and I'd rather have this case settled quickly before anything else falls apart.  If you're still in BTC and you'd rather try to recoup the losses so far on Gox, then, yes maybe an alternative lawyer would be better.  

From *my* perspective, I've been in fiat for a couple months, so for me, this is a no brainer.  I just want my F*ing money.  Maybe this particular suit is best for those in cash.

[nmersulypnem]

I won't support any suit that seeks preferential treatment of USD holders over BTC holders.

a good point. can someone find a different lawyer who will be happy to pursue for BTC funds?

I'm researching it, but no promises.  I have no experience working with lawyers and no connections, just a lot of money on the line.  It looks like it will be a battle for BTC holders against not only against MtGox but against the OP's legal team as well.

I was lucky to have an existing relationship with a large litigation firm that has an office in Tokyo.  I was able to call my normal lawyer here, who pointed me to his colleague in the Tokyo office (english fluent speaking).  so it was easy.

If you want to find a lawyer at an English speaking firm, then I'd suggest finding a reputable large litigation firm in the US and googling to see if they have an office in Tokyo.  It's not as hard as it sounds.  You don't need "connections", but you may need to explain bitcoin (keep it simple - just say it's your digital property).

[superduh]

bad decision. your chances of having less money and btc is higher! i don't understand why the OP doesn't realize that simple truth

perhaps because 'the simple truth' has not been offered by gox?

mtgox stated they are working on fixing things and resuming withdrawls.
it is the OP's choice to "buy or sell" during this time.
if withdrawls resume and they cover whatever losses they had then OP will be damaging HIMSELF more and the mtgox users by pushing his suit through. he will also likely get nothing, or close to nothing.
everyone wants to sue in this world but don't understand what outcomes they are facing.. they aren't suing a multibillion multinational company.
people will act with emotions and hear whatever bs their "lawyer" will try selling them to get their fees. that's all.

[dust]

I won't support any suit that seeks preferential treatment of USD holders over BTC holders.

a good point. can someone find a different lawyer who will be happy to pursue for BTC funds?

I totally get it and I will clarify with the lawyer tonight.  ...but from his perspective, BTC is property whereas fiat is fiat.  What BTC is worth will be an additional point of negotiation and litigation, whereas USD/EUR/JPY is very cut and dry, and I'd rather have this case settled quickly before anything else falls apart.  If you're still in BTC and you'd rather try to recoup the losses so far on Gox, then, yes maybe an alternative lawyer would be better.  

From *my* perspective, I've been in fiat for a couple months, so for me, this is a no brainer.  I just want my F*ing money.  Maybe this particular suit is best for those in cash.

I understand your point of view.  The reason I have BTC stuck in gox is because my USD was stuck there for months.  I bought BTC at a 33% discount after the initial announcements about withdrawal delays because I figured my money was stuck anyway.  It is just a shame that we will be fighting each other for a share of Mtgox's assets.

[quone17]

At least in the US, any law firm should work on a contingency basis.  That is, they'd get 1/3 of anything you recover but you won't have to pay legal bills/fees upfront.

[misiu_mp]

I had a lot of cash at mtgox. I was slowly buying coins as it was dropping and now I have mostly bitcoins at mtgox.
What are the chances of participating in this suit by suing for the current actual market value of those coins in USD?

[renee25]

yes!
 send your id's to some random guy that will then identity thief. 

[Vandroiy]

I understand your point of view.  The reason I have BTC stuck in gox is because my USD was stuck there for months.  I bought BTC at a 33% discount after the initial announcements about withdrawal delays because I figured my money was stuck anyway.  It is just a shame that we will be fighting each other for a share of Mtgox's assets.

I did similar trades when the spread became large, but only for a portion of my money.

I'm interested in any details from either plan; just trying to figure out options.

[igorr]

I had a lot of cash at mtgox. I was slowly buying coins as it was dropping and now I have mostly bitcoins at mtgox.
What are the chances of participating in this suit by suing for the current actual market value of those coins in USD?

you do not have any contract with MtGox, so you do not have any chances to get back your money.

[withnail]

After Joey Zasa took out the Commission Michael observed:

Joey Zasa would never pull something like this without backing. He's just muscle, he's an enforcer, he's nothing. He doesn't have the wit for that helicopter attack. He doesn't even have the ambition to wipe out the whole Commission. Certainly not the balls.

So now I put the question to you, gentlemen: Who is backing Mark Krap?

[CompNsci]

Another question for the OP. Will your attorney ask for an order freezing all Mt. Gox accounts immediately?

It seems like one could make the argument for irretrievable harm given the possibility of someone taking off with the BTC. This could possibly justify freezing all their accounts, both their fiat accounts and BTC wallets.

At this point, I suspect it would be best for all concerned, and the BTC markets in general, if some legal authority was over-seeing this process.

[FrictionlessCoin]

UPDATE:

MTGOX @ $123

This could also mean the $1 in MtGox is actually worth 20 cents in the real world.

[raskul]

Another question for the OP. Will your attorney ask for an order freezing all Mt. Gox accounts immediately?

It seems like one could make the argument for irretrievable harm given the possibility of someone taking off with the BTC. This could possibly justify freezing all their accounts, both their fiat accounts and BTC wallets.

At this point, I suspect it would be best for all concerned, and the BTC markets in general, if some legal authority was over-seeing this process.

I think the freezing of all assets is the only way gox customers are ever going to see their funds again.
I know some people will disagree, but this is how the world works. If gox have positive assets (BTC & Fiat) then all their accounts should be frozen immediately, and time given on a proper audit to ensure ALL customers who have funds in their system receive them back. It may take a while, but at least it will take. we are in a situation where the only one doing the taking is Gox itself.

[superduh]

Another question for the OP. Will your attorney ask for an order freezing all Mt. Gox accounts immediately?

It seems like one could make the argument for irretrievable harm given the possibility of someone taking off with the BTC. This could possibly justify freezing all their accounts, both their fiat accounts and BTC wallets.

At this point, I suspect it would be best for all concerned, and the BTC markets in general, if some legal authority was over-seeing this process.

I think the freezing of all assets is the only way gox customers are ever going to see their funds again.
I know some people will disagree, but this is how the world works. If gox have positive assets (BTC & Fiat) then all their accounts should be frozen immediately, and time given on a proper audit to ensure ALL customers who have funds in their system receive them back. It may take a while, but at least it will take. we are in a situation where the only one doing the taking is Gox itself.

just, lol -

people on bitcointalk don't know how the real world works and make too many assumptions.

[raskul]

just, lol -

people on bitcointalk don't know how the real world works and make too many assumptions.

Elaborate please...

[superduh]

just, lol -

people on bitcointalk don't know how the real world works and make too many assumptions.

Elaborate please...

you don't "just" freeze company bank accounts and bitcoins wallet (noone can "freeze" their bitcoin wallet - something people on bitcointalk should know) when you get spooked, everytime you get spooked.

should target have closed down, what about kickstarter, how about any and every website that's went through a technical glitch or some "hack".

if your funds are gone they are gone anyways than whatever you propose is pointless. if the funds are still there than whatever you propose will only make it harder for you to get your money.

companies dont just get "audited" whenever someone on the internet requests so.

[raskul]

just, lol -

people on bitcointalk don't know how the real world works and make too many assumptions.

Elaborate please...

you don't "just" freeze company bank accounts and bitcoins wallet (noone can "freeze" their bitcoin wallet - something people on bitcointalk should know) when you get spooked, everytime you get spooked.

should target have closed down, what about kickstarter, how about any and every website that's went through a technical glitch or some "hack".

if your funds are gone they are gone anyways than whatever you propose is pointless. if the funds are still there than whatever you propose will only make it harder for you to get your money.

companies dont just get "audited" whenever someone on the internet requests so.

research Glasgow Rangers Football Club.

[Bitsinmyhead]

If any of you with fiat stuck on Gox want to get it out instantly instead of waiting for this to play out please PM me. I am currently able to help move about 10k out of there for a 3% fee. PM me to discuss.

[topynate]

If a Japanese or American court orders MtGox not to enable withdrawals of BTC or fiat until they can prove they can cover all customers' deposits, then that is what MtGox will do. Someone just needs to convince a court to make that order. I would be shocked if a good lawyer couldn't make that case given that the collapse in price on MtGox is universally attributed to fear that they're not solvent.

As I said further up the thread, this is the clean option. The messy option is that USD holders get cashed out, MtGox declares it can't cover BTC deposits and becomes insolvent, and then everyone who withdrew fiat becomes a target for clawback based on the principle of unfair preference. If you're a USD holder, do you want to face a lawsuit or multiple lawsuits from the BTC holders?

[ThePriest]

What should I do in order to participate in the law suit?

[Keyser Soze]

What should I do in order to participate in the law suit?

Read the OP.

[zyk]

After Joey Zasa took out the Commission Michael observed:

Joey Zasa would never pull something like this without backing. He's just muscle, he's an enforcer, he's nothing. He doesn't have the wit for that helicopter attack. He doesn't even have the ambition to wipe out the whole Commission. Certainly not the balls.

So now I put the question to you, gentlemen: Who is backing Mark Krap?

laywers...the best ones money can buy...and those who were selling as well knowing the books and the strategy...

[zyk]

If any of you with fiat stuck on Gox want to get it out instantly instead of waiting for this to play out please PM me. I am currently able to help move about 10k out of there for a 3% fee. PM me to discuss.

Me too, but only if you have a Euro- balance stuck there . Please pm me to discuss

[noeel]

Although I haven't got funds @mtgox anymore, I'll supply you with some information in order to support anybody who wants to sue mtgox because I'm very interested in seeing Mark Karpeles at court for his actions. lost quiet a bit during the last days when leaving mtgox.

throughout the last week immediately after the first press release of mtgox regarding halted btc withdrawals, you could observe huge rhythmic btc dumps @mtgox every 2-5 minutes following always the same pattern ("the whale of mtgox"). the sum of these dumps up to now is approx 140000 btc at an average price of around us$270. ie a us$38 mio sell-off. there were a few stuck levels eg at us$261.24 yesterday and us$148.15 the day before yesterday. these were manipulated levels by the whale serving all asks above these levels every 2-5 minutes. this is very difficult to do through the api of mtgox. but very easy if you're in charge of the order book itself.

Therefore, you'll have to deal with either a very risky investor who is going to sue mtgox as well for his us$38+ mio funds @mtgox pretty soon.

if you take into account that most of the trading fees at mtgox were paid in btc throughout the last years (default setting), it is more likely that the whale rushing all the btc on the market is mtgox resp Mark Karpeles himself. This would be an easy way to transfer the customers fiat collected throughout the last years to his own account reducing his liability in € and us$. if you further take into account, that maybe a good portion of btc stored at mtgox got stolen, mtgox might blame the bitcoin protocol ("transaction malleability") as a cause for the loss. the result: Mark Karpeles got the customers fiat, the customers got stolen btc. the customers could file a charge against an unknown person for stealing their btc.

what does this mean? --> all data on the servers of mtgox must be assured immediately in order to investigate the fraud.

ressources:
http://bitcoincharts.com/
http://bitcoinwisdom.com/
http://coinsight.org/mtgox.html

Exactely my observations and thoughts. I posted the following on reddit:

I posted the following post four days ago. Unfortunately the post was downvoted (I guess by people who wanted to weaken posts that may foster sells at the Mt Gox market). Taking into account the new price level, there is - IMHO -now some real need for the truth, so that I want to post my post again and add something to this afterwards.

16 Feb 2014: "I observed the Mt Gox live market for hours yesterday and I have seen that the price decline is caused just by one trader who is kind of always selling off large amount of coins after price is just slightly increasing. Yesterday there was a phase in which somebody sold approx. 250 BTC every few minutes for hours. The same started this morning again. You have seen and you can see that indeed everybody on the market is willing to pay more, but the high sells of this one trader are causing the low price around 330 to 360$ yesterday and below 300$ today. If you have been aware of this, you could made a lot of (book value) profit from it. (...) [What is the reason, why one trader is selling automatically so many coins?] My theory is: MtGox themselves are doing this. They want to drop the price so low, because they want that after it becomes obvious that they are not having the coins, they hope that people will panic sell their book value coins and that they have little money to give then, because of the little fiat balances then."

Another thing that happend at this time was the following: I started to make short trades, so I sold my coins and placed a new order afterwards. Normally I placed every new buy order in front of a big buy order. But then I placed by mistake one "at the top of an existing other big buy order". A new sell was coming in (one of the big ones as aforementioned). The weird thing was, that all coins have been bought from the buy order "under" mine up to exactely my Satoshi (I hope you all get what I mean, I am not a native speaker). This was not coincidence, the numbers have been completely random. For me, this is one more argument that Mt Gox (with market transparency) made these big sells.

The plan of Mt Gox could be the following. (They can do this, even if they do not have the coins.)

    1. Sell so many coins, that the market is completely crashed and that there is no more Fiat money in the system, that can make buys.
    2. Wait until people get used to the new price level at Gox. Avoid people putting too much new fiat money into the system, by fostering speculations about insolvency.
    3. At some point there are enough coins to buy to make a big profit.

And of course both is possible, Mt Gox may have lost some coins by theft and are doing this strategy to get equal balances again, or they are just megalomaniac and want to own a bigger piece of the bitcoin cake.

[BitCoinNutJob]

^ if thats the case & i think you might be right i'd rather just wait it out & just accept it

[BTCat]

Wallstreet and bankers will buy up all cheap BTC's and then it goes up again. If the community is weak they will get it cheap, if the community is strong they will have to pay a premium.

[S3052]

Although I haven't got funds @mtgox anymore, I'll supply you with some information in order to support anybody who wants to sue mtgox because I'm very interested in seeing Mark Karpeles at court for his actions. lost quiet a bit during the last days when leaving mtgox.

throughout the last week immediately after the first press release of mtgox regarding halted btc withdrawals, you could observe huge rhythmic btc dumps @mtgox every 2-5 minutes following always the same pattern ("the whale of mtgox"). the sum of these dumps up to now is approx 140000 btc at an average price of around us$270. ie a us$38 mio sell-off. there were a few stuck levels eg at us$261.24 yesterday and us$148.15 the day before yesterday. these were manipulated levels by the whale serving all asks above these levels every 2-5 minutes. this is very difficult to do through the api of mtgox. but very easy if you're in charge of the order book itself.

Therefore, you'll have to deal with either a very risky investor who is going to sue mtgox as well for his us$38+ mio funds @mtgox pretty soon.

if you take into account that most of the trading fees at mtgox were paid in btc throughout the last years (default setting), it is more likely that the whale rushing all the btc on the market is mtgox resp Mark Karpeles himself. This would be an easy way to transfer the customers fiat collected throughout the last years to his own account reducing his liability in € and us$. if you further take into account, that maybe a good portion of btc stored at mtgox got stolen, mtgox might blame the bitcoin protocol ("transaction malleability") as a cause for the loss. the result: Mark Karpeles got the customers fiat, the customers got stolen btc. the customers could file a charge against an unknown person for stealing their btc.

what does this mean? --> all data on the servers of mtgox must be assured immediately in order to investigate the fraud.

ressources:
http://bitcoincharts.com/
http://bitcoinwisdom.com/
http://coinsight.org/mtgox.html

Exactely my observations and thoughts. I posted the following on reddit:

I posted the following post four days ago. Unfortunately the post was downvoted (I guess by people who wanted to weaken posts that may foster sells at the Mt Gox market). Taking into account the new price level, there is - IMHO -now some real need for the truth, so that I want to post my post again and add something to this afterwards.

16 Feb 2014: "I observed the Mt Gox live market for hours yesterday and I have seen that the price decline is caused just by one trader who is kind of always selling off large amount of coins after price is just slightly increasing. Yesterday there was a phase in which somebody sold approx. 250 BTC every few minutes for hours. The same started this morning again. You have seen and you can see that indeed everybody on the market is willing to pay more, but the high sells of this one trader are causing the low price around 330 to 360$ yesterday and below 300$ today. If you have been aware of this, you could made a lot of (book value) profit from it. (...) [What is the reason, why one trader is selling automatically so many coins?] My theory is: MtGox themselves are doing this. They want to drop the price so low, because they want that after it becomes obvious that they are not having the coins, they hope that people will panic sell their book value coins and that they have little money to give then, because of the little fiat balances then."

Another thing that happend at this time was the following: I started to make short trades, so I sold my coins and placed a new order afterwards. Normally I placed every new buy order in front of a big buy order. But then I placed by mistake one "at the top of an existing other big buy order". A new sell was coming in (one of the big ones as aforementioned). The weird thing was, that all coins have been bought from the buy order "under" mine up to exactely my Satoshi (I hope you all get what I mean, I am not a native speaker). This was not coincidence, the numbers have been completely random. For me, this is one more argument that Mt Gox (with market transparency) made these big sells.

The plan of Mt Gox could be the following. (They can do this, even if they do not have the coins.)

    1. Sell so many coins, that the market is completely crashed and that there is no more Fiat money in the system, that can make buys.
    2. Wait until people get used to the new price level at Gox. Avoid people putting too much new fiat money into the system, by fostering speculations about insolvency.
    3. At some point there are enough coins to buy to make a big profit.

And of course both is possible, Mt Gox may have lost some coins by theft and are doing this strategy to get equal balances again, or they are just megalomaniac and want to own a bigger piece of the bitcoin cake.

If only a tiny part if this is true, MtGox should be raided by the police immediately and shut down

[zemario]

Wallstreet and bankers will buy up all cheap BTC's and then it goes up again. If the community is weak they will get it cheap, if the community is strong they will have to pay a premium.

Community? No, I care about my money. Community is cool and all, but you cannot possibly expect markets to be driven by community dynamics. I'm not so worried if bankers get it dirt cheap, I'll make sure I'll take advantage of such market situation too.
It's each and everyone's call. Do I care if hundreds of people I don't know get burned with their speculations on bitcoin because me or other bitcoiners didn't held strong as a community and instead sell out? Hell noes! This is money we are talking about. I'll go as far as tell you that I am sorry that I am stating the cold hard true. But it is a bit of advice for everyone, relly on comunity thinking and you'll see people getting rich while your assets' value deteriorate.
Perhaps those who are that naive do need enforced reality check.

[quone17]

Another question for the OP. Will your attorney ask for an order freezing all Mt. Gox accounts immediately?

It seems like one could make the argument for irretrievable harm given the possibility of someone taking off with the BTC. This could possibly justify freezing all their accounts, both their fiat accounts and BTC wallets.

At this point, I suspect it would be best for all concerned, and the BTC markets in general, if some legal authority was over-seeing this process.

Agreed.  If this was in the US you could def get an injunction.  However I don't know the law in Japan.  Even if you could sue Gox in the US, which I think you could, you would only be able to freeze their US assets (are there any?)

[superduh]

Another question for the OP. Will your attorney ask for an order freezing all Mt. Gox accounts immediately?

It seems like one could make the argument for irretrievable harm given the possibility of someone taking off with the BTC. This could possibly justify freezing all their accounts, both their fiat accounts and BTC wallets.

At this point, I suspect it would be best for all concerned, and the BTC markets in general, if some legal authority was over-seeing this process.

Agreed.  If this was in the US you could def get an injunction.  However I don't know the law in Japan.  Even if you could sue Gox in the US, which I think you could, you would only be able to freeze their US assets (are there any?)

already frozen

[okashira]

Those of you with BTC in Gox, and want them out at higher then $123 per coin, you can get them out now via https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/ at ~0.45 per bitcoin. And you get them now. Just FYI for those who don't want to risk it.

[nmersulypnem]

Updated OP

[julz]

I think this is premature - and inviting intervention by the authorities at this point is likely to be counterproductive to all our interests.

If it comes down to liquidation - you can bet the lawyers will eat a huge slice of the pie.


Frankly I think all this panicking is unwarranted. 
People have been crowing about MTGox being 'fractional reserve' for years without evidence - and now the the anti-gox sentiment has reached hysterical proportions.  Yes, clearly there are real problems at the exchange - but my bet is they have more than enough BTC to cover balances.

[TurboK]

Those of you with BTC in Gox, and want them out at higher then $123 per coin, you can get them out now via https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/ at ~0.45 per bitcoin. And you get them now. Just FYI for those who don't want to risk it.

Nice, thanks!

[repentance]

If a Japanese or American court orders MtGox not to enable withdrawals of BTC or fiat until they can prove they can cover all customers' deposits, then that is what MtGox will do. Someone just needs to convince a court to make that order. I would be shocked if a good lawyer couldn't make that case given that the collapse in price on MtGox is universally attributed to fear that they're not solvent.

MtGox may comply with an order from a Japanese court, but based on the Bitcoinica experience they're not going to comply with orders of foreign courts unless they have assets located within the jurisdiction of those courts -which at this stage seems to be Japan and Poland.

People need to remember that they're already embroiled in existing legal actions (both lawsuits and investigations related to money laundering).  Regulators could shut them down at any moment even if they are solvent and other legal actions could drive them out of business long before there's a judgement on any new lawsuit.

It's worrying that Mark is unwilling to make a public statement reassuring people that MtGox has sufficient funds to cover all users balances.  Whenever a company is continuing to allow money to come in but finding more and more ways to delay outgoing payments, the issue of their solvency is going to be front and centre and needs to be addressed urgently.  

MtGox may have no legal obligation to make its accounts public, but an auditor's statement would certainly go along way towards reassuring people that it's financially sound.  The absence of such reassurance is especially baffling given that concerns about a company's solvency can sink it even if it's viable.  It's difficult not to wonder whether MtGox isn't giving that assurance because they're unwilling to make a public statement regarding their solvency which they know to be false (not sure whether this could open them up to further legal consequences in Japan).

People who believe MtGox couldn't possibly be insolvent because of the amount of revenue they've taken in are nuts.  Billion dollar corporations have become insolvent in the past and we know that MtGox has spent large amounts of money on legal proceedings, had funds frozen by financial institutions, and had funds seized.  We have no idea how much it may also have lost to fraud and hacks.  Financial institutions tend not to make such information public because it undermines customer confidence as well as publicising the fact that they are vulnerable, but the amount of losses is not going to be zero.

[okashira]

It's ironic.

To get civil legal assistance, you need to be in USD in MtGox. But, to be in USD means not buying GoxCoins for $95 each.
If you have verified account, you can convert GoxCoins to Bitcoins IMMEDIATELY for 0.35 B/G on bitcoin builder. That's $~200 per GoxCoin or ~$200 per $100 in your account.

So, I wonder why GoxDollar holders are not taking advantage of this arbitration?

[okashira]

It's ironic.

To get civil legal assistance, you need to be in USD in MtGox. But, to be in USD means not buying GoxCoins for $95 each.
If you have verified account, you can convert GoxCoins to Bitcoins IMMEDIATELY for 0.35 B/G on bitcoin builder. That's $~200 per GoxCoin or ~$200 per $100 in your account.

So, I wonder why GoxDollar holders are not taking advantage of this arbitration?

**Notes sudden drop in GoxCoin/Bitcoin value since my post**
Ill happily BTC take donations from those who got some money out because of my suggestion. :-D
1PYfYHfDdHbSb2srmJtKWG1f4xm61KuDNV

[okashira]

If a Japanese or American court orders MtGox not to enable withdrawals of BTC or fiat until they can prove they can cover all customers' deposits, then that is what MtGox will do. Someone just needs to convince a court to make that order. I would be shocked if a good lawyer couldn't make that case given that the collapse in price on MtGox is universally attributed to fear that they're not solvent.

MtGox may comply with an order from a Japanese court, but based on the Bitcoinica experience they're not going to comply with orders of foreign courts unless they have assets located within the jurisdiction of those courts -which at this stage seems to be Japan and Poland.

People need to remember that they're already embroiled in existing legal actions (both lawsuits and investigations related to money laundering).  Regulators could shut them down at any moment even if they are solvent and other legal actions could drive them out of business long before there's a judgement on any new lawsuit.

It's worrying that Mark is unwilling to make a public statement reassuring people that MtGox has sufficient funds to cover all users balances.  Whenever a company is continuing to allow money to come in but finding more and more ways to delay outgoing payments, the issue of their solvency is going to be front and centre and needs to be addressed urgently.  

MtGox may have no legal obligation to make its accounts public, but an auditor's statement would certainly go along way towards reassuring people that it's financially sound.  The absence of such reassurance is especially baffling given that concerns about a company's solvency can sink it even if it's viable.  It's difficult not to wonder whether MtGox isn't giving that assurance because they're unwilling to make a public statement regarding their solvency which they know to be false (not sure whether this could open them up to further legal consequences in Japan).

People who believe MtGox couldn't possibly be insolvent because of the amount of revenue they've taken in are nuts.  Billion dollar corporations have become insolvent in the past and we know that MtGox has spent large amounts of money on legal proceedings, had funds frozen by financial institutions, and had funds seized.  We have no idea how much it may also have lost to fraud and hacks.  Financial institutions tend not to make such information public because it undermines customer confidence as well as publicising the fact that they are vulnerable, but the amount of losses is not going to be zero.

I agree. If MtGox was solvent, it is highly likely they would make a statement as such. If they were not solvent, it is 99.9% likely they would NOT make a statement as such (any lawyer would recommend that.)

[Spekulatius]

Wondering what happens next week..

Anyway, i hope this pressure finally leads to some constructive changes at Tibanne and they come up with an acceptable solution before anybodys account gets frozen or court orders are issued. Keep up the pressure!

[repentance]

Wondering what happens next week..

Anyway, i hope this pressure finally leads to some constructive changes at Tibanne and they come up with an acceptable solution before anybodys account gets frozen or court orders are issued. Keep up the pressure!

The likelihood that anything they do now is going to be too little too late has to be considered.  They have problems happening on multiple fronts and their inability to release user funds in a timely manner might not even be the biggest of their problems.

[FrictionlessCoin]

Live MtGox Protest

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/mtgox-protest

[misiu_mp]

I had a lot of cash at mtgox. I was slowly buying coins as it was dropping and now I have mostly bitcoins at mtgox.
What are the chances of participating in this suit by suing for the current actual market value of those coins in USD?

you do not have any contract with MtGox, so you do not have any chances to get back your money.

Don't my possessions of gox coins count for something? I mean they do have an obligation to compensate for those don't they? Just as those which have gox usd.

[repentance]

I had a lot of cash at mtgox. I was slowly buying coins as it was dropping and now I have mostly bitcoins at mtgox.
What are the chances of participating in this suit by suing for the current actual market value of those coins in USD?

you do not have any contract with MtGox, so you do not have any chances to get back your money.

Don't my possessions of gox coins count for something? I mean they do have an obligation to compensate for those don't they? Just as those which have gox usd.

Their ToS acknowledges user funds as belonging to users.  While it contains boilerplate indemnity clauses, it would be extremely difficult for MtGox to argue that it has no contract with its users. 

The full extent of their liability is a bit less clear because of the disclaimers and the question of whether they have been deceiving their users, but they've got no hope of arguing that there was no "meeting of the minds" regarding the purpose for which people used their exchange and the expectation that user funds would be available on request.

[halcyon]

what´s the threshold in goxmoney/goxmoney where it makes sense to participate in the lawsuit?
Have only a few coins there, guess I should not participate due to the enormous costs of the lawsuit?

[Vandroiy]

It's ironic.

To get civil legal assistance, you need to be in USD in MtGox. But, to be in USD means not buying GoxCoins for $95 each.
If you have verified account, you can convert GoxCoins to Bitcoins IMMEDIATELY for 0.35 B/G on bitcoin builder. That's $~200 per GoxCoin or ~$200 per $100 in your account.

So, I wonder why GoxDollar holders are not taking advantage of this arbitration?

Account locked for no reason. Support doesn't answer.

I'd love to reduce my risk. I don't recall dealing with Bitinstant or any other problematic site. But my chances of getting level 2 verified in this mess are dim. I can blindly send verification docs without a request, but without any info from support they might reject or ignore them or whatever.

I guess if this continues into next week, OP's prediction will come true, and Gox will be buried in lawsuits -- in the hope that there's enough left to claim.

[Aditya]

Please open donation, a Bitcoin donation preferably.

The purpose of this law suit is not just to get your money out of Mt Gox. If you just want to get your money out of Mt Gox, you can sell your GoxCoin for real Bitcoin. But it's rather to tell another Bitcoin exchange that you may get into trouble if you mess with people's money.

I am pretty sure people will support this and give bitcoin donation even they are not Mt Gox customer.

[techgeek]

Live MtGox Protest

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/mtgox-protest

Whoah, this is priceless. 

[bitjuicy]

I've just posted an article about your pending lawsuit at www.bitjuice.com (http://bitjuice.com/2014/02/21/mt-gox-multi-plaintiff-suit/) and tweeted about it as well (bitjuicenews). Good luck to you and your fellow plaintiffs. When you are able, would love to communicate so can update readers.

[Nagle]

MtGox may comply with an order from a Japanese court, but based on the Bitcoinica experience they're not going to comply with orders of foreign courts unless they have assets located within the jurisdiction of those courts -which at this stage seems to be Japan and Poland.

Mt. Gox is complying with orders of the U.S. District Court in Seattle in the Coinbase case.

Mt. Gox has an explicit legal presence in the US, in Delaware. They established a dummy office so they could register with FinCen. That makes them subject to US courts.

There's so much trade between the US and Japan that the mechanisms for resolving contract disputes are all in place and well worked out. The Government of Japan even has offices in the US to help. That's part of what the Japan External Trade Organization does.

[CompNsci]

Please open donation, a Bitcoin donation preferably.

The purpose of this law suit is not just to get your money out of Mt Gox. If you just want to get your money out of Mt Gox, you can sell your GoxCoin for real Bitcoin. But it's rather to tell another Bitcoin exchange that you may get into trouble if you mess with people's money.

I am pretty sure people will support this and give bitcoin donation even they are not Mt Gox customer.

Yes, exchanges need to know that if they continue with this type of incompetence and with large sums, eventually people will take legal action and force them to behave reasonably.

I will donate to help defray costs.

[dynodog]

This supposed lawsuit sounds like a joke to me.  If someone converts property, the remedy is monetary damages.  Those damages will be based on the cost to obtain the property for the victim which was converted.  The fair market value of bitcoin converted are the damages.  the idea that the victim must be or should be in cash with mtgox is completely wrong.  I don't buy what this attorney is supposedly saying that it is better to have dollars instead of bitcoin. 

Consider if you entrust your gold coin with someone and the value of the gold coin is $1000.  The person later tells you that you will not get the gold coin back.  You sue.  You are not required to sell the right to this gold coin to then have a valid suit against the person.  You can sue for the value of gold coin (or under certain circumstances the gold coin itself).  If the fair market value of the gold coin is $2000 at the time of the trial, that is what you would receive as a judgment. 

I simply don't believe that a number of people are all selling to comply with the supposed direction of this one attorney, especially when the idea that your case is stronger by being in cash instead of bitcoin is wrong. 

[halcyon]

Live MtGox Protest

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/mtgox-protest

japanese police has banned the protest 

http://www.coindesk.com/japanese-police-shut-down-protest-gox/

[Aditya]

Even if they open Bitcoin withdrawal tomorrow. Please Continue this Lawsuit!

[dynodog]

Even if they open Bitcoin withdrawal tomorrow. Please Continue this Lawsuit!

on what grounds?  and if you ended up getting back the bitcoins and/or the money in your account, what are the damages?  even if there were damages due to delays in getting customers their bitcoin or money back, given that bitcoin is a new technology, and the company wanted to ensure that customers were not being double paid, the court would likely not find the company liable for any damages due to the delays.   

My gut tells me that a large number of people are not selling bitcoin on mtgox; instead, it's a few whales.  The question is why? 

[CompNsci]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website, I think one could go ahead other incidental damages and certainly interest on the amounts involved for the length of the delay.

The fraud-like aspects, not properly disclosing, could be strong grounds for additional damages (at least if Japanese law is similar to the US in this regard).

Please continue the lawsuit. They need to pay damages for the delays and it will serve as a warning to others.

[repentance]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website, I think one could go ahead other incidental damages and certainly interest on the amounts involved for the length of the delay.

The fraud-like aspects, not properly disclosing, could be strong grounds for additional damages (at least if Japanese law is similar to the US in this regard).

Please continue the lawsuit. They need to pay damages for the delays and it will serve as a warning to others.

A lawsuit which isn't going to be determined for a very long time isn't going to influence the behaviour of other services now.  If it was, then MtGox would already have changed its behaviour as conversion, negligence and breach of contract are all causes of action in the Cartmell et al lawsuit against Bitcoinica.

It's also only going to "serve as a warning to others" at some time in the future if the plaintiffs actually prevail.  If they don't, then it's only going to further entrench undesirable behaviour by Bitcoin services.

It's also worth remembering that while you can sue anyone for anything in the US, that's not the case everywhere else.  Before you even consider litigation in a foreign jurisdiction you need to first establish how its legal system differs from your own.  What options are open to you in the US is pretty irrelevant if the US isn't the jurisdiction involved.  You need the advice of experienced litigators in the jurisdiction where you'll be filing rather than guessing about what might be possible under a legal system with which you're unfamiliar.

[sturle]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

The reasons for JPY and EUR delays are properly explained IMO.  The reason for USD delays are not explained for legal reasons which they aren't allowed to talk about.  All USD transfers must pass through a US bank, which gives the US government full control.  MagicalTux have given plenty of hints on IRC and Twitter that the US government is involved in blocking those.  Good luck in getting a Japanese court to overrule the US government regarding USD transfers.  AFAIK all attempts of legal action against MtGox in the US to get USD out have failed, and to this day I haven't got a proper explanation of why all the attempts have failed.

[repentance]

AFAIK all attempts of legal action against MtGox in the US to get USD out have failed, and to this day I haven't got a proper explanation of why all the attempts have failed.

Mark's comment that a US court isn't going to order MtGox to do something they're not allowed to do under US law probably has some merit.  He's being an ass about it but no court can force the financial institutions with which MtGox deals to allow them to move unlimited amounts of USD, when those limits are a result of compliance with US law. 

MtGox should probably have just abandoned the USD market altogether as their "workarounds" never pan out and they keep opening themselves up to more and more potential consequences by continuing to serve that market.  Unfortunately, the very real limitations imposed on USD transactions due to compliance with various AML laws and treaties also benefit companies wishing to hide their financial instability.

[raskul]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

the 5% is fair if ye want yer money

[CompNsci]

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

Is it explained properly for a new user who creates an account and then sells some bitcoin, expecting to receive the proceeds? I believe that will be the question before the court in determining if there is a fraudulent inducement. Maybe I missed it, but the last time I looked there was not even a mention of the manual withdrawal and 5% fee on the main withdrawal process pages.

Those of us who read the forums or the IRC may discover these things, but those don't strike me as reasonable disclosure.

[CompNsci]

A lawsuit which isn't going to be determined for a very long time isn't going to influence the behaviour of other services now.  If it was, then MtGox would already have changed its behaviour as conversion, negligence and breach of contract are all causes of action in the Cartmell et al lawsuit against Bitcoinica.

It's also only going to "serve as a warning to others" at some time in the future if the plaintiffs actually prevail.  If they don't, then it's only going to further entrench undesirable behaviour by Bitcoin services.

Probably best to attack them on both the civil and criminal fronts simultaneously. I'm not a fan of regulation, as it borders on prior restraint, though I certainly think we should bring all legal means to bear once the crime or tort has been committed.

[Bit_Happy]

Wallstreet and bankers will buy up all cheap BTC's and then it goes up again. If the community is weak they will get it cheap, if the community is strong they will have to pay a premium.

Greedy people are weak when the prices fall quickly.

[Nagle]

Another legal option in Japan is to take Mt. Gox into involuntary bankruptcy. That option is available when a company is demonstrably far behind on paying multiple creditors. That's not hard to prove here.

Bingham has an overview of Japan's various forms of bankruptcy, but it's oriented more towards large corporate bankruptcies in which lending banks are the major creditors. That's not the case here. This is likely to be a liquidation. (If you go looking for bankruptcy law in Japan, be aware that it changed in 2004-2005, and older documents are not too relevant.)

A big advantage of bankruptcy is that the process starts fast. Within a week or two of filing, injunctions, trustees, and examiners are in place, and the old management is no longer in a position to remove assets.

[Boggletek]

If we lost money in the dump from their news can we join in?

Seems to me their ignorance cost everyone greatly.

[tclo]

Don't sue them until we all get our BTC out.

[morningtime]

And AFAIK none of the lawsuits have been successful so far.  So why lose 2.5% extra when selling to get a currency which they have problems delivering?  This just doesn't make sense to me.  EUR should be just as good as USD, and more liquid.  JPY even better.  So why USD?

And btw, I received an EUR (SEPA) withdrawal today.  If you are going to sell anyway, this is a way of getting your funds out as fiat without paying money to an expensive law firm.  Works for those who doesn't have enough in their MtGox account to be interesting as well.

Great idea, if the price goes back up on Mt.Gox, I'll sell for fiat and withdraw using SEPA.

[ebolivia]

If what I'm reading in this thread is true, and multiple parties are initiating lawsuits against Mt.Gox, then I really don't see how they are going to make it through this inevitable shit storm.  The last I read Mt. Gox has around a millions of clients (correct me if i'm wrong).  OP offered to bring others on board his multi plaintiff lawsuit (specifically stating those with more than $10k at stake), only to receive such an overwhelming response that he had to extend a couple of days in order to line up who was going to go in on it.  I have to imagine that most whales have already initiated their own suits.  This just doesn't look good.  I really don't think this issue has gotten enough attention.

[pinarello]

And AFAIK none of the lawsuits have been successful so far.  So why lose 2.5% extra when selling to get a currency which they have problems delivering?  This just doesn't make sense to me.  EUR should be just as good as USD, and more liquid.  JPY even better.  So why USD?

And btw, I received an EUR (SEPA) withdrawal today.  If you are going to sell anyway, this is a way of getting your funds out as fiat without paying money to an expensive law firm.  Works for those who doesn't have enough in their MtGox account to be interesting as well.

Great idea, if the price goes back up on Mt.Gox, I'll sell for fiat and withdraw using SEPA.

more than 6 weeks waiting, still no money, also witdrawing using sepa is on hold.

and most of all my money doesnt show in my account eather, so were is it?

[Luno]

Please explain this to me, I still don't get it:

Earlier in this thread, page 4 or 5, there was a claim that USD has never been withdrawn by costumers from GOX Japan because of legal demands, and they were not to disclose the fact it was impossible???

This sounds extremely strange in my ears. The only sensible reason would be that they had agreed with their suing ex partner (Coin lab) that all US business and assets were their property, but why would that be a secret, and why would all parties interests be to make money move asap for the sake of the value of GOX and assets anyway?

The bank holding their USD balances could be under pressure and freeze their accounts and not giving a reason Gox would be proud of disclosing. -That I can understand.

That would however not make it impossible for Gox to honour USD costumers, they could buy USD in one of their other banks if a costumer wanted to withdraw. That would carry additional fees but it would not be an argument to stall.

Is a costumer trading account balance denominated in USD proof of them having a similar amount USD some where? -not necessary, they have not been operating as a bank, so how can they have legal obligations to keep a costumers balances in the right currency. They do however, would have to have assets in currencies and BTC totalling the amount owed to costumers to stay solvent in a square sense.

So are the USD "claimed" held on Gox "evidence" in an investigation somehow? That would not either be an excuse as they still could honour costumers out of their own pockets.

Do the US have a certain magical ability to judge someone's USD holdings untouchable? I think not, that would destroy US economy by reducing trust in USD if that was common practice, they are not North Korea.

I've had an USD denominated only account there always, and I have never intended or tried to withdraw them as USD, only as EUR to my own bank. I have never speculated if they i reality had USD to pay me, as they forcefully would be converted to EUR by my own bank when they arrived.

Gox had also made it clear that they could not transfer USD to my bank account and they had to be converted, so I have not in reality been a holder or creditor denominated in USD or have I?

[Sydboy]

I'm in Australia and those swines have 11.25 Bitcoins of mine.
My plan was to sell them to the guys buying Gox Bitcoins but now I don't think that is a good idea.
I would like to get involved to some degree. 11 Bitcoins isn't a fortune, but it does add up to 5 or 6k, a little more in AUD.

How do I join up ?

[bananas]

Cool, keep us informed of the lawsuit.

[analytics]

This is likely another scam/lie to manipulate the market.  No evidence at all.   Converting your bitcoin to USD will drive the price down.

Unless this person can show who they are and evidence of a lawsuit, you would be wise to ignore this user and his posts.

[bananas]

This is likely another scam/lie to manipulate the market.  No evidence at all.   Converting your bitcoin to USD will drive the price down.

Unless this person can show who they are and evidence of a lawsuit, you would be wise to ignore this user and his posts.

Lawsuits have a number that enables you to check it out on a governamental site. Let's wait him provide us the number and link to check it out.

[dynodog]

This is likely another scam/lie to manipulate the market.  No evidence at all.   Converting your bitcoin to USD will drive the price down.

Unless this person can show who they are and evidence of a lawsuit, you would be wise to ignore this user and his posts.

Agreed.  The claim that the attorney told him to sell bitcoin for cash so that the suit would go forward easier makes no sense at all.  The author should provide a link to the petition that was filed with the court when filed.

Also, simply state the name of the law firm handling the case. 

[caspar.holzinger]

Also, simply state the name of the law firm handling the case. 

From a former quote, here is your lawfirm:

I have contacted the offices of my law firm (Bingham) in Tokyo to begin proceedings to sue Mt.Gox / Tibanne Ltd / Mark Karpeles for my USD funds.  He

[zyk]

Even if they open Bitcoin withdrawal tomorrow. Please Continue this Lawsuit!

on what grounds?  and if you ended up getting back the bitcoins and/or the money in your account, what are the damages?  even if there were damages due to delays in getting customers their bitcoin or money back, given that bitcoin is a new technology, and the company wanted to ensure that customers were not being double paid, the court would likely not find the company liable for any damages due to the delays.   

My gut tells me that a large number of people are not selling bitcoin on mtgox; instead, it's a few whales.  The question is why? 

Cause the whales can withdraw and of course don´t need to speculate about Marks accounting.....

And as its a Limited company why not get everything out of the shell before the idiots come sueing ?

[dafqok]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

The reasons for JPY and EUR delays are properly explained IMO.  The reason for USD delays are not explained for legal reasons which they aren't allowed to talk about.  All USD transfers must pass through a US bank, which gives the US government full control.  MagicalTux have given plenty of hints on IRC and Twitter that the US government is involved in blocking those.  Good luck in getting a Japanese court to overrule the US government regarding USD transfers.  AFAIK all attempts of legal action against MtGox in the US to get USD out have failed, and to this day I haven't got a proper explanation of why all the attempts have failed.

If that is true, one should bark at the very system you are trying to ask for help: the governments. IF that is true, this is where anger and discontent shall be unloaded. I of course see validity in terms of money laundry and what not, but not by obfuscating the process of interventions, leading to this utmost alienation of people.

[brheizm]

has anyone else pm the topic starter about this? - and received an answer?! pls respond
i did not ever get answered, but had good reasons to join this suit.

to me it seems like this was made up to drive the price down on mtgox, and with success

[Luno]

has anyone else pm the topic starter about this? - and received an answer?! pls respond
i did not ever get answered, but had good reasons to join this suit.

to me it seems like this was made up to drive the price down on mtgox, and with success

Everything here is considered price fixing. If he is wrong and the court dismisses the complaint, then it's a good thing don't you think?

 

[Kroenen]

If anyone is seriously considering this I would suggest you look at the legal 500 list.

Hughes Hubbard and Reed comes to mind as a massive firms with an international office in Tokoyo.

The Japanese legal precedent regarding contracts is far different from American law in regards to what is considered a contract in their view. A firm representing this case is going to set legal history and more than likely shape all future litigation throughout the westernized world.

The firm representing this case, if there is actually one which is sounding dubious at best, would not be bashful or quite about giving out their name, or actively seeking clients. The only reason they are seeking a small group and speed in this case as they can quickly set a precedent regarding future actions, and take a lead position in seeking further injunctions.

Gox may have a virtual office located within the U.S., but it would be difficult to proceed with any action in this country based solely on that unless there has been clear cut evidence of them committing crimes on U.S. soil, in which a civil action could parallel criminal proceedings. However anyone old enough to remember the Enron and Comp USA debacle should realize any remuneration from said actions will more than likely be non existent. 

This was under most views all speculative action and monetary losses for those in btc will have little to no meaningful value. Those in USD are holding a backed currency which has a non speculative valuation and loosing funds that were in fiat through any action gives cause to this suit.


In summation it would be advisable for those with large sums to locate their own reputable firms and seek advisement from attorneys based in Japan. Hopefully people are not blindly sending money to a group trying to cash in further on the Gox meltdown.

[julz]

So, let's say you impatient folk sue based on all this hearsay and rumour... and it turns out there was enough BTC after all.

It's been what.. a week or so into a technical issue and you guys want to mire MTGox in lawsuits?  Do you know how much value this will eat in legal costs?
I think you've got big dumb balls to get involved with this so soon - as MTGox will go you for costs + damages if you're wrong.

[WompRat]

So, let's say you impatient folk sue based on all this hearsay and rumour... and it turns out there was enough BTC after all.

It's been what.. a week or so into a technical issue and you guys want to mire MTGox in lawsuits?  Do you know how much value this will eat in legal costs?
I think you've got big dumb balls to get involved with this so soon - as MTGox will go you for costs + damages if you're wrong.

MtGox have shown clear disregard for the very large sums of money that some people have entrusted them with.  Their communication has been poor bordering on the incompetent.  To top it off they chose to move offices in the middle of this crisis rather than work non stop until it was fixed.  They may have legitimate reasons why they can’t give people their bitcoins, but there should be no reason not to repay the fiat that is owed.  Either they have it or they don’t and at this point it seems the only way to find out is through a legal process.  Hopefully they will just transfer the funds to the law firm and this can be settled quickly.  If not then they will at least have to explain themselves in court.

[julz]

So, let's say you impatient folk sue based on all this hearsay and rumour... and it turns out there was enough BTC after all.

It's been what.. a week or so into a technical issue and you guys want to mire MTGox in lawsuits?  Do you know how much value this will eat in legal costs?
I think you've got big dumb balls to get involved with this so soon - as MTGox will go you for costs + damages if you're wrong.

MtGox have shown clear disregard for the very large sums of money that some people have entrusted them with.  Their communication has been poor bordering on the incompetent.  To top it off they chose to move offices in the middle of this crisis rather than work non stop until it was fixed.  They may have legitimate reasons why they can’t give people their bitcoins, but there should be no reason not to repay the fiat that is owed.  Either they have it or they don’t and at this point it seems the only way to find out is through a legal process.  Hopefully they will just transfer the funds to the law firm and this can be settled quickly.  If not then they will at least have to explain themselves in court.

I agree that their communication has been woeful.

Moving offices doesn't surprise or concern me. If I had employees working at an office that was being picketed - I'd be doing the same. It doesn't take much for people to be concerned for their safety, and you'd have employees on stress leave or unwilling to come in to work... not to mention getting your landlord and other businesses in the building offside.

Getting them to "explain" things to a Japanese court unfamiliar with Bitcoins sounds like a nightmare process to me.
It's entirely possible the court would go for the simplest (and dumbest) of options and force conversion of all BTC to yen at some low exchange rate for the purposes of resolving this in a way familiar to them.  That would be unfortunate for MTGox BTC holders.

I don't think a legal exercise in fishing for information, which may very well halt business operations, would be in the interests of those with funds in MTGox, fiat or BTC.

As for your claim that 'there should be no reason not to repay the fiat that is owed' - the slow withdrawal issues are a well-known separate issue unrelated to the BTC withdrawal problem.
Certainly there are reports of Euro & Yen withdrawals being processed recently, albeit slowly.  That is a function of their difficulties in processing huge volumes through the traditional banking system with its AML and verification requirements; and is the issue Roger Ver reported on recently when he stated something to the effect that it was not a liquidity issue.

I have significant holdings of BTC on MTGox, and I'm more concerned about the risks of premature legal action than anything.  

[WompRat]

I agree that their communication has been woeful.

Moving offices doesn't surprise or concern me. If I had employees working at an office that was being picketed - I'd be doing the same. It doesn't take much for people to be concerned for their safety, and you'd have employees on stress leave or unwilling to come in to work... not to mention getting your landlord and other businesses in the building offside.

Getting them to "explain" things to a Japanese court unfamiliar with Bitcoins sounds like a nightmare process to me.
It's entirely possible the court would go for the simplest (and dumbest) of options and force conversion of all BTC to yen at some low exchange rate for the purposes of resolving this in a way familiar to them.  That would be unfortunate for MTGox BTC holders.

I don't think a legal exercise in fishing for information, which may very well halt business operations, would be in the interests of those with funds in MTGox, fiat or BTC.

As for your claim that 'there should be no reason not to repay the fiat that is owed' - the slow withdrawal issues are a well-known separate issue unrelated to the BTC withdrawal problem.
Certainly there are reports of Euro & Yen withdrawals being processed recently, albeit slowly.  That is a function of their difficulties in processing huge volumes through the traditional banking system with its AML and verification requirements; and is the issue Roger Ver reported on recently when he stated something to the effect that it was not a liquidity issue.

I have significant holdings of BTC on MTGox, and I'm more concerned about the risks of premature legal action than anything.  

If you have concerns for the safety of the staff then you contact the police who apparently were only too happy to move the protestors when another tenant complained.  I concede there may have been other security issues we are not aware of, but it looks exceedingly cowardly, especially when all the protestors wanted was some reassurance that their bitcoins were safe and a timescale as to when they would be released. 

As the original poster and litigant states,  MtGox uses a Japanese bank .  They seek to transfer what is owed to a Japanese account.  Any issues relating to international transfers are I would argue moot.  Any issues regarding bitcoin are also irrelevant.  A product was sold through their site for an agreed price and that money needs to be returned asap.  Any bitcoins remaining would have to be subject to a separate action should they choose to do so, but the key here is to get the money now. 

I hope you are able to recover all your bitcoins and I understand you are prepared to give them more time.  I know they recovered from one very serious breach in 2011, but to me this feels like the endgame and legal action now is probably better than legal action after the authorities step in.

[dynodog]

[/quote]
  Hopefully they will just transfer the funds to the law firm and this can be settled quickly.
[/quote]

Neither has any chance of happening.

[CompNsci]

Getting them to "explain" things to a Japanese court unfamiliar with Bitcoins sounds like a nightmare process to me.
It's entirely possible the court would go for the simplest (and dumbest) of options and force conversion of all BTC to yen at some low exchange rate for the purposes of resolving this in a way familiar to them.  That would be unfortunate for MTGox BTC holders.

...

I have significant holdings of BTC on MTGox, and I'm more concerned about the risks of premature legal action than anything.  

The appropriate settlement in the case of property owed is fair market value. That's pretty standard in a legal settlement. I agree there is some subtlety there with BTC, but I have more faith in the bankruptcy court figuring it out eventually and fairly (it will take some time) than I do in Mt. Gox at this point.

[CompNsci]

And in any case, it looks like the people who are going to file this suit are going to file it, so debates here are likely not going to affect that.

[repentance]

The latest WSJ article regarding MtGox might be of interest to this thread. It's paywalled, but has been quoted on reddit.  Bolding mine.

www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1ytb3o/japans_authorities_decline_to_step_in_on_bitcoin/

TOKYO—Investors with funds tied up at Mt. Gox are looking for guidance from local authorities on how to get their bitcoin back, but without success, highlighting the regulatory vacuum in which the bitcoin exchange operates in Japan.

Japanese financial authorities decline to take responsibility for the crypto-currency.

Tokyo-based Mt. Gox, which accounted for more than 80% of all bitcoin trading at one point last year, halted all customer bitcoin withdrawals earlier this month, saying a bug in the bitcoin software allowed some users to alter transactions, a flaw that could make fraudulent withdrawals possible.The exchange told customers last week it was still working on restarting bitcoin withdrawals.

On Monday, Mt. Gox chief Mark Karpeles resigned from the board of the Bitcoin Foundation, the most influential trade group advocating for the virtual currency. After the news, which came Sunday evening in New York, Mt. Gox bitcoin continued a recent slide, trading at around $150 late in Tokyo on Monday, while the Coindesk bitcoin index, which tracks the price of the currency on two other major exchanges, traded at $575. At the end of January, Mt. Gox bitcoin was at $939
.
Investors with bitcoins tied up at Mt. Gox have flown from as far away as the U.K. to protest outside the exchange’s offices. Some investors say they have contacted the Financial Services Agency, Japan’s banking watchdog, to ask regulators whether there are any rules protecting Mt. Gox customers, but obtained no clear answers.

Some lawyers and other legal experts say a deposit-taking entity such as Mt. Gox would normally fall under the FSA’s jurisdiction. The FSA, however, said it isn’t the agency’s job to supervise crypto-currency exchanges.

“Bitcoin isn’t a currency; it works as an alternative to currencies, like gold,” an FSA spokesman said Monday. “The FSA is in charge of currency-based services. Therefore, bitcoin exchanges are not a subject to our regulatory oversight.”

Unlike their counterparts in many major economies, including the European Union, China, Russia and the U.S., Japanese authorities have been relatively silent about bitcoin. When asked in December for his view on bitcoin generally, Bank of Japan Gov. Haruhiko Kuroda said that he was “very interested.” He said the central bank’s research arm was looking into the currency, but that he couldn’t comment further.

A Bank of Japan spokesman said Friday that the bank “is not in a position” to regulate bitcoin and its exchanges.

The Ministry of Finance said on Monday that it isn’t its job to supervise bitcoin and related services. The Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, which is in charge of information technology and related issues, said, “We are not in a position to make any judgments on this matter.”

Mr. Karpeles told The Wall Street Journal last week that he has discussed the company’s business model with Japanese authorities to ensure the firm was operating within the law. He didn’t elaborate. People with knowledge of Mt. Gox’s business say the exchange had had communications with the FSA. The FSA said Monday it hasn’t corresponded with Mt. Gox recently and hasn’t given the exchange any operational advice.

No country has recognized bitcoin as legal tender, though some accept it as a virtual payment method and have moved to regulate bitcoin exchanges. Mt. Gox registered as a money-services business in the U.S. in June last year after authorities said it wasn’t properly registered in the country.

There are also concerns about how authorities should respond to possible cases of fraud involving bitcoin, even if they don’t recognize bitcoin as a currency. In China, local media reported that three people were arrested for allegedly operating a fraudulent exchange and absconding with investors’ money last fall. The country’s central bank forbids financial institutions from doing bitcoin-related business, though individuals aren’t barred from trading the currency.

In the case of Mt. Gox, investors haven’t put forward fraud allegations but expressed concern that given the potential that bitcoins were improperly withdrawn in the past, the exchange might not be able to meet its commitments.

According to documents seen by The Wall Street Journal, Tibanne Co., which operates Mt. Gox, is expected to generate a small profit in the fiscal year ending in March from exchange transaction fees. The forecast, however, assumes bitcoin prices well above current levels.

Two people briefed on the exchange’s operations said the company has enough money to process all the customer withdrawal requests, saying external factors were behind any payment delays.

Eric Bosma, a 60-year-old part-time health-care worker from Mission, British Columbia, said he has been trading bitcoins for the past six months to try to earn extra income, but hasn’t been able to withdraw the roughly 5.25 bitcoins he has in Mt. Gox. “I have contacted Mt. Gox many, many times in the past two weeks and all I get is what seems to be bot emails,” he said in an email. “All I want is my bitcoin back.”

For more than a week, Londoner Kolin Burges spent his days camped outside the Mt. Gox offices, holding a sign reading “MT. GOX — WHERE IS OUR MONEY”. He had deposited 250 bitcoins at the exchange in early January, thinking to keep them there temporarily, but has been unable to withdraw them.

“I want to get my bitcoin back, or get Mt.Gox to bring back public confidence that the company is solvent and people’s money are safe,” said Mr. Burges as he started his protest on Valentine’s Day. Mr. Burges was later joined by another protester. The two added chairs and a live video stream to their setup. On the stream online, the two could be seen mostly checking their laptops, with signs propped up calling for others to join the protest.

Mt. Gox didn’t respond to phone calls and emailed questions about Mr. Karpeles’s resignation, its financial position or the status of its customers’ bitcoin. In an email interview last week, Mr. Karpeles declined to answer any questions about customers’ funds.

Other people interested in bitcoin are divided over the need for outside regulation.

“Mt. Gox seems to be the microcosm of why self-regulation doesn’t work,” as customers are left unprotected from potential losses, said Boston University professor Mark T. Williams. He acknowledged, though, that Japanese regulators are in a “precarious situation.”

Weighing in on the Mt. Gox matter would force authorities to become an active enforcer of bitcoin businesses, yet continued silence could invite other Japanese businesses to start trading bitcoin, he said.

Many in the bitcoin community say regulation goes against the spirit of the currency.

“Philosophically I’m opposed to the very idea of regulation,” Roger Ver, a well-known, Tokyo-based bitcoin investor said on Monday, though he added he couldn’t speak to the case of Japan. He also declined to speak specifically about Mt. Gox.

Patrick Murck, general counsel at the Bitcoin Foundation, told a U.S. congressional hearing in November that more work needed to be done on the legal framework around bitcoin. “Though challenges exist, Bitcoin does not pose a unique or unsolvable challenge to law enforcement or existing regulatory structures,” he said.

Meanwhile, Japan took a clear stance on regulations for protesters. Mr, Burges and his fellow protester, who spent last week outside of Mt. Gox’s offices, were told by police Friday that registration was needed in order to demonstrate. The two said they planned to continue their protest in other ways.

[ChrisJ]

So, let's say you impatient folk sue based on all this hearsay and rumour... and it turns out there was enough BTC after all.

It's been what.. a week or so into a technical issue and you guys want to mire MTGox in lawsuits?  Do you know how much value this will eat in legal costs?
I think you've got big dumb balls to get involved with this so soon - as MTGox will go you for costs + damages if you're wrong.

MtGox have shown clear disregard for the very large sums of money that some people have entrusted them with.  Their communication has been poor bordering on the incompetent.  To top it off they chose to move offices in the middle of this crisis rather than work non stop until it was fixed.  They may have legitimate reasons why they can’t give people their bitcoins, but there should be no reason not to repay the fiat that is owed.  Either they have it or they don’t and at this point it seems the only way to find out is through a legal process.  Hopefully they will just transfer the funds to the law firm and this can be settled quickly.  If not then they will at least have to explain themselves in court.

I agree that their communication has been woeful.

Moving offices doesn't surprise or concern me. If I had employees working at an office that was being picketed - I'd be doing the same. It doesn't take much for people to be concerned for their safety, and you'd have employees on stress leave or unwilling to come in to work... not to mention getting your landlord and other businesses in the building offside.

Getting them to "explain" things to a Japanese court unfamiliar with Bitcoins sounds like a nightmare process to me.
It's entirely possible the court would go for the simplest (and dumbest) of options and force conversion of all BTC to yen at some low exchange rate for the purposes of resolving this in a way familiar to them.  That would be unfortunate for MTGox BTC holders.

I don't think a legal exercise in fishing for information, which may very well halt business operations, would be in the interests of those with funds in MTGox, fiat or BTC.

As for your claim that 'there should be no reason not to repay the fiat that is owed' - the slow withdrawal issues are a well-known separate issue unrelated to the BTC withdrawal problem.
Certainly there are reports of Euro & Yen withdrawals being processed recently, albeit slowly.  That is a function of their difficulties in processing huge volumes through the traditional banking system with its AML and verification requirements; and is the issue Roger Ver reported on recently when he stated something to the effect that it was not a liquidity issue.

I have significant holdings of BTC on MTGox, and I'm more concerned about the risks of premature legal action than anything.  

You make some good points here that I had not considered, notably that getting a court involved would probably only make things worse. I have however posted a public request on Twitter and Reddit which so far seems to be getting some support.

I am open to suggestions on this. Right now where I am is that I don't think it's wise that we sit back and wait. We have an opportunity to show to the world that we can get organised and bring some much needed closure to this issue. I propose we all start putting pressure on Gox to declare the facts. IF Mark has screwed up and feels it is going to be embarrassing for him then someone needs to go in to the offices and talk him down and tell the truth.

[repentance]

I am open to suggestions on this. Right now where I am is that I don't think it's wise that we sit back and wait. We have an opportunity to show to the world that we can get organised and bring some much needed closure to this issue. I propose we all start putting pressure on Gox to declare the facts. IF Mark has screwed up and feels it is going to be embarrassing for him then someone needs to go in to the offices and talk him down and tell the truth.

Bitcoin Foundation members have tried reaching out to Mark.  Some have offered him both money and technical resources.  

I don't think that he's more likely to listen to users at this point than he is to listen to other business people or to give answers to users that he's not willing to give the media.

MtGox has so many users that it's not reasonable to expect they're all going to be in agreement on how to approach this situation.  It's the right of users to protect their own best interests and to do so in the manner they see fit.  It's the obligation of each user to obtain professional advice about how best to do that.  

Frankly, the "wait and give them a chance to sort things out" approach has historically not ended well in the world of Bitcoin exchanges.  It needs to be acknowledged that such an approach can leave users collectively worse off.

Some people are going to be unhappy with the approaches taken by others.  That is inevitable.  It doesn't, however, mean that those approaches are objectively wrong or should not be taken.

I don't believe there are any options which will bring rapid "closure", though.

[Nagle]

So, let's say you impatient folk sue based on all this hearsay and rumour... and it turns out there was enough BTC after all.
 It's been what.. a week or so into a technical issue and you guys want to mire MTGox in lawsuits?  Do you know how much value this will eat in legal costs? I think you've got big dumb balls to get involved with this so soon - as MTGox will go you for costs + damages if you're wrong.

It's been half a year since Mt. Gox started dragging their feet on withdrawals. The "two week hiatus" on US dollar withdrawals from July 2013 never ended.

Mt. Gox has no counterclaim here. This is debt collection. It doesn't even matter whether Mt. Gox "has the Bitcoins". The only question is whether they're paying their debts, which, clearly, they are not.

That's why it's time to put Mt. Gox into involuntary bankruptcy.

[repentance]

So, let's say you impatient folk sue based on all this hearsay and rumour... and it turns out there was enough BTC after all.
 It's been what.. a week or so into a technical issue and you guys want to mire MTGox in lawsuits?  Do you know how much value this will eat in legal costs? I think you've got big dumb balls to get involved with this so soon - as MTGox will go you for costs + damages if you're wrong.

It's been half a year since Mt. Gox started dragging their feet on withdrawals. The "two week hiatus" on US dollar withdrawals from July 2013 never ended.

Mt. Gox has no counterclaim here. This is debt collection. It doesn't even matter whether Mt. Gox "has the Bitcoins". The only question is whether they're paying their debts, which, clearly, they are not.

That's why it's time to put Mt. Gox into involuntary bankruptcy.

Not just that.  There is every reason to believe based on MtGox's own statements that if withdrawals are resumed they will be even slower than before (and SEPA and Japanese withdrawal times had already blown out prior to this).  Users aren't being given the option of exiting the game if that's not acceptable to them.

Even if MtGox is nominally solvent, this cycle of ever-increasing withdrawal times needs to be broken.  If it's solvent, there is no reason why it cannot return all customer balances while it sorts out its technical issues.  Instead, what it's currently promising is that getting funds out of MtGox is going to be even more difficult when withdrawals resume.  It's unilaterally imposing new terms and conditions without giving users the ability to opt out of accepting them.

That MtGox is not allowing people to withdraw their funds is not "hearsay and rumour".  That it had become increasingly difficult for people to withdraw funds from MtGox even prior to withdrawals being suspended by MtGox is also not "hearsay and rumour".  That MtGox has stated it will be imposing new withdrawal limits and "moderating" the pace of withdrawals when they resume is not "hearsay and rumour".  These are all facts.  People have every right to decide the situation in unacceptable to them and to seek recovery of their funds through other means, given that MtGox itself is suggesting that users won't simply be able to take their funds and go elsewhere when withdrawals resume.

Continuing to allow deposits and trading while they have unaddressed technical issues is at best unethical on the part of MtGox.  Those who have no assurances about when they'll ever be able to withdraw funds from MtGox have every right to take measures to ensure that MtGox is forced to operate transparently and ethically.  MtGox has nothing to fear from such action if it is, indeed, solvent.

[Tegija]

and it died...

[achillez]

i'm in for the plaintiff suit if/when this gets started

[repentance]

i'm in for the plaintiff suit if/when this gets started

It's probably moot now.

[Nagle]

At this point people with money in Mt. Gox should be contacting the Tokyo police and reporting that Mt. Gox took their money and disappeared as a company. Do this now. Make sure Mark Karpeles' passport is flagged so he can't leave Japan.

[btbrae]

At this point people with money in Mt. Gox should be contacting the Tokyo police and reporting that Mt. Gox took their money and disappeared as a company. Do this now. Make sure Mark Karpeles' passport is flagged so he can't leave Japan.

This. I called but the signal sucked and I couldn't hear a thing. Trying from a different line later.

[repentance]

At this point people with money in Mt. Gox should be contacting the Tokyo police and reporting that Mt. Gox took their money and disappeared as a company. Do this now. Make sure Mark Karpeles' passport is flagged so he can't leave Japan.

I'm not usually inclined to repeat unsubstantiated rumours but there were reports last week that MtGox staff had been required to surrender their passports (I've got no way to confirm it but it wouldn't have been an unusual step given multiple government investigations going on in relation to MtGox).

While I understand that the authorities have said that they can't regulate Bitcoin exchanges, I presume that normal corporation law applies.  The "leaked document" appears to provide evidence that MtGox is knowingly trading while insolvent so it's definitely worth reporting that to whoever is responsible for enforcing corporations law in Japan.  The mainstream media has picked up the story now, so it shouldn't be too difficult to get that particular option in motion.

It's possible that there are insufficient grounds for criminal complaints as yet, but it's worth a try I guess.

Another avenue to try is Japanese trade organisations in your own country.  They may be more familiar with the appropriate legal options than the rest of us.

[publius25]

I think those of us in the EU should push for a separate suit because there might be money in the polish account. It will also be easier.

I think the foundation are also to blame if they continued to accredit the exchange as a gold member when they were aware of these problems.

[psilos]

I think those of us in the EU should push for a separate suit because there might be money in the polish account. It will also be easier.

I think the foundation are also to blame if they continued to accredit the exchange as a gold member when they were aware of these problems.

+1.

I Agree that it may worth investigating whether EU funds can be claimed directly from the polish bank.

Anybody in the forum with experience in related legal issues that can help?

[sparcu]

Is there any online form to file a complaint with Tokyo police?
They got ~10K USD of mine.

[Gush]

I think those of us in the EU should push for a separate suit because there might be money in the polish account. It will also be easier.

I think the foundation are also to blame if they continued to accredit the exchange as a gold member when they were aware of these problems.

+1.

I Agree that it may worth investigating whether EU funds can be claimed directly from the polish bank.

Anybody in the forum with experience in related legal issues that can help?

There are good options for class-action suits in the Netherlands. Dutch courts are often used for pursuing class actions against firms (since they assume jurisdiction quite easily), and its judgments can be executed EU-wide.

Any person that has lost money/bc because of MT.Gox's mistakes has a civil claim that it can transfer to an institution or fund, which then in turn can initiate action on behalf of all claimants.

[qiuness]

I`m also ears, since i was stupid enough to have BTC on GOX!

[efrix]

I think those of us in the EU should push for a separate suit because there might be money in the polish account. It will also be easier.

I think the foundation are also to blame if they continued to accredit the exchange as a gold member when they were aware of these problems.

+1.

I Agree that it may worth investigating whether EU funds can be claimed directly from the polish bank.

Anybody in the forum with experience in related legal issues that can help?

There are good options for class-action suits in the Netherlands. Dutch courts are often used for pursuing class actions against firms (since they assume jurisdiction quite easily), and its judgments can be executed EU-wide.

Any person that has lost money/bc because of MT.Gox's mistakes has a civil claim that it can transfer to an institution or fund, which then in turn can initiate action on behalf of all claimants.

Gush do you know where we can start? Any institution or fund in Netherlands?

[Gush]

I think those of us in the EU should push for a separate suit because there might be money in the polish account. It will also be easier.

I think the foundation are also to blame if they continued to accredit the exchange as a gold member when they were aware of these problems.

+1.

I Agree that it may worth investigating whether EU funds can be claimed directly from the polish bank.

Anybody in the forum with experience in related legal issues that can help?

There are good options for class-action suits in the Netherlands. Dutch courts are often used for pursuing class actions against firms (since they assume jurisdiction quite easily), and its judgments can be executed EU-wide.

Any person that has lost money/bc because of MT.Gox's mistakes has a civil claim that it can transfer to an institution or fund, which then in turn can initiate action on behalf of all claimants.

Gush do you know where we can start? Any institution or fund in Netherlands?

A logical first step would be to first pool how many people with claims you can find to start such a class action. Then you would have to approach a (NL-based) attorney with your case. A fund could be set up collectively on behalf of the claimaints. Allthough no cure no pay is forbidden in the Netherlands, there are ways to circumvent this with class-action suits, thus it might be possible to find a lawyer/lawfirm that would work on behalf of all claimants on a no cure no pay basis (which means the involved lawyers get an x percentage of the total claim value if they would succesfully bring the case to an end).

[efrix]

I think those of us in the EU should push for a separate suit because there might be money in the polish account. It will also be easier.

I think the foundation are also to blame if they continued to accredit the exchange as a gold member when they were aware of these problems.

+1.

I Agree that it may worth investigating whether EU funds can be claimed directly from the polish bank.

Anybody in the forum with experience in related legal issues that can help?

There are good options for class-action suits in the Netherlands. Dutch courts are often used for pursuing class actions against firms (since they assume jurisdiction quite easily), and its judgments can be executed EU-wide.

Any person that has lost money/bc because of MT.Gox's mistakes has a civil claim that it can transfer to an institution or fund, which then in turn can initiate action on behalf of all claimants.

Gush do you know where we can start? Any institution or fund in Netherlands?

A logical first step would be to first pool how many people with claims you can find to start such a class action. Then you would have to approach a (NL-based) attorney with your case. A fund could be set up collectively on behalf of the claimaints. Allthough no cure no pay is forbidden in the Netherlands, there are ways to circumvent this with class-action suits, thus it might be possible to find a lawyer/lawfirm that would work on behalf of all claimants on a no cure no pay basis (which means the involved lawyers get an x percentage of the total claim value if they would succesfully bring the case to an end).

Is there anyone from Netherlands that can be our reference there? What way is better to use to pool people interested in this action?
PM on bitcointalk? A private mail address? (I can do that if needed)

[Luno]

From my Gmail back in October, I called that guy, his English is fine:

(the mail address is return address to the municipal official, that gave me the contact to the Metropolitan police, so not a cop. You have to call them on the phone!! The country of robots & A.I.)
S0000010@section.metro.tokyo.jp
   
25/10/13
      
Dear Mr. Tore Martin Lund

Thank you for your email.

According to its website, Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department receives
information of cases by e-mail, but they can't reply to sender.
And they deal with matters which are occured inside of Tokyo Metropolitan
only.
Therefore, about appropriate referense, I suggest you to inquire of Tokyo
Metropolitan Police Department General Consultation Center by telephone.
(in English)

Contact : 81-3-3503-8484
Hours :  Mon-Fri 8:30-17:15
Japan standard time is 9 hours ahead of Coordinated Universal Time.
(UTC +09:00)
Best regards,
Kaori Adachi
Citizens' Consultation Section
Tokyo Metropolitan Government

[Lauda]

So has someone called this in?
Mark is fleeing.

[bitcoinsolicitor]

I am a qualified solicitor authorised and regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority in Engand.

My law firm Selachii LLP would be please to assist / advise those located in the UK.

To discuss any potential matters please call + 44 (0) 20 7792 5649 or email info (at) selachii.co.uk

Regards


Richard Howlett
Solicitor
www.bitcoinsolicitor.com

[Luno]

The US Coinlab suit is going to court shortly. I would imagine they are a priority creditor over regular costumers if they win? That case might also delay any other settlement of claims from costumers?

That's another reason that I think the "take over" rumours are exaggerated, but then again, I don't claim to have any knowledge of international cooperate law.

[seijisamlee]

I have contacted the offices of my law firm (REDACTED) in Tokyo to begin proceedings to sue Mt.Gox / Tibanne Ltd / Mark Karpeles .....

I am an affected from Spain, with 30BTC into MtGox. Is it late to get into this iniciative?

[Spekulatius]

I think those of us in the EU should push for a separate suit because there might be money in the polish account. It will also be easier.

I think the foundation are also to blame if they continued to accredit the exchange as a gold member when they were aware of these problems.

+1.

I Agree that it may worth investigating whether EU funds can be claimed directly from the polish bank.

Anybody in the forum with experience in related legal issues that can help?

There are good options for class-action suits in the Netherlands. Dutch courts are often used for pursuing class actions against firms (since they assume jurisdiction quite easily), and its judgments can be executed EU-wide.

Any person that has lost money/bc because of MT.Gox's mistakes has a civil claim that it can transfer to an institution or fund, which then in turn can initiate action on behalf of all claimants.

Gush do you know where we can start? Any institution or fund in Netherlands?

A logical first step would be to first pool how many people with claims you can find to start such a class action. Then you would have to approach a (NL-based) attorney with your case. A fund could be set up collectively on behalf of the claimaints. Allthough no cure no pay is forbidden in the Netherlands, there are ways to circumvent this with class-action suits, thus it might be possible to find a lawyer/lawfirm that would work on behalf of all claimants on a no cure no pay basis (which means the involved lawyers get an x percentage of the total claim value if they would succesfully bring the case to an end).

Is there anyone from Netherlands that can be our reference there? What way is better to use to pool people interested in this action?
PM on bitcointalk? A private mail address? (I can do that if needed)

Im based in Germany and would be interested to make a claim in a possible class action suit but will wait a few more days before taking action to see what the situation is like and what chances there are to recover any of my losses from Gox. I dont think there is much there to recover though.

What should be done immediately though is hinder Mark Karpeles from fleeing the country. If there are any email addresses to contact Japanese law enforcement, I will send them an email straight away and so should you!

Polish authorities have shown little to no effort to protect the interests of (German) Bitcoin exchange customers in the similar case of bitcoin-24.com when a Polish bank account was seized over alleged money laundering charges (which proofed wrong). Till today no funds have been released.

[Massimo80]

I'm from Italy, and definitely would like to get my 12K EUR back (no BTCs, I was in fiat after having sold them and immediately requested a bank transfer. That was two months ago. It never arrived.).

[CC23]

Another German here - not as much to claim, just about 2BTC but I'm still in since this is a lot of money to me, also provided we don't see any positive news over the next few days.

[bei_neureichs]

German, too and I'm interested.

[Tegija]

what kind of possibilities are there to stop mt.gox (or any involved firm member) to use their OKPAY accounts? any ideas?

i´m sure there was lots of money flow to mt.gox over OKPAY in last days. there has to be millions on OKPAY considering how many people transferred money fron BTC-e to mt.gox because of low BTC prices.

[Lauda]

There are thousands of customers who lost their funds. If we try to sue Gox in huge numbers, they can't just ignore us.

[CompNsci]

Do we know if this has been served on Gox yet?

[lucky7]

I lost 5k€ and about 40BTC. As I now googled about Mark and can see that he is just a prick with a background in PHP scripting and have no leadership competens what so ever, as I now see the amateur in lots of things. I regret that I didn't do my investigation on MtGox/Tibanne before I sold off lots of BTC's on Gox in November as the fiat has been there since then. I tried to get in contact to ask where my funds was and they said that it would go faster if I did a SEPA transfer. I exchanged from USD -> EUR, but no confirmation for transaction did come, just excuses.....So I wonder why did they kept running the business and who was answering the support questions, what was the strategy. What kind of people can have this in their conscience, to put so many people on the streets?

[taiping]

Hi nmersulypnem --

I have been informed from Bingham that they are not involved with litigation with MtGox.
The email from them says . . .

"Thank you for your email. I looked into your request and learned that Bingham is not involved in this matter. Apparently a comment in a blog incorrectly noted that we were.
My apologies for not being able to help you."

Please clarify the name of the law office who is dealing with this.
Why be so coy about it?

[fredayang]

Hi nmersulypnem --

I have been informed from Bingham that they are not involved with litigation with MtGox.
The email from them says . . .

"Thank you for your email. I looked into your request and learned that Bingham is not involved in this matter. Apparently a comment in a blog incorrectly noted that we were.
My apologies for not being able to help you."

Please clarify the name of the law office who is dealing with this.
Why be so coy about it?

I'd like to know the name of the law firm as well.

[hickin]

A couple of things:

My dad withdrew 100 euro last weeks from MTGox and got them the 24th of Feb. and we live in Sweden.
So it took less then a week for him to get his money.
But I withdrew money the 12 January and they have still not got to me (1000 euro).

But if there is going to be a lawsuit me, my dad and my girlfriend would all like to join up with you guys and split the fees.

[dragony]

Hi,
I've sent you message with no reply from you.

[Thorak]

Can I join any lawsuit initiative too?
I had/have ~76 BTCs at Mtgox and I want to get them back!

[zyk]

I think those of us in the EU should push for a separate suit because there might be money in the polish account. It will also be easier.

I think the foundation are also to blame if they continued to accredit the exchange as a gold member when they were aware of these problems.

+1.

I Agree that it may worth investigating whether EU funds can be claimed directly from the polish bank.

Anybody in the forum with experience in related legal issues that can help?

There are good options for class-action suits in the Netherlands. Dutch courts are often used for pursuing class actions against firms (since they assume jurisdiction quite easily), and its judgments can be executed EU-wide.

Any person that has lost money/bc because of MT.Gox's mistakes has a civil claim that it can transfer to an institution or fund, which then in turn can initiate action on behalf of all claimants.

Gush do you know where we can start? Any institution or fund in Netherlands?

A logical first step would be to first pool how many people with claims you can find to start such a class action. Then you would have to approach a (NL-based) attorney with your case. A fund could be set up collectively on behalf of the claimaints. Allthough no cure no pay is forbidden in the Netherlands, there are ways to circumvent this with class-action suits, thus it might be possible to find a lawyer/lawfirm that would work on behalf of all claimants on a no cure no pay basis (which means the involved lawyers get an x percentage of the total claim value if they would succesfully bring the case to an end).

Is there anyone from Netherlands that can be our reference there? What way is better to use to pool people interested in this action?
PM on bitcointalk? A private mail address? (I can do that if needed)

Im based in Germany and would be interested to make a claim in a possible class action suit but will wait a few more days before taking action to see what the situation is like and what chances there are to recover any of my losses from Gox. I dont think there is much there to recover though.

What should be done immediately though is hinder Mark Karpeles from fleeing the country. If there are any email addresses to contact Japanese law enforcement, I will send them an email straight away and so should you!

Polish authorities have shown little to no effort to protect the interests of (German) Bitcoin exchange customers in the similar case of bitcoin-24.com when a Polish bank account was seized over alleged money laundering charges (which proofed wrong). Till today no funds have been released.

But at least they seized the account...thats whats need to happen ...accounts and their records of Gox need to be frozen...subito!

or any legal case is futile as the money will be gone and traces extinct...as nobody wants to act, may it be a good idea to get the polish

authorities to freeze it on the base of moneylaundering...whatever...but that the scam just goes on without any consequences is absolutly

hilarious....BTC is fucked on this ground

[ricolein]

I have been informed from Bingham that they are not involved with litigation with MtGox.

I can confirm this. They told me same.

The thread poster didnt answer to some of my questions. I fear he has a lawyer (but diffrent than named in first post, befor name was removed) and dont want to have much participiants. Does anyone have contact to a lawyer / lawsuit in this case? Please post contact information here or directly to me.

Would be nice to hear from you.

Enrico

[Ominub]

You can count with me as well.

[T.Stuart]

Please keep us informed

[Stapleddiet]

My hands are up from Australia. I have a tidy sum involved.

[Mats8500]

I have 8 and a bit BTC on Gox left.

Valued at competitors value it's about 5000$. I think we should be able to join with a valuable amount of BTC too. I'd be interested in adding up.

[CompNsci]

Anyone here also interested in joining the involuntary bankruptcy proceeding? This would at least get the air cleared with respect to what has happened, likely seize the Mt. Gox officers assets at a minimum, and return something (though it will take time).

If so, please see this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=487340.0

[Plum]

I lost 155 BTC plus USD 5,000 deposit I sent to MtGox. Please count me in.

[Ominub]

I have 8 and a bit BTC on Gox left.

Valued at competitors value it's about 5000$. I think we should be able to join with a valuable amount of BTC too. I'd be interested in adding up.

me 10 BTC :/ ...  I think the prominent leaders of BTC promoters have to  save the mtgox otherwise no one will trust to any BTC exchange and global in BTC anymore after this incident. On the other side I believe, that BTC price can go much higher if they will rescue this failing exchange. Dont want to speculate, but it´s still possible, that this outage of biggest BTC exchange could be a kind of intended manipulation with the BTC price.

[IIpeBeD_MeDBeD]

Hi! I lost 21 BTC on mtgox.
I want to try get it back.
What i need to do for a class action lawsuit? Im from Russia and my english is very bad.
Pls. help me. Thanks!

[jennessr]

I'm potentially interested, but…
I prefer the suit to be for Bitcoin asset value.  That's global, so presumably the customer base is bigger.  Also, the jurisdiction can be chosen to be the one most favorable to true class action suits.  Finally, we could choose a jurisdiction with good KYC and AML, for an expectation of identifying the perps who actually stole the assets (if that's what happened).  Also, BTC was key to the crime, whether it was theft from the exchange or the exchange perpetrating a fraud.
I'm sure there were lots of BTC-only victims, due to the low prices at the end and the resulting arbitrage opportunity.
Perhaps we need N+1 separate suits, for N Fiats plus BTC, but let's focus on BTC first.

[squidfrites]

Thank you for initiating this effort.

I have 10 point something BTC on MtGox and would like to join your action.
My preference would be to sue for the 10.x BTC.
If the terms of your action meant I had to sue for a USD amount, I would concede to that.

I don't have records or screenshots though, MTGox has that.  Can part of the action also be to force MtGox to give up account records? I expect that I am not the only one who would need this.

This is the third BTC exchange collapse (or serious problem) I have been caught in. So yes, I know, I am very stupid to have lost 10+ BTC and not to have screenshots etc.

The glaring difference is that with the previous two events ( with Instawallet and Bitcoin 24) , those organisations were informative, helpful and ultimately proved good-as-their-word trustworthy: it took a long time but they diligently returned all BTC funds (to me at least).
Well, that may happen with MtGox of course, but their blank website says otherwise and does not point that way. I do not trust them.

[britta]

I lost over AUD$80,000, stored as fiat with MtGox.  Can i get in on this?

[Ominub]

This is the third BTC exchange collapse (or serious problem) I have been caught in. So yes, I know, I am very stupid to have lost 10+ BTC and not to have screenshots etc.

I´m not sure if screenshots are enought reliable data for law use. But if you have stored copy of your communication with gox´s support which contains exact amounts, it should be definitely helpfull.  Anyway I think we´re screwed up, unless the big players will fire current management and rescue the gox exchange as service. Then we have real chance to get our money back.

Btw: Have you already seen this? I don ´t know the relevancy of this document, it can be fake as well, but I think it is good to see it http://www.scribd.com/doc/209050732/MtGox-Situation-Crisis-Strategy-Draft  ... if that is truth, we still have a chance.

[oooo]

They filed for bankruptcy. I believe this means all civil suites would be halted until the administrator can be brought up to speed and work out a plan moving forward.

Can somebody clarify?

[raskul]

They filed for bankruptcy. I believe this means all civil suites would be halted until the administrator can be brought up to speed and work out a plan moving forward.

Can somebody clarify?

that's about the size of it, however, it would still be advisable to make sure all claims are routed to the administrator via legal professionals.

[dreamspark]

They only filed for bankruptcy protection for this exact reason, to stop class action law suits while they attempt to find a solution.

[nmersulypnem]

Updated OP

[medialab101]

They only filed for bankruptcy protection for this exact reason, to stop class action law suits while they attempt to find a solution.

They are safe from class-action suits for the moment but they are still open to criminal suits, which I'm sure will ensue. Especially after more facts of the case become clear.

[nmersulypnem]

They only filed for bankruptcy protection for this exact reason, to stop class action law suits while they attempt to find a solution.

They are safe from class-action suits for the moment but they are still open to criminal suits, which I'm sure will ensue. Especially after more facts of the case become clear.

In Japan bankruptcy law does not protect executives from personal liability in the case of gross negligence - which is almost a certainty in this case in my opinion.

[puppy987654321]

I wish you success in lawsuit.
I lost "only" 11 BTC and USD 1500 so I think I have no chance of getting my money or BTC back.
Shame I didnot watch the situation closer.
I thought the problems are not so bad and maybe some 10% of funds could be missing so people would get 90% maybe 80%..... I was stupid fool. But it is nothing with comparison of people whos life is ruined by Karpeles behaviour.

[repentance]

They only filed for bankruptcy protection for this exact reason, to stop class action law suits while they attempt to find a solution.

They are safe from class-action suits for the moment but they are still open to criminal suits, which I'm sure will ensue. Especially after more facts of the case become clear.

In Japan bankruptcy law does not protect executives from personal liability in the case of gross negligence - which is almost a certainty in this case in my opinion.

While that may be true, it doesn't mean that finding a law firm willing to take the case would be easy.  Law firms like to get paid.  Personal liability means jack shit if someone doesn't have the means to pay a judgement.

[squidfrites]

Btw: Have you already seen this? I don ´t know the relevancy of this document, it can be fake as well, but I think it is good to see it http://www.scribd.com/doc/209050732/MtGox-Situation-Crisis-Strategy-Draft  ... if that is truth, we still have a chance.

Thank-you, I had heard of this but not read so it is interesting.
But must be ho hum since we are not reading it directly from Mt Gox on their website.

[emunebtk]

Very interested as well in being apart of the class action lawsuit as I lost 1.8BTC and am a US customer. I know it's nothing compared to what many lost but it is still a good chunk of change I would love to see back. Any help is much appreciated! Thanks

[gjlite]

I'm another victim in Japan.

Have lost over 30BTCs which I need back.

Fortunately I took a screen grab of my transaction list, account number and balances. Most of my savings were tied up in Mt Gox's account.

If this helps, I will be eager to join a class action suit in Japan.

Gavin

[simonvrouwe]

Lost 80 BTC on mtGox and a pending withdrawal of 1000 Euro.

Will join collective suing if offered.

[Jeezy911]

OMG this is so freaking sad reading this thread. These crooks should be in front of a firing squad but my god please dont ever trust anyone to hold 10s of thousands of dollars but yourself.

[enddhy]

bitcoin = $$$$ now??

[beepboopbeep]

I lost 18.097 bitcoins. Can I get in on this?

[superkawaii]

Were all the bitcoins that MtGox had stolen? Shouldn't the rest go to the people ?

[emunebtk]

Were all the bitcoins that MtGox had stolen? Shouldn't the rest go to the people ?

Indeed a good question and am curious myself where that wallet is or is their nothing left from Mt.gox spending it all? We definitely need some good news though to hit mainstream about BTC in order for it to get out of this slum it is reaching...I for one have not lost faith in Bitcoin

[seijisamlee]

I'm another victim in Japan.

Have lost over 30BTCs which I need back.

Fortunately I took a screen grab of my transaction list, account number and balances. Most of my savings were tied up in Mt Gox's account.

If this helps, I will be eager to join a class action suit in Japan.

Gavin

I am exactly as you, 30BTC and I have screenshots of all my account.

Please, if you know legal movements in japan that I can move into, please let me know!

(I am from spain)

[Ominub]

Have you read the news @ mtgox.com? Looks like the really follow the crisis scenario. So hopefully not all of our chances are lost? There is still al light @ the end of the tunel?

[Raw-H]

Have you read the news @ mtgox.com? Looks like the really follow the crisis scenario. So hopefully not all of our chances are lost? There is still al light @ the end of the tunel?

Total amount of assets   3,841,866,163
Total amount of current liabilities   6,501,119,371

That looks promising.

[Ominub]

Yep, but from the business point of view gox was good established in market. So if they do not kill the gox totaly it has still good chance to remedy.

[whatsthestory]

Were all the bitcoins that MtGox had stolen? Shouldn't the rest go to the people ?

Indeed a good question and am curious myself where that wallet is or is their nothing left from Mt.gox spending it all? We definitely need some good news though to hit mainstream about BTC in order for it to get out of this slum it is reaching...I for one have not lost faith in Bitcoin

I do agree that's good question. In this case they must give other coins to their customers but I don't know how it can be arranged. I wish they won't hide this coins from customers

[bitcoinsolicitor]

By way of an official announcement, Selachii LLP are still accepting Claimants in a proposed action against Mt Gox, their parent company and their directors.

http://www.selachii.co.uk/solicitors-blog/bitcoin-mt-gox-class-action-update/

[repentance]

Have you read the news @ mtgox.com? Looks like the really follow the crisis scenario. So hopefully not all of our chances are lost? There is still al light @ the end of the tunel?

Total amount of assets   3,841,866,163
Total amount of current liabilities   6,501,119,371

That looks promising.

Those numbers don't include BTC at all.  That's their fiat assets and liabilities expressed in yen.

[Tegija]

Have you read the news @ mtgox.com? Looks like the really follow the crisis scenario. So hopefully not all of our chances are lost? There is still al light @ the end of the tunel?

Total amount of assets   3,841,866,163
Total amount of current liabilities   6,501,119,371

That looks promising.

Those numbers don't include BTC at all.  That's their fiat assets and liabilities expressed in yen.

sure its only yen. about btw there is a no word. and i am pretty sure that there ar even not pending payments/withdrawals included.

[freedombit]

Can anyone provide a link or copies to the public documents filed at the Tokyo District Court on this?

Surely many of us would like the opportunity to scrutinize the filing and any MtGox documents disclosed.

[dragony]

Hey guys,
anyone is making classaction lawsuit in EU? Please PM me

[Tegija]

Hey guys,
anyone is making classaction lawsuit in EU? Please PM me

if you find somebody, i would like to be in too. my funds are not huge but enough to take a part of class-action lawsuit.

[BTCBlade]

I lost 301 BTCs with gox.... someone help me join a class action lawsuit please.....

[bitcoinsolicitor]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/currency/10676691/Hundreds-want-to-join-Mt-Gox-lawsuit-says-UK-law-firm.html

[iffz]

Just for the statistic:
I had 3.4 BTC and ~$9.600 on mtgox.
That hurts but does not kill me.
I feel really bad for others here who have lost so much more than me

[seanpmcd]

SICK TO MY STOMACH!  A New Yorker who traded mostly Futures but saw that tech analysis was holding more true with Bitcoins then equity and futures markets at the moment.  Deposited the end of last year and now nothing!! Lost most of my trading funds.  Please let me know if someone finds a real course of action!  I think we are S@$T out of Luck!!

[Squall_Titus]

I've lost 400 BTC. Those are just about worth € 200k.
I have written a mail to Selachii LLP <info@selachii.co.uk>. First of all they collect all Informatioen and if the court is given something they (Selachii ) is doing further steps.
Attention!
Registration for the class action ends on Friday.

[johnscoin]

I am Chinese. I have more about 1000 BTC on mtgox.
I can't sleep quite well because I can't believe the money can be gone in this way. It's fraud, not the loss of invest.

I trusted mtgox and mark karpeles so much, but now it's so clear that he is a blatant scammer.

Mtgox team replied to me on 17th, February. They said in email to me that
"Thank you for the email. Sorry for the delay in responding. We understand your concern. But be self assured all the Bitcoins are safe and secure. "

I feel very sad. It's a big loss to me.
How can I believe others in the future?

[mr_random]

I am Chinese. I have more about 1000 BTC on mtgox.
I can't sleep quite well because I can't believe the money can be gone in this way. It's fraud, not the loss of invest.

To be fair looking through your post history you were actually buying goxbtc:

I am still buying goxbtc at 70%.  up to 105 btc left.  I give you real bitcoin.

If you want to sell goxbtc, please contact me. thanks.

I bet.

I believe in Bitcoin.

You knew the risks and was betting hoping to make a big profit.

[julz]

Well to be really fair.. he was buying at a slight discount - as opposed to the final 20 to 1 ratios people were trading at on bitcoinbuilder, so he was willing to take what at that stage were considered (by many anyway, and not entirely unreasonably) to be 'delayed' or 'temporarily unavailable' coins.
This gave an exit for those who needed their coins immediately.

It's a sad situation all round.

I on the other hand took a punt on a few 3 to 1 goxcoins, which yes was a little greedy - but hey, I was burned in a risky bet I was willing to take
I feel sorry for those who had significant proportions of their wealth there or who bought goxcoins early on before the scale of the disaster was clearer.

[massivebitman]

Hi All,

I invested about $15-20k into bitcoin, now seems it's all gone.

I too would like to join the lawsuit

Please PM me

[gambit1]

I'd like to join the lawsuit so PM me if interested.

[igorr]

I'd like to join the lawsuit so PM me if interested.

You are gambled, and you lost.
Now what you want ?

[FrictionlessCoin]

Looks like Karpeles was defrauding customers even before he acquired Mt.Gox.

http://www.dailytech.com/Bitcoin+King+Pt+II+Mt+Goxs+Dictator+Karpels+Proves+Tragically+Flawed/article34452.htm

[prophetx]

some folks working on http://www.humint.is/goxcoin

[raskul]

some folks working on http://www.humint.is/goxcoin

"Obtain Gox's account database."

I hope they get arrested. I don't want my details going to this.

[Beans]

I had 53k saved on gox. As a result of trying to transfer out what I could in btc, all I ended up with was 23goxcoins and $700goxdollars. I would like to join in with someone serious about taking action.

[madsquirrel]

Excuse me, could you tell me, is there any online form to complaint with Tokyo police?

[CompNsci]

Excuse me, could you tell me, is there any online form to complaint with Tokyo police?

It is unlikely this will be treated as a criminal matter until after the bankruptcy proceedings are resolved.

[bananas]

Excuse me, could you tell me, is there any online form to complaint with Tokyo police?

It is unlikely this will be treated as a criminal matter until after the bankruptcy proceedings are resolved.

It is a parallel matter, you don't have to wait anything. Anyway the news is that it is already under investigation by the FBI and by Tokyo police.

One may contact the tokyo police here http://www.keishicho.metro.tokyo.jp/

[smoothie]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

The reasons for JPY and EUR delays are properly explained IMO.  The reason for USD delays are not explained for legal reasons which they aren't allowed to talk about.  All USD transfers must pass through a US bank, which gives the US government full control.  MagicalTux have given plenty of hints on IRC and Twitter that the US government is involved in blocking those.  Good luck in getting a Japanese court to overrule the US government regarding USD transfers.  AFAIK all attempts of legal action against MtGox in the US to get USD out have failed, and to this day I haven't got a proper explanation of why all the attempts have failed.

I think we all know why the 5% fee existed.

MTGOX WAS RUNNING A PONZI AND WERE INSOLVENT FOR QUITE A WHILE ON THE FIAT END AS WELL AS THE BTC END.

You supported them and shilled for them and now are silent on the main GATHERING thread. Run away as you have been proven to be wrong on all of your claims about how MTGOX is such a "great" place to buy and sell Bitcoins blah blah blah.

I called out your bullshit and now that it has been shown you were full of BS you are now silent on the matter. Good job buddy. 

[sturle]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

The reasons for JPY and EUR delays are properly explained IMO.  The reason for USD delays are not explained for legal reasons which they aren't allowed to talk about.  All USD transfers must pass through a US bank, which gives the US government full control.  MagicalTux have given plenty of hints on IRC and Twitter that the US government is involved in blocking those.  Good luck in getting a Japanese court to overrule the US government regarding USD transfers.  AFAIK all attempts of legal action against MtGox in the US to get USD out have failed, and to this day I haven't got a proper explanation of why all the attempts have failed.

I think we all know why the 5% fee existed.

MTGOX WAS RUNNING A PONZI AND WERE INSOLVENT FOR QUITE A WHILE ON THE FIAT END AS WELL AS THE BTC END.

Why are you saying one thing first, and then yelling the opposite?  You don't make sense, as usual.

You supported them and shilled for them and now are silent on the main GATHERING thread. Run away as you have been proven to be wrong on all of your claims about how MTGOX is such a "great" place to buy and sell Bitcoins blah blah blah.

I never supported MtGox, and I left the bullshit thread a long time ago.  I was back briefly to tell you about the EUR withdrawal which just arrived (when everyone claimed withdrawals didn't work, btw), and there wasn't a single post on the page which was worth spending two seconds on.  The page was already quite empty due to ignored people who never posted anything worth reading.  I didn' bother to read the rest.

[Nagle]

I never supported MtGox

Yes, you did:

Quote from: smoothie on February 09, 2014, 12:57:40 PM
+1 Mr. Sturle lacks logic when it comes to customers being fucked over in all of MTGOX's short comings. And myself being also called an idiot by him shows his lack of understanding of what customers should be able to do.

I can fully understand the frustration of people who can't get to their money.  Claiming they don't have the BTC, and asking for total irresponsible behaviour to "prove" they have the BTC, is 100% idiocy.

We all know that this technical glitch has all the signs of a technical glitch, and absolutely no signs of MtGox being out of BTC.  In fact they filled up their hot wallet several times during last week, as you could see by withdrawals suddenly working well for a short while, using very old inputs, until they started failing because the old spent inputs came back on top of the list (sorted by age).  I took the opportunity to withdraw just after refill, and got myself a new round of profit by buying MtGox BTC at a discount with BTC I withdrew from MtGox.  You will know they are going to refill within 2 hours of withdrawals to external addresses starting to fail with "invalid address".  (Withdrawal to MtGox deposit addresses still work when the hot wallet is empty.)

You are obviously not a technical or scientific person.  You rely on belief and rumour instead of facts and logic.  I am a technical person.  I dig into the real matters, investigating what holds water and what is just empty rumours.  That's why I am right every time.

[smoothie]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

The reasons for JPY and EUR delays are properly explained IMO.  The reason for USD delays are not explained for legal reasons which they aren't allowed to talk about.  All USD transfers must pass through a US bank, which gives the US government full control.  MagicalTux have given plenty of hints on IRC and Twitter that the US government is involved in blocking those.  Good luck in getting a Japanese court to overrule the US government regarding USD transfers.  AFAIK all attempts of legal action against MtGox in the US to get USD out have failed, and to this day I haven't got a proper explanation of why all the attempts have failed.

I think we all know why the 5% fee existed.

MTGOX WAS RUNNING A PONZI AND WERE INSOLVENT FOR QUITE A WHILE ON THE FIAT END AS WELL AS THE BTC END.

Why are you saying one thing first, and then yelling the opposite?  You don't make sense, as usual.

You supported them and shilled for them and now are silent on the main GATHERING thread. Run away as you have been proven to be wrong on all of your claims about how MTGOX is such a "great" place to buy and sell Bitcoins blah blah blah.

I never supported MtGox, and I left the bullshit thread a long time ago.  I was back briefly to tell you about the EUR withdrawal which just arrived (when everyone claimed withdrawals didn't work, btw), and there wasn't a single post on the page which was worth spending two seconds on.  The page was already quite empty due to ignored people who never posted anything worth reading.  I didn' bother to read the rest.

Let the mtgox shill back pedaling begin. Lol

[smoothie]

I never supported MtGox

Yes, you did:

Quote from: smoothie on February 09, 2014, 12:57:40 PM
+1 Mr. Sturle lacks logic when it comes to customers being fucked over in all of MTGOX's short comings. And myself being also called an idiot by him shows his lack of understanding of what customers should be able to do.

I can fully understand the frustration of people who can't get to their money.  Claiming they don't have the BTC, and asking for total irresponsible behaviour to "prove" they have the BTC, is 100% idiocy.

We all know that this technical glitch has all the signs of a technical glitch, and absolutely no signs of MtGox being out of BTC.  In fact they filled up their hot wallet several times during last week, as you could see by withdrawals suddenly working well for a short while, using very old inputs, until they started failing because the old spent inputs came back on top of the list (sorted by age).  I took the opportunity to withdraw just after refill, and got myself a new round of profit by buying MtGox BTC at a discount with BTC I withdrew from MtGox.  You will know they are going to refill within 2 hours of withdrawals to external addresses starting to fail with "invalid address".  (Withdrawal to MtGox deposit addresses still work when the hot wallet is empty.)

You are obviously not a technical or scientific person.  You rely on belief and rumour instead of facts and logic.  I am a technical person.  I dig into the real matters, investigating what holds water and what is just empty rumours.  That's why I am right every time.

Lol and I was made out to be the "idiot" yet my call was spot on (mtgox being insolvent).

And his presumption of me not being a technical person is funny as I have a technical background.

I do speak from experience. And the way I knew mtgox was insolvent was from a of the signs they gave the public over the past 8 to 9 months. It wouldn't be the first insolvent business I've spotted.

Sturle can't admit he was wrong and that his shilling for gox was for financial gain at the expense of others.

[Bit_Happy]

I'd like to join the lawsuit so PM me if interested.

You are gambled, and you lost.
Now what you want ?

He wants to join the Mt.Gox Multi-plaintiff Suit
FYI: The Mt.Gox Multi-plaintiff Suit is the subject of this thread. 

[psilos]

Hi guys,

has anyone singed for the claim with Selachii LLP law company?

In the attached letter several legal terms and procedures are mentioned which I am not familiar with.

Also did you check the latest anouncement of MtGox?

"...Rehabilitation claims under a civil rehabilitation procedure become confirmed from a filing which is followed by an investigation procedure. The method for filing claims will be published on this site as soon as we will be in situation to announce it."

Can anyone with deeper knowledge on legal issues explain what this practically mean? Will at some point MtGox allow filing claims for the loss BTC and deposits? If that s case is there really an added value to join a lawsuit against Mtgox?

Any feedback is appreciated

[sturle]

I never supported MtGox

Yes, you did:

Quote from: smoothie on February 09, 2014, 12:57:40 PM
+1 Mr. Sturle lacks logic when it comes to customers being fucked over in all of MTGOX's short comings. And myself being also called an idiot by him shows his lack of understanding of what customers should be able to do.

I can fully understand the frustration of people who can't get to their money.  Claiming they don't have the BTC, and asking for total irresponsible behaviour to "prove" they have the BTC, is 100% idiocy.

Still true.  I think it was irresponsible to put the recovered 200k BTC into their shuffling system as well, knowing about at least two security breaches.  This is common sense, not a statement of support.

We all know that this technical glitch has all the signs of a technical glitch, and absolutely no signs of MtGox being out of BTC.  In fact they filled up their hot wallet several times during last week, as you could see by withdrawals suddenly working well for a short while, using very old inputs, until they started failing because the old spent inputs came back on top of the list (sorted by age).  I took the opportunity to withdraw just after refill, and got myself a new round of profit by buying MtGox BTC at a discount with BTC I withdrew from MtGox.  You will know they are going to refill within 2 hours of withdrawals to external addresses starting to fail with "invalid address".  (Withdrawal to MtGox deposit addresses still work when the hot wallet is empty.)

You are obviously not a technical or scientific person.  You rely on belief and rumour instead of facts and logic.  I am a technical person.  I dig into the real matters, investigating what holds water and what is just empty rumours.  That's why I am right every time.

Do you think the loss was caused by other reasons than a technical glitch?  They are not out of BTC, and the full story isn't out yet.  I have reason to believe that only about 1300 BTC were lost due to the malleability bug, and I am looking forward to the results of the investigations going on.  Note that the devs tend to agree on the signs.  Most of them had large amounts of BTC on MtGox themselves, which I'm sure they wouldn't if they had reasons to believe the issue was serious.

Anyway, this is completely off-topic here.  Please send a PM if you have any further questions.

[BitOnyx]

I expect more and more legal actions soon. I actually expect there are ones not even mention on this forum.

[Nagle]

Anyway, this is completely off-topic here.  Please send a PM if you have any further questions.

Funny how a thread this guy started becomes "off topic" after he's caught lying.

[smoothie]

Anyway, this is completely off-topic here.  Please send a PM if you have any further questions.

Funny how a thread this guy started becomes "off topic" after he's caught lying.

The guy is a dirtbag. He is backpedaling now on all the support he has ever given MTGOX.

LOL so funny to see people do this when they are proven wrong.

Not once did he ever admit he was wrong or may be wrong.

[smoothie]

I never supported MtGox

Yes, you did:

Quote from: smoothie on February 09, 2014, 12:57:40 PM
+1 Mr. Sturle lacks logic when it comes to customers being fucked over in all of MTGOX's short comings. And myself being also called an idiot by him shows his lack of understanding of what customers should be able to do.

I can fully understand the frustration of people who can't get to their money.  Claiming they don't have the BTC, and asking for total irresponsible behaviour to "prove" they have the BTC, is 100% idiocy.

Still true.  I think it was irresponsible to put the recovered 200k BTC into their shuffling system as well, knowing about at least two security breaches.  This is common sense, not a statement of support.

We all know that this technical glitch has all the signs of a technical glitch, and absolutely no signs of MtGox being out of BTC.  In fact they filled up their hot wallet several times during last week, as you could see by withdrawals suddenly working well for a short while, using very old inputs, until they started failing because the old spent inputs came back on top of the list (sorted by age).  I took the opportunity to withdraw just after refill, and got myself a new round of profit by buying MtGox BTC at a discount with BTC I withdrew from MtGox.  You will know they are going to refill within 2 hours of withdrawals to external addresses starting to fail with "invalid address".  (Withdrawal to MtGox deposit addresses still work when the hot wallet is empty.)

You are obviously not a technical or scientific person.  You rely on belief and rumour instead of facts and logic.  I am a technical person.  I dig into the real matters, investigating what holds water and what is just empty rumours.  That's why I am right every time.

Do you think the loss was caused by other reasons than a technical glitch?  They are not out of BTC, and the full story isn't out yet.  I have reason to believe that only about 1300 BTC were lost due to the malleability bug, and I am looking forward to the results of the investigations going on.  Note that the devs tend to agree on the signs.  Most of them had large amounts of BTC on MtGox themselves, which I'm sure they wouldn't if they had reasons to believe the issue was serious.

Anyway, this is completely off-topic here.  Please send a PM if you have any further questions.

@Sturle,

HEY STURLE WHERE ARE YOUR MTGOX POM POMS AND CHEERLEADING SKIRT?

LOL

[Bit_Happy]

Anyway, this is completely off-topic here.  Please send a PM if you have any further questions.

Funny how a thread this guy started becomes "off topic" after he's caught lying.

The guy is a dirtbag. He is backpedaling now on all the support he has ever given MTGOX.

LOL so funny to see people do this when they are proven wrong.

Not once did he ever admit he was wrong or may be wrong.

If I had over 1/2 a Billion $$$'s I would buy out Gox, pay everyone back, and re-launch with a new brand.
I have great memories of the first major bull run, and was a huge supporter of Gox.
...and I admit to being very wrong.
Gox had a 80 to 90% market share and the chances of them blowing it seemed so small...

[Ominub]

If I had over 1/2 a Billion $$$'s I would buy out Gox, pay everyone back, and re-launch with a new brand.
I have great memories of the first major bull run, and was a huge supporter of Gox.
...and I admit to being very wrong.
Gox had a 80 to 90% market share and the chances of them blowing it seemed so small...

I totally agree ...

[odedode4]

Hi Guys,

I had a balance in MT.Gox of 1000$ (not in BTC) that I withdrawn.

The bank transfer process to my bank account failed and they stopped replying my Emails couple of weeks before the bankruptcy.

Can I join the suit?


Thanks


Oded

[Ominub]

Hi Guys,
I had a balance in MT.Gox of 1000$ (not in BTC) that I withdrawn.
The bank transfer process to my bank account failed and they stopped replying my Emails couple of weeks before the bankruptcy.
Can I join the suit?
Thanks
Oded

I think you should join if your account balance was $ 1000. You also should have somewhere stored your communication with mtgox and your account statements or something similar what proves you still had money there.

[btcjedi]

We should better don't sue them until we all get our bitcoin out.

[fgbits]

Hi everyone,

I was also an unfortunate Gox-supporter with 53 BTC invested. I would like to join the suit if possible.


Cheers,

fgbits

[Ominub]

Hi, Btw: where we can fill the claim in bankruptcy court? I guess we have still to wait for further info at http://mtgox.com?

[zoroaster]

I've had almost 11 BTC inside my MtGox account. I even tried to withdraw at the end of January to my bank account, after that I converted back to BTC and executed a bitcoin transfer, which was still pending when MtGox shutted down. How do I join the multi suit? Thanks!!

[btcjdrive]

Have (had?) 50 btc at Mt. Gox. How to join the class action lawsuit?

[digitalninja81]

I have had 12 bitcoin at MtGox and now I wonder if it is possible to return it back or not??? A lot has happened and now I am totally confused what to think

[sturle]

Have (had?) 50 btc at Mt. Gox. How to join the class action lawsuit?

if you had BTC at MtGox, you should certainly not join this lawsuit.  The lawyers specifically stated that they are only going for fiat.  Which means your BTC will become worthless.  A simple solution which will make the lawyers and Mark very rich, as well as satisfy all fiat creditors, is this:

o Shill & Co Ltd buys MtGox and promise to pay back all creditors in JPY.  BTC and fiat converted to JPY at market value.
o Shill & Co Ltd sells most of their 202k BTC on the market in one go.  This will raise enough money to pay the fiat debt, and drop the BTC price to ~0.
o Shill & Co Ltd calculate what they owe you.  The market value of your 50 BTC will be less than 10 USD after the price drop.

At the end Shill & Co Ltd pay all their creditors and shut down, releasing the profit to their owners.  Mark will probably get a large share of it.  The lawyers will get their share of what MtGox owed the fiat creditors who joined the lawsuit.  The entire bitcoin industry will be left in ruins.

This is why you should make sure that your lawyers will work to get your BTC back as BTC, not fiat.  Do you want your BTC, or do you want to make Mark Karpeles a very rich man?  I don't think the BTC price will increase significantly as long as there is a slight possibility that MtGox, or a buyer, can get away with paying BTC debt with fiat.

[freedombit]

Is this the same suite as http://blog.mtgoxrecovery.com/?

[Nagle]

Have (had?) 50 btc at Mt. Gox. How to join the class action lawsuit?

if you had BTC at MtGox, you should certainly not join this lawsuit. 

BTC at Mt. Gox is an asset, and at some point in the bankruptcy, will be returned pro rata to the creditors or liquidated and the proceeds returned on a pro rata basis. If you're involved in a lawsuit, you have a voice about how this goes. If not, you don't.

The guy behind "mtgoxrecovery.com" seems to be the only creditor who is actually represented at the Tokyo District Court. Any creditor has the right to be, but they have to show up through a lawyer.

[rpietila]

Was it really so that according to the TOS of Mt.Gox, the instant I deposit my BTC to them, it becomes their "assets" that they "owe" me, instead of "customer funds" that they must "safeguard" for me?

If this question is resolved in the only sane manner that it can be ("customer funds" unless EXPLICITLY otherwise stated), it also becomes clear why the contents of the safety deposit boxes are not auctioned when a bank becomes bankrupt, and your car is not sold if you were having it painted when the painting shop goes broke. Instead, you property is returned.

Anyone?

[Bungeegum]

I have €1700 at Mt. Gox, I'd like to join suit too, but I have 0 knowledge of how the legal system works 
I wanted to verify my account, but they denied multiple times (I'm not a native speaker and I'm from the EU) they took more than a month to react to my account verification demand. And when I asked for support in verifying my account, they took weeks to respond and weren't helpful at all...

I'm a college student, and that was most of my savings..

Can someone send me some links to learn about bankruptcy and suing for bankruptcy [and how the system works in the EU & Japan]

Any help/info is welcome. 

[V.Kodoff]

If any of you like to start case in European court without need to visit the country contact us.
We have great strategy based on few country's laws based on USD and BTC.
Contact us via private message.

[spearshake23]

this is getting interesting, contact me plz

[Gyrsur]

*listen*

[Bungeegum]

I have €1700 at Mt. Gox, I'd like to join suit too, but I have 0 knowledge of how the legal system works 
I wanted to verify my account, but they denied multiple times (I'm not a native speaker and I'm from the EU) they took more than a month to react to my account verification demand. And when I asked for support in verifying my account, they took weeks to respond and weren't helpful at all...

I'm a college student, and that was most of my savings..

Can someone send me some links to learn about bankruptcy and suing for bankruptcy [and how the system works in the EU & Japan]

Any help/info is welcome. 

Check regularly on mtgox.com and read the faq's.
Join here http://www.mtgoxrecovery.com/ so you get the emails.

There should be in the future "a filing for proof of claims" which means you have to watch mtgox.com to file the claim by filling the document when necessary.

I've got $916 and 543btc left at gox to put things in perspective...don't eat yourself too much because of your 1700eur you still young and can make yours back easily and much more... just be optimistic and think positively and everything will work out. 

Cheers.

Thanks, you're right, I won't beat myself up because of it. I joined mtgoxrecovery.com. Thank you for posting the link!

Cheers.

[boumalo]

Was it really so that according to the TOS of Mt.Gox, the instant I deposit my BTC to them, it becomes their "assets" that they "owe" me, instead of "customer funds" that they must "safeguard" for me?

If this question is resolved in the only sane manner that it can be ("customer funds" unless EXPLICITLY otherwise stated), it also becomes clear why the contents of the safety deposit boxes are not auctioned when a bank becomes bankrupt, and your car is not sold if you were having it painted when the painting shop goes broke. Instead, you property is returned.

Anyone?

Simply put yes! It is how they justify all the regulations around the firms that provide a financial service or a money exchange (different regulations) when the simple market rule of the client choosing a safe bank to deposit its money would be more efficient

[Nagle]

Was it really so that according to the TOS of Mt.Gox, the instant I deposit my BTC to them, it becomes their "assets" that they "owe" me, instead of "customer funds" that they must "safeguard" for me?

If this question is resolved in the only sane manner that it can be ("customer funds" unless EXPLICITLY otherwise stated), it also becomes clear why the contents of the safety deposit boxes are not auctioned when a bank becomes bankrupt, and your car is not sold if you were having it painted when the painting shop goes broke. Instead, you property is returned.

Anyone?

It's a tough question. If Mt. Gox had been a licensed payment service under the Payment Services Act in Japan, then the money belongs to the customers, and if it "disappears", that's theft.  But Mt. Gox wasn't registered, and the Japan Financial Services Agency declined to claim jurisdiction.

If Mt. Gox had been a bank, then they would have been covered under the Japan Deposit Insurance Company policy up to Y10 million. But Mt. Gox wasn't a bank; they don't get that coverage.

I've seen legal opinions both ways on this. This matters; it determines whether Karpeles goes to jail, as well as the order of priority of creditors.

[rpietila]

I've seen legal opinions both ways on this. This matters; it determines whether Karpeles goes to jail, as well as the order of priority of creditors.

It is afaik even possible that the TOS are declared unenforceable by the court, so that they can just pool all the valuables that they find and distribute them without regard to owner, since they are commingled by Mark's actions anyway.

In every case, Mark should go to jail for blatantly breaking his own TOS by operating a ponzi with customer funds, and causing the situation where customer funds are not segregated.

[JorgeStolfi]

In some other thread, it was claimed that the liquidator will probably ignore whatever accounting MtGOX did internally, and consider only all your deposits into MtGOX minus all your withdrawals; converting dollar, euro, and BTC deposits/withdrawals to yen at the prevailing market rate at the time of the action.  If the balance is positive (you deposited more yen than you withdrew), then that is your cliam; if it is zero or negative, you have no claim and it would be pointless to apply.

Likewise the BTC in MtGOX wallets, and any other valuable assets, will probably be converted to yen by auction, and added to the bank account balances for the final distribution, proportional to the claims.

At least two people have confirmed that this is the standard procedure under US law (one pointed to Madoff's case as an example) and claimed that Japanese courts follow the same principle; and I haven't seen anyone disputing those claims.  

This is also arguably the "least unjust" criterion, and consistent with the general principle that lost opportunities and hypothetical profits ("if I had not given those BTC to MtGOX in September, I could be selling them today for 10'000$") are not actual losses in the eye of the law.  It has also many practical advantages, such as not depending on a database that may have been doctored: deposits and withdrawals, but not trades, can be confirmed by external sources.

EDIT: I presume however that the court will not consider people who had closed their accounts, or were covered by the clause in the TOS that allows MtGOX to close any account that has been inactive for 6 months. (Someone claimed this clause exists, I haven't checked). 

[sturle]

This is also arguably the "least unjust" criterion, and consistent with the general principle that lost opportunities and hypothetical profits

Absurd.  Considering the fact that a lot of people were actively speculating in the bankruptsy of MtGox, and bought huge amounts of BTC (deposits) during the final days, this will be very unjust and opens for very simple pumping of claims.  E.g. if I moved the BTC from my bot account, which is made up entirely by trading profits (withdrawals >> deposits), and worth 0 in this kind of liquidation, to my verified account, I would turn a claim of 0 into a claim of a huge amount.  If final balances are used, this kind of cheating would be impossible because a nagetive balance is impossible.

The Madoff case isn't similar to MtGox at all, IMHO.  Try an online poker site bankruptsy instead.  Would someone who deposited a ton of USD years before the bankruptsy, and lost it all in poker, suddenly have a claim?  While the winners who didn't withdraw in time got nothing?

[rpietila]

It is true that Mt.Gox internal accounting already has many versions circulating in public. It should be clear to all the ordinary accountholders what their account balance is, but the Mt.Gox insiders may have just added huge balances to themselves, in addition to possible thefts of BTC and privileged withdrawals.

Needless to say, having a claims process that requires independent proof from individual accountholders concerning their account activities, is unfeasible no matter how fair it was.

The Mt.Gox situation cries foul play to high heaven, and unfortunately there is no easy way out regarding how to distribute what remains. The first thing should be to recognize that this is a criminal case and leave the estate untouched until the criminals are prosecuted.

[JorgeStolfi]

This is also arguably the "least unjust" criterion, and consistent with the general principle that lost opportunities and hypothetical profits

Absurd.  Considering the fact that a lot of people were actively speculating in the bankruptsy of MtGox, and bought huge amounts of BTC (deposits) during the final days, this will be very unjust and opens for very simple pumping of claims.  E.g. if I moved the BTC from my bot account, which is made up entirely by trading profits (withdrawals >> deposits), and worth 0 in this kind of liquidation, to my verified account, I would turn a claim of 0 into a claim of a huge amount.  If final balances are used, this kind of cheating would be impossible because a nagetive balance is impossible.

We already discussed this on another thread.  Doing that would be trying to defraud the court, like a furniture store claiming a debt that was actually paid.  If you were to claim 0 withdrawals (in writing, as part of a judicial procedure) and your bot account eventually got tied to you by the auditors, you would be in real trouble.

The Madoff case isn't similar to MtGox at all, IMHO.  Try an online poker site bankruptsy instead.  Would someone who deposited a ton of USD years before the bankruptsy, and lost it all in poker, suddenly have a claim?  While the winners who didn't withdraw in time got nothing?

It would be useful to have concrete examples of that, yes.

But I wonder whether poker site failures ever resulted in bankruptcy proceedings.  Such sites must have had very few assets left to pay for bankruptcy, and civil suits would not yield much.  Unless the owers could be charged with fraud, in which case their personal assets would be seized.

In an eventual bankruptcy of a poker site, the criterion must depend on how the court sees the deposits.  I am totally guessing now, but if the money you deposited is viewed as advance payment for the service of allowing you to play, then your claim would be proportional to the service that you paid for but did not get: namely, the total amount you deposited, minus the amount you withdrew, minus the total stake of the games that you got to play in the site.   So, if you deposited 50$, made 10 bets of 3$ each, and withdrew 15$, all before the site closed, then your claim would be 50 - (10 x 3) - 15 = 5$, irrespective of how the bets went.  This hypothetical criterion would probably result in very few positive claims.

[JorgeStolfi]

Needless to say, having a claims process that requires independent proof from individual accountholders concerning their account activities, is unfeasible no matter how fair it was.

But that is unfortunately necessary, and seems to be the standard way.  Large companies that go bankrupt may have thousands of creditors, some with hundreds of unpaid bills or undelivered products.

One advantage of the input-output criterion above is that the creditors would need to furnish proof only of their deposits (for which they must have got printed records), not for all their trades in the site; and then subtract the total withdrawals from that to get the claim amount.   Since one cannot prove a non-withdrawal, it should be the liquidator's task to check that the client did not withdraw more than what he stated.

The Mt.Gox situation cries foul play to high heaven, and unfortunately there is no easy way out regarding how to distribute what remains. The first thing should be to recognize that this is a criminal case and leave the estate untouched until the criminals are prosecuted.

I may be wrong, but it does not seem necessary to wait for the criminal case before distributing the remains to the creditros.  Any assets eventually seized from the criminals would be distribued at a later time, to the same creditors, in the same proportions.   Even if the criminal investigation finds that some clients were involved in the crime, their share could be seized back and distributed to the other creditors.  

In any case, from what I read, the owners and managers should not get anything, until all other claims are paid -- even if they are innocent.

EDIT: line break, "In any case"

[sturle]

This is also arguably the "least unjust" criterion, and consistent with the general principle that lost opportunities and hypothetical profits

Absurd.  Considering the fact that a lot of people were actively speculating in the bankruptsy of MtGox, and bought huge amounts of BTC (deposits) during the final days, this will be very unjust and opens for very simple pumping of claims.  E.g. if I moved the BTC from my bot account, which is made up entirely by trading profits (withdrawals >> deposits), and worth 0 in this kind of liquidation, to my verified account, I would turn a claim of 0 into a claim of a huge amount.  If final balances are used, this kind of cheating would be impossible because a nagetive balance is impossible.

We already discussed this on another thread.  Doing that would be trying to defraud the court, like a furniture store claiming a debt that was actually paid.  If you were to claim 0 withdrawals (in writing, as part of a judicial procedure) and your bot account eventually got tied to you by the auditors, you would be in real trouble.

So what?  I could have sold my bot's profits to someone else.  This doesn't change a thing.  It would be very easy to turn a complete loss to a high profit, and I am certain that some people have speculated in exactly this outcome.

The Madoff case isn't similar to MtGox at all, IMHO.  Try an online poker site bankruptsy instead.  Would someone who deposited a ton of USD years before the bankruptsy, and lost it all in poker, suddenly have a claim?  While the winners who didn't withdraw in time got nothing?

It would be useful to have concrete examples of that, yes.

But I wonder whether poker site failures ever resulted in bankruptcy proceedings.  Such sites must have had very few assets left to pay for bankruptcy, and civil suits would not yield much.  Unless the owers could be charged with fraud, in which case their personal assets would be seized.

In an eventual bankruptcy of a poker site, the criterion must depend on how the court sees the deposits.  I am totally guessing now, but if the money you deposited is viewed as advance payment for the service of allowing you to play, then your claim would be proportional to the service that you paid for but did not get: namely, the total amount you deposited, minus the amount you withdrew, minus the total stake of the games that you got to play in the site.   So, if you deposited 50$, made 10 bets of 3$ each, and withdrew 15$, all before the site closed, then your claim would be 50 - (10 x 3) - 15 = 5$, irrespective of how the bets went.  This hypothetical criterion would probably result in very few positive claims.

Not only would it result in very few positive claims, it would result in most of what's left (if more than a few dollars) are left unclaimed.  Would make it very profitable to start a poker site, spend a dollar more than you owe your customers and declare bankruptsy.

There must be dozens of cases.  Just google for "online poker site bankrupt".  At least one of them must have had the decency to declare bankruptsy before all user deposits were spent.

[JorgeStolfi]

So what?  I could have sold my bot's profits to someone else.  This doesn't change a thing.  It would be very easy to turn a complete loss to a high profit, and I am certain that some people have speculated in exactly this outcome.

I don't get your point. The court does not care about any deals you may have made outside or inside the system.

The auditor will find an unverified account with lots of withdrawals, and will try to identify its owner.  If emails, http logs, or other evidence connect that account to you, and you did not subtract those withdrawals from your claim, you are fried. (Here in Brazil, the penalty for making a false statement in an official document for personal advantage is 1 to 5 years in jail, apart from other crimes incurred.)

If the auditor fails to identify the owner of that account, well, lucky of you.  It would be just as if you had stolen a pile of cash from the supermarket's cash register, and by luck the security camera was not working at the time.  Some people do make plans like that, indeed.

There must be dozens of cases.  Just google for "online poker site bankrupt".  At least one of them must have had the decency to declare bankruptsy before all user deposits were spent.

Thanks, but I would not be so indelicate as to take that pleasant task away from you. 

[JorgeStolfi]

[The hypothetical poker bankruptcy criterion]  would make it very profitable to start a poker site, spend a dollar more than you owe your customers and declare bankruptsy.

Yes indeed.  Could perhaps that explain why there were so many bankrupt poker sites?

Doing that with a bitcoin exchange is even more fun and profitable.  Just claim that there was a hack. 

This university outsources its janitorial services.  Every couple of years, the contractor declares bankruptcy, after accumulating huge debts in labor benefits and taxes, and fires all its janitors and managers.  The university then solicits again bids for janitorial services; the best bid is usually from a newly created company, that hires back all those janitors and managers.  Can't avoid that, unfortunately...

[sturle]

So what?  I could have sold my bot's profits to someone else.  This doesn't change a thing.  It would be very easy to turn a complete loss to a high profit, and I am certain that some people have speculated in exactly this outcome.

I don't get your point. The court does not care about any deals you may have made outside or inside the system.

My point is that I could get exactly the same outcome by selling the BTC in my bot account to someone else with transfer inside of MtGox, as if I had transferred to my verified account on MtGox.  They would have to see this as a withdrawal from the bot account and a deposit on the buyer's account.  Otherwise a lot of deposits will turn out to be worthless.  In the days of 80% market share most of my BTC withdrawals from MtGox were sales to other people with a MtGox account, who just wanted to bootstrap their account through a domestic bank transfer instead of all the hassle of transfering money to Japan.  Internal transfers all the way. 

In the good old days you could deposit and withdraw fiat via internal transfers as well (redeemable codes).  Old codes were redeemable until the end, and BTC codes could be made via the API until the end.  What if someone with a new account makes a claim based on a reemable code of 1000 BTC?

The auditor will find an unverified account with lots of withdrawals, and will try to identify its owner.  If emails, http logs, or other evidence connect that account to you, and you did not subtract those withdrawals from your claim, you are fried. (Here in Brazil, the penalty for making a false statement in an official document for personal advantage is 1 to 5 years in jail, apart from other crimes incurred.)

I think you greatly overestimate the amount of work they are going to put into it, if they choose the simple solution.  There are going to be a lot of false positives (they are going to identfy the accounts of many of my customers this way, because they only received BTC from my MtGox account), and it is irrelevant due to the reason I mentioned above.

There must be dozens of cases.  Just google for "online poker site bankrupt".  At least one of them must have had the decency to declare bankruptsy before all user deposits were spent.

Thanks, but I would not be so indelicate as to take that pleasant task away from you. 

Sorry, I don't have the required insight into US legalese, or even how to find the relevant documents.

[Praeconium]

What does latest announcement regarding holding talks in US actually mean?

[mastor_blastor]

What does latest announcement regarding holding talks in US actually mean?

I read through the "Amended Recognition Petition", and this is what i gathered:

1. It recognizes that the main proceeding is the Japan bankruptcy proceeding.
2. It specifically gives Nobuaki Kobayashi (The duly authorized foreign representative) the right to examine witnesses, take evidence or deliver information concerning Mt Gox's assets, affairs, rights, obligations or liabilities of all of the Debtor’s assets within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

It does not mention Sunlot or any of that stuff at all.

[Nagle]

What does latest announcement regarding holding talks in US actually mean?

This hearing is because the trustee in Japan asked for Chapter 15 bankruptcy in the US, which is an unusual procedure used in international bankruptcies. The hearing is to establish that the bankruptcy in the US is part of the main one in Japan. A US judge has to sign off on that.

How much else will happen at that hearing isn't clear. The Sunlot crowd might try something.

[pierk]

Can I get in on this?

[Galli]

Do we have to do anything in regards to the hearing in Texas? I received a vague email stating that I should follow the requested action in the attachment but the attachment looked more like a protest filing than a "please include me, i'm desperate" thing

This process is wildly confusing...