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Author Topic: How stable will bitcoin be?  (Read 3424 times)
fergalish
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February 14, 2010, 04:51:50 PM
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So, supposing bitcoin, or some variant, manages to completely replace the world's currencies.  This will certainly make some governments unstable, some might well collapse - see http://freedomainradio.com/board/forums/t/19983.aspx

But, there's a big problem here, bitcoin requires electricity and global internet to function well, and these kinds of services probably won't be so stable without working government.

So... bitcoin substitutes currency, government is destabilized, society descends (or ascends?) into anarcy, electricity & internet become unstable, society descends into the next dark age.  Has anyone thought about that?
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xc
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February 14, 2010, 05:11:07 PM
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I recommend Murray Rothbard's For a New Liberty, a full overview of how an anarcho-capitalist society would work.
http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp

It's all in there and available for free (mp3 audio book, full text). 

After that you might try Konkin's New Libertarian Manifesto on Agorism.
http://www.agorism.info/NewLibertarianManifesto.pdf (Full text)
http://www.nostate.com/2111/new-libertarian-manifesto-audio-mp3-podcast/ (Audio book)

Agorism is more the tactical and strategic means of actually getting to an anarcho-capitalist society.

XC

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February 15, 2010, 03:07:01 AM
 #3

So, supposing bitcoin, or some variant, manages to completely replace the world's currencies.  This will certainly make some governments unstable, some might well collapse - see http://freedomainradio.com/board/forums/t/19983.aspx

But, there's a big problem here, bitcoin requires electricity and global internet to function well, and these kinds of services probably won't be so stable without working government.

So... bitcoin substitutes currency, government is destabilized, society descends (or ascends?) into anarcy, electricity & internet become unstable, society descends into the next dark age.  Has anyone thought about that?


Welcome fergalish

Bitcoins will 'never' replace other 'world currencies'. That's a bit like suggesting that PayPal will replace the USD or that Gold will replace Oil or that credit cards will replace paper money. They are just not the same thing, however which ever way you look at it they all help the world go around. Grin Bitcoins are just another currency.

Yes Bitcoin requires electricity and the internet to function. However, this hopefully doesn't rely only on Governments, you are ignoring Capitalism, the 'Corporation' and the free market. Are you suggesting that Bitcoin runs on the cypher net ?  Cool Huh

Anarchy ? That's wishful thinking ! Such is the price of progress... lol

I was a very early Bitcoin adopter - I mined and sold over 12,500+ BTC before they reached just a few cents! I bought a slice of a rather famous Pizza!? and donated 500 BTC to the first Bitcoin Faucet. Got a bit lost along the way... logged out 2010... logged back in 2013... I did 'find' around 25 BTC (in old wallets and sites), which is better than none! <> BBR - CBX - CURE - DASHEMCGAP - GRC - LTC - MINT - NMC - NuBits - PPC - SLM - START - XPM - <> This is not investment advice! <>
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February 15, 2010, 03:10:40 AM
 #4

I recommend Murray Rothbard's For a New Liberty, a full overview of how an anarcho-capitalist society would work.
http://mises.org/rothbard/newlibertywhole.asp

It's all in there and available for free (mp3 audio book, full text). 

After that you might try Konkin's New Libertarian Manifesto on Agorism.
http://www.agorism.info/NewLibertarianManifesto.pdf (Full text)
http://www.nostate.com/2111/new-libertarian-manifesto-audio-mp3-podcast/ (Audio book)

Agorism is more the tactical and strategic means of actually getting to an anarcho-capitalist society.

XC

Welcome XC

Interesting links.

Thanks.

I was a very early Bitcoin adopter - I mined and sold over 12,500+ BTC before they reached just a few cents! I bought a slice of a rather famous Pizza!? and donated 500 BTC to the first Bitcoin Faucet. Got a bit lost along the way... logged out 2010... logged back in 2013... I did 'find' around 25 BTC (in old wallets and sites), which is better than none! <> BBR - CBX - CURE - DASHEMCGAP - GRC - LTC - MINT - NMC - NuBits - PPC - SLM - START - XPM - <> This is not investment advice! <>
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February 15, 2010, 04:42:27 AM
 #5

>>But, there's a big problem here, bitcoin requires electricity and global internet to function well, and these kinds of services probably won't be so stable without working government

False premise.

This e-book by David Friedman (son of Milton Friedman) provides the following:

1. Real world examples of how private enterprise has successfully provided the same services as a government i.e. courts, police, utilities, etc.

2. A precise, logic-based refutation of the idea that anarchy would simply lead to the strongest criminal thugs forming a new government

3. A reduction of many common arguments for the governments existence to absurdity.

It can be found here: http://lectormatic.freeiz.com/machoffreedom/Friedman,_David_-_The_Machinery_of_Freedom.html
fergalish
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February 15, 2010, 01:20:35 PM
 #6

Thanks for the links, I'm reading some of them.  But, let me just say what I'm thinking.  First of all, this thread is considering reasonably improbable long-term outcomes to this bitcoin experiment.  I say reasonably improbable because there will be powerful governments that will do their utmost to prevent changes to the economic status quo.  Just look at Iraq (http://www.rense.com/general34/realre.htm).  So I'm gonna put myself in the shoes of big brother, and here's what I'd do.

I'd switch of the internet - it would cause big problems for me, but perhaps less than bitcoin (or whatever).
I'd buy as many bitcoins as possible - not to destroy them, but to control as much of the underground economy as possible, obviously, I can just print more $crap to buy them with.
Usual scare tactics ("Anarchists seek to destroy economy" etc headlines).
Men in black to seek you out and "convince" you of the error or your ways.


But then, that's not the real problem as I see it.  Democracy is not such a stable form of government.  Any type of regulation always calls for more regulation right?  Eventually it turns into socialism/authoritarian.  Even now, western democracy is turning into a corporate aristocracy.  But, you know what, that's more stable to perturbation.  If a libertarian comes to an authoritarian state, he just has to bend over 'cos there's nothing he can do.

But, if an authoritarian comes to a libertarian state, well he can do lots.  He just needs to gain some power at the start, and he can subjugate others to his will.  And then... authoritarian micro-states!  You can't get rid of a thug unless you become one, and then suddenly we're all thugs and life is reduced to Hobbes' "brutish existence".

What I mean is, libertarianism works fine as long as *everyone* is a libertarian. A minority of authoritarians will destroy it. On the contrary, authoritarianism works fine, it can even be *ruled* by a minority.
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February 16, 2010, 05:51:46 AM
 #7

Thanks for the links, I'm reading some of them.  But, let me just say what I'm thinking.  First of all, this thread is considering reasonably improbable long-term outcomes to this bitcoin experiment.  I say reasonably improbable because there will be powerful governments that will do their utmost to prevent changes to the economic status quo.  Just look at Iraq (http://www.rense.com/general34/realre.htm).  So I'm gonna put myself in the shoes of big brother, and here's what I'd do.

You use "I" the pronoun for a single individual to refer "the government" a noun that represents representatives from 50 different states, numerous interacting, and sometimes competing, regulatory agencies and independent bodies.  I know some people believe that the entire government moves with a single will, controlled by a single individual or a shadowy cabal, but I have not seen convincing evidence for this.  Instead I see the tyrannies and injustices of governments as natural products of our current democratic system and way of living.  I also believe many tyrannies and injustices do not spawn from malicious intent and that the people who support or implement them are merely misguided, not evil.  This is why I beleive the internet will not be shut down by the government, even if it means they have to start begging for money instead of taking it by force (the government can be very good at begging).   

It is this belief that tyranny is a natural product of certain "sociological algorithms" that leads me to support bitcoin and other, what i guess could be called "agorist" solutions.  Solutions that don't try to fight the system or even change it (these rarely work out), but instead, try to change a few of the inputs to the "sociological algorithm" and thus, change the output. 

What I mean is, libertarianism works fine as long as *everyone* is a libertarian. A minority of authoritarians will destroy it. On the contrary, authoritarianism works fine, it can even be *ruled* by a minority.

Quote from: The Machinery of Freedom
Anyone with a little imagination can dream up a radical new structure for society, anarcho-capitalist or otherwise. The question is, will it work? Most people, when they hear my description of anarcho-capitalism for the first time, immediately explain to me two or three reasons why it won't. Most of their arguments can be reduced to two: The system will be at the mercy of the mafia, which can establish its own 'protection agency' or take over existing ones and convert them into protection rackets. Or else the protection agencies will realize that theft is more profitable than business, get together, and become a government. Read the rest...
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