The cancer that is Ponzi

[koshgel]

These ponzi posts and threads are entirely overwhelming the gambling board. I understand that people need to make their own decision when "investing" and that ponzis are identified as a gamble but it's beyond that.  There is a reason 3/4 of that board is filled up with PONZI PONZI PONZI. These operators are making a quick BTC. No reliable member has posted to start a ponzi. That should be pretty telling.

Is it possible to move these topics to another child board? Maybe "Ponzis" or "Scammy business ideas" Or even to "Games and rounds" under gambling. Anything to get rid of this clutter.

[1715616143]

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[hilariousandco]

These ponzi posts and threads are entirely overwhelming the gambling board. I understand that people need to make their own decision when "investing" and that ponzis are identified as a gamble but it's beyond that.  There is a reason 3/4 of that board is filled up with PONZI PONZI PONZI. These operators are making a quick BTC. No reliable member has posted to start a ponzi. That should be pretty telling.

Is it possible to move these topics to another child board? Maybe "Ponzis" or "Scammy business ideas" Or even to "Games and rounds" under gambling. Anything to get rid of this clutter.

I doubt any reliable member would. They wouldn't be very reliable for long when the ponzi collapses  .

[koshgel]

These ponzi posts and threads are entirely overwhelming the gambling board. I understand that people need to make their own decision when "investing" and that ponzis are identified as a gamble but it's beyond that.  There is a reason 3/4 of that board is filled up with PONZI PONZI PONZI. These operators are making a quick BTC. No reliable member has posted to start a ponzi. That should be pretty telling.

Is it possible to move these topics to another child board? Maybe "Ponzis" or "Scammy business ideas" Or even to "Games and rounds" under gambling. Anything to get rid of this clutter.

I doubt any reliable member would. They wouldn't be very reliable for long when the ponzi collapses  .

For that reason I feel it's beyond a gamble to an open scam. Isolate the ponzi posts to a dead board so they die too.

[hilariousandco]

These ponzi posts and threads are entirely overwhelming the gambling board. I understand that people need to make their own decision when "investing" and that ponzis are identified as a gamble but it's beyond that.  There is a reason 3/4 of that board is filled up with PONZI PONZI PONZI. These operators are making a quick BTC. No reliable member has posted to start a ponzi. That should be pretty telling.

Is it possible to move these topics to another child board? Maybe "Ponzis" or "Scammy business ideas" Or even to "Games and rounds" under gambling. Anything to get rid of this clutter.

I doubt any reliable member would. They wouldn't be very reliable for long when the ponzi collapses  .

For that reason I feel it's beyond a gamble to an open scam. Isolate the ponzi posts to a dead board so they die too.

Most of them are probably scams, but the forum doesn't really get involved with scams any way. I agree there should be a ponzi/pyramid section if they're to stay though as it's getting out of hand and putting them in their own section with a warning will at least tidy the gambling section up and keep the majority of newbies away from them.

[roslinpl]

Yes yes... Ponzis are making me nervous too..

I dunno why it is so hard to get rid of them.

But perhaps not all of us think that ponzis are bad - because many of users deposit their money into those charities

[koshgel]

Looks like this complaint is falling on deaf ears. The amount of complicity for scamming on this forum is incredible.

[hilariousandco]

Looks like this complaint is falling on deaf ears. The amount of complicity for scamming on this forum is incredible.

Read pretty much every other thread in meta. 99% of the time suggestions are not acted on even if the majority of people agree.

[boumalo]

I lost more than 1BTC playing these fu.cking ponzis

Now I need to buy back my BTC

[roslinpl]

I lost more than 1BTC playing these fu.cking ponzis

Now I need to buy back my BTC

I hope people will get a lesson from your experience with ponzi.

Even name of this game seems like something crazy. Just say ponzi and the way how it sounds makes me feel sick.

[boumalo]

I lost more than 1BTC playing these fu.cking ponzis

Now I need to buy back my BTC

I hope people will get a lesson from your experience with ponzi.

Even name of this game seems like something crazy. Just say ponzi and the way how it sounds makes me feel sick.

Now it does for me too

I need to get into my savings to buy more BTC and to work hard to get it back

[roslinpl]

I lost more than 1BTC playing these fu.cking ponzis

Now I need to buy back my BTC

I hope people will get a lesson from your experience with ponzi.

Even name of this game seems like something crazy. Just say ponzi and the way how it sounds makes me feel sick.

Now it does for me too

I need to get into my savings to buy more BTC and to work hard to get it back

:]

No more ponzis for those gents.

Lesson learned.
Don't do it again.

If you want to gamble your money - legit casinos only or sports bets.
Not PONZI.

[hilariousandco]

I lost more than 1BTC playing these fu.cking ponzis

Now I need to buy back my BTC

I hope people will get a lesson from your experience with ponzi.

Even name of this game seems like something crazy. Just say ponzi and the way how it sounds makes me feel sick.

Some people just need to learn the hardway.

[roslinpl]

I lost more than 1BTC playing these fu.cking ponzis

Now I need to buy back my BTC

I hope people will get a lesson from your experience with ponzi.

Even name of this game seems like something crazy. Just say ponzi and the way how it sounds makes me feel sick.

Some people just need to learn the hardway.

Yep and this method perhaps is the best (I mean most working), but sometimes ward way might become too hard...

:]

[boumalo]

I lost more than 1BTC playing these fu.cking ponzis

Now I need to buy back my BTC

I hope people will get a lesson from your experience with ponzi.

Even name of this game seems like something crazy. Just say ponzi and the way how it sounds makes me feel sick.

Now it does for me too

I need to get into my savings to buy more BTC and to work hard to get it back

:]

No more ponzis for those gents.

Lesson learned.
Don't do it again.

If you want to gamble your money - legit casinos only or sports bets.
Not PONZI.

I don't think casino is a great way not to lose your money

I don't like ponzis because it is gambling but there are some skills which means that you loose faster when you are bad like I was + you can get sc.ammed

[roslinpl]

I wrote "If you wanna gamble your money" - casino is best way.

Gamle = you can win/ or lose

[koshgel]

Looks like this complaint is falling on deaf ears. The amount of complicity for scamming on this forum is incredible.

99% of the time suggestions are not acted on even if the majority of people agree.

That's a serious forum issue in my opinion.

[roslinpl]

Looks like this complaint is falling on deaf ears. The amount of complicity for scamming on this forum is incredible.

99% of the time suggestions are not acted on even if the majority of people agree.

That's a serious forum issue in my opinion.

I think best way to stop it is just to let people decide do they want to play or not.
And as I can see a lot of ppls play ponzis. So ... maybe jusy we don't get it .

[Frankie]

Honest ponzi schemes don't strike me as particularly evil. I don't know why people would want to play musical chairs where the operator gets most of the profit for no real contribution, but knock yourself out. It is like casino gambling in that the house always wins. I see a case for a subforum to distinguish it from spamming up "real" gambling, but it doesn't intrinsically bother me much.

Compare that to the many dishonest de facto ponzi schemes I see advertised here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0

[surfer43]

Compare that to the many dishonest de facto ponzi schemes I see advertised here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0

You forgot the one you see here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=1.0

I do not agree with this logic, I'm simply extending it.

[theymos]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

[Vod]

Looks like this complaint is falling on deaf ears. The amount of complicity for scamming on this forum is incredible.

I spend a bit of time on these forums fighting scams, and there are others that spend way more time than me.

I don't bother with the ponzis because they are so obvious.  I would rather spend my limited time exposing the scams that are more tricky, complex or misleading.

If a person is going to be scammed with something so obvious, maybe they need to learn the hard way?   

[DeadwoodDan]

Honestly, if people are dumb enough to willingly join a Ponzi scheme thinking they'll somehow outwit it, or invest in a bitcoin IPO thinking they'll make millions, or send real money to a bitcoin exchange, let them.  People should learn what Bitcoin is, and losing all your savings in a Ponzi or bitcoin stock or a bitcoin exchange is a good lesson.

[singula]

I guess just words - if you present Ponzi as a game (while properly explaining its mechanism and informing that you can lose) and not as investment.

In the same manner you can present for example a bet also as an investment (you earn 100% of your money in only a day. Ok, team B must win .... but hey, 100%! Err ... good investment!)

Or if you sell some item, only words can then distinguish between honest sale (item with honest description) and scam (item performing much worse than what was promised, etc ....)

So ... words, words and words .... that is IMHO the borderline between game and scam for Ponzis.

[surfer43]

Where you'll see scamming most often:

when the service takes 1 hour to start up.
when the service will receive revenue hours after starting.
when there is no repercussion for stealing all the money (the service can be restarted easily)

So, 90% of the time at minimum this will be a scam.

Where you'll see scamming less often:

when the service takes a longer time to gain users.
when the service will not receive much revenue until it is trusted.
when the service looses users and therefore revenue after scamming people;

The former is Ponzi, the latter is general gambling websites.

[DeadwoodDan]

Where you'll see scamming most often:

when the service takes 1 hour to start up.
when the service will receive revenue hours after starting.
when there is no repercussion for stealing all the money (the service can be restarted easily)

So, 90% of the time at minimum this will be a scam.

Where you'll see scamming less often:

when the service takes a longer time to gain users.
when the service will not receive much revenue until it is trusted.
when the service looses users and therefore revenue after scamming people;

The former is Ponzi, the latter is general gambling websites.

OKAY SURFER THANKS FOR THIS CLASSIFICATION also how in the hell did you arrive at 90% up there can you share your data pls

[surfer43]

also how in the hell did you arrive at 90% up there can you share your data pls

Code:

srand(time(NULL));
int r = rand() % 101;

[Frankie]

Compare that to the many dishonest de facto ponzi schemes I see advertised here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0

You forgot the one you see here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=1.0

I do not agree with this logic, I'm simply extending it.

Satoshi's such a scammer! Oh wait, no.

Do you deny that the subforum is filled with altcoins with little innovation, hyped in IPOs, given largely to insiders at launched, eventually pumped and cynically dumped? How is that sort of behavior less "cancerous" than a Ponzi scheme correctly labelled as a Ponzi scheme, posted in the basically-appropriate gambling forum?

[Bit_Happy]

Frankie has a good point about most new alt's being really bad.

....
Satoshi's such a scammer! Oh wait, no.

Do you deny that the subforum is filled with altcoins with little innovation, hyped in IPOs, given largely to insiders at launched, eventually pumped and cynically dumped? How is that sort of behavior less "cancerous" than a Ponzi scheme correctly labelled as a Ponzi scheme, posted in the basically-appropriate gambling forum?

Also BTC ponzi's are illegal (in the USA/Texas)

[koshgel]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Ponzi is a pyramid scheme. Also, these operators create outlandish rules where if you don't deposit in certain time frames, you don't get any BTC back. That's not gambling. That's stealing.

At least with other forms of gambling, the system is "provably fair" to an extent.

[MrPiggles]

This whole forum is bizarre.

It is, at first appearance, seemingly populated with somewhat intelligent, tech savvy people.

But when you actually look closer you realise it's mostly mongs, who've heard bitcoin is the best get rick quick scheme in existence, and are happily throwing bitcoin after bitcoin into schemes to get rich quick.

I actually wouldn't be surprised to hear one small team of people is behind all the ponzis, scam mining sites and vaporware companies.

Post in some Ponzi threads, and people will argue vehemently that X firm really is investing the 0.01 ($5.50) bitcoin they gave them, and isn't just a ponzi because - they have a slick website

[surfer43]

Compare that to the many dishonest de facto ponzi schemes I see advertised here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=159.0

You forgot the one you see here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=1.0

I do not agree with this logic, I'm simply extending it.

Satoshi's such a scammer! Oh wait, no.

Do you deny that the subforum is filled with altcoins with little innovation, hyped in IPOs, given largely to insiders at launched, eventually pumped and cynically dumped? How is that sort of behavior less "cancerous" than a Ponzi scheme correctly labelled as a Ponzi scheme, posted in the basically-appropriate gambling forum?

No.

[surfer43]

Frankie has a good point about most new alt's being really bad.

....
Satoshi's such a scammer! Oh wait, no.

Do you deny that the subforum is filled with altcoins with little innovation, hyped in IPOs, given largely to insiders at launched, eventually pumped and cynically dumped? How is that sort of behavior less "cancerous" than a Ponzi scheme correctly labelled as a Ponzi scheme, posted in the basically-appropriate gambling forum?

Also BTC ponzi's are illegal (in the USA/Texas)

The IC3 doesn't care about it. I let them know a month ago and... nothing  
I think its only illegal if it is a hidden ponzi, e.g. it is promoted as an "investment". I may be wrong...

[roslinpl]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

There is one thing that did it.

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

[boumalo]

I have a suggestion : create a Ponzi section and not allow newbies to create a post in this section, it will mean that only bitcointalk members that have been here for a while can post and create a new ponzi, that will avoid a lot of chea.p scams

Ponzis are a gambling game, I don't think they are way more evil than regular gambling if the owner is not luring people into thinking it is an investment and if he is not running away with the money.

[roslinpl]

I have a suggestion : create a Ponzi section and not allow newbies to create a post in this section, it will mean that only bitcointalk members that have been here for a while can post and create a new ponzi, that will avoid a lot of chea.p scams

Ponzis are a gambling game, I don't think they are way more evil than regular gambling if the owner is not luring people into thinking it is an investment and if he is not running away with the money.

If ponzi section will be created and newbies and jr members will be not allowd to post there then there are going to be no ponzi at all.
99, 9% of ponzi threads are  posted by users with activity <10.
:-)

[koshgel]

I have a suggestion : create a Ponzi section and not allow newbies to create a post in this section, it will mean that only bitcointalk members that have been here for a while can post and create a new ponzi, that will avoid a lot of chea.p scams

Ponzis are a gambling game, I don't think they are way more evil than regular gambling if the owner is not luring people into thinking it is an investment and if he is not running away with the money.

This solution would wipe ponzi. It's only invested and promoted by brand new accounts to make it seem popular.

[roslinpl]

I have a suggestion : create a Ponzi section and not allow newbies to create a post in this section, it will mean that only bitcointalk members that have been here for a while can post and create a new ponzi, that will avoid a lot of chea.p scams

Ponzis are a gambling game, I don't think they are way more evil than regular gambling if the owner is not luring people into thinking it is an investment and if he is not running away with the money.

This solution would wipe ponzi. It's only invested and promoted by brand new accounts to make it seem popular.

Yes fhats what I was sayin before.

I think if people want to play ponzi let them play :-) so I think create ponzi section and then let people choose do they want to play or not..

[boumalo]

I have a suggestion : create a Ponzi section and not allow newbies to create a post in this section, it will mean that only bitcointalk members that have been here for a while can post and create a new ponzi, that will avoid a lot of chea.p scams

Ponzis are a gambling game, I don't think they are way more evil than regular gambling if the owner is not luring people into thinking it is an investment and if he is not running away with the money.

If ponzi section will be created and newbies and jr members will be not allowd to post there then there are going to be no ponzi at all.
99, 9% of ponzi threads are  posted by users with activity <10.
:-)

There has been 1-3 ponzis that have been created by members, they didn't sc.am

Some of the ponzi owners will eventually get to the Jr status if they are dedicated, I am thinking about ponzicoin, ponzi120 and ponzimatic so it will just eliminate most the sc.ams and a lot of uninteresting ponzis

[NLNico]

I have a suggestion : create a Ponzi section and not allow newbies to create a post in this section, it will mean that only bitcointalk members that have been here for a while can post and create a new ponzi, that will avoid a lot of chea.p scams

Ponzis are a gambling game, I don't think they are way more evil than regular gambling if the owner is not luring people into thinking it is an investment and if he is not running away with the money.

There are many legit sites who like to start a topic with an official casino account. Not sure if this is the best solution. But I agree there must be something done against these sketchy ponzis. Just way too many of them.

edit: I just read that the "newbies restriction" would be on that new ponzi section only. That is a good idea. I thought it was about the gambling section, sorry

[roslinpl]

I have a suggestion : create a Ponzi section and not allow newbies to create a post in this section, it will mean that only bitcointalk members that have been here for a while can post and create a new ponzi, that will avoid a lot of chea.p scams

Ponzis are a gambling game, I don't think they are way more evil than regular gambling if the owner is not luring people into thinking it is an investment and if he is not running away with the money.

There are many legit sites who like to start a topic with an official casino account. Not sure if this is the best solution. But I agree there must be something done against these sketchy ponzis. Just way too many of them.

Way to many is to little to say :-)

95% of poniz are scam.

What I suggest is : ponzi section.
Just to stop this ponzi mess..

It will not stop scammers but perhpaps this part is harder to do.

[Vod]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

[boumalo]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

Then you could say that all casino games are sc.am as well, what is your definition of a sc.am??

If the ponzi owner doesn't run away with the money and if he doesn't advertise the ponzi as a safe investment it looks like a gambling game to me

[Vod]

Then you could say that all casino games are sc.am as well, what is your definition of a sc.am??

If the ponzi owner doesn't run away with the money and if he doesn't advertise the ponzi as a safe investment it looks like a gambling game to me

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

With a ponzi, someone is guaranteed to be ripped off, even if there is only one person!  As soon as the first person has deposited, the ponzi can no longer pay everything that is owed, and requires new deposits to pay old debts.

[Vortuarackne]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

This.

I have been running a ponzi site for more than a week now, we are currently on to round #3. Players understand and appreciate that when deposits dry up, a new round is started meaning those who have deposited towards the end of the previous round lose. That's the nature of a ponzi.

I think the term ponzi is probably misleading though as "ponzi" suggests deception. There is no deception involved here, players are aware of what they are gambling on, and they take that risk. For some, the rewards are bigger than playing in a casino, for others they lose their entire deposit. That's the risk they take.

The problem comes when "newbies" (which I still class myself as) come in trying to "get rich quick". They make a few payouts, but more often than not eventually disappear with the majority of deposits. This is what needs clamping down on, and this is not unique to ponzis.

Perhaps a restriction on starting a thread in the gambling section? You must be a full member or similar to try cut down on new users instantly advertising their site?

[roslinpl]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?  

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts.  

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

I said 95% because I dont want to say 100% because I cannot be sure is it really 100%.
Perhaps it is.

This are reasons why I dislike ponzis

[koshgel]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

I said 95% because I dont want to say 100% because I cannot be sure is it really 100%.
Perhaps it is.

This are reasons why I dislije ponzis

100% are scams because of the setup. How would it be logical to permanently receive more money than put in?

This is the same as the first law of thermodynamics. You can't get more work out of something than you put in a closed system.

The pyramid of "investors" keeps stacking until the latest "investors" can no longer be paid out and the pyramid collapses crushing any chumps that thought they could make a quick buck.

This isn't gambling. This is stealing by preying on greed.

[theymos]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

[Vortuarackne]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

I think this is the crux of it all. Are these "games" which are labelled as ponzis, actually ponzis? They use the same "business model" as ponzis, however beneath it all true Ponzis are scams; fraudulent and deceptive.

How can something which clearly defines its purpose, be either fraudulent or deceptive?

Bias-ly, I honest believe, certainly what PonziCoin is offering, to be another form of gambling. Perhaps it doesn’t belong in the main gambling section, perhaps it's not a "gamble" everyone would like to participate in, but it is by no means a "scam".

[koshgel]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

I think this is the crux of it all. Are these "games" which are labelled as ponzis, actually ponzis? They use the same "business model" as ponzis, however beneath it all true Ponzis are scams; fraudulent and deceptive.

How can something which clearly defines its purpose, be either fraudulent or deceptive?

Bias-ly, I honest believe, certainly what PonziCoin is offering, to be another form of gambling. Perhaps it doesn’t belong in the main gambling section, perhaps it's not a "gamble" everyone would like to participate in, but it is by no means a "scam".

Yes of course you're biased since you're a sleazy ponzi operator.

[koshgel]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

You aren't playing poker against the house. There is no house edge. Only a rake. You can't make the same comparison to traditional casino games.

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

At least create a subforum for pyramid schemes.

[malevolent]

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

There is a difference between deceiving people and offering all sorts of "investments" which turn out to be ponzis, and inviting people to gamble money into something that calls itself a ponzi, where the rules are known upfront.

[koshgel]

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

There is a difference between deceiving people and offering all sorts of "investments" which turn out to be ponzis, and inviting people to gamble money into something that calls itself a ponzi, where the rules are known upfront.

Are you being serious? It's like this forum and staff want to be help perpetuate the notion that bitcoin is only for drugs, gambling and money laundering.

I'm done trying to help out and be honest. Go to town fucking each other.

[Frankie]

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

There is a difference between deceiving people and offering all sorts of "investments" which turn out to be ponzis, and inviting people to gamble money into something that calls itself a ponzi, where the rules are known upfront.

That's the key difference.

When it's calling itself a ponzi, you know that the operator will win in the end--there's no deception in it--not unlike other forms of gambling, really. The only thing that really distinguishes it is that unlike casino banking games, players have an incentive to recruit more suckers so that they aren't holding the bag in the end. Kind of like a stupid form of poker, I guess, where the house rake is huge.

To each his own though.

[surfer43]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

Hmm... that begs the question: Is something called "Scam" a scam?
I don't think so.
Think of it as a donation.

[Vortuarackne]

Ponzi owners say to users that is "120%" "LEGIT" "STABLE" and other shit. They do not say - you MIGHT lost lost your money.

When you place a bet @casino - you know what you are doing and you know before you place a bet that you can be a looser or a winner

that is main different between Ponzi and other gambling projects.

PonziCoin says "So, I could lose all my investment? -> Yes, that is the gamble you take when playing Ponzi games," and, "you should never deposit more than you can risk losing." Does this make PonziCoin not a ponzi?

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Are you serious?  Casino games can be provably fair.  You don't go in expecting to win.  It's a chance.

If you're good at poker, you might go into a poker game expecting to win in a high percentage of games. Similarly, people skilled at playing Ponzis might expect to win often enough to get ahead. In both cases, newbies are very likely to lose a lot.

I think that it might actually be possible to make a Ponzi game trustless using advanced Bitcoin features like LockTime.

You aren't playing poker against the house. There is no house edge. Only a rake. You can't make the same comparison to traditional casino games.

There is a reason Ponzi are criminal. Why else would Bernie Madoff gone to prison? Is it no longer a game when it involves millions of dollars?

The reality is there are no set odds to the "game" of Ponzi because it is stacked against you from the start to only benefit the operator. If you fail to see this, I really cannot explain it any other way.

At least create a subforum for pyramid schemes.

Definition of 'Ponzi Scheme'

A fraudulent investing scam promising high rates of return with little risk to investors. The Ponzi scheme generates returns for older investors by acquiring new investors. This scam actually yields the promised returns to earlier investors, as long as there are more new investors. These schemes usually collapse on themselves when the new investments stop.

Is a ponzi actually a ponzi when its labelled as a ponzi?

No promises are being made. Players gamble their coins at their own risk. Early players win, later players lose. Genuine operators take their cut, but as do any other business owners.

A line needs drawing between Ponzi operators who are honest - in it to make BTCBTCBTC through charging fees, and those who are in it to lure naive players and running off with all the coins.

People who refute there are honest Ponzi operators out there need to take a long hard look at their selves and put their own opinions of the game to one side.

I will use PonziCoin as an example as that is the only ponzi I can categorically say is "honest" - and that is because I run it! You can see from the site and the sheer fact it is now fully automated, I have put many hours into developing the site - my partner may say too many! I've invested my hours into this to ensure I have a stable system which I don’t have to hand hold every day, I don’t have players coming to me because their deposit has been missed, or a payout has been missed - it just works. To me, that isn’t the sign of someone, or something which is in it to make a "quick buck" and such sites are getting a bad name purely because some people here deem all of these "games" scams (Scam: a dishonest scheme; a fraud.).

I do however 100% agree there needs to be some filtering\restriction of threads being opened in the gambling sections. Too many players appear to have been conned by new Ponzis (and other games) opening up, which is affecting the draw to the entire gambling community.

[roslinpl]

95% of poniz are scam.

You think 5% of ponzis are not scams?   

All ponzis are scams.  New money to pay old debts. 

A lot of ponzis also happen on btcjam daily.

Hmm... that begs the question: Is something called "Scam" a scam?
I don't think so.
Think of it as a donation.

or like a charity I called it charity from a while hehe

[NLNico]

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Besides the "scam yes or no" discussion I think that this is the situation.

There are like 7 "anti ponzi - pls make own forum" topics already and many people agree with that. I can quote them if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious for anyone who is active in the gambling forum.

I do think there is a market for ponzis but "traditional gambling" and ponzi seem 2 completely different target groups to me. Also sometimes the first page of the gambling forum is covered by more than 50% ponzi so there are also enough topics to fill an own forum too.

I think the line is very clear. At this point sub forum could be called "Ponzi/HYIP Gambling" and all topics that include "ponzi" in the title could be moved to there already. Anything with "invest and get 120% unless you are the last" = ponzi, can be moved there. At this point it's that simple IMO.

[roslinpl]

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Besides the "scam yes or no" discussion I think that this is the situation.

There are like 7 "anti ponzi - pls make own forum" topics already and many people agree with that. I can quote them if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious for anyone who is active in the gambling forum.

I do think there is a market for ponzis but "traditional gambling" and ponzi seem 2 completely different target groups to me. Also sometimes the first page of the gambling forum is covered by more than 50% ponzi so there are also enough topics to fill an own forum too.

I think the line is very clear. At this point sub forum could be called "Ponzi/HYIP Gambling" and all topics that include "ponzi" in the title could be moved to there already. Anything with "invest and get 120% unless you are the last" = ponzi, can be moved there. At this point it's that simple IMO.

I think ponzi section will be never done.
And ponzis will be around untill world end.

I am not very happy with that.
But seems like people who play ponzi like ponzi

so maybe like I say, we are just overreacting

[surfer43]

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Besides the "scam yes or no" discussion I think that this is the situation.

There are like 7 "anti ponzi - pls make own forum" topics already and many people agree with that. I can quote them if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious for anyone who is active in the gambling forum.

I do think there is a market for ponzis but "traditional gambling" and ponzi seem 2 completely different target groups to me. Also sometimes the first page of the gambling forum is covered by more than 50% ponzi so there are also enough topics to fill an own forum too.

I think the line is very clear. At this point sub forum could be called "Ponzi/HYIP Gambling" and all topics that include "ponzi" in the title could be moved to there already. Anything with "invest and get 120% unless you are the last" = ponzi, can be moved there. At this point it's that simple IMO.

I think ponzi section will be never done.
And ponzis will be around untill world end.

no. ponzi == fad

[Vortuarackne]

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

Besides the "scam yes or no" discussion I think that this is the situation.

There are like 7 "anti ponzi - pls make own forum" topics already and many people agree with that. I can quote them if you want, but I think it's pretty obvious for anyone who is active in the gambling forum.

I do think there is a market for ponzis but "traditional gambling" and ponzi seem 2 completely different target groups to me. Also sometimes the first page of the gambling forum is covered by more than 50% ponzi so there are also enough topics to fill an own forum too.

I think the line is very clear. At this point sub forum could be called "Ponzi/HYIP Gambling" and all topics that include "ponzi" in the title could be moved to there already. Anything with "invest and get 120% unless you are the last" = ponzi, can be moved there. At this point it's that simple IMO.

I think ponzi section will be never done.
And ponzis will be around untill world end.

no. ponzi == fad

I agree with this, I have seen each round gradually decrease in both value and # of transactions.

[apsvinet]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Not anything really I suppose when you look at it, but it's still a big enough part of the forums to have it's own sub forum imo, even if it's within the same category. It would make it easier to navigate and find what you're looking for, for sure.

[apsvinet]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Ponzi is a pyramid scheme. Also, these operators create outlandish rules where if you don't deposit in certain time frames, you don't get any BTC back. That's not gambling. That's stealing.

At least with other forms of gambling, the system is "provably fair" to an extent.

I suppose technically it's gambling. You deposit a sum of money that you might either lose (no more investors, or owner runs off with your money) or win, and gain a profit relative to the amount deposited.

[roslinpl]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Ponzi is a pyramid scheme. Also, these operators create outlandish rules where if you don't deposit in certain time frames, you don't get any BTC back. That's not gambling. That's stealing.

At least with other forms of gambling, the system is "provably fair" to an extent.

I suppose technically it's gambling. You deposit a sum of money that you might either lose (no more investors, or owner runs off with your money) or win, and gain a profit relative to the amount deposited.

Let them be whatever they are.
 

I dont care about them any more.


Regards.

[MrPiggles]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

[Vortuarackne]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

How exactly does a mining Ponzi work?

[MrPiggles]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

How exactly does a mining Ponzi work?

You send them 1 bitcoin.

They pay you 0.08 a week, you think holy shit what a return! 8% weekly!

You tell everyone on bitcointalk you're making great returns.

After 4 weeks loads more people have invested.

You've made 0.32 bitcoins in 4 weeks (you're actually still down 0.68btc) and are busily referring people to the mining ponzi.

After however long - mining ponzi operator runs off with all the funds.

Exactly the same as any other ponzi, except instead of "high yield investment programs" or "crowd funding IT startups" they're "mining"

it's kind of obvious when the "mining" company won't even provide a pic of a single miner or prove they've ever generated a single coin

[roslinpl]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

I don't get it? Mining ponzis? Please post more details about this.

[MrPiggles]

Read the post above yours Roslinpl I explained it quite clearly.

[b!z]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

I don't get it? Mining ponzis? Please post more details about this.

Ponzis that claim to use investor money to buy hardware and make 150% daily. They don't actually mine.

[jayc89]

I've been playing PonziCoin (both the full one and Mini) from the start and whilst there has been a few bugs in the code, Vort (the owner) is still a "Newbie" yet he has been straight up and honest with everyone. He admits when there is a problem and works his nuts off to fix it. Overall he has processed more than 200BTC yet I still hear people say "they are just waiting for the big one" - how big does it need to be??

I understand playing a ponzi isnt to everyone's taste - but personally, providing they are sold "as a ponzi" and not trying to offer guaranteed returns etc, I just see it as normal gambling.

Have you guys ever checked these, more successful, ponzis out? They dont "collapse" they run in rounds, which players accept. When the funds dry up a new round starts. If those are the rules, and they are made clear at the very start, then surely it is up to the players to decide whether that's a gamble they want to take?

I think the REAL problem is allowing new forum accounts to post in the gambling section - I'm sure 90% of the Ponzi threads are indeed scammers looking to make a quick BTCBTCBTC

[elbill]

We need a ponzi subforum. Is simple.

[MrPiggles]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

I don't get it? Mining ponzis? Please post more details about this.

Ponzis that claim to use investor money to buy hardware and make 150% daily. They don't actually mine.

Thank fuck for that, thought I was the only person on this entire forum who could see the obvious

[Rampion]

what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Gambles have provably fair rules.

Ponzis are scams in which, by design, the author can pull the plug whenever he sees fit.

In the best interest of young people and/or newcomers who might not understand this I would add a new subforum called "HYIP/Ponzi/scams", or directly "Scams".

[Silverspoon]

Catnip for the press...

[apsvinet]

what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Gambles have provably fair rules.

Ponzis are scams in which, by design, the author can pull the plug whenever he sees fit.

In the best interest of young people and/or newcomers who might not understand this I would add a new subforum called "HYIP/Ponzi/scams", or directly "Scams".

On the other hand you can never guarantee 100% of the gambling
sites out there are provably fair by any means, not even 10% of
them. Besides they can also refuse withdrawals  whenever they see fit.

[Frankie]

Gambles have provably fair rules.

Ponzis are scams in which, by design, the author can pull the plug whenever he sees fit.

In the best interest of young people and/or newcomers who might not understand this I would add a new subforum called "HYIP/Ponzi/scams", or directly "Scams".

On the other hand you can never guarantee 100% of the gambling
sites out there are provably fair by any means, not even 10% of
them. Besides they can also refuse withdrawals  whenever they see fit.

Even if they could make all their transactions transparent to confirm overall rates of return, and even if they allow all withdrawals, winnings could unfairly diverted to shill accounts they control. Say they have a 99.5% EV and can "prove" that they do on the block chain. That's great! But there's no way for a gambler to know that "real" users don't actually have a 90% EV while shill accounts cart away the extra profits. The only way to tell is to play over a long enough period of time that your own low rates of return diverge with statistical significance from the advertise EV. For a game with large variance, proving such a scam would be costly.

This is a problem in real casinos, but it's much more pronounced with Bitcoin where all you need to make another shill account is a couple of prime numbers.

So I don't really know what Rampion means by "provably fair rules." If he means rules that are understood by all players in advance, things like PonziCoin seem to fit the bill. If he means rules that are provably enforced by the operator fairly against players--there seem to be FAR fewer such services than there are gambling sites.

[apsvinet]

Gambles have provably fair rules.

Ponzis are scams in which, by design, the author can pull the plug whenever he sees fit.

In the best interest of young people and/or newcomers who might not understand this I would add a new subforum called "HYIP/Ponzi/scams", or directly "Scams".

On the other hand you can never guarantee 100% of the gambling
sites out there are provably fair by any means, not even 10% of
them. Besides they can also refuse withdrawals  whenever they see fit.

Even if they could make all their transactions transparent to confirm overall rates of return, and even if they allow all withdrawals, winnings could unfairly diverted to shill accounts they control. Say they have a 99.5% EV and can "prove" that they do on the block chain. That's great! But there's no way for a gambler to know that "real" users don't actually have a 90% EV while shill accounts cart away the extra profits. The only way to tell is to play over a long enough period of time that your own low rates of return diverge with statistical significance from the advertise EV. For a game with large variance, proving such a scam would be costly.

This is a problem in real casinos, but it's much more pronounced with Bitcoin where all you need to make another shill account is a couple of prime numbers.

So I don't really know what Rampion means by "provably fair rules." If he means rules that are understood by all players in advance, things like PonziCoin seem to fit the bill. If he means rules that are provably enforced by the operator fairly against players--there seem to be FAR fewer such services than there are gambling sites.

Basically most people see a sign on a website that says "This is provably fair" with some explanation to it that 99% of the users don't have the knowledge about the subject to be able to tell if it's actually true or just complete rubbish. In the end there's no guarantee, and therefore it's called gambling.
If someone told you to throw 100 dollars in the ocean, and that there was a 50% chance he'd give you 150 dollars for doing so, it's a gamble. You risk your money in exchange for a % chance of getting it back with a profit. Is it a tax on stupid people? Perhaps, but it's
a profit-risk calculation everyone has to do on their own. You can't just blindly trust websites that claim they're "provably fair".

[roslinpl]

I am thinking - I don't understand people who play ponzi.

If you want to gable - play @ Ca$ino.
It's legit
It's provable
And 140% is nothing if you are lucky you can get 600% or 6000%

Anyway - It seems like a bit less Ponzis around from few days.

♥♦♣♠

[FalconFly]

IMHO stupid people will always do stupid things... and there's a whole industry to capitalize on exactly that.
Rigged gambling sites (they all are), rigged lotteries, ponzies and all the other junk that's out there. Provably fair is just smoke and mirrors, they are all rigged to make profits off the fools, that's their only business.

When people send money into a site that advertises as "The trusted Ponzi !" *lol* then there's no hope for these fools. Let them play, let them fail. They'll never learn anyway, this is beyond their capabilties...
Stupid may occasionally run out of money - but he'll never run out of stupid.

[apsvinet]

IMHO stupid people will always do stupid things... and there's a whole industry to capitalize on exactly that.

When people send money into a site that advertises as "The trusted Ponzi !" *lol* then there's no hope for these fools. Let them play, let them fail. They'll never learn anyway, this is beyond their capabilties...
Stupid may occasionally run out of money - but he'll never run out of stupid.

This is quite accurate. The only people I see complaining about ponzis are those who have been foolish enough to invest in them.

[NLNico]

Looks like the "legit" ponzi that had an advertisement running here stole all the money.

What a surprise. Ponzi turns out to be a Ponzi scheme.

Seriously, can we have a subforum already? Just call it "Ponzi, HYIP and other scams for greedy idiots"


And no apsvinet, never gave a single satoshi to any ponzi scheme. But I do like to follow Gambling threads and it's a bit annoying with all these ponzi shit. (and no I don't really gamble even, mostly poker which is EV+ for me :>)

[TheEmperor]

If there are many people who like traditional gambling games and not Ponzis, then a category should probably be created, but I'm not sure where the line would be drawn between Ponzis and other games. Maybe traditional games must be based 100% on chance? But that'd eliminate many other games as well.

I'm thinking anything with ponzi in the name is a good place to start.

[Vortuarackne]

I'm the owner of PonziCoin - the server was subjected to an attempted injection attack last night whereby someone was able to send HTTP requests to a number of my backend scripts which control payouts, new rounds etc etc. As I have Fail2Ban configured to scan for such suspicious activity (pretty much any HTTP request sending arguments), the server essentially shuts down any none core operations (e.g. cron is stopped as too are any ad-hoc processes) to protect its assets, in this case the BitCoin wallets.

As soon as I was made aware of the problems I responded by instantly making a full refund to the players and posting here.

Sure it would have been an easy 10+BTC but I have been fighting tooth and nail over the past few weeks defending sites such as my own, as not all ponzi-type games are scams, and that is something I strongly believe in.

I can only apologise to the players affected, some of which appear to have shit a brick in the process!

[NLNico]

Well it's good to hear that you refunded them. Sorry for your loss and for saying "stole all the money" ... it kinda looked like that.

Still I think a sub forum for Ponzi/HYIP is appropriate as I explained in my previous post on the previous page.

Also > "every" bitcoin site should have bug bounty program, see my signature

[roslinpl]

Well there are so many ponzis right now that it cannot be stopped because people play it.


You should not be angry about them anymore.

Just walk away from ponzi and forget it

[NLNico]

I'm not sure if you are talking to me. But I do not really care about people who play ponzis and I never had or will play them. I don't really think that "they need to be stopped".

It's just that ponzi-players and "traditional gamblers" seem 2 different target groups to me. And -because- there are so many ponzi topics they "deserve" to have an own subforum.

[boumalo]

Ponzi is gambling but it is a gambling game with skills

It can be quite deceptive and some players probably don't understand how it works especially when it is not advertised as a ponzi but when the owner is not sc.amming and when it is advertise as a ponzi with disclaimers it is a gambling game with skills

The biggest problem with ponzis on bitcointalk is that some owners ran away with the money, creating a ponzi sub section in the gambling forum and only allowing members, full m, senior m and hero m to create a new post in this section would eliminate a lot of sc.ams

[zolace]

Ponzi is gambling but it is a gambling game with skills

It can be quite deceptive and some players probably don't understand how it works especially when it is not advertised as a ponzi but when the owner is not sc.amming and when it is advertise as a ponzi with disclaimers it is a gambling game with skills

The biggest problem with ponzis on bitcointalk is that some owners ran away with the money, creating a ponzi sub section in the gambling forum and only allowing members, full m, senior m and hero m to create a new post in this section would eliminate a lot of sc.ams

ponzi is not a real gambling game or it wouldnt need a license to run it.  Ponzi is mostly illegal.  Who ever wants to fight ponzis off this site PM Me.  I found a way to make the Admin listen.

[Vortuarackne]

Ponzi is gambling but it is a gambling game with skills

It can be quite deceptive and some players probably don't understand how it works especially when it is not advertised as a ponzi but when the owner is not sc.amming and when it is advertise as a ponzi with disclaimers it is a gambling game with skills

The biggest problem with ponzis on bitcointalk is that some owners ran away with the money, creating a ponzi sub section in the gambling forum and only allowing members, full m, senior m and hero m to create a new post in this section would eliminate a lot of sc.ams

ponzi is not a real gambling game or it wouldnt need a license to run it.  Ponzi is mostly illegal.  Who ever wants to fight ponzis off this site PM Me.  I found a way to make the Admin listen.

Gambling games based on the ponzi-model. There's a difference.

[Light]

Gambling games based on the ponzi-model. There's a difference.

No there isn't. Your simply trying to make a distinction so you that can stay in the gambling section and keep your mass of idiot newbie users to help line your pockets. Just because you declare something, doesn't make it any more legal or ethical. It's like you declare your doing tax evasion. It doesn't make a difference, it's still illegal.

[Vortuarackne]

Gambling games based on the ponzi-model. There's a difference.

No there isn't. Your simply trying to make a distinction so you that can stay in the gambling section and keep your mass of idiot newbie users to help line your pockets. Just because you declare something, doesn't make it any more legal or ethical. It's like you declare your doing tax evasion. It doesn't make a difference, it's still illegal.

I suggest you first define a ponzi and then define what the majority or sites are offering - do true ponzis label themselves as Ponzis? No. Do true ponzis warn investors they may not get their money back? No Do true ponzis have "rounds" which occur when funds dry up? No.

There is a clear difference.

[Light]

I suggest you first define a ponzi and then define what the majority or sites are offering - do true ponzis label themselves as Ponzis? No. Do true ponzis warn investors they may not get their money back? No Do true ponzis have "rounds" which occur when funds dry up? No.

There is a clear difference.

Defined by Merriam Webster.

Ponzi
- an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks

Your site and many others fit this bill to the tee. Case closed.

[Vortuarackne]

I suggest you first define a ponzi and then define what the majority or sites are offering - do true ponzis label themselves as Ponzis? No. Do true ponzis warn investors they may not get their money back? No Do true ponzis have "rounds" which occur when funds dry up? No.

There is a clear difference.

Defined by Merriam Webster.

Ponzi
- an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks

Your site and many others fit this bill to the tee. Case closed.

Not quite.

1) These are not investment opportunities - at no point are they sold as an investment, at no point are returns guaranteed
2) There is no encouragement for players to arrive late in rounds - the majority are smart enough to wait until the next round in hope of achieving their desired return.

[zolace]

Not other then that how about a few of the newbies that came on here almost the same time you showed up, how we know your not the same early investor?  Ponzi is a dangerous and illegal investment activity.   I think is best we all keep reporting there wesbites to the hosts, lets see how much can they afford to keep opening these games.

[Vortuarackne]

Not other then that how about a few of the newbies that came on here almost the same time you showed up, how we know your not the same early investor?  Ponzi is a dangerous and illegal investment activity.   I think is best we all keep reporting there wesbites to the hosts, lets see how much can they afford to keep opening these games.

You can think what you want of me, I dont particularly care. I am here defending the type of site which I operate. I assume the mods\admin could GeoIP track to determine any users creating multiple accounts (using well known proxies etc). I suspect at least 1 well known ponzi-game was doing this until it all went quite a couple of days ago.

Personally, I have already spoke to my host - they are not blinded by the same tunnel vision as yourself - so feel free to bombard them with your spam.

[Light]

Not quite.

1) These are not investment opportunities - at no point are they sold as an investment, at no point are returns guaranteed
2) There is no encouragement for players to arrive late in rounds - the majority are smart enough to wait until the next round in hope of achieving their desired return.

1. Please understand what an investment is before you try and argue a moot point.

Investment (Merriam-Webster)
- the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

It is irrelevant whether there is a "guarantee" on returns. Try rebadging shares as something else because there is no "guarantee" and you'll get laughed all the way to an asylum.

2. Understand semantics before you argue. "early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage". People are encouraged by the fact that some idiot earlier in the queue is getting paid off with a later guys funds and hence wish to join in too.

[BitOnyx]

Every gambling related event is ponzi that people are aware in some way. It is like lottery. You buy tickets, one person wins all other people money.

[Vortuarackne]

Not quite.

1) These are not investment opportunities - at no point are they sold as an investment, at no point are returns guaranteed
2) There is no encouragement for players to arrive late in rounds - the majority are smart enough to wait until the next round in hope of achieving their desired return.

1. Please understand what an investment is before you try and argue a moot point.

Investment (Merriam-Webster)
- the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

It is irrelevant whether there is a "guarantee" on returns. Try rebadging shares as something else because there is no "guarantee" and you'll get laughed all the way to an asylum.

2. Understand semantics before you argue. "early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage". People are encouraged by the fact that some idiot earlier in the queue is getting paid off with a later guys funds and hence wish to join in too.

Thats for the players to decide though. Someone wins $100,000 on a scratch card so 10 other people go out and buy more scratch cards and don’t win anything. By your definition that is "encouragement". Is it also an investment; the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns?

That must be a scam, ponzi, illegal, immoral too!

I appreciate not everyone likes ponzis, and the majority will never play one. However, using your own definitions, what most sites (certainly my own) is offering, is nothing worse than any other gambling, lottery, bingo site etc.

The risk of losing your coins is the calculated gamble players take.

[hilariousandco]

I suggest you first define a ponzi and then define what the majority or sites are offering - do true ponzis label themselves as Ponzis? No. Do true ponzis warn investors they may not get their money back? No Do true ponzis have "rounds" which occur when funds dry up? No.

There is a clear difference.

Defined by Merriam Webster.

Ponzi
- an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks

Your site and many others fit this bill to the tee. Case closed.

Not quite.

1) These are not investment opportunities - at no point are they sold as an investment, at no point are returns guaranteed

Are you saying this about other Ponzis or yours?

[Vortuarackne]

I suggest you first define a ponzi and then define what the majority or sites are offering - do true ponzis label themselves as Ponzis? No. Do true ponzis warn investors they may not get their money back? No Do true ponzis have "rounds" which occur when funds dry up? No.

There is a clear difference.

Defined by Merriam Webster.

Ponzi
- an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks

Your site and many others fit this bill to the tee. Case closed.

Not quite.

1) These are not investment opportunities - at no point are they sold as an investment, at no point are returns guaranteed

Are you saying this about other Ponzis or yours?

My argument is of course based around my own site, as I cannot, nor would I want to speak for any other operators.

I'm not denying their are scammers starting their own Ponzis for a quick buck, but there are scammers in all walks of life.

[hilariousandco]

I suggest you first define a ponzi and then define what the majority or sites are offering - do true ponzis label themselves as Ponzis? No. Do true ponzis warn investors they may not get their money back? No Do true ponzis have "rounds" which occur when funds dry up? No.

There is a clear difference.

Defined by Merriam Webster.

Ponzi
- an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks

Your site and many others fit this bill to the tee. Case closed.

Not quite.

1) These are not investment opportunities - at no point are they sold as an investment, at no point are returns guaranteed

Are you saying this about other Ponzis or yours?

My argument is of course based around my own site, as I cannot, nor would I want to speak for any other operators.

That's what had me confused because you yourself use the terms 'investment' and 'guaranteed returns':

PonziCoin - The simplest BitCoin Ponzi
Update: As of round #7, the last deposit in every round is guaranteed to be paid out at 200%!!!!


120% Return on Investment

[roslinpl]

I am trying new strategy

On each new thread with Ponzi xxx% I post a question: "What are chances to lose? You say xxx% profit, but I do not see possibilities to lose? So are you making a charity? Or there is a possibility that I will lost my btc @ your game?"


And what I saw - most of ponzi owners ARE RESPONDING and telling that yes - you can lose when no one else will deposit money after you

And I am happy because at least they are not lying

So When you see a new ponzi thread just post there something simmilar "What are chances to lose? You say xxx% profit, but I do not see possibilities to lose? So are you making a charity? Or there is a possibility that I will lost my btc @ your game?"

[Vortuarackne]

I suggest you first define a ponzi and then define what the majority or sites are offering - do true ponzis label themselves as Ponzis? No. Do true ponzis warn investors they may not get their money back? No Do true ponzis have "rounds" which occur when funds dry up? No.

There is a clear difference.

Defined by Merriam Webster.

Ponzi
- an investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks

Your site and many others fit this bill to the tee. Case closed.

Not quite.

1) These are not investment opportunities - at no point are they sold as an investment, at no point are returns guaranteed

Are you saying this about other Ponzis or yours?

My argument is of course based around my own site, as I cannot, nor would I want to speak for any other operators.

That's what had me confused because you yourself use the terms 'investment' and 'guaranteed returns':

PonziCoin - The simplest BitCoin Ponzi
Update: As of round #7, the last deposit in every round is guaranteed to be paid out at 200%!!!!


120% Return on Investment

And that is true, although slightly outdated now.

Fees are taken throughout the round, those fees are used to repay the last deposit at 200% (so somewhat deviating from your stereo-typical ponzi) any remaining fees left over became my taking for that round.

Therefore the last deposit is guaranteed, none in-between are.

Return on investment is a turn of phrase and perhaps not a good one in this case however, as has been pointed out "the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value." whether it is guaranteed or not, the deposits players made could be described as an investment.

[NotLambchop]

... the deposits players made could be described as an investment.

True enough.  Flushing money down the toilet could also be described as an investment.  Props 4 ur mad language skillz.

[MoneyShot2]

Just move ponzis and pyramids to a separate section and that's it. And put some restrictions for being able to post new threads in the gambling section, please.

[RodeoX]

You could just ignore them? That's what I do for all Ponzi / gambling offers. The thing I find pointless about gambling is that it comes with a guarantee of probable losses. Why not just burn your money to light a joint? At least you will have a lit joint when it's over. 

[apsvinet]

Let the people make their own bad decisions, ignore these offers if you're smart enough to see what they're
really about. Don't ban something just cause a small % of the forum user base gets scammed.
#prochoice

[boumalo]

My guess would be that a third of ponzis were sc.ams, is it a lot or not I let you decide

Ponzicoin has been paying and is now using escrow (my idea ) it feels pretty safe to gamble them, it advertises itself as a ponzi and I would estimate that more than 90% of the money bet is bet by players knowing they are gambling and they can lose

Ponzis are bad in the sense that it is gambling and ponzis on bitcointalk have been used by sc.ammers to get a quick buck; it could be solve by blocking newbies to create new threads on the ponzi section once created

[apsvinet]

My guess would be that a third of ponzis were sc.ams, is it a lot or not I let you decide

Ponzicoin has been paying and is now using escrow (my idea ) it feels pretty safe to gamble them, it advertises itself as a ponzi and I would estimate that more than 90% of the money bet is bet by players knowing they are gambling and they can lose

Ponzis are bad in the sense that it is gambling and ponzis on bitcointalk have been used by sc.ammers to get a quick buck; it could be solve by blocking newbies to create new threads on the ponzi section once created

It's up to everyone to make their own risk-reward calculation when gambling.

[sporket]

^The same thing that distinguishes Three-Card Monte from other card games -- the near certainty of being a scam.

[roslinpl]

What's up?

Did you counted how many new ponzis we had today?
I mean, is number decreasing because IMO it seems so.

[BadBear]

99% of them are spammers as well, seems to be quite a large overlap, most have been banned for that.

[Kyraishi]

Sorry if it would be offtopic,
But this :.
 Update: As of round #7, the last deposit in every round is guaranteed to be paid out at 200%!!!!
actually this would not make a non-idiot person to deposit.
But if you know,  ponzi are not a games where one deposit pay ones..

[DobZombie]

Ponzis are only allowed here because theymos makes a fortunes off these guys.

Greed has paved the way for more human suffering. It's totally disgusting and gives bitcoin a bad name.

Apparently putting the fine print "Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here." allows theymos to sleep at night.  He's more than happy to neglect his responsibility so he can make more BTCBTC.

I'm bitterly disappointed in you theymos. Shame on you.

Shame shame shame.

I'm Derryn Hinch.

[counter]

heck yes I love the idea of a ponzi of sammy section haha.  I can just see it now lol, please make it so.  So grateful would the users of this forum be in my humble opinion.

[roslinpl]

Seems like already 70% less of ponzis, don't you feel it?

Much much more air to breathe

[apsvinet]

Seems like already 70% less of ponzis, don't you feel it?

Much much more air to breathe

Yah I noticed that too, I think it's wonderful to be honest. Not that I think ponzis
shouldn't be allowed, but it's annoying when 99% of all threads in gambling are such.

[boumalo]

Seems like already 70% less of ponzis, don't you feel it?

Much much more air to breathe

Yah I noticed that too, I think it's wonderful to be honest. Not that I think ponzis
shouldn't be allowed, but it's annoying when 99% of all threads in gambling are such.

A ponzi section would eliminate all the ponzis threads from the Gambling section while letting the ponzi fans alone

[apsvinet]

Seems like already 70% less of ponzis, don't you feel it?

Much much more air to breathe

Yah I noticed that too, I think it's wonderful to be honest. Not that I think ponzis
shouldn't be allowed, but it's annoying when 99% of all threads in gambling are such.

A ponzi section would eliminate all the ponzis threads from the Gambling section while letting the ponzi fans alone

They're discussing that in some other thread in the meta, I thought it was actually going through.
Maybe they decided not to though.

[Bit_Happy]

These ponzi posts and threads are entirely overwhelming the gambling board....

So what? It's a gambling board.
Silly Ponzis are not a cancer, they are more like an annoying, stupid commercial.

[apsvinet]

These ponzi posts and threads are entirely overwhelming the gambling board....

So what? It's a gambling board.
Silly Ponzis are not a cancer, they are more like an annoying, stupid commercial.

People will never learn to just not read the posts they find annoying. c:

[boumalo]

Seems like already 70% less of ponzis, don't you feel it?

Much much more air to breathe

Yah I noticed that too, I think it's wonderful to be honest. Not that I think ponzis
shouldn't be allowed, but it's annoying when 99% of all threads in gambling are such.

A ponzi section would eliminate all the ponzis threads from the Gambling section while letting the ponzi fans alone

They're discussing that in some other thread in the meta, I thought it was actually going through.
Maybe they decided not to though.

They may have think it will give ponzis some respectability and some bitcointalk endorsement to allow a whole section for ponzis

I think it would be better to have a ponzi section

[BitOnyx]

When everyone knows that Ponzi is a Ponzi, it is not Ponzi.

Ponzi require lying to people about what they are putting they money into.

This is just another weird lottery, lest ones are going to lose.

[FalconFly]

When everyone knows that Ponzi is a Ponzi, it is not Ponzi.

Ponzi require lying to people about what they are putting they money into.

This is just another weird lottery, lest ones are going to lose.

If the ponzi-man tells everyone it's a ponzi - it's still a ponzi
...except here in the BTC world, the ponzis have learned to be honest about their ops - they'll skim or scam (just like gambling sites etc.) and let everybody know this.

Given enough greed and stupidity + label it "a game", they found the perfect mixture of victims to rip-off.

As I said - only in the Bitcoin world can you witness all that. Bizarre at best - but makes great profts for some.

[apsvinet]

When everyone knows that Ponzi is a Ponzi, it is not Ponzi.

Ponzi require lying to people about what they are putting they money into.

This is just another weird lottery, lest ones are going to lose.

Why does a ponzi require lying? Check the ponzis around here, they're honest about being ponzis. You get paid based on other people's investments, that's how a ponzi runs. The last person that invests loses his money. That being said, most ponzis ( all ) run away with people's money when they've made enough.

[sweetgirl01]

These ponzi posts and threads are entirely overwhelming the gambling board. I understand that people need to make their own decision when "investing" and that ponzis are identified as a gamble but it's beyond that.  There is a reason 3/4 of that board is filled up with PONZI PONZI PONZI. These operators are making a quick BTC. No reliable member has posted to start a ponzi. That should be pretty telling.

Is it possible to move these topics to another child board? Maybe "Ponzis" or "Scammy business ideas" Or even to "Games and rounds" under gambling. Anything to get rid of this clutter.

It is clear, Ponzi scheme is obviously, as a marketing organizations, so that you can not extricate themselves, know that the topic is very fiery, very happy to discuss this topic with you.

[roslinpl]

Well I see -80% ponzis @bitcointalk now

Looks very good Lesson to Pozni owners: Do not create another one please!

[apsvinet]

Well I see -80% ponzis @bitcointalk now

Looks very good Lesson to Pozni owners: Do not create another one please!

They'll keep creating ponzis as long as people keep investing in them.

[boumalo]

When everyone knows that Ponzi is a Ponzi, it is not Ponzi.

Ponzi require lying to people about what they are putting they money into.

This is just another weird lottery, lest ones are going to lose.

Why does a ponzi require lying? Check the ponzis around here, they're honest about being ponzis. You get paid based on other people's investments, that's how a ponzi runs. The last person that invests loses his money. That being said, most ponzis ( all ) run away with people's money when they've made enough.

Yes and that is the biggest problem

It could be fixed by not allowing newbies to create new ponzis or having escrows, ponzicoin tried escrow then the ponzi shut down

[apsvinet]

When everyone knows that Ponzi is a Ponzi, it is not Ponzi.

Ponzi require lying to people about what they are putting they money into.

This is just another weird lottery, lest ones are going to lose.

Why does a ponzi require lying? Check the ponzis around here, they're honest about being ponzis. You get paid based on other people's investments, that's how a ponzi runs. The last person that invests loses his money. That being said, most ponzis ( all ) run away with people's money when they've made enough.

Yes and that is the biggest problem

It could be fixed by not allowing newbies to create new ponzis or having escrows, ponzicoin tried escrow then the ponzi shut down

Thing is you can't force them to be legit, just like the ponzi owners can't force anyone to invest. If people don't use ponzis - they will disappear, if people use them - they'll stay. Let people do whatever they want, at their own risk.

[DeadwoodDan]

hell to the fucking no, you glorious retards of the internet

do not send your bitcoin money to strangers, they will fucking steal it, holy lol will they ever

[superresistant]

hell to the fucking no, you glorious retards of the internet
do not send your bitcoin money to strangers, they will fucking steal it, holy lol will they ever

How do you feel about not understanding the world you live in ?
Frustrated ?
I can tell by your many lonely days spent talking shit on this forum
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=226584;sa=showPosts

You should do something with your life.
You are going nowhere.

[boumalo]

hell to the fucking no, you glorious retards of the internet
do not send your bitcoin money to strangers, they will fucking steal it, holy lol will they ever

How do you feel about not understanding the world you live in ?
Frustrated ?
I can tell by your many lonely days spent talking shit on this forum
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=226584;sa=showPosts

You should do something with your life.
You are going nowhere.

Wow, so many insults! 270 posts for nothing to spread the misery

When everyone knows that Ponzi is a Ponzi, it is not Ponzi.

Ponzi require lying to people about what they are putting they money into.

This is just another weird lottery, lest ones are going to lose.

Why does a ponzi require lying? Check the ponzis around here, they're honest about being ponzis. You get paid based on other people's investments, that's how a ponzi runs. The last person that invests loses his money. That being said, most ponzis ( all ) run away with people's money when they've made enough.

Yes and that is the biggest problem

It could be fixed by not allowing newbies to create new ponzis or having escrows, ponzicoin tried escrow then the ponzi shut down

Thing is you can't force them to be legit, just like the ponzi owners can't force anyone to invest. If people don't use ponzis - they will disappear, if people use them - they'll stay. Let people do whatever they want, at their own risk.

I am not in favor to forbid ponzis games; drugs are horrible but the war on drugs makes it even worse..
I think a few disclaimers and a layer of protection for newbies would be improving the ponzi experience

[apsvinet]

hell to the fucking no, you glorious retards of the internet
do not send your bitcoin money to strangers, they will fucking steal it, holy lol will they ever

How do you feel about not understanding the world you live in ?
Frustrated ?
I can tell by your many lonely days spent talking shit on this forum
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=226584;sa=showPosts

You should do something with your life.
You are going nowhere.

Wow, so many insults! 270 posts for nothing to spread the misery

When everyone knows that Ponzi is a Ponzi, it is not Ponzi.

Ponzi require lying to people about what they are putting they money into.

This is just another weird lottery, lest ones are going to lose.

Why does a ponzi require lying? Check the ponzis around here, they're honest about being ponzis. You get paid based on other people's investments, that's how a ponzi runs. The last person that invests loses his money. That being said, most ponzis ( all ) run away with people's money when they've made enough.

Yes and that is the biggest problem

It could be fixed by not allowing newbies to create new ponzis or having escrows, ponzicoin tried escrow then the ponzi shut down

Thing is you can't force them to be legit, just like the ponzi owners can't force anyone to invest. If people don't use ponzis - they will disappear, if people use them - they'll stay. Let people do whatever they want, at their own risk.

I am not in favor to forbid ponzis games; drugs are horrible but the war on drugs makes it even worse..
I think a few disclaimers and a layer of protection for newbies would be improving the ponzi experience

Exactly. I don't think Ponzis are the problem, the people investing are choosing to do so, investing their own money.
However there should be some stickies etc and warnings for the new people around here. It's no fun if every other newbie gets fooled by the promise of getting free profits.