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Author Topic: sMerit participants – a worrying descending trend (!/?)  (Read 1684 times)
coinlocket$
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September 16, 2018, 03:11:00 PM
Last edit: September 16, 2018, 07:27:23 PM by coinlocket$
 #41

Less than 1% of all 2 million+ accounts has ever sent or received merit. Theymos said about 600k sMerit was airdropped, and currently just over 200k has been sent. This partially came from sources, and generated another 100k+ sMerit.

My guess, since must users only spam for earning money, is that most users don't care about sending it to quality posts. Even worse: I'm pretty sure they don't even bother reading anything in their click farms.

I presume that most of the merits have been given out to people are for people who:
-  are not interested in the system
-  are now inactive
-  want to sell them
-  pass them on to the alt
-  are banned
- want to bring merit to the grave.


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DdmrDdmr
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September 16, 2018, 03:55:17 PM
 #42

I am really curios how did you get datas from the smerits being given or spread in the forum? <...>
The main driver is the Merit File that is published every Friday, with the Merit TXs for the last 120 days (https://bitcointalk.org/merit.txt.xz). Since only 120 days are provided, some of us (@LoyceV, @Piggy, @DdmrDdmr, @Vod, @coinlocket$ at least) have created our own cumulative databases and thus have the whole set of historical sMerit TXs.
Data in the file is limited, so anything not in the file needs to be derived from the pages on the forum itself, using the appropriate extraction tool… then add quite a bit of time and thought to the equation and voilà/hey presto!

suchmoon
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September 16, 2018, 06:10:12 PM
 #43

suchmoon is the most generous.. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;stats=topsend
This source seems to be awarding all 4s, previously all 7s and before that all 5s..

I was on vacation for nearly 2 weeks. So I figured it's better to send out more merits to catch up instead of letting them decay, hence the temporary bump to 7. In the long run the formula is like this:

merits_per_post = smerits_available_per_month / 30 / meritorious_posts_I_can_reasonably_find_each_day

I'm not worried about a grading scale. Everyone gets merits_per_post other than a few exceptionally brilliant posts that I may merit with 10 or 15. In the long run the cream will rise to the top. Outstanding members will get merited more times and will accumulate more merits.

I still believe Merit is supposed to be earned from as many different users and for as many different posts as possible. It doesn't feel right to bump a Newbie to Member-levels if he makes one decent post.

I have slightly different approach. I'm meriting posts, not users, and I'm trying to ignore the ranks. I may take a look at poster's history occasionally (mostly to check for other meritorious posts) but that's about it. Because in the long run - see above.

LoyceV
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September 16, 2018, 06:16:24 PM
 #44

What about the accounts that are inactive from before the system was implemented? There are hundreds or thousands of accounts that are not being used anymore. Some because the people using them have left the forum, and most of them because they had been red tagged and left unused after that by the signature spammers. All of those accounts must have also gotten sMerits from the airdrop, but since they have not been used, the sMerits are frozen within those accounts. I think those frozen sMerits would probably have made a difference assuming the inactive accounts would be quite large in number.
The airdropped amount of sMerit depended on the activity gained in the previous year. Especially the lower ranks got small amounts, even if they were active. See theymos' formula.

privedvelosiped
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September 16, 2018, 09:53:03 PM
Merited by alp (1)
 #45

As always, your article only makes me move forward. But I have a question for the participants of the Legend and Heroes.
Why do I notice that you reward each other with merit, Sometimes seniors. Why don't you notice the good authors with the status of Member or Junior member.
Here now I read 3 pages and noticed that 80% of all merit, has put the heroes and legends to each other. It's unfair.
I not so long ago on this, forum, but I try to help other members. Answering their questions. But alas, the merit were not added.
TeQuiero
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September 17, 2018, 01:32:43 AM
 #46

Why do I notice that you reward each other with merit, Sometimes seniors. Why don't you notice the good authors with the status of Member or Junior member.
There's a sad fact that high ranked members come up with high quality post much more frequent than low ranked. Yet there's still good post from Newbie or Jr members but it's hidden under a deluge of junk posts. That's why topic like this showed up, but to be honest, results were not very positive. 

I not so long ago on this, forum, but I try to help other members. Answering their questions. But alas, the merit were not added.
You're involved too much in Altcoin Discussion, which is the favorite board of those Newbie/Jr spammers and hence is not regular destination of merit sources. Try other some more serious boards.

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The Pharmacist
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September 17, 2018, 01:56:10 AM
 #47

As always, your article only makes me move forward. But I have a question for the participants of the Legend and Heroes.
Why do I notice that you reward each other with merit, Sometimes seniors. Why don't you notice the good authors with the status of Member or Junior member.
Here now I read 3 pages and noticed that 80% of all merit, has put the heroes and legends to each other. It's unfair.
I not so long ago on this, forum, but I try to help other members. Answering their questions. But alas, the merit were not added.
In your case, I think it's completely fair that you haven't gotten your posts merited, since most of them are short, generic posts written in what's obviously not your first language.  Why in the world would you think any of your posts stand out from the rest of the garbage in sections like Economics?  Answer:  they don't.  Not at all.

Also I don't even think your post above deserved the merit it got, since it was sloppily written and was basically whining about what you perceived as unfairness.  The fact is that the posts that got merited in this thread were well-written and constructive.  Yours, from what I've seen, are generally not.  None of that has to do with rank. 

Look at the merit I've given out and you'll see that I do merit ranks lower than Legendary all the time--the very members who need merit to rank up.  Stop complaining about the system and look inward.


TomCrypto
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September 17, 2018, 06:05:13 AM
Last edit: September 17, 2018, 06:55:57 AM by TomCrypto
 #48

With help from DdmrDdmr, I just added 36 new merit sources, which should help newbies achieve the requirement. But if you're incapable of posting anything worthwhile, then you will never rank up, and you shouldn't: this isn't the forum for you.

Your work on data that you presented on different posts seems to have been fruitful and have been heard by Theymos it's seems!

Good job OP, I am eager to see those decreasing curves invert in the future with the addition of 36 new sources
privedvelosiped
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September 17, 2018, 06:51:25 AM
 #49

Quote
I think it's completely fair that you haven't gotten your posts merited, since most of them are short, generic posts written in what's obviously not your first language.
I know my English is lame, but that doesn't say I'm not trying to get better and write better and benefit other people on this forum.

Quote
Why in the world would you think any of your posts stand out from the rest of the garbage in sections like Economics?  Answer:  they don't.  Not at all.
You say my posts are short. I don't write posts shorter than 100 characters (very very rarely)
In what section write, to was useful bitcointalk? Prompt I will be very grateful to you. I really want to benefit the forum and raise your rank. I'm not complaining, I want to be useful, and be seen among the bitcointalk community (You and another hero and legend)

Quote
Look at the merit I've given out and you'll see that I do merit ranks lower than Legendary all the time--the very members who need merit to rank up.  Stop complaining about the system and look inward.
I'm not only in this thread said that legends and heroes are each other's reward merit.
This observation is not one day
LoyceV
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September 17, 2018, 08:21:48 AM
Merited by Foxpup (2)
 #50

You say my posts are short. I don't write posts shorter than 100 characters (very very rarely)
Good posts don't have to be long.

adekogbe
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September 17, 2018, 10:35:14 AM
 #51

Just like several new channels reporting the same story, you cannot disregard an authentic news from a channel because someone else reported it first.

The reality is, there cannot be only new and unique comments on every post, however some users will add  a better insight as compared to others. But it is not all of them that get rewarded with stakes.

One thing I noticed however is, top members from Senior members, hero, legendary etc are more open to giving each other merits than they are to junior members and members.
You say my posts are short. I don't write posts shorter than 100 characters (very very rarely)
Good posts don't have to be long.
Very true, a post doesn't have to be long before it can be considered to add value

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September 17, 2018, 11:59:43 AM
Merited by dogtana (1)
 #52

Just like several new channels reporting the same story, you cannot disregard an authentic news from a channel because someone else reported it first.

The reality is, there cannot be only new and unique comments on every post, however some users will add  a better insight as compared to others. But it is not all of them that get rewarded with stakes.

One thing I noticed however is, top members from Senior members, hero, legendary etc are more open to giving each other merits than they are to junior members and members.
You say my posts are short. I don't write posts shorter than 100 characters (very very rarely)
Good posts don't have to be long.
Very true, a post doesn't have to be long before it can be considered to add value

You really made a point, new people join bitcointalk on a daily basis and they are been faced with one challenge or the other, most of them bring it here on bitcointalk to seek the opinion of the members and i think credits should be given to people who attended to them because the best way to get cryptos to main stream is by educating more people about the crypto space. I think the length of a post doesn't matter but the message it is trying to pass it really what matters. Some people might not be good to created a long quality post but they might be good in helping and attending to people facing one challenge or another, and credit should be given to such people.

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Balinsayaw
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September 17, 2018, 02:51:41 PM
 #53

I think the descending trend is normal. Every merit has a 0.5 sMerit.
 Therefore merits will decrease as time goes by.
Unless the source of merits could compensate the decayed merits, then the graph is conclusive that few are practicing of merits giving.
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September 17, 2018, 05:36:05 PM
Merited by bones261 (2)
 #54

With the new rules today I want to follow up in this thread about our recent discussion of the matter..

New conditions of the merit system have been implemented similar to what has been suggested by many in this thread and I will be especially interested in continuing to follow the data presented in the OP of this thread as it continues to develop, to see what effect it has..

And I found this, check it out..
You are now a merit source, or if you were already a merit source, your monthly source merit was increased.

I recommend:
 - If a newbie posts something that could be even called good, then give them 1 merit. It doesn't need to be a great post.
 - It's best to use all of your source merit. If you don't naturally do so, try giving people more merit per post on average. If you don't send your source merit, then nobody gets it, but if you do send it, then the recipient can pass half of it on.
 
Thanks!

It seems Theymos is onboard with a broad variety of our opinions on the matter..

The most popular opinion I believe was more sources, and it has been done..
Their has been a lot of talk about those with a thousand posts and not a single merit, and offence against such has been taken..

In Theymos's message he iterates that even a standard acceptable post is worthy of a single merit while not having to be overly extravagant or incredibly beneficial. Really, how knowledgeable and capable of being extremely beneficial would you expect a Jr. through even full member to be? Everyone doesn't have to be a nullius..

The 2nd recommendation from Theymos basically outlines another point some of us have been making, as to the scaling of how much merit means how much, he recommends possibly increasing your number in attempt to get more merit flowing in the economy..

Even beyond what I said earlier, he recommends to use ALL of your merit, as if he means for the amount of source merit he has given to be input into the economy to flow, possibly as if it's a calculated amount that he wants to get out there but that is speculation..

Theymos agrees with almost all of us well intentioned commenters so maybe this will sooth a lot of the "Theymos doesn't listen to us/care about us" crowd..

Lets watch the topic data of the OP develop from here while hoping and working for the best..

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September 17, 2018, 06:26:25 PM
 #55

5. The new positions of the forum participants are often simply not assessed as can be seen, at least these posts and worthy of merit, on the contrary, we have increasingly practiced the transfer of merit from high grade to high because people know each other and he wrote "Normal" post. In the same situation, the same position is written with the novice or younger participant just will not appreciate.
As always, your article only makes me move forward. But I have a question for the participants of the Legend and Heroes.
Why do I notice that you reward each other with merit, Sometimes seniors. Why don't you notice the good authors with the status of Member or Junior member.
Here now I read 3 pages and noticed that 80% of all merit, has put the heroes and legends to each other. It's unfair.
I not so long ago on this, forum, but I try to help other members. Answering their questions. But alas, the merit were not added.
What merits are largely transferred from a senior member of the senior even if the post is worth notice many users and I believe it is also not fair. Your top-down thread is directly connected with this situation, because old users, as bad as it sounds, simply do not want to transfer their services to new forum participants because they turn into competitors. And the increase in the number of senior members also reduces profits in the subscription campaign, though all shout that all newcomers are only because of the money.

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September 17, 2018, 07:21:45 PM
Last edit: November 29, 2020, 11:32:04 PM by suchmoon
 #56

Everyone gets merits_per_post

Damn, LoyceV broke my nice streak of 4s...

Loading...
Edited 2020-11-29 to fix a broken image

Which brings up an interesting dilemma - is it ok to send merits to LoyceMobile after this?

DdmrDdmr
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September 17, 2018, 07:54:22 PM
Merited by suchmoon (4)
 #57

<...>
Monitoring the results of the changes is a must. I've given it some thought on what needs to be adapted in the Merit Dashboard and the Cumulative Database from where I derive all my stuff, and for now I've listed:

- Snapshot of Jr. Members (last Friday's version will have to do), to see how many/who has been demoted (I show a demoted tab on the Merit Dashboard, so it will fit in there).

- Up-ranked from Newbie to Jr. Member (or any other rank). This has some twists, but I think I've got the idea of how to track this.

- Copper Members may increase noticeably. Maybe I should try to virtualize the rank for copper members and add an attribute that say copper yes/no (i.e. a Copper Member with 10 Merits would be a Member really, with a copper attribute=’yes’). The idea would be to treat copper members as regular ranks, and not a single group as I do now.

- and a few more…

Of course, we may also expect to get more volume of data, so things may take a little longer. In summary, I’m on it …

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September 17, 2018, 08:22:53 PM
 #58

Which brings up an interesting dilemma - is it ok to send merits to LoyceMobile after this?
I don't think so.
You might forget that you already merited him for a specific post and thereby give him double the credit he deserves Shocked

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September 23, 2018, 02:35:35 PM
 #59

I think the trends you have highlighted in the graphs of the OP show that what is a potentially great system aimed to promote sensible and constructive participation amongst the members is not really performing as expected. I can fully appreciate you want to cut out inane comments such as "Great project", "this will moon", etc etc and the concept is one that we should all embrace but the practical application of the merit system does not seem to be working.

The ability to distribute smerit is in very few hands and at the end of the day I am sure those people can often feel over-obligated to be awarding merit, it's not unlike a foreigner visiting America for the first time and feeling often pressured with the expectation to tip the right amount to his bartender, or waitress or cab driver. I support the idea that a sensible system of encouraging quality posts is required but am not sure that this one has ticked all the boxes so far.

Work in Progress?
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September 23, 2018, 02:51:50 PM
 #60


The ability to distribute smerit is in very few hands

I do wish people wouldn't keep saying this. Half of the sMerits to be awarded are in the hands of the community, and most of the abuses seem to be as a result of this. If this abuse continues, I can see Theymos blocking the generation of sMerits, and leaving everything up to the merit sources.

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