The cancer that is Ponzi

[Vod]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

[boumalo]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

Then you could say that all casino games are sc.am as well, what is your definition of a sc.am??

If the ponzi owner doesn't run away with the money and if he doesn't advertise the ponzi as a safe investment it looks like a gambling game to me

[Vod]

Then you could say that all casino games are sc.am as well, what is your definition of a sc.am??

If the ponzi owner doesn't run away with the money and if he doesn't advertise the ponzi as a safe investment it looks like a gambling game to me

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

With a ponzi, someone is guaranteed to be ripped off, even if there is only one person!  As soon as the first person has deposited, the ponzi can no longer pay everything that is owed, and requires new deposits to pay old debts.

[Vortuarackne]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

This.

I have been running a ponzi site for more than a week now, we are currently on to round #3. Players understand and appreciate that when deposits dry up, a new round is started meaning those who have deposited towards the end of the previous round lose. That's the nature of a ponzi.

I think the term ponzi is probably misleading though as "ponzi" suggests deception. There is no deception involved here, players are aware of what they are gambling on, and they take that risk. For some, the rewards are bigger than playing in a casino, for others they lose their entire deposit. That's the risk they take.

The problem comes when "newbies" (which I still class myself as) come in trying to "get rich quick". They make a few payouts, but more often than not eventually disappear with the majority of deposits. This is what needs clamping down on, and this is not unique to ponzis.

Perhaps a restriction on starting a thread in the gambling section? You must be a full member or similar to try cut down on new users instantly advertising their site?

[roslinpl]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?  

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts.  

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

I said 95% because I dont want to say 100% because I cannot be sure is it really 100%.
Perhaps it is.

This are reasons why I dislike ponzis

[koshgel]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

I said 95% because I dont want to say 100% because I cannot be sure is it really 100%.
Perhaps it is.

This are reasons why I dislije ponzis

100% are scams because of the setup. How would it be logical to permanently receive more money than put in?

This is the same as the first law of thermodynamics. You can't get more work out of something than you put in a closed system.

The pyramid of "investors" keeps stacking until the latest "investors" can no longer be paid out and the pyramid collapses crushing any chumps that thought they could make a quick buck.

This isn't gambling. This is stealing by preying on greed.

[theymos]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

[Vortuarackne]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

I think this is the crux of it all. Are these "games" which are labelled as ponzis, actually ponzis? They use the same "business model" as ponzis, however beneath it all true Ponzis are scams; fraudulent and deceptive.

How can something which clearly defines its purpose, be either fraudulent or deceptive?

Bias-ly, I honest believe, certainly what PonziCoin is offering, to be another form of gambling. Perhaps it doesn’t belong in the main gambling section, perhaps it's not a "gamble" everyone would like to participate in, but it is by no means a "scam".

[koshgel]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

I think this is the crux of it all. Are these "games" which are labelled as ponzis, actually ponzis? They use the same "business model" as ponzis, however beneath it all true Ponzis are scams; fraudulent and deceptive.

How can something which clearly defines its purpose, be either fraudulent or deceptive?

Bias-ly, I honest believe, certainly what PonziCoin is offering, to be another form of gambling. Perhaps it doesn’t belong in the main gambling section, perhaps it's not a "gamble" everyone would like to participate in, but it is by no means a "scam".

Yes of course you're biased since you're a sleazy ponzi operator.

[koshgel]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

You aren't playing poker against the house. There is no house edge. Only a rake. You can't make the same comparison to traditional casino games.

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

At least create a subforum for pyramid schemes.

[malevolent]

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

There is a difference between deceiving people and offering all sorts of "investments" which turn out to be ponzis, and inviting people to gamble money into something that calls itself a ponzi, where the rules are known upfront.

[koshgel]

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

There is a difference between deceiving people and offering all sorts of "investments" which turn out to be ponzis, and inviting people to gamble money into something that calls itself a ponzi, where the rules are known upfront.

Are you being serious? It's like this forum and staff want to be help perpetuate the notion that bitcoin is only for drugs, gambling and money laundering.

I'm done trying to help out and be honest. Go to town fucking each other.

[Frankie]

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

There is a difference between deceiving people and offering all sorts of "investments" which turn out to be ponzis, and inviting people to gamble money into something that calls itself a ponzi, where the rules are known upfront.

That's the key difference.

When it's calling itself a ponzi, you know that the operator will win in the end--there's no deception in it--not unlike other forms of gambling, really. The only thing that really distinguishes it is that unlike casino banking games, players have an incentive to recruit more suckers so that they aren't holding the bag in the end. Kind of like a stupid form of poker, I guess, where the house rake is huge.

To each his own though.

[surfer43]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

Hmm... that begs the question: Is something called "Scam" a scam?
I don't think so.
Think of it as a donation.

[Vortuarackne]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

You aren't playing poker against the house. There is no house edge. Only a rake. You can't make the same comparison to traditional casino games.

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

At least create a subforum for pyramid schemes.

Definition of 'Ponzi Scheme'

A fraudulent investing scam promising high rates of return with little risk to investors. The Ponzi scheme generates returns for older investors by acquiring new investors. This scam actually yields the promised returns to earlier investors, as long as there are more new investors. These schemes usually collapse on themselves when the new investments stop.

Is a ponzi actually a ponzi when its labelled as a ponzi?

No promises are being made. Players gamble their coins at their own risk. Early players win, later players lose. Genuine operators take their cut, but as do any other business owners.

A line needs drawing between Ponzi operators who are honest - in it to make BTCBTCBTC through charging fees, and those who are in it to lure naive players and running off with all the coins.

People who refute there are honest Ponzi operators out there need to take a long hard look at their selves and put their own opinions of the game to one side.

I will use PonziCoin as an example as that is the only ponzi I can categorically say is "honest" - and that is because I run it! You can see from the site and the sheer fact it is now fully automated, I have put many hours into developing the site - my partner may say too many! I've invested my hours into this to ensure I have a stable system which I don’t have to hand hold every day, I don’t have players coming to me because their deposit has been missed, or a payout has been missed - it just works. To me, that isn’t the sign of someone, or something which is in it to make a "quick buck" and such sites are getting a bad name purely because some people here deem all of these "games" scams (Scam: a dishonest scheme; a fraud.).

I do however 100% agree there needs to be some filtering\restriction of threads being opened in the gambling sections. Too many players appear to have been conned by new Ponzis (and other games) opening up, which is affecting the draw to the entire gambling community.

[roslinpl]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

Hmm... that begs the question: Is something called "Scam" a scam?
I don't think so.
Think of it as a donation.

or like a charity I called it charity from a while hehe

[NLNico]

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Besides the "scam yes or no" discussion I think that this is the situation.

There are like 7 "anti ponzi - pls make own forum" topics already and many people agree with that. I can quote them if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious for anyone who is active in the gambling forum.

I do think there is a market for ponzis but "traditional gambling" and ponzi seem 2 completely different target groups to me. Also sometimes the first page of the gambling forum is covered by more than 50% ponzi so there are also enough topics to fill an own forum too.

I think the line is very clear. At this point sub forum could be called "Ponzi/HYIP Gambling" and all topics that include "ponzi" in the title could be moved to there already. Anything with "invest and get 120% unless you are the last" = ponzi, can be moved there. At this point it's that simple IMO.

[roslinpl]

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Besides the "scam yes or no" discussion I think that this is the situation.

There are like 7 "anti ponzi - pls make own forum" topics already and many people agree with that. I can quote them if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious for anyone who is active in the gambling forum.

I do think there is a market for ponzis but "traditional gambling" and ponzi seem 2 completely different target groups to me. Also sometimes the first page of the gambling forum is covered by more than 50% ponzi so there are also enough topics to fill an own forum too.

I think the line is very clear. At this point sub forum could be called "Ponzi/HYIP Gambling" and all topics that include "ponzi" in the title could be moved to there already. Anything with "invest and get 120% unless you are the last" = ponzi, can be moved there. At this point it's that simple IMO.

I think ponzi section will be never done.
And ponzis will be around untill world end.

I am not very happy with that.
But seems like people who play ponzi like ponzi

so maybe like I say, we are just overreacting

[surfer43]

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Besides the "scam yes or no" discussion I think that this is the situation.

There are like 7 "anti ponzi - pls make own forum" topics already and many people agree with that. I can quote them if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious for anyone who is active in the gambling forum.

I do think there is a market for ponzis but "traditional gambling" and ponzi seem 2 completely different target groups to me. Also sometimes the first page of the gambling forum is covered by more than 50% ponzi so there are also enough topics to fill an own forum too.

I think the line is very clear. At this point sub forum could be called "Ponzi/HYIP Gambling" and all topics that include "ponzi" in the title could be moved to there already. Anything with "invest and get 120% unless you are the last" = ponzi, can be moved there. At this point it's that simple IMO.

I think ponzi section will be never done.
And ponzis will be around untill world end.

no. ponzi == fad

[Vortuarackne]

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Besides the "scam yes or no" discussion I think that this is the situation.

There are like 7 "anti ponzi - pls make own forum" topics already and many people agree with that. I can quote them if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious for anyone who is active in the gambling forum.

I do think there is a market for ponzis but "traditional gambling" and ponzi seem 2 completely different target groups to me. Also sometimes the first page of the gambling forum is covered by more than 50% ponzi so there are also enough topics to fill an own forum too.

I think the line is very clear. At this point sub forum could be called "Ponzi/HYIP Gambling" and all topics that include "ponzi" in the title could be moved to there already. Anything with "invest and get 120% unless you are the last" = ponzi, can be moved there. At this point it's that simple IMO.

I think ponzi section will be never done.
And ponzis will be around untill world end.

no. ponzi == fad

I agree with this, I have seen each round gradually decrease in both value and # of transactions.