BTC is near end, proof block 2

[dohh]

This topic will be probably be locked very soon and I have to repost it to CNC.
In my opinion BTC is a pyramid, a ponzi and a pump and dump scheme at the same time. Here is why:

1) BTC is a pyramid scheme for 2 reasons.

a) only way to generate new coins, is to mine. And mining is getting 2 times more pointless with every halvening. That is an optimistic estimation and is precise only in condition is number of miners remains constant. If number of miners doubles within one halvening period, mining will get 4 times more pointless!

Satoshi (and small group early miners):  huge reward in return of computing power                        $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
After few halvenings (much bigger group of miners): 2 times less money in return of same task                $$$$$$$$
Now (huge group of miners): many times less money for same task                                                             $

A clear pyramid.

b) Pyramids are defined as schemes that dont involve a real product behind it. BTC supporters claim, they have product. Well, I say, its just a camouflage. Kyäni masked scheme with juice drink, Kairosplaner masked scheme with whole user interface. They were still schemes.

BTC is scheme because it can not be scaled to necessary volumes (or even nearly close) and this information is kept secret. Instead of admitting it, users are promised with savious like lightning network etc.

2) BTC is also a ponzi scheme.

In Ponzi schemes "investors" are being paid with money, that come from new joiners. That is also the case with BTC. You can earn either with mining (which is a pyramid) or by selling Your coins to Greater Fool. Although this is well masked with sites, that do BTC brokering and give quite authentic feeling of trading with real "asset", its not the case. Only way, You earn with BTC, is by selling it to another person.

3) BTC is also a pump and dump scheme. For understanding that, You should read more about this kind of frauds and then start to record BTC price change. Every important price change (without exceptions) happens in few minutes, leaving other users outside pumpers a marginal change to react. I know, it sounds rude, but thats how it is.
Median transfer value is several hundred dollars, while few whales drive to to several thousands.

I´m sorry, I dnt have any better news for those who sincerely think, BTC is a phenomenal technology and investment opportunity.

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[boyknightvn]

Thanks for your opinion, but I have the another opinion.
I think BTC is a good future technology because it's feature, but that feature (decentralization) make it trouble when no one can control it lead to many bad organizations or bad guys make a profit from it.
The same thing happens with the market, the whales manipulate the price to get a big profit.
I think cryptocurrency have to develop in a long time to use in the future.
Anyway, this is a new industry and still a lot of risk, so I think we have a safe way to invest in this market.

[Nanagyasi]

I wish to say that your argument is highly biased and skewed. Sometimes I just wish people who present such arguments do so fairly. Talking about btc being a scheme just because it is sold to others before you earn from, then what is gold and all the other things. I have never seen an asset which is not sold before.
What at all do you want us to do with it. Decorate our rooms with it?

[krishnapramod]

Lol, no. I didn't get paid for inviting someone to Bitcoin, maybe I overlooked the ponzi aspect, would have gained from it

Do we have the dividends? Nope. Forks ain't part of Bitcoin. Get your head into decentralization and grasp, understand.

I have seen a lot of echo chamber ethics and I hate to say, you're part of it. Mining is energy consuming, we as a community or energy sector (green) would find the solution.

Don't understand what couple of people say about Bitcoin. Grasp, you have the time.

[dohh]

I wish to say that your argument is highly biased and skewed. Sometimes I just wish people who present such arguments do so fairly. Talking about btc being a scheme just because it is sold to others before you earn from, then what is gold and all the other things. I have never seen an asset which is not sold before.
What at all do you want us to do with it. Decorate our rooms with it?

Now, thats a semi-truth. The crucial difference is, that with BTC You earn ONLY by reselling it, there is no organic cashflow from service itself. Its very different with normal assets.

[dohh]

Lol, no. I didn't get paid for inviting someone to Bitcoin, maybe I overlooked the ponzi aspect, would have gained from it

Do we have the dividends? Nope. Forks ain't part of Bitcoin. Get your head into decentralization and grasp, understand.

I have seen a lot of echo chamber ethics and I hate to say, you're part of it. Mining is energy consuming, we as a community or energy sector (green) would find the solution.

Don't understand what couple of people say about Bitcoin. Grasp, you have the time.

You (as an early enthusiast community) get paid premium for inviting new folks to BTC, by selling air to newcomers.

[Darooghe]

Thanks for your opinion but it's a Bullshit!
Lock the thread ASAP.

[dohh]

Thanks for your opinion but it's a Bullshit!
Lock the thread ASAP.

Go ahead, wont bend the reality.

[davis196]

I wish to say that your argument is highly biased and skewed. Sometimes I just wish people who present such arguments do so fairly. Talking about btc being a scheme just because it is sold to others before you earn from, then what is gold and all the other things. I have never seen an asset which is not sold before.
What at all do you want us to do with it. Decorate our rooms with it?

Now, thats a semi-truth. The crucial difference is, that with BTC You earn ONLY by reselling it, there is no organic cashflow from service itself. Its very different with normal assets.

Bitcoin is not an asset,it's a currency.People,who think bitcoin is an asset take the responsibility for their wrong assumptions.Is bitcoin a ponzi sheme?No ,but bitcoin can be and actually is used as a currency in many ponzi schemes(just like fiat money).You can't blame the ponzi scheme currency for the ponzi scheme itself.
Is bitcoin pump&dump?Yes, and so what?

[dohh]

I wish to say that your argument is highly biased and skewed. Sometimes I just wish people who present such arguments do so fairly. Talking about btc being a scheme just because it is sold to others before you earn from, then what is gold and all the other things. I have never seen an asset which is not sold before.
What at all do you want us to do with it. Decorate our rooms with it?

Now, thats a semi-truth. The crucial difference is, that with BTC You earn ONLY by reselling it, there is no organic cashflow from service itself. Its very different with normal assets.

Bitcoin is not an asset,it's a currency.People,who think bitcoin is an asset take the responsibility for their wrong assumptions.Is bitcoin a ponzi sheme?No ,but bitcoin can be and actually is used as a currency in many ponzy schemes(just like fiat money).You can't blame the ponzi scheme currency for the ponzi scheme itself.
Is bitcoin pump&dump?Yes, and so what?

So what? P&D is monetary fraud, thats what.

[dohh]

I wish to say that your argument is highly biased and skewed. Sometimes I just wish people who present such arguments do so fairly. Talking about btc being a scheme just because it is sold to others before you earn from, then what is gold and all the other things. I have never seen an asset which is not sold before.
What at all do you want us to do with it. Decorate our rooms with it?

Now, thats a semi-truth. The crucial difference is, that with BTC You earn ONLY by reselling it, there is no organic cashflow from service itself. Its very different with normal assets.

Bitcoin is not an asset,it's a currency.People,who think bitcoin is an asset take the responsibility for their wrong assumptions.Is bitcoin a ponzi sheme?No ,but bitcoin can be and actually is used as a currency in many ponzi schemes(just like fiat money).You can't blame the ponzi scheme currency for the ponzi scheme itself.
Is bitcoin pump&dump?Yes, and so what?

BTC is not a currency, it just claims to be one. It wont scale to become a currency and thats precisely what I wrote in OP.

If I call myself Chuck Norris, it wont make me him.

[Cryptotissue]

I'm sad you feel and think this way. You should understand that the market price of bitcoin is determined by the demand and supply of bitcoin in a particular point in time. The drop in the price of bitcoin was meant to happen, because the total number of bitcoin circulating is more than the amount that was circulating in 2017.

[dohh]

I'm sad you feel and think this way. You should understand that the market price of bitcoin is determined by the demand and supply of bitcoin in a particular point in time. The drop in the price of bitcoin was meant to happen, because the total number of bitcoin circulating is more than the amount that was circulating in 2017.

That is not serious argument. So price of gold should drop with every next ounce mined? That would be equal statement.

[xbiv2]

1. BITCOIN HAVE LIMITED QUANTITY, IN DIFFERENCE FROM TULIPS, DOLLARS AND Ethereum
2. GOLD EXACTLY SAME A PYRAMID SCHEME AS A BITCOIN BUT ALREADY ABSORB ALL IN
https://pastebin.com/ZUxTmR99

[krishnapramod]

Lol, no. I didn't get paid for inviting someone to Bitcoin, maybe I overlooked the ponzi aspect, would have gained from it

Do we have the dividends? Nope. Forks ain't part of Bitcoin. Get your head into decentralization and grasp, understand.

I have seen a lot of echo chamber ethics and I hate to say, you're part of it. Mining is energy consuming, we as a community or energy sector (green) would find the solution.

Don't understand what couple of people say about Bitcoin. Grasp, you have the time.

You (as an early enthusiast community) get paid premium for inviting new folks to BTC, by selling air to newcomers.

This is why I avoid posting on this board. You didn't understood what I said. Premium, haha. I could give you reasons to make you understand, but you don't want it.

Tulip mania neither gold brought decentralization with it. Ponder upon it.

[davis196]

I wish to say that your argument is highly biased and skewed. Sometimes I just wish people who present such arguments do so fairly. Talking about btc being a scheme just because it is sold to others before you earn from, then what is gold and all the other things. I have never seen an asset which is not sold before.
What at all do you want us to do with it. Decorate our rooms with it?

Now, thats a semi-truth. The crucial difference is, that with BTC You earn ONLY by reselling it, there is no organic cashflow from service itself. Its very different with normal assets.

Bitcoin is not an asset,it's a currency.People,who think bitcoin is an asset take the responsibility for their wrong assumptions.Is bitcoin a ponzi sheme?No ,but bitcoin can be and actually is used as a currency in many ponzi schemes(just like fiat money).You can't blame the ponzi scheme currency for the ponzi scheme itself.
Is bitcoin pump&dump?Yes, and so what?

BTC is not a currency, it just claims to be one. It wont scale to become a currency and thats precisely what I wrote in OP.

If I call myself Chuck Norris, it wont make me him.

OK,bitcoin is not a currency,it's a meta-currency or "something like a currency".But using btc for trading and purhasing  goods and services is legal in most of the countries,worldwide.
Pump and dump is a monetary fraud.I know it is ,but again....SO WHAT?
Pump and dump schemes can be seen on so many other financial markets.Is anyone punished?Nope.

[ACCOUNTSTRADER]

I dont think like you mate, im listening this kind of shit since 2010.... Bitcoin have a long and strong live, trust me

[wairawein]

It looks like it's not finished, it has long been recognized and traded in some countries, looking in the direction it is a good medium and it will not end there.

[dohh]

Lol, no. I didn't get paid for inviting someone to Bitcoin, maybe I overlooked the ponzi aspect, would have gained from it

Do we have the dividends? Nope. Forks ain't part of Bitcoin. Get your head into decentralization and grasp, understand.

I have seen a lot of echo chamber ethics and I hate to say, you're part of it. Mining is energy consuming, we as a community or energy sector (green) would find the solution.

Don't understand what couple of people say about Bitcoin. Grasp, you have the time.

You (as an early enthusiast community) get paid premium for inviting new folks to BTC, by selling air to newcomers.

This is why I avoid posting on this board. You didn't understood what I said. Premium, haha. I could give you reasons to make you understand, but you don't want it.

Tulip mania neither gold brought decentralization with it. Ponder upon it.

Try to use less colloquial language, English is my 3rd language.
Language of math, however, is universal.

[dohh]

I wish to say that your argument is highly biased and skewed. Sometimes I just wish people who present such arguments do so fairly. Talking about btc being a scheme just because it is sold to others before you earn from, then what is gold and all the other things. I have never seen an asset which is not sold before.
What at all do you want us to do with it. Decorate our rooms with it?

Now, thats a semi-truth. The crucial difference is, that with BTC You earn ONLY by reselling it, there is no organic cashflow from service itself. Its very different with normal assets.

Bitcoin is not an asset,it's a currency.People,who think bitcoin is an asset take the responsibility for their wrong assumptions.Is bitcoin a ponzi sheme?No ,but bitcoin can be and actually is used as a currency in many ponzi schemes(just like fiat money).You can't blame the ponzi scheme currency for the ponzi scheme itself.
Is bitcoin pump&dump?Yes, and so what?

BTC is not a currency, it just claims to be one. It wont scale to become a currency and thats precisely what I wrote in OP.

If I call myself Chuck Norris, it wont make me him.

OK,bitcoin is not a currency,it's a meta-currency or "something like a currency".But using btc for trading and purhasing  goods and services is legal in most of the countries,worldwide.
Pump and dump is a monetary fraud.I know it is ,but again....SO WHAT?
Pump and dump schemes can be seen on so many other financial markets.Is anyone punished?Nope.

Yeah, all clear with You. You know its P@D and You are OK with it. Im not, because people lose money because of that. But thats just difference between me and You.

[Juggy777]

This topic will be probably be locked very soon and I have to repost it to CNC.
In my opinion BTC is a pyramid, a ponzi and a pump and dump scheme at the same time.

I´m sorry, I dnt have any better news for those who sincerely think, BTC is a phenomenal technology and investment opportunity.

I'm surprised you're a junior member out here, and even after spending so much time  on this forum you have learnt nothing. Well it's a decentralised currency, secured and you can't hack it, it works on the economic principles of demand and supply, more demand and less supply leads to price rise. I find your statement dumb, as pump and dump exists in fiat and stock market too. I will suggest you to read more on bitcoins.

[vv181]

All of OP arguments could be easily debunked, but what's the point eh?
There is a little button called "ignore" below the profile section functioned to protect you from insanity and stupidity.

[amishmanish]

Satoshi or the small group of initial miners were not part of some conspiracy to create a pump and dump "scheme". They were simply electronic cash evangelists and privacy enthusiasts who wanted a method to transact value. bitcoin enabled that. Thing is that it caught on faster than anybody expected. Beginning in 2017, a lot of beginners who have no interest / time to understand and explore the underlying technology have joined in.

This has lead to the market being overcome by manipulators, traders and whales. This is not because of some intrinsic property of bitcoin but because of basic human greed. Calling it a pyramid or a pump and dump is little more than another "opinion". It may seem like that to a lot of people and anybody who agrees with this "opinion" is better off getting out NOW.

[worldofcoins]

I don't know what other people think but I know for sure that there are a large proportion who share this exact common concern - the future of Bitcoin.

[dohh]

Satoshi or the small group of initial miners were not part of some conspiracy to create a pump and dump "scheme". They were simply electronic cash evangelists and privacy enthusiasts who wanted a method to transact value. bitcoin enabled that. Thing is that it caught on faster than anybody expected. Beginning in 2017, a lot of beginners who have no interest / time to understand and explore the underlying technology have joined in.

This has lead to the market being overcome by manipulators, traders and whales. This is not because of some intrinsic property of bitcoin but because of basic human greed. Calling it a pyramid or a pump and dump is little more than another "opinion". It may seem like that to a lot of people and anybody who agrees with this "opinion" is better off getting out NOW.

We dont know for sure Satoshi´s initial motivation. But You are right in one thing: not only BTC should be blamed in being scheme. All cryptos are.

[Tapyaks72]

I wish to say that your argument is highly biased and skewed. Sometimes I just wish people who present such arguments do so fairly. Talking about btc being a scheme just because it is sold to others before you earn from, then what is gold and all the other things. I have never seen an asset which is not sold before.
What at all do you want us to do with it. Decorate our rooms with it?

Now, thats a semi-truth. The crucial difference is, that with BTC You earn ONLY by reselling it, there is no organic cashflow from service itself. Its very different with normal assets.

Bitcoin is not an asset,it's a currency.People,who think bitcoin is an asset take the responsibility for their wrong assumptions.Is bitcoin a ponzi sheme?No ,but bitcoin can be and actually is used as a currency in many ponzi schemes(just like fiat money).You can't blame the ponzi scheme currency for the ponzi scheme itself.
Is bitcoin pump&dump?Yes, and so what?

BTC is not a currency, it just claims to be one. It wont scale to become a currency and thats precisely what I wrote in OP.

If I call myself Chuck Norris, it wont make me him.

Being a crypto currency it is a vitual currency  in which there is  a perception that every coin has a value, same as gold even though it is a material think people just value on as a perception, because ever since we are taught that  it is  valuable, but if you carefully analyze it is just the same with bitcoin it is only perception that is valuable.

[CryptoGosu]

I think that Bitcoin is a revolutionary technology and it is honest. That someone is speculating with crypto currency does not mean that Bitcoin is fraud.

[davhek]

Here we go again. Another one that believes that Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme. It is, get away from it!Here we go again. Another one that believes that Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme. It is, get away from it!

[St4yInTh3D4rk]

The bitcoin was created out of thin air but how about the current fiat money system how they made they are also created by the banks but in bitcoin we have a limited amounts only so no one can print more bitcoins when the prices gets expensive even the creator of that can't do.BTC is not a pyramid or ponzi but it has been keep telling by the people since it was created but still the prices managed to increase a lot.

[franky1]

bitcoin is not a ponzi.
EG
a ponzi a scheme that offers something that has no cost to make. no function
whereby the funds from a new person are grabbed by a Mr. Ponzi and then a small part is then given to a holder to keep them from leaving and mr. ponzi is then juggling balls keeping everyone in. while Mr. Ponzi plans to escape with everyones money

there is no Mr. ponzi holding a bag of funds juggling who needs to be bribed with small amounts to stay.
people are actually paid to NOT hold it anymore. they only get paid when they sell
no one is paid to stay

people are not just buying in either people can make goods or services to trade with people that have coin
people are not just selling out. people can trade the coin they have for goods and services others have made

people can work for companies and get paid a salary in bitcoin

bitcoin is not just a unit of measure that is magically created from nothing. it has a cost of production(mining)
miners dont get paid to hold. they get paid when the sell and not hold. and thats it. once they are not holding it. nothing thats it. no extra money to hold. no extra money after selling. all they get is what they sold it for.

bitcoin has a purpose. its also a payment system. that offers features that other payment systems do not.
i would say this though. LN is not a bitcoin feature. LN is a separate network payment system and LN will be used as a payment system for many currencies. do not confuse bitcoin with LN. they are separate.
right now there are some corporation paid devs literally screaming a false narrative that bitcoin is dead and cannot scale. purely so they can code features into bitcoin to stifle bitcoins scaling and utility (blocklimits and fee wars) and to make bitcoin easily work with the SEPARATE LN system. to make LN the payment system and make bitcoin have less utility.

the sooner we get these bad actor devs away from bitcoin. throw them into developing LN and away from bitcoin...the better
and then we can concentrate on re-innovating bitcoin to be the payment system, and thus retain its purpose, function

but even with these devs messing with bitcoins utility and trying to promote the separate payment system. that does not make bitcoin a ponzi.

as for the mining 'pyramid'
a financial scam pyramid. is about one person getting funds from a few people and if those few people get more people then the first person gets more money by just holding on and staying in.
again miners do not get more by holding. they only get paid when they sell. and once they have sold they are out of that coin they sold.

the reason why the coin production decreases is to be the opposite of inflation. and to eventually not make anymore.
thus limit the amount that can be held by people.
financial pyramids and ponzis want more people to enter and hold. but bitcoin has a limit on how many can hold and also doesnt pay people to continue holding.

EG i have held coins for 6 years and i have not got any dividends, interest or bribes to hold. lets say i held Xbtc. it has not magically become more than Xbtc by holding it.

as for the price when people want to sell. well that fluctuates. and its based on the cost to make it and the price people are willing to sell it for and someone else is willing to buy it for. its free market trading/barter. the price goes up or down.
with the cost to make it goes up and that no one will stupidly sell at at a loss. then naturally as with all things. the price goes up. but it can also go down if acquisition costs go down.. or stupidity. but thats the nature of trade/barter

the coins people have, does not have a secret pot of money held back in my their name to give them ongoing or when they sell. there is no mr ponzi promising anything. people have to find someone to hand coins to either on an exchange or in person and they only get what the new person wants to pay and what the seller want to receive. by mutual agreement.
just like anything else bought and sold in the world

[carlisle1]

I dont know why stupid people remains here in crypto while they have no function but a trash spreading this community,i remember someone with the name “zombie” that posting alot about the badness of crypto specially bitcoin but after just a week he died lol.because hes done until now

[trungquoc4622342]

Each person has their own opinion. I respect your opinion but my opinion is different. Bitcoin will never end. Although Bitcoin is pumped in, its current history is still very stable at over $ 6k. The Bitcoin era is an investment opportunity that is probably over, but I think the future will be different.

[dupee419]

Proof or no proof, I got one big question to you and to all the other people who are making hateful statements about BTC, I do think that you have a point with what you have said, unfortunately your statement is clearly biased, you want people to be convinced in leaving BTC, and that you want everyone to know about this, I do respect your statement but I will continue doing BItcoin, and if anyone here has been convinced, you can leave if you want to, no one will stop you except for yourself.

[Legendari]

"Clear pyramid" lol. Ponzi schemes are always centralized and have control in the hands of a person or group of people, but bitcoin is decentralized. Dude, you're writing nonsense.

[Starkick]

It's an interesting opinion, I didn't think of it from that side. As for pyramid I totally agree with you as it is constructed exactly like that. But I don't think that it' a bubble and it will just disappear one day. Lots of people earn good money on it and lots of them are clever enough not to invest everything in it.

[BlockchainGod]

Honestly - your arguments do not have explicit logical justifications and therefore they can not be trusted. I think you're just upset about the price right now.

[aris av]

Everyone has their own opinion about bitcoin. For me, I never thought that bitcoin was nearing an end, bitcoin was still in the adjustment stage, and I was more confident that bitcoin would survive and would be able to increase at a better price.

[Stopir070]

Well done. Turned a good coin into an invest tool with manipulation. These are the realities.  We will observe

[franky1]

i already xplained why its not a ponzi.. now lets try the next one

bitcoin is not a pyramid
EG
a pyramid is recruiting more than one person. and for every sale they make you get a cut of the profits

..
sorry but if i sold 1btc.. we barter on the price. find and agreed price EG $6300 and i sell them my btc.

i dont hand any funds to anyone before me.. because there is no multilevel game.. the person that sold to me is gone. they wont get anything.
i keep my $6300 all to myself and thats it..
the buyer doesnt give me ongoing funds. they are not put on any level. or given any special title like "diamond recruit". they dont have to seek out anyone to make profits, they dont get any ongoing revenue or free vacations

[drm]

Could you explain, how can a market with fair supply and demand be a ponzi scheme?

Fyi this is the definition of a ponzi scheme:

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/; also a Ponzi game) is a form of fraud in which a purported businessman lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors using funds obtained from newer investors.

[xbiv2]

https://pastebin.com/ZUxTmR99
1. BITCOIN HAVE LIMITED QUANTITY, IN DIFFERENCE FROM TULIPS, DOLLARS AND Ethereum
2. GOLD EXACTLY SAME A PYRAMID SCHEME AS A BITCOIN BUT ALREADY ABSORB ALL IN

[dohh]

This topic will be probably be locked very soon and I have to repost it to CNC.
In my opinion BTC is a pyramid, a ponzi and a pump and dump scheme at the same time. Here is why:

1) BTC is a pyramid scheme for 2 reasons.

a) only way to generate new coins, is to mine. And mining is getting 2 times more pointless with every halvening. That is an optimistic estimation and is precise only in condition is number of miners remains constant. If number of miners doubles within one halvening period, mining will get 4 times more pointless!

Satoshi (and small group early miners):  huge reward in return of computing power                        $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
After few halvenings (much bigger group of miners): 2 times less money in return of same task                $$$$$$$$
Now (huge group of miners): many times less money for same task                                                             $

A clear pyramid.

b) Pyramids are defined as schemes that dont involve a real product behind it. BTC supporters claim, they have product. Well, I say, its just a camouflage. Kyäni masked scheme with juice drink, Kairosplaner masked scheme with whole user interface. They were still schemes.

BTC is scheme because it can not be scaled to necessary volumes (or even nearly close) and this information is kept secret. Instead of admitting it, users are promised with savious like lightning network etc.

2) BTC is also a ponzi scheme.

In Ponzi schemes "investors" are being paid with money, that come from new joiners. That is also the case with BTC. You can earn either with mining (which is a pyramid) or by selling Your coins to Greater Fool. Although this is well masked with sites, that do BTC brokering and give quite authentic feeling of trading with real "asset", its not the case. Only way, You earn with BTC, is by selling it to another person.

3) BTC is also a pump and dump scheme. For understanding that, You should read more about this kind of frauds and then start to record BTC price change. Every important price change (without exceptions) happens in few minutes, leaving other users outside pumpers a marginal change to react. I know, it sounds rude, but thats how it is.
Median transfer value is several hundred dollars, while few whales drive to to several thousands.

I´m sorry, I dnt have any better news for those who sincerely think, BTC is a phenomenal technology and investment opportunity.

The pyramid belief is flawed, an entire block of 50btc was worth less than 50 cents when it was mined. There was no proof it was going to actually be worth more and those coins were just trying to beat the energy bill vs mining reward back then just like today. Miners don't know the future, block rewards go down to slowly decrease supply instead of a dramatic cutoff to zero

It doesnt matter 50 cents or 5000 dollars, math remains the same. And You have no certainty with any pyramid, its going to work.

[Blackamoh]

I think that will never happen. bitcoin is so powerful on its throne

[raden1922]

I respect and I also respect your opinion. But I want to say that Bitcoin is a result of intelligence that is designed for a more sophisticated future. for whatever reason I will stick with all these tests.

[cryptoaro]

I don't think so. bitcoins will be never end because as long as decentralize technology. there is good future for bitcoins and other crypto coins.  Even though market get down moment in these days. It will be got up moment this year end.

[amishmanish]

Satoshi or the small group of initial miners were not part of some conspiracy to create a pump and dump "scheme". They were simply electronic cash evangelists and privacy enthusiasts who wanted a method to transact value. bitcoin enabled that. Thing is that it caught on faster than anybody expected. Beginning in 2017, a lot of beginners who have no interest / time to understand and explore the underlying technology have joined in.

This has lead to the market being overcome by manipulators, traders and whales. This is not because of some intrinsic property of bitcoin but because of basic human greed. Calling it a pyramid or a pump and dump is little more than another "opinion". It may seem like that to a lot of people and anybody who agrees with this "opinion" is better off getting out NOW.

We dont know for sure Satoshi´s initial motivation. But You are right in one thing: not only BTC should be blamed in being scheme. All cryptos are.

Like someone pointed out, Satoshi's initial motivations are pretty clear from the whitepaper and his initial posts. If in doubt, read the posts curated at this link.

A generation ago, multi-user time-sharing computer systems had a similar problem. Before strong encryption, users had to rely on password protection to secure their files, placing trust in the system administrator to keep their information private. Privacy could always be overridden by the admin based on his judgment call weighing the principle of privacy against other concerns, or at the behest of his superiors. Then strong encryption became available to the masses, and trust was no longer required. Data could be secured in a way that was physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter what.

It's time we had the same thing for money. With e-currency based on cryptographic proof, without the need to trust a third party middleman, money can be secure and transactions effortless.

These days it is the norm, and one of the failings of internet, that anybody can shit on anybody. This is irrespective of the level of competence and effort gone into the first person's work. So of course, your criticism, though invalid, has its own place.

[antonhuda]

Bitcoin is still growing well and will continue to increase, optimistically I will keep abreast of the development of bitcoin.
With a variety of positive responses to developed countries, bitcoin is able to overwhelm its popularity.

[rafi035]

This topic will be probably be locked very soon and I have to repost it to CNC.
In my opinion BTC is a pyramid, a ponzi and a pump and dump scheme at the same time. Here is why:

1) BTC is a pyramid scheme for 2 reasons.

a) only way to generate new coins, is to mine. And mining is getting 2 times more pointless with every halvening. That is an optimistic estimation and is precise only in condition is number of miners remains constant. If number of miners doubles within one halvening period, mining will get 4 times more pointless!

Satoshi (and small group early miners):  huge reward in return of computing power                        $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
After few halvenings (much bigger group of miners): 2 times less money in return of same task                $$$$$$$$
Now (huge group of miners): many times less money for same task                                                             $

A clear pyramid.

b) Pyramids are defined as schemes that dont involve a real product behind it. BTC supporters claim, they have product. Well, I say, its just a camouflage. Kyäni masked scheme with juice drink, Kairosplaner masked scheme with whole user interface. They were still schemes.

BTC is scheme because it can not be scaled to necessary volumes (or even nearly close) and this information is kept secret. Instead of admitting it, users are promised with savious like lightning network etc.

2) BTC is also a ponzi scheme.

In Ponzi schemes "investors" are being paid with money, that come from new joiners. That is also the case with BTC. You can earn either with mining (which is a pyramid) or by selling Your coins to Greater Fool. Although this is well masked with sites, that do BTC brokering and give quite authentic feeling of trading with real "asset", its not the case. Only way, You earn with BTC, is by selling it to another person.

3) BTC is also a pump and dump scheme. For understanding that, You should read more about this kind of frauds and then start to record BTC price change. Every important price change (without exceptions) happens in few minutes, leaving other users outside pumpers a marginal change to react. I know, it sounds rude, but thats how it is.
Median transfer value is several hundred dollars, while few whales drive to to several thousands.

I´m sorry, I dnt have any better news for those who sincerely think, BTC is a phenomenal technology and investment opportunity.

I often hear news or information that always proclaims that bitcoin and other currencies are dying and dying, I think the news I often hear from a few years ago, but until now bitcoin can still be accessed and invested

[dohh]

Could you explain, how can a market with fair supply and demand be a ponzi scheme?

Fyi this is the definition of a ponzi scheme:

A Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒnzi/; also a Ponzi game) is a form of fraud in which a purported businessman lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors using funds obtained from newer investors.

There is no FAIR supply and demand. There is a ponzi story and market, that is heavily saturated with p&d. Anyone, who looks at price change patterns, can understand, that most significant changes are not organic, but manipulated.

Yes, BTC is not simple form of ponzi, because luring money is done not by one person, but decentralized. And "paying early investors" in BTC means cashing in early easy coins, where there was very few miners, or what do You think, where the whales appeared from?

[dohh]

Satoshi or the small group of initial miners were not part of some conspiracy to create a pump and dump "scheme". They were simply electronic cash evangelists and privacy enthusiasts who wanted a method to transact value. bitcoin enabled that. Thing is that it caught on faster than anybody expected. Beginning in 2017, a lot of beginners who have no interest / time to understand and explore the underlying technology have joined in.

This has lead to the market being overcome by manipulators, traders and whales. This is not because of some intrinsic property of bitcoin but because of basic human greed. Calling it a pyramid or a pump and dump is little more than another "opinion". It may seem like that to a lot of people and anybody who agrees with this "opinion" is better off getting out NOW.

We dont know for sure Satoshi´s initial motivation. But You are right in one thing: not only BTC should be blamed in being scheme. All cryptos are.

Like someone pointed out, Satoshi's initial motivations are pretty clear from the whitepaper and his initial posts. If in doubt, read the posts curated at this link.

May I please beg for some source criticism? You use Satoshi´s white paper to back up an argument, his motivations were all good?

[cryptofeel]

Well you have 'some' proofs as that is how you think it is however, I will take you on the issue of the Ponzi scheme. A ponzi scheme is a triangular or pyramidal flow from the TOP to the BOTTOM (and not the way you pointed it) It must be also understood that the idea of ponzi is to take from one person and pay the peple upward. this is NOT the case with bitcoin as no one has asked me to pay so that they can pay the people before me and also asking those underneath me to pay money before I can be paid. Bitcoin started over 9years ago and I am not aware of a ponzi that has last that long not even the dot.com bubble. so btc is Not a scam!

[Captain_Planet]

Seems OP belongs to the pentagon. Man its not a pyramid scheme otherwise it wold have shut down in few months after its emergence.

[dohh]

Well you have 'some' proofs as that is how you think it is however, I will take you on the issue of the Ponzi scheme. A ponzi scheme is a triangular or pyramidal flow from the TOP to the BOTTOM (and not the way you pointed it) It must be also understood that the idea of ponzi is to take from one person and pay the peple upward. this is NOT the case with bitcoin as no one has asked me to pay so that they can pay the people before me and also asking those underneath me to pay money before I can be paid. Bitcoin started over 9years ago and I am not aware of a ponzi that has last that long not even the dot.com bubble. so btc is Not a scam!

I agree, its not a typical ponzi, because people are lured in decentralized, rather than by few early members. But there is a very strong bottom-->top flow mechanism, if You look at the whole picture. Satoshi and early members quaranteed himself huge amount of BTC for very little effort. With every halvening FOR THE SAME task reward is halved. Thats well pyramidal.

And BTC maybe have started 9 years ago indeed, I doubt archidects had an idea, how popular it will become. However! When You look at BTC prices in history, the boom started just 2 years ago. Which is average life time of well designed scheme. BTC is a very well designed scheme, thats why I predict it lasts a bit more, but wont see year 2020.

[dohh]

Seems OP belongs to the pentagon. Man its not a pyramid scheme otherwise it wold have shut down in few months after its emergence.

No unfortunately not. Governments suck at detecting schemes. Look for example Kairosplanet "hard disc rental" project. Its a very clear scheme, right? It is still running and collecting money in many countries, only few have officially banned it.

https://kairosplanetasia.com/

[qiman]

FIAT currency is a bigger ponzi because there is unlimited supply. Bitcoin has a limited totally supply, period. I do not understand where on earth you got to these assumptions. I would feel safer long term owning good cryptos and Bitcoin than seeing my money devalue in a bank year in year out. Yes, I agree, BTC is very volatile, as I saw my portfolio go down a lot in value this year in a bear market, but I do believe long term Bitcoin will provide a lot of value for investors and for the technology and innovation side.

[Ronaldcoin2017]

Bitcoin will never ever end, I believe that bitcoin will soon rise, so we really need to wait for its rise to avoid lossing. Selling bitcoin todayvus a great loss due to its huge dip. Not only bitcoin but also altcoin and many other coins in crypto feild. All I can say is that we don't need to be afraid of the continuous dropping of by price because those are a normal thing in crypto.

[maxreish]

I've been heard and read this word for a long time ago, that the bitcoin is nearly dead. But until now bitcoin still exists. Suddenly this words entered into my mind, "people who say, that the bitcoin is nearly dead is a victim of the so-called FAKE/FALSE news". LOL.

[dohh]

I've been heard and read this word for a long time ago, that the bitcoin is nearly dead. But until now bitcoin still exists. Suddenly this words entered into my mind, "people who say, that the bitcoin is nearly dead is a victim of the so-called FAKE/FALSE news". LOL.

BTC is not closing down overnight. It has ended already for those, who paid 20k. More victims will follow.

[RokokGudangGaram]

This topic will be probably be locked very soon and I have to repost it to CNC.
In my opinion BTC is a pyramid, a ponzi and a pump and dump scheme at the same time. Here is why:

1) BTC is a pyramid scheme for 2 reasons.

a) only way to generate new coins, is to mine. And mining is getting 2 times more pointless with every halvening. That is an optimistic estimation and is precise only in condition is number of miners remains constant. If number of miners doubles within one halvening period, mining will get 4 times more pointless!

Satoshi (and small group early miners):  huge reward in return of computing power                        $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
After few halvenings (much bigger group of miners): 2 times less money in return of same task                $$$$$$$$
Now (huge group of miners): many times less money for same task                                                             $

A clear pyramid.

b) Pyramids are defined as schemes that dont involve a real product behind it. BTC supporters claim, they have product. Well, I say, its just a camouflage. Kyäni masked scheme with juice drink, Kairosplaner masked scheme with whole user interface. They were still schemes.

BTC is scheme because it can not be scaled to necessary volumes (or even nearly close) and this information is kept secret. Instead of admitting it, users are promised with savious like lightning network etc.

2) BTC is also a ponzi scheme.

In Ponzi schemes "investors" are being paid with money, that come from new joiners. That is also the case with BTC. You can earn either with mining (which is a pyramid) or by selling Your coins to Greater Fool. Although this is well masked with sites, that do BTC brokering and give quite authentic feeling of trading with real "asset", its not the case. Only way, You earn with BTC, is by selling it to another person.

3) BTC is also a pump and dump scheme. For understanding that, You should read more about this kind of frauds and then start to record BTC price change. Every important price change (without exceptions) happens in few minutes, leaving other users outside pumpers a marginal change to react. I know, it sounds rude, but thats how it is.
Median transfer value is several hundred dollars, while few whales drive to to several thousands.

I´m sorry, I dnt have any better news for those who sincerely think, BTC is a phenomenal technology and investment opportunity.

I often hear news or information that always proclaims that bitcoin and other currencies are dying and dying, I think the news I often hear from a few years ago, but until now bitcoin can still be accessed and invested

because bitcoin is indeed a very promising place for investment from now until now, that's why from year to year bitcoin more and more investors enter even though prices always experience a prolonged decline. but with the price reduction it will return to its price even though it takes a long time

[amishmanish]

Like someone pointed out, Satoshi's initial motivations are pretty clear from the whitepaper and his initial posts. If in doubt, read the posts curated at this link.

May I please beg for some source criticism? You use Satoshi´s white paper to back up an argument, his motivations were all good?

Sorry but I think you did not get my point. I quoted in my reply part of the post where Satoshi tells what his motivations are. Just to be sure, I'll quote the sentence again.

It's time we had the same thing for money. With e-currency based on cryptographic proof, without the need to trust a third party middleman, money can be secure and transactions effortless.

Money that is free from third-party control. Is that not a good enough motivation according to you? For me and for those who actually care about the underlying ideals, this is a settled issue. Trying to implicate otherwise through rhetoric is just repetition of the same old, tiring agenda.

[dohh]

Like someone pointed out, Satoshi's initial motivations are pretty clear from the whitepaper and his initial posts. If in doubt, read the posts curated at this link.

May I please beg for some source criticism? You use Satoshi´s white paper to back up an argument, his motivations were all good?

Sorry but I think you did not get my point. I quoted in my reply part of the post where Satoshi tells what his motivations are. Just to be sure, I'll quote the sentence again.

It's time we had the same thing for money. With e-currency based on cryptographic proof, without the need to trust a third party middleman, money can be secure and transactions effortless.

Money that is free from third-party control. Is that not a good enough motivation according to you? For me and for those who actually care about the underlying ideals, this is a settled issue. Trying to implicate otherwise through rhetoric is just repetition of the same old, tiring agenda.

Thanks. I did understand. I just said, that I think its bullshit.

Idea is motivating, but so is hard disc rental (known Kairosplanet scam). Mathematically and logically decentralized blockchain cryptocurrency is quite impossible. I say "quite", because solution would be very uneffective. Now You argue, that BTC has done it already. It hasnt. I has told bubbles, bubbles, bubbles... BTC scalability issues are NOT SOLVABLE in this method. It is just not possible to pass ALL INFORMATION TO ALL PARTICIPANTS, when amount of both, information and participants is evergrowing exponentially.

BTC is a scam, illustrated with beautyful words of promising technologies. There will not be (working) lightning network. If it will, its just another level of scamming and it would probably require to deposit Your coins somewhere. And thats not decentralized again.

Telling You one more time: what BTC is meant to be doing, is impossible.

[sngwinner]

Having followed this thread, I just realized that you have a fixed mind and you didn't actually create this thread to invite fair arguments. It is better we all stick to what we individually believe in crypto. If you think Btc is not worth it, just exit and leave it for those who believe in this technology

[dohh]

Having followed this thread, I just realized that you have a fixed mind and you didn't actually create this thread to invite fair arguments. It is better we all stick to what we individually believe in crypto. If you think Btc is not worth it, just exit and leave it for those who believe in this technology

yea, everybody has his own opinion.

If You had an impression, my mind is fixed, thats not true. Just I have to be concrete as I am largely outnumbered here.

You guys keep telling me widely accepted version, of how things are. Im challenging it, because I dont think its true.

[stayeduptolate]

This topic will be probably be locked very soon and I have to repost it to CNC.
In my opinion BTC is a pyramid, a ponzi and a pump and dump scheme at the same time. Here is why:

1) BTC is a pyramid scheme for 2 reasons.

a) only way to generate new coins, is to mine. And mining is getting 2 times more pointless with every halvening. That is an optimistic estimation and is precise only in condition is number of miners remains constant. If number of miners doubles within one halvening period, mining will get 4 times more pointless!

Satoshi (and small group early miners):  huge reward in return of computing power                        $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
After few halvenings (much bigger group of miners): 2 times less money in return of same task                $$$$$$$$
Now (huge group of miners): many times less money for same task                                                             $

A clear pyramid.

b) Pyramids are defined as schemes that dont involve a real product behind it. BTC supporters claim, they have product. Well, I say, its just a camouflage. Kyäni masked scheme with juice drink, Kairosplaner masked scheme with whole user interface. They were still schemes.

BTC is scheme because it can not be scaled to necessary volumes (or even nearly close) and this information is kept secret. Instead of admitting it, users are promised with savious like lightning network etc.

2) BTC is also a ponzi scheme.

In Ponzi schemes "investors" are being paid with money, that come from new joiners. That is also the case with BTC. You can earn either with mining (which is a pyramid) or by selling Your coins to Greater Fool. Although this is well masked with sites, that do BTC brokering and give quite authentic feeling of trading with real "asset", its not the case. Only way, You earn with BTC, is by selling it to another person.

3) BTC is also a pump and dump scheme. For understanding that, You should read more about this kind of frauds and then start to record BTC price change. Every important price change (without exceptions) happens in few minutes, leaving other users outside pumpers a marginal change to react. I know, it sounds rude, but thats how it is.
Median transfer value is several hundred dollars, while few whales drive to to several thousands.

I´m sorry, I dnt have any better news for those who sincerely think, BTC is a phenomenal technology and investment opportunity.

I don’t even want to listen these kind of statements or I would say that I got fed after listening the same statement every time as I know this thing very well that these all are rumours as bitcoin itself is a very huge and potentiating crypto currency and that is why is on the top of all the crypto currencies and moreover is very sustainable and very profitable investment and thus has provided employment to millions of people around the world and I think morons are those people who consider bitcoin’s end is near.

[West0813]

Everyone has different views about bitcoin. And if thats your view then so be it. But why there are still so many investors that invest in bitcoin if  its a scam or ponzi scheme?

[StephKram]

"b) Pyramids are defined as schemes that dont involve a real product behind it. BTC supporters claim, they have product. Well, I say, its just a camouflage. Kyäni masked scheme with juice drink, Kairosplaner masked scheme with whole user interface. They were still schemes."

I disagree.  I believe there is a real product as I use it to pay for goods and services.  I have one merchant I use in China while I'm in Canada.  I can trasfer this payment with public proof and last time a .03 cent fee.  I would say there is one hell of a product right there. 

[jcarlo]

Bitcoin is not like multi level marketing. Bitcoin is a buble because bitcoin back up by secure network. If bitcoin is pyramid scheme, why goldman sachs buying poloniex and have plan to open bitcoin trading investment. This issue always repeated for years but bitcoin always survive and growing more bigger

[dohh]

"b) Pyramids are defined as schemes that dont involve a real product behind it. BTC supporters claim, they have product. Well, I say, its just a camouflage. Kyäni masked scheme with juice drink, Kairosplaner masked scheme with whole user interface. They were still schemes."

I disagree.  I believe there is a real product as I use it to pay for goods and services.  I have one merchant I use in China while I'm in Canada.  I can trasfer this payment with public proof and last time a .03 cent fee.  I would say there is one hell of a product right there. 

I know. Good pyramids camouflage absence of product very well. Or they use "product", that is "working" in limited way. For example, if BTC designers know, that BTC can not be scaled in amounts, that would be necessary for BTC to act like currency, it makes BTC actually a scheme.

I know, that some dealers accept BTC, because they can cash it in. It doesnt make BTC less scheme.

[dohh]

Bitcoin is not like multi level marketing. Bitcoin is a buble because bitcoin back up by secure network. If bitcoin is pyramid scheme, why goldman sachs buying poloniex and have plan to open bitcoin trading investment. This issue always repeated for years but bitcoin always survive and growing more bigger

BTC is not MLM, it has compounds of different schemes. Its a p&d scheme, with elements of ponzi and pyramid.

Why Goldman has not opened trading yet? It would be a big business for them. They suspect its a scheme. No other reason.

[amishmanish]

Idea is motivating, but so is hard disc rental (known Kairosplanet scam). Mathematically and logically decentralized blockchain cryptocurrency is quite impossible. I say "quite", because solution would be very uneffective. Now You argue, that BTC has done it already. It hasnt. I has told bubbles, bubbles, bubbles... BTC scalability issues are NOT SOLVABLE in this method. It is just not possible to pass ALL INFORMATION TO ALL PARTICIPANTS, when amount of both, information and participants is evergrowing exponentially.

There is nothing new in saying that decentralization is hard. It is known for decades now and has been a topic of discussion a million times here. You somehow want to blame Satoshi for being the mastermind of an evil plan (that i feel has cost you some money at the ATH). The direct and simpler way of looking at it is to realize that the quest for a peer-to-peer electronic cash system is older than bitcoin. All previous implementations needed a central authority. Bitcoin solved the problem of trust without relying on a central party through its PoW consensus mechanism. That in itself is the culmination of years of work in cryptography and electronic cash systems.

The quest for peer-to-peer electronic cash is not just a technical one but also a socio-economic one. The adoption of bitcoin weakens the control banks and governments have over those who choose to use it. For a long time now, these technical achievements and socio-economic ideals have drowned in the spam posting.

BTC is a scam, illustrated with beautyful words of promising technologies. There will not be (working) lightning network. If it will, its just another level of scamming and it would probably require to deposit Your coins somewhere. And thats not decentralized again.

Telling You one more time: what BTC is meant to be doing, is impossible.

Lightning Network already works, though it is not for everyone yet. bitcoin as a technology is here and has been tested robustly. The debate over mining centralization, privacy features continues as healthily as ever. LN will arrive too and then it will be ready for mass adoption. Whether people wish to use it or not will be up to them. Saying that it is an "intentional scam" is just one of those crazy-pot conspiracy theories. Frustrated, naysaying rants like this one are just one of the defining phenomena of a prolonged bear market.

[Geemy]

It 's better to leave this field because it' s not trustworthy than many false news

[Legendari]

This is not proof - this is the point of view of one person who does not like crypto. I don't see any evidence of your judgment, so it's empty.

[MainIbem]

There is the paradox of the message and the messenger. Research shows that most times, the focus is put on the messenger than the message.

Your opinion just remind me of that paradox.
Bitcoin is the messenger and blockchain technology is the message. You have left the message and focus on the messenger. And it is very easy to form the wrong conclusion when you have a misplaced focus.

A whole lot of people are in this misplaced focus about bitcoin.

[shivansps]

You didn't understand what is bitcoin. If you say it is ponzi scheme then what you think about USD as a currency? Some group of people can easily order to their own Reserve Fund to print any amount of USD anytime, thus creating huge inflation in many countries. Huh?

I'm not going to teach you, but if you think it is ponzi and pyramid just leave this space and then come back to buy bitcoin when it hits new ATH.

[Romeotom]

Responsibility is the real that bitcoin digital currency,but your opinion is good think.your proof interested but I don't know how many trust this article. Actually I read it many many false news about bitcoin to the some social media,youtube,facebook,and Twitter.

[Matthewlee]

Selling bitcoin is a great loss. All I can say is that we do not need to fear constant price cuts because that is a normal thing in cryptography. But so far bitcoin still exists. After following this topic, I just realized that you have a fixed mind and you have not really created this thread to invite fair arguments. If you think Btc is not worth it, just leave it and leave it to those who believe in this technology

[FlightyPouch]

Everyone has different views about bitcoin. And if thats your view then so be it. But why there are still so many investors that invest in bitcoin if  its a scam or ponzi scheme?

The way Bitcoin price moves depends on the investors of that certain crypto currency since the price of Bitcoin follows that law of the Demand and Supply, the higher the Demand, the higher the price of it and if that demand get lower, the price decreases and that is where the investors go in to invest again making an effect to increase it up again, the cycle goes on and I guess that is the reason why there are a lot of investors of Bitcoin and that is also my view the reason why Bitcoin will continue to push on making new records of ATHs.

[killat]

BTC is far from the end, but most people who bought BTC don't even know what it is used for. They thought it was a get-rich-quick scheme and jumped into the bandwagon without knowing shit.

What results is too much supply and low demand, and now the ratio is slowly scaling down until demand increases and supply goes back down from people who have no idea what BTC, or rather cryptocurrency really is.