You don't need a mobile device to make lightning payments

[onelineproof]

I would like to dispell the myth that you need a mobile device to pay at a store with lightning. I personally don't carry a phone or such device with me when I am outside.

I think it is quite simple actually.

1) Set up a lightning node at home
2) Print little paper bills with QR codes that act as one time auth keys for telling your node to send money with lightning. Print different denominations such as 10k satoshi, 50k satoshi, 100k satoshi
3) At the store, whatever the price, you give the paper bills and they scan them, and (as long as they have a computer with an internet connection) then your node sends the right amount. The denomination of the bill would specify the maximum that your node would send for the auth key. So if you have to pay the store cashier 152k satoshi, then you would give a 100k bill, a 50k bill, and a 10k bill. Yes they may steal 8k satoshi from the extra amount allowed by your 10k bill, but that's worth like 50 cents now, so it's a small risk, and you can use smaller denominations if you wish.

This type of setup would need a standard protocol that nodes use and cashiers would have on their computers, so would be worth starting on this if someone wants.

Edit: You can also use plastic/cardboard cards with a fixed code that has a daily limit and you can set "approved merchants" that are identified by public keys, and each merchant can have a unique daily limit.

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[joshkkk]

I think it's a great idea and it's pretty safe.

[DooMAD]

I would like to dispell the myth that you need a mobile device to pay at a store with lightning. I personally don't carry a phone or such device with me when I am outside.

I think it is quite simple actually.

1) Set up a lightning node at home
2) Print little paper bills with QR codes that act as one time auth keys for telling your node to send money with lightning. Print different denominations such as 10k satoshi, 50k satoshi, 100k satoshi
3) At the store, whatever the price, you give the paper bills and they scan them, and (as long as they have a computer with an internet connection) then your node sends the right amount. The denomination of the bill would specify the maximum that your node would send for the auth key. So if you have to pay the store cashier 152k satoshi, then you would give a 100k bill, a 50k bill, and a 10k bill. Yes they may steal 8k satoshi from the extra amount allowed by your 10k bill, but that's worth like 50 cents now, so it's a small risk, and you can use smaller denominations if you wish.

This type of setup would need a standard protocol that nodes use and cashiers would have on their computers, so would be worth starting on this if someone wants.

How would it work with multiple stores?  I'm guessing you'd need a channel open with each of them?  Without a device, you won't know what routing is available in real-time.  Do you then have to be a bit more careful and make sure you've given them the bills for the right channel?  Could get slightly messy.

[onelineproof]

How would it work with multiple stores?  I'm guessing you'd need a channel open with each of them?  Without a device, you won't know what routing is available in real-time.  Do you then have to be a bit more careful and make sure you've given them the bills for the right channel?  Could get slightly messy.

My understanding of the Lightning Network is that no funding/waiting is needed as long as the sender of the transaction has funded a channel that is within n hops of a node that has funded a channel with the receiver. Correct?

Also, if by chance there is no route between my home node and the receiver, then my node can automatically try to establish a funding channel with the receiver (can take time of course to confirm on the blockchain). But in any case the receiver would have to create the invoice and send that together with my auth code to my node, and my node would look at the invoice to make sure the right person gets paid.

[zolfa]

I think the transaction will be more practical if bitcoin has MasterCard, we only fill in the MasterCard balance, then we can use it for each transaction.

we don't need a QR code, or we don't need perfect data, we only need to use MasterCard bitcoin.

[figmentofmyass]

How would it work with multiple stores?  I'm guessing you'd need a channel open with each of them?  Without a device, you won't know what routing is available in real-time.  Do you then have to be a bit more careful and make sure you've given them the bills for the right channel?  Could get slightly messy.

without a channel open with each store already, the setup seems to assume that both nodes are well-connected (whether via various channels or a hub of sorts). if the bills weren't for the right channel (so to speak), i suppose the store wouldn't receive the payment---easy enough.

Also, if by chance there is no route between my home node and the receiver, then my node can automatically try to establish a funding channel with the receiver (can take time of course to confirm on the blockchain). But in any case the receiver would have to create the invoice and send that together with my auth code to my node, and my node would look at the invoice to make sure the right person gets paid.

sounds like a case where i'd prefer to send a standard bitcoin payment.

[hatshepsut93]

Can you tell us in detail how step 2 works? What exactly are these "auth keys" are you talking about? There is nothing like that in any cryptocurrency wallet, because a signed transaction requires the knowledge of receiving address, so you can't create any crypto-notes that can be sent to anyone.

Do you mean that your node is online at your home and has some custom software that operates as a server that merchants can send their payment requests to, and it requires authentication codes? Sounds very inconvenient for both the user and the merchant, why not just buy a cheap phone and pay with one fast QR scan?

[onelineproof]

Do you mean that your node is online at your home and has some custom software that operates as a server that merchants can send their payment requests to, and it requires authentication codes?

Ya basically. A protocol like this would need to be standardized of course, it's still not existent. But for privacy reasons, security reasons (phone gets hacked), and other reasons, I don't like to use a phone, and would prefer just to pay by paper, so if others feel that way, then we can create something, and it could be more accessible to a wider variety of people. No rush Just brainstorming and making it clear because I keep seeing posts saying you need a mobile phone to pay by lightning, and you can't have anything equivalent to a paper wallet.

O ya, and for people who are unable to setup a server at home, they can use a 3rd party "trusted" service where they can just print a bunch of paper bills associated with their account, all just by logging in to an online interface.

It could also be just a plastic card with a fixed code that has a daily limit, and each store would have to send auth credentials (cryptographic signature) together with the code, and you can have a "whitelist" of trusted merchants (public keys) with a limit specified for each merchant. Lots of different variations of this idea.

[vit05]

Why would we go back to paper? Please do not. We have already passed this stage. In addition, it would make the use of Bitcoin as a means of payment even more technical. For both the payer and the receiver. We need to simplify, not hinder.

I believe that smart cards can eventually be used in transactions using LN. And the principle would not be so far away from its proposal. But paper, printer, have an always online node etc. There are many things that can go wrong in this proposed scheme.

[pooya87]

A protocol like this would need to be standardized of course, it's still not existent.

you might wanna add that to your opening post!
i am no expert in the matter but are you sure that it can even work? for example the MAX part i am sure won't work because these are transactions that you are partially signing you can't create a transaction that has a variable amount. if you sign it with 10k satoshi, it will be worth 10k satoshi and no more or less. so you can't send 9.9k if the shop asks for that much.

O ya, and for people who are unable to setup a server at home, they can use a 3rd party "trusted" service

all this fuss is happening so that we don't need "third parties"

[libert19]

There are always alternatives. Mobile payments are popular because literally everyone have it. Don't make simple things complicated.

[xbossJ]

The real crypto payments are driven by mobile devices, I don't see how this would be possible. Not needing a mobile device to make lightening  payments is not exactly true. Even those who propose SMS based crypto transactions would still need a mobile device to have them go through!

[hatshepsut93]

Do you mean that your node is online at your home and has some custom software that operates as a server that merchants can send their payment requests to, and it requires authentication codes?

Ya basically. A protocol like this would need to be standardized of course, it's still not existent. But for privacy reasons, security reasons (phone gets hacked), and other reasons, I don't like to use a phone, and would prefer just to pay by paper, so if others feel that way, then we can create something, and it could be more accessible to a wider variety of people. No rush Just brainstorming and making it clear because I keep seeing posts saying you need a mobile phone to pay by lightning, and you can't have anything equivalent to a paper wallet.

I don't think that there are any improvements in privacy here. As for security, a phone is actually way more secure than this theoretical software, because mobile OS are more resilient than desktops, and you are also turning your desktop into a server, as I understand. Also, vulnerabilities in your software could lead to your whole wallet being drained.

This system is really inconvenient for merchants, they would have to scan multiple codes, then wait for your node and hope that during this whole process there won't be any errors. It might take minutes, and in some cases merchants might not be able to afford to wait so long. It also doesn't make Bitcoin physical, because merchants need to have Internet connection, so users might as well just connect to their Wi-Fi.

Overall, I don't see such system being widely adopted, although maybe something like that will be used if both parties will need it for some reasons.

[qiman]

I think it is good now to have usage of Bitcoin payments both online and offline in Mobile so people can have a choice as some people prefer to make payments online and others prefer through their phone, depending on the situation and what they are purchasing. Lightning network has made everything so much cheaper and easier where Bitcoin transactions and payments are concerned. Now it is much cheaper per transaction and much faster!

[diabolo]

I would like to dispell the myth that you need a mobile device to pay at a store with lightning. I personally don't carry a phone or such device with me when I am outside.

I think it is quite simple actually.

1) Set up a lightning node at home
2) Print little paper bills with QR codes that act as one time auth keys for telling your node to send money with lightning. Print different denominations such as 10k satoshi, 50k satoshi, 100k satoshi
3) At the store, whatever the price, you give the paper bills and they scan them, and (as long as they have a computer with an internet connection) then your node sends the right amount. The denomination of the bill would specify the maximum that your node would send for the auth key. So if you have to pay the store cashier 152k satoshi, then you would give a 100k bill, a 50k bill, and a 10k bill. Yes they may steal 8k satoshi from the extra amount allowed by your 10k bill, but that's worth like 50 cents now, so it's a small risk, and you can use smaller denominations if you wish.

This type of setup would need a standard protocol that nodes use and cashiers would have on their computers, so would be worth starting on this if someone wants.

wow that's a very brilliant idea, I just realized that it can be done.

[Kakmakr]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again.  

The whole idea of Bitcoin, was to replace the old way of physically printing money <Fiat currencies> and now people want to go back to that again? Nope, I think you must go back to the drawing board with your idea and eliminate the "printing" idea.  

[Pursuer]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again. 

The whole idea of Bitcoin, was to replace the old way of physically printing money <Fiat currencies> and now people want to go back to that again? Nope, I think you must go back to the drawing board with your idea and eliminate the "printing" idea.   

exactly my thoughts. why would you want to use bitcoin if you want to carry around a "piece of paper", just use cash, it is more convenient that way and it is accepted everywhere.

even if you wanted to use bitcoin then why use lightning network? why not simply use bitcoin with on-chain transactions? you can print private keys each containing a certain amount of bitcoin in them (10k, 50k,...) and go around giving them as money and if there is "change" you can also print an "address" on the same paper which they can send the change back to.

[figmentofmyass]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again.  

what about paper wallets? i've still got some love for them!

i quite like the idea of scannable paper bills, though it's more of a novelty to me than anything else. i definitely think payment via smartphone is the direction we're heading here. it's tough to see LN being convenient or easy-to-use without a mobile device in the context of brick-and-mortar stores.

[franky1]

seems like the OP just made his node open to receive a different API/RPC from other peers.. but that needs programming into a reference version or other peers to understand and send(its not part of lightning).

EG coupons QRcode being
01a6074d8ed235affa4bf525a35481d29e17ee82d6b08710473634fd08bfb0968a @111.222.11.11:9735?=x12345

where the part before the ?=
is the URI that identifys where to send the code (imagine it being the OP's home node)

and after the ?= is what the OP's node receives and is personally programmed to do in response

well. here is a thought.
connect a wire from a LED on the front panel of your computer. and have that wire connect to the electronic switch of your kitchen kettle.

then program your desktop node to light the desktops front panel LED (flick the kettle switch)
and now when you want to have a coffee via lightning you can use your system to remotely switch your own kitchen kettle on

. .. yep i just informed you on something and can see you replying "OMG lightning can be used to control and create a smarthome"

[darkangel11]

I do not want to piss on the parade here, but is the whole idea of the Lightning Network not to have a 100% digital <Lightning Fast> payment network? we will go backwards, if we start the physical printing of "money" again.  

The whole idea of Bitcoin, was to replace the old way of physically printing money <Fiat currencies> and now people want to go back to that again? Nope, I think you must go back to the drawing board with your idea and eliminate the "printing" idea.  

exactly my thoughts. why would you want to use bitcoin if you want to carry around a "piece of paper", just use cash, it is more convenient that way and it is accepted everywhere.

even if you wanted to use bitcoin then why use lightning network? why not simply use bitcoin with on-chain transactions? you can print private keys each containing a certain amount of bitcoin in them (10k, 50k,...) and go around giving them as money and if there is "change" you can also print an "address" on the same paper which they can send the change back to.

It gets even better. OP's giving an example where he has a specific amount to spend. Like he knows that there are things worth $10, $5, $1 at the store and he takes all of these in the form of qr codes. But what if you're going to a mall, ready to spend a few hundred USD. Are you going to print 3x 100, 5x 50, 10x10 and then juggle these bills around while the clerk scans? This would have to be the slowest and most annoying way to pay at a store. Only a true nerd would choose it.