Most Bitcoin will be clawed back due to widespread theft

[AnonyMint]

Only a person who wants to end up destitute would obtain Bitcoins. Sending Bitcoin to someone is the antithesis of love, it is a kiss of trouble and woe in the future.

I am very sad about this. I had high hopes for decentralized currency. Unfortunately, unless we can perfect widespread anonymity then this entire decentralized currency concept is dead in the future.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5413937#msg5413937

You should realize that this means all BTC you own and all the gains you accrue can be clawed back from you in the future.

Theft of BTC is very widespread even without the exchanges and with the Mt.Gox fiasco (and more to come because the government + banks can bankrupt all the exchanges with regulations, fines, placing holds on funds, etc, or even send in secret agencies to steal the keys).

For those readers trying to rationalize away the contract between accounts holders and Mt.Gox, you have no legal standing. Bitcoin is not legal tender. So many governments have spoken on this already and declared it to be a commodity. Clearly we are looking at a big legal mess with Bitcoin which the government is going to have to solve holistically. Now you see I was correct from the very beginning in Bitcoin : The Digital Kill Switch.

All you Bitcoin millionaires are going to be Bitcoin jailbirds and destitute.

For those who are rationalizing away the chain of ownership (I explained upthread) due to that the lack of physical nature to Bitcoin, you don't have any chance of winning that argument. If it wasn't owned, it wouldn't have value that can be exchanged. Even if we are trading fungible tokens in a pool, the tokens are still owned. Cripes, are you guys totally ingenuous or ignorant.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5414095#msg5414095

Oh, bold and red font.. Must be legit.

Continue to ignore it please. I will be watching all Bitards fall into the abyss together when the mess comes to the point that you can't find any one to buy your coins, yet you are liable for all the clawback amount.

Mansions will be confiscated. Paddy rides to debtors prison will be ensue when you can't pay.

Failure to understand Bitcoin will indeed cost investors billions. 744,408 BTC stolen (nearly 7% of total mined coins to date) and some people seem to be cheering like this is a good thing because they don’t like (long despised) MtGox. This is far far from over.  Where did those stolen coins go? Well check your wallet because they were likely fed back to the markets. If you have been buying bitcoins on any exchange chances are you have some of the stolen loot yourself. These stolen coins can be traced back to their true owner in a direct chain of title thanks to the block chain. If you don’t think this matters you don’t understand the legal system and the principle of Nemo dat quod non habet

Under both American and English law the original owner of stolen property can demand ownership be returned to him if he can prove a chain of title (something the blockchain conveniently provides). The only recourse for an innocent buyer of stolen goods (and only in some jurisdictions) is to argue the exchange it was bought from had an implied warranty and he can try to sue the exchange after returning the coins to the true owner. MtGox is insolvent good luck there. BTC-e is run by anonymous folks think they will stick around in the face of massive lawsuits?

But cheer up there is still a chance most MtGox victims will get their coins back. The threat of massive unending lawsuits targeting innocent bitcoin buyers is an existential one for bitcoin. The 10-15 early adopters stand (by far) to lose the most if bitcoin goes down in flames. They might actually decide to buy out MtGox for the 744,408 bitcoins (an amount grossly exceeding the worth of the company) not because they are altruistic people, but because the chain of lawsuits that would follow if they don't act may hurt their holdings more than the loss of 744,408 bitcoins. It’s a lot of money, however, so its likely a difficult call for them. Regardless expect all future exchanges to require both rigorous identity checks prior to buying and selling as well as fine print stating that anyone who supplies coins to a market is ultimately responsible in the event those coins are determined to be “black” or stolen goods in the future.

Still think there is no need for truly anonymous cryptocurrency?

Serious problem for Bitcoin now:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5407521#msg5407521

More:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=486872.msg5408045#msg5408045

I hope readers can start to comprehend why coin taint is the most serious Achilles heel of Bitcoin.

On Friday, 2 BTC were stolen from me. I am considering reporting this to law enforcement. This means that anyone who receives BTC which derives from my stolen 2 BTC will be liable to return them back to me.

Perhaps the thief pushed them through a mixer such as Bigcoinfog.com

Thus that mixer will be liable to provide records. If it can't, then it will be liable for the 2 BTC.

So you can't you see you are playing with fire by mixing your coins through a centralized mixer.

And can't you see that without widespread anonymity (and decentralized mixers!), then crypto-currency is absolutely useless except to a government which wants a ledger from hell to track everything.

[1715198069]

1715198069

[1715198069]

1715198069

[1715198069]

1715198069

[1715198069]

1715198069

[1715198069]

1715198069

[BittBurger]

Why do dummies like you think posting isolated scary posts on a discussion forum will make the price drop, so you can buy cheaper?

Stop being a complete idiot.

One one-millionth of the people who own bitcoin will see your thread.   And therefore the price wont drop because of it.

-B-

[Meuh6879]

actual economy crash like mtgox crash ... because, economy use "fraudulate paper money" to supply the world.
price up.

so, bitcoin is the next : regulate money (not by the same that they have invented the actual economy).
they can always "play with the wallstreet" ... but, when they lost, the lost "really" !

[AnonyMint]

The price will continue to go up. To suck more of you in to owing larger amounts of clawback.

Please buy.

Selling won't make the culpability go away. Once you own Bitcoins, you are screwed.

Make all the posts you want, you are still screwed. 

You think I am happy about this?! 

[Lauda]

The less, the more. ~Bitcoins' law
You're spreading FUD again, why?

[ethought]

The price will continue to go up. To suck more of you in to owing larger amounts of clawback.

Please buy.

I used to think you made some interesting points Anonymint, however after reading your OP and recent posts from you I think you are teetering dangerously into crazy person territory.

[AnonyMint]

Attack the messager please. And continue to dig your hole for yourself. Continue to obtain more Bitcoins. It is your destiny.

[ethought]

Attack the messager please. And continue to dig your hole yourself. Please obtain more Bitcoins.

I will.

[AnonyMint]

That is great. Because one of us will be correct. And so now the line in the sand is drawn.

On one side is the abyss. Feel free to stay on that side of the line.

[Lauda]

Attack the messager please. And continue to dig your hole yourself. Please obtain more Bitcoins.

I will.

He's an foolish person, and possibly has a mental crypto disease or some sort of bitcoinfobia.
My 2 cents.

[practicaldreamer]

How about this going forward - financial services providers obtain insurance to cover them in the event of theft/fraud etc, and on the basis that they demonstrably exercise a duty of care and dilligence in their business dealings and in their fiduciary duty to their customers (it may be that the insurer requires a compliance with regulation perhaps ?).

   I buy 5 BTC on BTC-E that subsequently proves to have been stolen from XYZ exchange (and customers A ,B and C) - customers A, B and C receive their stolen BTC back. I (and BTC-E) receive recompense from the insurance company of exchange XYZ.  

[AnonyMint]

How about this going forward - financial services providers obtain insurance to cover them in the event of theft/fraud etc, and on the basis that they demonstrably exercise a duty of care and dilligence in their business dealings and in their fiduciary duty to their customers (it may be that the insurer requires a compliance with regulation perhaps ?).

   I buy 5 BTC on BTC-E that subsequently proves to have been stolen from XYZ exchange (and customers A ,B and C) - customers A, B and C receive their stolen BTC back. I (and BTC-E) receive recompense from the insurance company of exchange XYZ.  

Yes the banksters+government will take control of Bitcoin. That is of course the only solution. And of course it appears to have been designed to fall into their lap.

And who was Satoshi again? (Hint: most realize he was likely an NSA researcher or group of NSA researchers)

Bitcoin is the honeypot to suck in all the gullible Libertarians to their demise. And it helps to spread the NWO digital currency, which is taken over eventually.

[testigodehumanidad]

Could you kindly explain how people holding and using bitcoin are going to be "jailbirds" and "destitute"?

[AnonyMint]

Could you kindly explain how people holding and using bitcoin are going to be "jailbirds" and "destitute"?

Try reading the OP and the links it contains.

Did you read CoinCube's posts? Did you read the linked thread?

The point is that the law is that stolen property can be clawed back.

A large % of BTC is stolen. You are probably holding some stolen BTC now. The longer that BTC trades, the higher the percentage of theft. Eventually all BTC will have been stolen multiple times. This is yet another reason that perpetual debasement (which Bitcoin doesn't have) is highly desirable, because virgin mined coins don't have this stigma.

The chain of ownership it is on the public ledger. All theft can later be traced ex post facto (at any time in the future when the theft is reported and investigated). The Statute of Limitations would probably be at least 5 years.

Ie: rs claims coins were stolen, sells them to persom b would withdraws to btce.com.. mtgox gives person b other coins from their hot wallet because the trade confirmation hasnt completed. The hot wallet coins have no connection to the stolen coins. They now belong to mtgox which claimed bankruptcy.

The Feds recently subpoened Mt.Gox to force them to retain trading records, so the chain of ownership will be known to law enforcement.

[practicaldreamer]

The point is that the law is that stolen property can be clawed back.

A large % of BTC is stolen. You are probably holding some stolen BTC now. The longer that BTC trades, the higher the percentage of theft.

In the fiat economy only cash would not be able to be accounted for in the same way as you describe above re.theft/BTC. That is, only cash transactions are anonymous.
  Cash only represents around 3% of the money in circulation in the economy.

The question then becomes - is BTC more prone to theft than say theft via credit cards (for eg) ? Is this what you are saying ? I can't myself see why BTC would necessarily be more prone to theft.

[AnonyMint]

In the end, clawing back bitcoins will stand no ground when you are the number 12 holder in a range of 30+

Law enforcement will clawback against any one along the chain of ownership that they can. You are providing more opportunities for them to find someone they can prosecute.

Anonymity is going to be very, very important.

Otherwise move to a system of whitelisting such as described upthread by practicaldreamer.

[AnonyMint]

The question then becomes - is BTC more prone to theft than say theft via credit cards (for eg) ? Is this what you are saying ? I can't myself see why BTC would necessarily be more prone to theft.

Much more prone to theft because it is online.

And many coins are aggregated into one place (e.g. centralized exchanges) where the economy-of-scale for stealing is higher.

My 2 BTC were stolen when (using localbitcoins) I couldn't find a buyer to deposit to my USA bank account and I was in a rush. So I sold to someone who paid me in paypal. He had stolen access to someone's paypal account and so the payment was reversed.

And the point is that coins circulate, so eventually they could be stolen multiple times.    

This is not a moral and upstanding system.

We could potentially fix this with more technology (e.g. decentralized exchanges) and better education (do not use irreversible payment, offline decentralized wallets as standard, etc).

Or using a whitelisting system such as described by practicaldreamer (but then it is no longer decentralized and it becomes owned by the establishment).

[Keyser Soze]

What makes you so certain that the nemo dat rule will be applied to bitcoin? Isn't it at least plausible for a court to treat it similar to legal tender or other negotiable instruments?

[dbbit]

My 2 BTC were stolen when (using localbitcoins) I couldn't find a buyer to deposit to my USA bank account and I was in a rush. So I sold to someone who paid me in paypal. He had stolen access to someone's paypal account and so the payment was reversed.

Ahh, now I understand why you posted this!

With all due respect, you're an idiot for selling something via Paypal in person (or to any non-verified address). If you exchanged cash or gold for PayPal in person you would have been in the exact same situation. That doesn't mean cash or gold is bad.

Learn how to think for yourself. Be gladded the price of the lesson was only 2 BTC - it could have been worse.

[DooMAD]

*giant wall of bullshit*

For someone capable of producing giant walls of text to illustrate complex points, I find it odd that you're able to fall so flat on your face at the first logical hurdle.  Unless people are posting their addresses in public places, you'll have difficulty finding the actual person who has the coins.  Law enforcement can't do shit if there person who has the coins is in another jurisdiction.  There's no conceivable way you're ever going to force someone on the other side of the planet to give back "stolen" bitcoin unless they were directly involved in the theft and even then it would be incredibly difficult to do.  If you hide your private keys somewhere that no one can find it, there's no way to force anyone to surrender their cryptocurrency, stolen or otherwise.  The list of reasons why you're so monumentally wrong could go on for several pages.

There are several accounts on this forum that will likely find their way onto my ignore list at some point due to spouting incessant nonsense or outright FUD and you're running pretty high on the list right now.  Go cry wolf at the local looney asylum, or start talking sense, please.  I'm sure I'm not the only one getting tired of reading this shit.