You don't need a mobile device to make lightning payments

[onelineproof]

I would like to dispell the myth that you need a mobile device to pay at a store with lightning. I personally don't carry a phone or such device with me when I am outside.

I think it is quite simple actually.

1) Set up a lightning node at home
2) Print little paper bills with QR codes that act as one time auth keys for telling your node to send money with lightning. Print different denominations such as 10k satoshi, 50k satoshi, 100k satoshi
3) At the store, whatever the price, you give the paper bills and they scan them, and (as long as they have a computer with an internet connection) then your node sends the right amount. The denomination of the bill would specify the maximum that your node would send for the auth key. So if you have to pay the store cashier 152k satoshi, then you would give a 100k bill, a 50k bill, and a 10k bill. Yes they may steal 8k satoshi from the extra amount allowed by your 10k bill, but that's worth like 50 cents now, so it's a small risk, and you can use smaller denominations if you wish.

This type of setup would need a standard protocol that nodes use and cashiers would have on their computers, so would be worth starting on this if someone wants.

Edit: You can also use plastic/cardboard cards with a fixed code that has a daily limit and you can set "approved merchants" that are identified by public keys, and each merchant can have a unique daily limit.

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[joshkkk]

I think it's a great idea and it's pretty safe.

[DooMAD]

I would like to dispell the myth that you need a mobile device to pay at a store with lightning. I personally don't carry a phone or such device with me when I am outside.

I think it is quite simple actually.

1) Set up a lightning node at home
2) Print little paper bills with QR codes that act as one time auth keys for telling your node to send money with lightning. Print different denominations such as 10k satoshi, 50k satoshi, 100k satoshi
3) At the store, whatever the price, you give the paper bills and they scan them, and (as long as they have a computer with an internet connection) then your node sends the right amount. The denomination of the bill would specify the maximum that your node would send for the auth key. So if you have to pay the store cashier 152k satoshi, then you would give a 100k bill, a 50k bill, and a 10k bill. Yes they may steal 8k satoshi from the extra amount allowed by your 10k bill, but that's worth like 50 cents now, so it's a small risk, and you can use smaller denominations if you wish.

This type of setup would need a standard protocol that nodes use and cashiers would have on their computers, so would be worth starting on this if someone wants.

How would it work with multiple stores?  I'm guessing you'd need a channel open with each of them?  Without a device, you won't know what routing is available in real-time.  Do you then have to be a bit more careful and make sure you've given them the bills for the right channel?  Could get slightly messy.

[onelineproof]

How would it work with multiple stores?  I'm guessing you'd need a channel open with each of them?  Without a device, you won't know what routing is available in real-time.  Do you then have to be a bit more careful and make sure you've given them the bills for the right channel?  Could get slightly messy.

My understanding of the Lightning Network is that no funding/waiting is needed as long as the sender of the transaction has funded a channel that is within n hops of a node that has funded a channel with the receiver. Correct?

Also, if by chance there is no route between my home node and the receiver, then my node can automatically try to establish a funding channel with the receiver (can take time of course to confirm on the blockchain). But in any case the receiver would have to create the invoice and send that together with my auth code to my node, and my node would look at the invoice to make sure the right person gets paid.

[zolfa]

I think the transaction will be more practical if bitcoin has MasterCard, we only fill in the MasterCard balance, then we can use it for each transaction.

we don't need a QR code, or we don't need perfect data, we only need to use MasterCard bitcoin.

[figmentofmyass]

How would it work with multiple stores?  I'm guessing you'd need a channel open with each of them?  Without a device, you won't know what routing is available in real-time.  Do you then have to be a bit more careful and make sure you've given them the bills for the right channel?  Could get slightly messy.

without a channel open with each store already, the setup seems to assume that both nodes are well-connected (whether via various channels or a hub of sorts). if the bills weren't for the right channel (so to speak), i suppose the store wouldn't receive the payment---easy enough.

Also, if by chance there is no route between my home node and the receiver, then my node can automatically try to establish a funding channel with the receiver (can take time of course to confirm on the blockchain). But in any case the receiver would have to create the invoice and send that together with my auth code to my node, and my node would look at the invoice to make sure the right person gets paid.

sounds like a case where i'd prefer to send a standard bitcoin payment.

[hatshepsut93]

Can you tell us in detail how step 2 works? What exactly are these "auth keys" are you talking about? There is nothing like that in any cryptocurrency wallet, because a signed transaction requires the knowledge of receiving address, so you can't create any crypto-notes that can be sent to anyone.

Do you mean that your node is online at your home and has some custom software that operates as a server that merchants can send their payment requests to, and it requires authentication codes? Sounds very inconvenient for both the user and the merchant, why not just buy a cheap phone and pay with one fast QR scan?

[onelineproof]

Do you mean that your node is online at your home and has some custom software that operates as a server that merchants can send their payment requests to, and it requires authentication codes?

Ya basically. A protocol like this would need to be standardized of course, it's still not existent. But for privacy reasons, security reasons (phone gets hacked), and other reasons, I don't like to use a phone, and would prefer just to pay by paper, so if others feel that way, then we can create something, and it could be more accessible to a wider variety of people. No rush Just brainstorming and making it clear because I keep seeing posts saying you need a mobile phone to pay by lightning, and you can't have anything equivalent to a paper wallet.

O ya, and for people who are unable to setup a server at home, they can use a 3rd party "trusted" service where they can just print a bunch of paper bills associated with their account, all just by logging in to an online interface.

It could also be just a plastic card with a fixed code that has a daily limit, and each store would have to send auth credentials (cryptographic signature) together with the code, and you can have a "whitelist" of trusted merchants (public keys) with a limit specified for each merchant. Lots of different variations of this idea.

[vit05]

Why would we go back to paper? Please do not. We have already passed this stage. In addition, it would make the use of Bitcoin as a means of payment even more technical. For both the payer and the receiver. We need to simplify, not hinder.

I believe that smart cards can eventually be used in transactions using LN. And the principle would not be so far away from its proposal. But paper, printer, have an always online node etc. There are many things that can go wrong in this proposed scheme.

[pooya87]

A protocol like this would need to be standardized of course, it's still not existent.

you might wanna add that to your opening post!
i am no expert in the matter but are you sure that it can even work? for example the MAX part i am sure won't work because these are transactions that you are partially signing you can't create a transaction that has a variable amount. if you sign it with 10k satoshi, it will be worth 10k satoshi and no more or less. so you can't send 9.9k if the shop asks for that much.

O ya, and for people who are unable to setup a server at home, they can use a 3rd party "trusted" service

all this fuss is happening so that we don't need "third parties"

[libert19]

There are always alternatives. Mobile payments are popular because literally everyone have it. Don't make simple things complicated.

[xbossJ]

The real crypto payments are driven by mobile devices, I don't see how this would be possible. Not needing a mobile device to make lightening  payments is not exactly true. Even those who propose SMS based crypto transactions would still need a mobile device to have them go through!

[hatshepsut93]

Do you mean that your node is online at your home and has some custom software that operates as a server that merchants can send their payment requests to, and it requires authentication codes?

Ya basically. A protocol like this would need to be standardized of course, it's still not existent. But for privacy reasons, security reasons (phone gets hacked), and other reasons, I don't like to use a phone, and would prefer just to pay by paper, so if others feel that way, then we can create something, and it could be more accessible to a wider variety of people. No rush Just brainstorming and making it clear because I keep seeing posts saying you need a mobile phone to pay by lightning, and you can't have anything equivalent to a paper wallet.

I don't think that there are any improvements in privacy here. As for security, a phone is actually way more secure than this theoretical software, because mobile OS are more resilient than desktops, and you are also turning your desktop into a server, as I understand. Also, vulnerabilities in your software could lead to your whole wallet being drained.

This system is really inconvenient for merchants, they would have to scan multiple codes, then wait for your node and hope that during this whole process there won't be any errors. It might take minutes, and in some cases merchants might not be able to afford to wait so long. It also doesn't make Bitcoin physical, because merchants need to have Internet connection, so users might as well just connect to their Wi-Fi.

Overall, I don't see such system being widely adopted, although maybe something like that will be used if both parties will need it for some reasons.

[qiman]

I think it is good now to have usage of Bitcoin payments both online and offline in Mobile so people can have a choice as some people prefer to make payments online and others prefer through their phone, depending on the situation and what they are purchasing. Lightning network has made everything so much cheaper and easier where Bitcoin transactions and payments are concerned. Now it is much cheaper per transaction and much faster!

[diabolo]

I would like to dispell the myth that you need a mobile device to pay at a store with lightning. I personally don't carry a phone or such device with me when I am outside.

I think it is quite simple actually.

1) Set up a lightning node at home
2) Print little paper bills with QR codes that act as one time auth keys for telling your node to send money with lightning. Print different denominations such as 10k satoshi, 50k satoshi, 100k satoshi
3) At the store, whatever the price, you give the paper bills and they scan them, and (as long as they have a computer with an internet connection) then your node sends the right amount. The denomination of the bill would specify the maximum that your node would send for the auth key. So if you have to pay the store cashier 152k satoshi, then you would give a 100k bill, a 50k bill, and a 10k bill. Yes they may steal 8k satoshi from the extra amount allowed by your 10k bill, but that's worth like 50 cents now, so it's a small risk, and you can use smaller denominations if you wish.

This type of setup would need a standard protocol that nodes use and cashiers would have on their computers, so would be worth starting on this if someone wants.

wow that's a very brilliant idea, I just realized that it can be done.

[Kakmakr]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again.  

The whole idea of Bitcoin, was to replace the old way of physically printing money <Fiat currencies> and now people want to go back to that again? Nope, I think you must go back to the drawing board with your idea and eliminate the "printing" idea.  

[Pursuer]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again. 

The whole idea of Bitcoin, was to replace the old way of physically printing money <Fiat currencies> and now people want to go back to that again? Nope, I think you must go back to the drawing board with your idea and eliminate the "printing" idea.   

exactly my thoughts. why would you want to use bitcoin if you want to carry around a "piece of paper", just use cash, it is more convenient that way and it is accepted everywhere.

even if you wanted to use bitcoin then why use lightning network? why not simply use bitcoin with on-chain transactions? you can print private keys each containing a certain amount of bitcoin in them (10k, 50k,...) and go around giving them as money and if there is "change" you can also print an "address" on the same paper which they can send the change back to.

[figmentofmyass]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again.  

what about paper wallets? i've still got some love for them!

i quite like the idea of scannable paper bills, though it's more of a novelty to me than anything else. i definitely think payment via smartphone is the direction we're heading here. it's tough to see LN being convenient or easy-to-use without a mobile device in the context of brick-and-mortar stores.

[franky1]

seems like the OP just made his node open to receive a different API/RPC from other peers.. but that needs programming into a reference version or other peers to understand and send(its not part of lightning).

EG coupons QRcode being
01a6074d8ed235affa4bf525a35481d29e17ee82d6b08710473634fd08bfb0968a @111.222.11.11:9735?=x12345

where the part before the ?=
is the URI that identifys where to send the code (imagine it being the OP's home node)

and after the ?= is what the OP's node receives and is personally programmed to do in response

well. here is a thought.
connect a wire from a LED on the front panel of your computer. and have that wire connect to the electronic switch of your kitchen kettle.

then program your desktop node to light the desktops front panel LED (flick the kettle switch)
and now when you want to have a coffee via lightning you can use your system to remotely switch your own kitchen kettle on

. .. yep i just informed you on something and can see you replying "OMG lightning can be used to control and create a smarthome"

[darkangel11]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again.  

The whole idea of Bitcoin, was to replace the old way of physically printing money <Fiat currencies> and now people want to go back to that again? Nope, I think you must go back to the drawing board with your idea and eliminate the "printing" idea.  

exactly my thoughts. why would you want to use bitcoin if you want to carry around a "piece of paper", just use cash, it is more convenient that way and it is accepted everywhere.

even if you wanted to use bitcoin then why use lightning network? why not simply use bitcoin with on-chain transactions? you can print private keys each containing a certain amount of bitcoin in them (10k, 50k,...) and go around giving them as money and if there is "change" you can also print an "address" on the same paper which they can send the change back to.

It gets even better. OP's giving an example where he has a specific amount to spend. Like he knows that there are things worth $10, $5, $1 at the store and he takes all of these in the form of qr codes. But what if you're going to a mall, ready to spend a few hundred USD. Are you going to print 3x 100, 5x 50, 10x10 and then juggle these bills around while the clerk scans? This would have to be the slowest and most annoying way to pay at a store. Only a true nerd would choose it.

[hadveach]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again.  

The whole idea of Bitcoin, was to replace the old way of physically printing money <Fiat currencies> and now people want to go back to that again? Nope, I think you must go back to the drawing board with your idea and eliminate the "printing" idea.  

exactly my thoughts. why would you want to use bitcoin if you want to carry around a "piece of paper", just use cash, it is more convenient that way and it is accepted everywhere.

even if you wanted to use bitcoin then why use lightning network? why not simply use bitcoin with on-chain transactions? you can print private keys each containing a certain amount of bitcoin in them (10k, 50k,...) and go around giving them as money and if there is "change" you can also print an "address" on the same paper which they can send the change back to.

It gets even better. OP's giving an example where he has a specific amount to spend. Like he knows that there are things worth $10, $5, $1 at the store and he takes all of these in the form of qr codes. But what if you're going to a mall, ready to spend a few hundred USD. Are you going to print 3x 100, 5x 50, 10x10 and then juggle these bills around while the clerk scans? This would have to be the slowest and most annoying way to pay at a store. Only a true nerd would choose it.

Yes, I agree with you, we need innovation that is faster and simpler. it's slow and boring, so I think people will choose fiat.

I think about crypto cards that store every digital currency, what do you think about it?

[franky1]

It gets even better. OP's giving an example where he has a specific amount to spend. Like he knows that there are things worth $10, $5, $1 at the store and he takes all of these in the form of qr codes. But what if you're going to a mall, ready to spend a few hundred USD. Are you going to print 3x 100, 5x 50, 10x10 and then juggle these bills around while the clerk scans? This would have to be the slowest and most annoying way to pay at a store. Only a true nerd would choose it.

well the OP hasnt finalised his idea and its not standard to LN
so the OP can edit his idea wherby the URI he creates also includes a prompt. so like where my post joked about x12345 being part of the paper QR code.. could instead just have the bit before the ?= as the paper QR code.. which once standardised could then allow the OP to verbally tell the merchant to type in a password into the prompt

like "x12345"(switch kettle on) but instead "jamaica512" which the OP programmed his node that morning to allow a payment of upto $600 if jamaica password is received. whereby the 512 is the actual amount below $600 he wants to spend.

or like i said before. he can have it that when he says "x12334" it switches on his kitchen kettle at home

[DooMAD]

If PSBT (partially signed Bitcoin transactions) starts to see common usage and people get comfortable making "offline transactions", it's the type of idea we could revisit later.  At present, though, I'm not really seeing it.  We can test the waters when 0.17.0 is out and PSBT is (most likely) implemented.

[onelineproof]

It gets even better. OP's giving an example where he has a specific amount to spend. Like he knows that there are things worth $10, $5, $1 at the store and he takes all of these in the form of qr codes. But what if you're going to a mall, ready to spend a few hundred USD. Are you going to print 3x 100, 5x 50, 10x10 and then juggle these bills around while the clerk scans? This would have to be the slowest and most annoying way to pay at a store. Only a true nerd would choose it.

Like I said I open also to using a plastic (or other material) card that would work like a credit card with daily limits and approved merchants (identified with public keys). The paper bills would be a backup choice for untrusted merchants or when your phone battery dies, just a primitive way to pay without strings attached.

[Jyominall]

I think it's useless because everyone have a phone. And not many people want to make complicated everyday things

[9jaflick]

I would like to dispell the myth that you need a mobile device to pay at a store with lightning. I personally don't carry a phone or such device with me when I am outside.

I think it is quite simple actually.

1) Set up a lightning node at home
2) Print little paper bills with QR codes that act as one time auth keys for telling your node to send money with lightning. Print different denominations such as 10k satoshi, 50k satoshi, 100k satoshi
3) At the store, whatever the price, you give the paper bills and they scan them, and (as long as they have a computer with an internet connection) then your node sends the right amount. The denomination of the bill would specify the maximum that your node would send for the auth key. So if you have to pay the store cashier 152k satoshi, then you would give a 100k bill, a 50k bill, and a 10k bill. Yes they may steal 8k satoshi from the extra amount allowed by your 10k bill, but that's worth like 50 cents now, so it's a small risk, and you can use smaller denominations if you wish.

This type of setup would need a standard protocol that nodes use and cashiers would have on their computers, so would be worth starting on this if someone wants.

Edit: You can also use plastic/cardboard cards with a fixed code that has a daily limit and you can set "approved merchants" that are identified by public keys, and each merchant can have a unique daily limit.

your method is cool, but it's am using, because the method is limited only to those that are technically oriented in terms of utilizing blockchain/lightning network.

[maloibtc]

I think it is the great way to make payments today because all of them are safe and secure. the digital method of making payments with the help of crypto is the best one and I think that btc is the leader

[darkangel11]

It gets even better. OP's giving an example where he has a specific amount to spend. Like he knows that there are things worth $10, $5, $1 at the store and he takes all of these in the form of qr codes. But what if you're going to a mall, ready to spend a few hundred USD. Are you going to print 3x 100, 5x 50, 10x10 and then juggle these bills around while the clerk scans? This would have to be the slowest and most annoying way to pay at a store. Only a true nerd would choose it.

Like I said I open also to using a plastic (or other material) card that would work like a credit card with daily limits and approved merchants (identified with public keys). The paper bills would be a backup choice for untrusted merchants or when your phone battery dies, just a primitive way to pay without strings attached.

If you managed to make it work, or make it work the way franky1 described it, it would be a very nice backup. I thought you wanted to use the paper qr codes as the main way of payment as a substitute for phone and card, but that would be too much of a hassle both to you and the store clerk. A substitute for paper money when you're going full crypto and want to be able to pay even if you lose phone connection? Sure, why not?

[onelineproof]

I think phone is a hassle. You have to pull it out of the case, put the password, open the menu, go to the lightning app, scan some qr code, click pay... hopefully your battery is fine and you have signal. People already pay with cards these days. You can just give the cashier a card, they scan it, and it's done. You don't have to run a node at home if you don't want to, you can use a 3rd party service. It's not like full nodes are running on mobile phones anyway. I think all 3 methods should be supported and standardized at Point-of-Sale locations (phone, card, paper bills), and let people choose. The way I see it is Bitcoin: Be your own bank, Lightning: Be your own credit card company.

[marcus00]

The vulnerability in your software can lead to your entire wallet being exhausted. It may take several minutes, and in some cases the trader may not be able to afford to wait too long. In general, I do not see such a system being extensively adopted, although maybe something like that would be used if both sides would need it for some reason. The lightning network has made things cheaper and much easier when Bitcoin transactions and payments are involved.

[BigSamson5]

The lightning network has made things cheaper and much easier when Bitcoin transactions and payments are involved. If PSBT starts to see widespread use and people are comfortable making "offline deals," that's kind of an idea that we can revisit later. We can test the waters when 0.17.0 is given and PSBT is done and not many people want to do daily things complicated. The digital method of making payments with the help of encryption is the best and I think btc is the leading

[faceoff97]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again. 

The whole idea of Bitcoin, was to replace the old way of physically printing money <Fiat currencies> and now people want to go back to that again? Nope, I think you must go back to the drawing board with your idea and eliminate the "printing" idea.   

This says it all! We are heading  to a cashless society and then why is that we have to print qr code again?  Another thing is that, mobile app would be the future of the market, and payment will totally go with it. Having mobile is more than enough, I don't see the need for anything that will complicate thing, after all most of us are having mobile phone. Check this open source wallet and see for your self great featurea a mobile app wallet can offer: https://hodler.tech/?lang=en That is an open source wallet which offers great feature which allows people to make payment is the most simplest way with great security features.