The cancer that is Ponzi

[apsvinet]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Not anything really I suppose when you look at it, but it's still a big enough part of the forums to have it's own sub forum imo, even if it's within the same category. It would make it easier to navigate and find what you're looking for, for sure.

[apsvinet]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Ponzi is a pyramid scheme. Also, these operators create outlandish rules where if you don't deposit in certain time frames, you don't get any BTC back. That's not gambling. That's stealing.

At least with other forms of gambling, the system is "provably fair" to an extent.

I suppose technically it's gambling. You deposit a sum of money that you might either lose (no more investors, or owner runs off with your money) or win, and gain a profit relative to the amount deposited.

[roslinpl]

New categorization might be good, but what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Ponzi is a pyramid scheme. Also, these operators create outlandish rules where if you don't deposit in certain time frames, you don't get any BTC back. That's not gambling. That's stealing.

At least with other forms of gambling, the system is "provably fair" to an extent.

I suppose technically it's gambling. You deposit a sum of money that you might either lose (no more investors, or owner runs off with your money) or win, and gain a profit relative to the amount deposited.

Let them be whatever they are.
 

I dont care about them any more.


Regards.

[MrPiggles]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

[Vortuarackne]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

How exactly does a mining Ponzi work?

[MrPiggles]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

How exactly does a mining Ponzi work?

You send them 1 bitcoin.

They pay you 0.08 a week, you think holy shit what a return! 8% weekly!

You tell everyone on bitcointalk you're making great returns.

After 4 weeks loads more people have invested.

You've made 0.32 bitcoins in 4 weeks (you're actually still down 0.68btc) and are busily referring people to the mining ponzi.

After however long - mining ponzi operator runs off with all the funds.

Exactly the same as any other ponzi, except instead of "high yield investment programs" or "crowd funding IT startups" they're "mining"

it's kind of obvious when the "mining" company won't even provide a pic of a single miner or prove they've ever generated a single coin

[roslinpl]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

I don't get it? Mining ponzis? Please post more details about this.

[MrPiggles]

Read the post above yours Roslinpl I explained it quite clearly.

[b!z]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

I don't get it? Mining ponzis? Please post more details about this.

Ponzis that claim to use investor money to buy hardware and make 150% daily. They don't actually mine.

[jayc89]

I've been playing PonziCoin (both the full one and Mini) from the start and whilst there has been a few bugs in the code, Vort (the owner) is still a "Newbie" yet he has been straight up and honest with everyone. He admits when there is a problem and works his nuts off to fix it. Overall he has processed more than 200BTC yet I still hear people say "they are just waiting for the big one" - how big does it need to be??

I understand playing a ponzi isnt to everyone's taste - but personally, providing they are sold "as a ponzi" and not trying to offer guaranteed returns etc, I just see it as normal gambling.

Have you guys ever checked these, more successful, ponzis out? They dont "collapse" they run in rounds, which players accept. When the funds dry up a new round starts. If those are the rules, and they are made clear at the very start, then surely it is up to the players to decide whether that's a gamble they want to take?

I think the REAL problem is allowing new forum accounts to post in the gambling section - I'm sure 90% of the Ponzi threads are indeed scammers looking to make a quick BTCBTCBTC

[elbill]

We need a ponzi subforum. Is simple.

[MrPiggles]

the most damaging are the mining ponzis like PBMining.

They doubled their hash rate over night, they won't provide any proof of coin generation, and they're running off with 100+ bitcoins and counting

I don't get it? Mining ponzis? Please post more details about this.

Ponzis that claim to use investor money to buy hardware and make 150% daily. They don't actually mine.

Thank fuck for that, thought I was the only person on this entire forum who could see the obvious

[Rampion]

what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Gambles have provably fair rules.

Ponzis are scams in which, by design, the author can pull the plug whenever he sees fit.

In the best interest of young people and/or newcomers who might not understand this I would add a new subforum called "HYIP/Ponzi/scams", or directly "Scams".

[Silverspoon]

Catnip for the press...

[apsvinet]

what exactly distinguishes a Ponzi-type game from other gambling?

Gambles have provably fair rules.

Ponzis are scams in which, by design, the author can pull the plug whenever he sees fit.

In the best interest of young people and/or newcomers who might not understand this I would add a new subforum called "HYIP/Ponzi/scams", or directly "Scams".

On the other hand you can never guarantee 100% of the gambling
sites out there are provably fair by any means, not even 10% of
them. Besides they can also refuse withdrawals  whenever they see fit.

[Frankie]

Gambles have provably fair rules.

Ponzis are scams in which, by design, the author can pull the plug whenever he sees fit.

In the best interest of young people and/or newcomers who might not understand this I would add a new subforum called "HYIP/Ponzi/scams", or directly "Scams".

On the other hand you can never guarantee 100% of the gambling
sites out there are provably fair by any means, not even 10% of
them. Besides they can also refuse withdrawals  whenever they see fit.

Even if they could make all their transactions transparent to confirm overall rates of return, and even if they allow all withdrawals, winnings could unfairly diverted to shill accounts they control. Say they have a 99.5% EV and can "prove" that they do on the block chain. That's great! But there's no way for a gambler to know that "real" users don't actually have a 90% EV while shill accounts cart away the extra profits. The only way to tell is to play over a long enough period of time that your own low rates of return diverge with statistical significance from the advertise EV. For a game with large variance, proving such a scam would be costly.

This is a problem in real casinos, but it's much more pronounced with Bitcoin where all you need to make another shill account is a couple of prime numbers.

So I don't really know what Rampion means by "provably fair rules." If he means rules that are understood by all players in advance, things like PonziCoin seem to fit the bill. If he means rules that are provably enforced by the operator fairly against players--there seem to be FAR fewer such services than there are gambling sites.

[apsvinet]

Gambles have provably fair rules.

Ponzis are scams in which, by design, the author can pull the plug whenever he sees fit.

In the best interest of young people and/or newcomers who might not understand this I would add a new subforum called "HYIP/Ponzi/scams", or directly "Scams".

On the other hand you can never guarantee 100% of the gambling
sites out there are provably fair by any means, not even 10% of
them. Besides they can also refuse withdrawals  whenever they see fit.

Even if they could make all their transactions transparent to confirm overall rates of return, and even if they allow all withdrawals, winnings could unfairly diverted to shill accounts they control. Say they have a 99.5% EV and can "prove" that they do on the block chain. That's great! But there's no way for a gambler to know that "real" users don't actually have a 90% EV while shill accounts cart away the extra profits. The only way to tell is to play over a long enough period of time that your own low rates of return diverge with statistical significance from the advertise EV. For a game with large variance, proving such a scam would be costly.

This is a problem in real casinos, but it's much more pronounced with Bitcoin where all you need to make another shill account is a couple of prime numbers.

So I don't really know what Rampion means by "provably fair rules." If he means rules that are understood by all players in advance, things like PonziCoin seem to fit the bill. If he means rules that are provably enforced by the operator fairly against players--there seem to be FAR fewer such services than there are gambling sites.

Basically most people see a sign on a website that says "This is provably fair" with some explanation to it that 99% of the users don't have the knowledge about the subject to be able to tell if it's actually true or just complete rubbish. In the end there's no guarantee, and therefore it's called gambling.
If someone told you to throw 100 dollars in the ocean, and that there was a 50% chance he'd give you 150 dollars for doing so, it's a gamble. You risk your money in exchange for a % chance of getting it back with a profit. Is it a tax on stupid people? Perhaps, but it's
a profit-risk calculation everyone has to do on their own. You can't just blindly trust websites that claim they're "provably fair".

[roslinpl]

I am thinking - I don't understand people who play ponzi.

If you want to gable - play @ Ca$ino.
It's legit
It's provable
And 140% is nothing if you are lucky you can get 600% or 6000%

Anyway - It seems like a bit less Ponzis around from few days.

♥♦♣♠

[FalconFly]

IMHO stupid people will always do stupid things... and there's a whole industry to capitalize on exactly that.
Rigged gambling sites (they all are), rigged lotteries, ponzies and all the other junk that's out there. Provably fair is just smoke and mirrors, they are all rigged to make profits off the fools, that's their only business.

When people send money into a site that advertises as "The trusted Ponzi !" *lol* then there's no hope for these fools. Let them play, let them fail. They'll never learn anyway, this is beyond their capabilties...
Stupid may occasionally run out of money - but he'll never run out of stupid.

[apsvinet]

IMHO stupid people will always do stupid things... and there's a whole industry to capitalize on exactly that.

When people send money into a site that advertises as "The trusted Ponzi !" *lol* then there's no hope for these fools. Let them play, let them fail. They'll never learn anyway, this is beyond their capabilties...
Stupid may occasionally run out of money - but he'll never run out of stupid.

This is quite accurate. The only people I see complaining about ponzis are those who have been foolish enough to invest in them.