Mt.Gox Multi-plaintiff Suit

[dynodog]

Even if they open Bitcoin withdrawal tomorrow. Please Continue this Lawsuit!

on what grounds?  and if you ended up getting back the bitcoins and/or the money in your account, what are the damages?  even if there were damages due to delays in getting customers their bitcoin or money back, given that bitcoin is a new technology, and the company wanted to ensure that customers were not being double paid, the court would likely not find the company liable for any damages due to the delays.   

My gut tells me that a large number of people are not selling bitcoin on mtgox; instead, it's a few whales.  The question is why? 

[CompNsci]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website, I think one could go ahead other incidental damages and certainly interest on the amounts involved for the length of the delay.

The fraud-like aspects, not properly disclosing, could be strong grounds for additional damages (at least if Japanese law is similar to the US in this regard).

Please continue the lawsuit. They need to pay damages for the delays and it will serve as a warning to others.

[repentance]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website, I think one could go ahead other incidental damages and certainly interest on the amounts involved for the length of the delay.

The fraud-like aspects, not properly disclosing, could be strong grounds for additional damages (at least if Japanese law is similar to the US in this regard).

Please continue the lawsuit. They need to pay damages for the delays and it will serve as a warning to others.

A lawsuit which isn't going to be determined for a very long time isn't going to influence the behaviour of other services now.  If it was, then MtGox would already have changed its behaviour as conversion, negligence and breach of contract are all causes of action in the Cartmell et al lawsuit against Bitcoinica.

It's also only going to "serve as a warning to others" at some time in the future if the plaintiffs actually prevail.  If they don't, then it's only going to further entrench undesirable behaviour by Bitcoin services.

It's also worth remembering that while you can sue anyone for anything in the US, that's not the case everywhere else.  Before you even consider litigation in a foreign jurisdiction you need to first establish how its legal system differs from your own.  What options are open to you in the US is pretty irrelevant if the US isn't the jurisdiction involved.  You need the advice of experienced litigators in the jurisdiction where you'll be filing rather than guessing about what might be possible under a legal system with which you're unfamiliar.

[sturle]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

The reasons for JPY and EUR delays are properly explained IMO.  The reason for USD delays are not explained for legal reasons which they aren't allowed to talk about.  All USD transfers must pass through a US bank, which gives the US government full control.  MagicalTux have given plenty of hints on IRC and Twitter that the US government is involved in blocking those.  Good luck in getting a Japanese court to overrule the US government regarding USD transfers.  AFAIK all attempts of legal action against MtGox in the US to get USD out have failed, and to this day I haven't got a proper explanation of why all the attempts have failed.

[repentance]

AFAIK all attempts of legal action against MtGox in the US to get USD out have failed, and to this day I haven't got a proper explanation of why all the attempts have failed.

Mark's comment that a US court isn't going to order MtGox to do something they're not allowed to do under US law probably has some merit.  He's being an ass about it but no court can force the financial institutions with which MtGox deals to allow them to move unlimited amounts of USD, when those limits are a result of compliance with US law. 

MtGox should probably have just abandoned the USD market altogether as their "workarounds" never pan out and they keep opening themselves up to more and more potential consequences by continuing to serve that market.  Unfortunately, the very real limitations imposed on USD transactions due to compliance with various AML laws and treaties also benefit companies wishing to hide their financial instability.

[raskul]

The delays in fiat withdrawals continue, particularly for USD. Since these are not properly disclosed (or even the need to pay the 5% fee for a "manual withdrawal") on the website

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

the 5% is fair if ye want yer money

[CompNsci]

The reason for the 5% fee is explained very well.  They can't send from their normal bank, and have to transfer the funds via domestic transfer first.  This makes two currency exchange fees at 2.5% each, which is a common currency exchange fee in Japanese banks.  USD -> JPY -> USD.  You are obliged to cover the bank fees (see the ToS).  You can find the currency exchange fee the multi-currency trading FAQ.

Is it explained properly for a new user who creates an account and then sells some bitcoin, expecting to receive the proceeds? I believe that will be the question before the court in determining if there is a fraudulent inducement. Maybe I missed it, but the last time I looked there was not even a mention of the manual withdrawal and 5% fee on the main withdrawal process pages.

Those of us who read the forums or the IRC may discover these things, but those don't strike me as reasonable disclosure.

[CompNsci]

A lawsuit which isn't going to be determined for a very long time isn't going to influence the behaviour of other services now.  If it was, then MtGox would already have changed its behaviour as conversion, negligence and breach of contract are all causes of action in the Cartmell et al lawsuit against Bitcoinica.

It's also only going to "serve as a warning to others" at some time in the future if the plaintiffs actually prevail.  If they don't, then it's only going to further entrench undesirable behaviour by Bitcoin services.

Probably best to attack them on both the civil and criminal fronts simultaneously. I'm not a fan of regulation, as it borders on prior restraint, though I certainly think we should bring all legal means to bear once the crime or tort has been committed.

[Bit_Happy]

Wallstreet and bankers will buy up all cheap BTC's and then it goes up again. If the community is weak they will get it cheap, if the community is strong they will have to pay a premium.

Greedy people are weak when the prices fall quickly.

[Nagle]

Another legal option in Japan is to take Mt. Gox into involuntary bankruptcy. That option is available when a company is demonstrably far behind on paying multiple creditors. That's not hard to prove here.

Bingham has an overview of Japan's various forms of bankruptcy, but it's oriented more towards large corporate bankruptcies in which lending banks are the major creditors. That's not the case here. This is likely to be a liquidation. (If you go looking for bankruptcy law in Japan, be aware that it changed in 2004-2005, and older documents are not too relevant.)

A big advantage of bankruptcy is that the process starts fast. Within a week or two of filing, injunctions, trustees, and examiners are in place, and the old management is no longer in a position to remove assets.

[Boggletek]

If we lost money in the dump from their news can we join in?

Seems to me their ignorance cost everyone greatly.

[tclo]

Don't sue them until we all get our BTC out.

[morningtime]

And AFAIK none of the lawsuits have been successful so far.  So why lose 2.5% extra when selling to get a currency which they have problems delivering?  This just doesn't make sense to me.  EUR should be just as good as USD, and more liquid.  JPY even better.  So why USD?

And btw, I received an EUR (SEPA) withdrawal today.  If you are going to sell anyway, this is a way of getting your funds out as fiat without paying money to an expensive law firm.  Works for those who doesn't have enough in their MtGox account to be interesting as well.

Great idea, if the price goes back up on Mt.Gox, I'll sell for fiat and withdraw using SEPA.

[ebolivia]

If what I'm reading in this thread is true, and multiple parties are initiating lawsuits against Mt.Gox, then I really don't see how they are going to make it through this inevitable shit storm.  The last I read Mt. Gox has around a millions of clients (correct me if i'm wrong).  OP offered to bring others on board his multi plaintiff lawsuit (specifically stating those with more than $10k at stake), only to receive such an overwhelming response that he had to extend a couple of days in order to line up who was going to go in on it.  I have to imagine that most whales have already initiated their own suits.  This just doesn't look good.  I really don't think this issue has gotten enough attention.

[pinarello]

And AFAIK none of the lawsuits have been successful so far.  So why lose 2.5% extra when selling to get a currency which they have problems delivering?  This just doesn't make sense to me.  EUR should be just as good as USD, and more liquid.  JPY even better.  So why USD?

And btw, I received an EUR (SEPA) withdrawal today.  If you are going to sell anyway, this is a way of getting your funds out as fiat without paying money to an expensive law firm.  Works for those who doesn't have enough in their MtGox account to be interesting as well.

Great idea, if the price goes back up on Mt.Gox, I'll sell for fiat and withdraw using SEPA.

more than 6 weeks waiting, still no money, also witdrawing using sepa is on hold.

and most of all my money doesnt show in my account eather, so were is it?

[Luno]

Please explain this to me, I still don't get it:

Earlier in this thread, page 4 or 5, there was a claim that USD has never been withdrawn by costumers from GOX Japan because of legal demands, and they were not to disclose the fact it was impossible???

This sounds extremely strange in my ears. The only sensible reason would be that they had agreed with their suing ex partner (Coin lab) that all US business and assets were their property, but why would that be a secret, and why would all parties interests be to make money move asap for the sake of the value of GOX and assets anyway?

The bank holding their USD balances could be under pressure and freeze their accounts and not giving a reason Gox would be proud of disclosing. -That I can understand.

That would however not make it impossible for Gox to honour USD costumers, they could buy USD in one of their other banks if a costumer wanted to withdraw. That would carry additional fees but it would not be an argument to stall.

Is a costumer trading account balance denominated in USD proof of them having a similar amount USD some where? -not necessary, they have not been operating as a bank, so how can they have legal obligations to keep a costumers balances in the right currency. They do however, would have to have assets in currencies and BTC totalling the amount owed to costumers to stay solvent in a square sense.

So are the USD "claimed" held on Gox "evidence" in an investigation somehow? That would not either be an excuse as they still could honour costumers out of their own pockets.

Do the US have a certain magical ability to judge someone's USD holdings untouchable? I think not, that would destroy US economy by reducing trust in USD if that was common practice, they are not North Korea.

I've had an USD denominated only account there always, and I have never intended or tried to withdraw them as USD, only as EUR to my own bank. I have never speculated if they i reality had USD to pay me, as they forcefully would be converted to EUR by my own bank when they arrived.

Gox had also made it clear that they could not transfer USD to my bank account and they had to be converted, so I have not in reality been a holder or creditor denominated in USD or have I?

[Sydboy]

I'm in Australia and those swines have 11.25 Bitcoins of mine.
My plan was to sell them to the guys buying Gox Bitcoins but now I don't think that is a good idea.
I would like to get involved to some degree. 11 Bitcoins isn't a fortune, but it does add up to 5 or 6k, a little more in AUD.

How do I join up ?

[bananas]

Cool, keep us informed of the lawsuit.

[analytics]

This is likely another scam/lie to manipulate the market.  No evidence at all.   Converting your bitcoin to USD will drive the price down.

Unless this person can show who they are and evidence of a lawsuit, you would be wise to ignore this user and his posts.

[bananas]

This is likely another scam/lie to manipulate the market.  No evidence at all.   Converting your bitcoin to USD will drive the price down.

Unless this person can show who they are and evidence of a lawsuit, you would be wise to ignore this user and his posts.

Lawsuits have a number that enables you to check it out on a governamental site. Let's wait him provide us the number and link to check it out.