Before you give merit to a newly-demoted newbie...

[The Sceptical Chymist]

You will be getting a merit as soon as you'll stop looking for it. Just start helping instead of complaining and it will come.

And just look at that, he was given a Merit on his second post without a sweat.

I explained my rationale for giving him a merit here, and I stand by it.  It was for that post which was a short but well-written post by a noob who I thought deserved it.  You didn't quote the whole thing, by the way.

And hey, if I'm wrong then he probably won't ever make it past Jr. Member.  No problem.  I'm not going to make it a habit of meriting garbage newbie posts--it never was my habit anyway.  

[Msworld83]

I got made a merit source this morning, which was a bit of a surprise since I hadn't ever applied to be one and have stated multiple times that I didn't want to be one.  However, since Theymos has seen fit to saddle me with the responsibility, I'll accept it and take it seriously.

However, I don't plan to give merits to any old Newbie just for a typical crappy post, i.e., I don't plan to lower the standards that I've always had.  What I do plan on doing is finding low-ranked members who actually deserve merits, and I'll pay more attention to noob posts when I see them.

Theymos wants these noobs merited even if their posts are just "good".  Fortunately we all have different definitions of the word "good" and in my opinion that's the standard I've always tried to uphold.  I just happen to have high standards when it comes to what's good.  I'll be on the lookout for good posts, as I'm sure all the new and old merit sources will be.  We've got more sMerits to play with, so I don't think this is going to be as bad as it looks in the first 24 hours of the change.

newbie hell

I like that.  I think I'm going to use that in the future.

Please kindly look in to my account and check my posts if I deserve to be merit , am not saying you should give me free but think I had some good post and think I deserve but if you find non good enough then am ready to work hard and believe I will get one day , I will be happy if you can check my posts and let me know if I worth or not and let me know where to nail it in other to be merited. Thank you.

[MagicSmoker]

...
My opinion is that quality is important, but that the merit sources are to strict for some non-native speakers. Most expect lengthy posts in fluent English, related to Bitcoin. In my view, this leaves an important group of non-native, less eloquent, visitors who will never be able to gather any merits. These members do not deserve to become Legendary members, but I don't think that jr. membership is overrating their contributions. They are ensuring I have new posts to read when I come online, trying to contribute to the best of their abilities.
...

Thanks for dropping in and engaging the discussion in a reasonable manner. I wasn't picking on you, per se, when I used your awarding crocus a merit as an example, it was just convenient and poignant.

However, let me explain my rationale for the warning in this thread: just consider the mindset of a person who mainly posts in spam megathreads - that is, those threads that drone on for dozens to hundreds of pages on subjects which themselves aren't even original. Such a person is not really interested in having a discussion (like this one) rather, they are merely trying to increase their post count, and likely for a signature or bounty campaign.

I don't have a problem with sig campaigns. In fact, I checked out chip mixer specifically because of the quality of people involved in its campaign. But that sword cuts both ways, and I will never consider ingotcoin or eloncity or privcy because of the massive number of shitposts their campaign participants generate.

Oh, and hardly any of my posts are on bitcoin: my primary interest is altcoin mining.

[Direwolve735]

I agree with one merit to become Junior but we should also remove Junior's signatures. Requiring ten merit to become a Member and get a sig would really sort the wheat from the chaff here. Far too easy to beg, buy or trade one merit and this will become rife. Ten is a much different ball game and becomes exponentially more difficult the more accounts you have.

I agree that Juniors should also be prohibited from using signatures and personal texts. And I`m sure theymos also understands this. But I guess he didn`t want to establish such drastic changes all at once, as this could "scare off" users of lower ranks and have a bad effect on traffic. Theymos gives Juniors a chance to improve the quality of their posts. Establishing new rules for Newbies is a kind of warning for Juniors. If they correctly understand it, the need to establish more stringent rules in order to become a member, will disappear. And if spam from Juniors still continues, theymos will always have time to introduce new restrictions.

[hilariousetc]

I agree with one merit to become Junior but we should also remove Junior's signatures. Requiring ten merit to become a Member and get a sig would really sort the wheat from the chaff here. Far too easy to beg, buy or trade one merit and this will become rife. Ten is a much different ball game and becomes exponentially more difficult the more accounts you have.

I agree that Juniors should also be prohibited from using signatures and personal texts. And I`m sure theymos also understands this. But I guess he didn`t want to establish such drastic changes all at once, as this could "scare off" users of lower ranks and have a bad effect on traffic. Theymos gives Juniors a chance to improve the quality of their posts. Establishing new rules for Newbies is a kind of warning for Juniors. If they correctly understand it, the need to establish more stringent rules in order to become a member, will disappear. And if spam from Juniors still continues, theymos will always have time to introduce new restrictions.

I dunno. Requiring one or even ten merit is hardly drastic, but it probably would have been better doing it now at the same time rather than at some other point down the line. I think it would be better to make certain changes all together rather than having to deal with fresh amounts of complaints every time we change something minor. This is a small baby-step in the right direction but we've still got a long way to go before we make this forum fit for purpose. I don't think any amount of changes here other than the outright removal of signatures will scare people off either. Children will throw their tantrums for a few days or weeks then get over it and deal with it because this forum is far too valuable to them so believe me when I say they're going nowhere, but they're certainly going to cry about it for a bit until they calm down.

[neli234]

I feel that I should probably make an appearance here, since I'm mentioned in the first post.

Let me start off by saying I respect everyone's opinion and understand their reasoning for not agreeing with me. Based on the reactions I'm getting, my view of Bitcointalk is potentially not even aligned with Theymos. However, I am not a merit source so I do feel I can grant my (limited) merits based on my own values.

My opinion is that quality is important, but that the merit sources are to strict for some non-native speakers. Most expect lengthy posts in fluent English, related to Bitcoin. In my view, this leaves an important group of non-native, less eloquent, visitors who will never be able to gather any merits. These members do not deserve to become Legendary members, but I don't think that jr. membership is overrating their contributions. They are ensuring I have new posts to read when I come online, trying to contribute to the best of their abilities.

Of course I excluded posters specifically farming for merit, only participating in bounty campaigns etc. What we're talking about are the users that write 2-4 sentence replies in non-fluent English, under relevant posts on a regular basis. My feeling is that these members do deserve jr. membership after making hundreds of relevant, non-eloquent, posts.

As a result of the previous discussions, people seem to think I'm devaluing merits by doing so. The good news is I only had 5 to give away. I don't think the merit system will collapse because of me but I have made 5 people very happy today. That gives me plenty of offline merit to be able to do something like that for someone  

Very nice to read your comment, can say it is sympathy for the new members of the forum. I have read the above discussion and I am actually a member from a country that does not use english as my main language and my foreign language ability is quite limited. It can be said that it is almost impossible to write a long analysis with complex technical terms and graphs so the ability to collect merit is impossible. In addition to the merit system, it is now desirable to have a merit system for members every year or every two years (only 1 merit) of new members who meet the required number of activities during the year (in the range 100-300 Activity). That's great for all right?

[Direwolve735]

I agree with one merit to become Junior but we should also remove Junior's signatures. Requiring ten merit to become a Member and get a sig would really sort the wheat from the chaff here. Far too easy to beg, buy or trade one merit and this will become rife. Ten is a much different ball game and becomes exponentially more difficult the more accounts you have.

I agree that Juniors should also be prohibited from using signatures and personal texts. And I`m sure theymos also understands this. But I guess he didn`t want to establish such drastic changes all at once, as this could "scare off" users of lower ranks and have a bad effect on traffic. Theymos gives Juniors a chance to improve the quality of their posts. Establishing new rules for Newbies is a kind of warning for Juniors. If they correctly understand it, the need to establish more stringent rules in order to become a member, will disappear. And if spam from Juniors still continues, theymos will always have time to introduce new restrictions.

I dunno. Requiring one or even ten merit is hardly drastic, but it probably would have been better doing it now at the same time rather than at some other point down the line. I think it would be better to make certain changes all together rather than having to deal with fresh amounts of complaints every time we change something minor. This is a small baby-step in the right direction but we've still got a long way to go before we make this forum fit for purpose. I don't think any amount of changes here other than the outright removal of signatures will scare people off either. Children will throw their tantrums for a few days or weeks then get over it and deal with it because this forum is far too valuable to them so believe me when I say they're going nowhere, but they're certainly going to cry about it for a bit until they calm down.

I see your point and I agree with you. If I decided, I would approve all the changes at a time. Those who really want to stay on this forum would have to accept the rules and comply with them. But I guess theymos thinks otherwise. Perhaps he sees something, knows about some trends that we don`t know about. I'm sure that for such a "step-by-step" decision theymos had reasons. After all, he took the decision not to hurry and introduce changes gradually, although he could do everything together. And, despite the fact that I personally advocate the widespread approval of changes that were repeatedly suggested by the forum participants (including you), "step-by-step" solutions also make sense. For example, it is easier to analyze the results of a single change, whereas you clearly see the cause-effect relationship (made the decision-got the result) than all the changes together (in that case, there is no certainty which decision led to this or that result).

[LoyceV]

You will be getting a merit as soon as you'll stop looking for it. Just start helping instead of complaining and it will come.

And just look at that, he was given a Merit on his second post without a sweat.

I explained my rationale for giving him a merit here, and I stand by it.  It was for that post which was a short but well-written post by a noob who I thought deserved it.

I gave him my last source Merit (for the first time since I became a source, I finally managed to spend them all). On top of your reasoning: he's also a Copper Member, so he doesn't need to be Jr. Member for the perks. And he made only 3 posts since June, which isn't the typical spammer. Basically new users who aren't spammers make me very happy, as that is what this forum needs.

~ I have made 5 people very happy today. That gives me plenty of offline merit to be able to do something like that for someone 

I'll have to disagree with your reasoning here. Making someone happy isn't a good reason to merit a post. I can just as well get them banned if they break the rules, knowing damn well it can seriously impact someone's income in a poor country. I won't merit them to make them happy, and I won't stop reporting bad posts because it could make them sad.

[7Dyoknga5]

...please make sure their post history is not filled with 1-2 line replies in spam megathreads (or bounty reports, of course).

For example, Delphinus awarded crocus a merit point to get him out of newbie hell after reviewing his post history:

Here you go. I've gone through your post history. You're posts aren't perfect, but it's pretty clear you're a real account with a long post history of on-topic comments.
Definitely deserve to be a jr. member 

Wow I've got merit thanks sir for checking my post history, I will post more quality post to have a great and helpful community.

While crocus can string together words into an intelligible sentence or two, most, if not all, of his/her replies are merely rehashing what a thousand other people (or bots) have said on the hundreds of other pages in these spam megathreads.

Good point. But doesn't that remove the liberty of the merit sources (which the admins chosen) to give merits base from their own judgement or criteria?

Merit system is subjective but efficient way to maximize quality posts, I agree to that. I just felt sad to see my account to newbie again.

[MagicSmoker]

Good point. But doesn't that remove the liberty of the merit sources (which the admins chosen) to give merits base from their own judgement or criteria?
...

This makes no sense whatsoever, but since you exercised the poor judgment to wander into this thread in the first place despite a post history that even a mother couldn't love...

Post #349 in "Germany recognized the bitcoin" [sic]:

Germany recognizing bitcoin would give a big impact. The country is known to produce good quality of products that is recognized in the world market and a a market player recognizing bitcoin would be big.

Hope there's a link or source for this claim though.

Post #898 in "Factors that affect the value of bitcoin":

FUD's plays a big factor. These could scare away possible investors and the current ones tend to sell their coins/tokens to "avoid further loss", thus making overflowing amount of supply in the market.

Etc.

[eclipsefarmer]

Lets be honest, the only people who are really complaining about this change are the ones who wanted to use their accounts for bounties or people who wanted to use bots for
the very same reason.

The easiest way to keep people away from spamming is by restricting these bounties or changing the way these bounties have to work.
For example that not the acitivity or amount of posts is the important thing but the merits you already earned.

So that people who somehow provide for the community or care about it can take part in these bounties. Since I assume
these people are less likely to join scam projects on purpose - sure you can never be certain about these things, but I think
it might be a good indicator.

If anyone doesnt like my suggestion, sorry! But dont burn me for it!

[7Dyoknga5]

Good point. But doesn't that remove the liberty of the merit sources (which the admins chosen) to give merits base from their own judgement or criteria?
...

This makes no sense whatsoever, but since you exercised the poor judgment to wander into this thread in the first place despite a post history that even a mother couldn't love...

Post #349 in "Germany recognized the bitcoin" [sic]:

Germany recognizing bitcoin would give a big impact. The country is known to produce good quality of products that is recognized in the world market and a a market player recognizing bitcoin would be big.

Hope there's a link or source for this claim though.

Post #898 in "Factors that affect the value of bitcoin":

FUD's plays a big factor. These could scare away possible investors and the current ones tend to sell their coins/tokens to "avoid further loss", thus making overflowing amount of supply in the market.

Etc.

Feel proud of yourself huh? With your 1588 posts and only 117 merit? I guess opposing your opinion will result to shaming. Is this one of your ways to get merit?

Good luck with that 

[Delphinus]

~ I have made 5 people very happy today. That gives me plenty of offline merit to be able to do something like that for someone  

I'll have to disagree with your reasoning here. Making someone happy isn't a good reason to merit a post. I can just as well get them banned if they break the rules, knowing damn well it can seriously impact someone's income in a poor country. I won't merit them to make them happy, and I won't stop reporting bad posts because it could make them sad.

I feel you're taking my post a bit out of context. I had several reasons to provide them with my merits (based their contribution to this forum). This was just an addition for me, not the reason for choosing them. However, I think that with great power also comes great responsibility. As administrator and merit source, you have more responsibility for your actions and the need to thoroughly research members before making decisions. Although we might not agree on the approach, I am really trying to help the community how I think is best  

[Delphinus]

...
My opinion is that quality is important, but that the merit sources are to strict for some non-native speakers. Most expect lengthy posts in fluent English, related to Bitcoin. In my view, this leaves an important group of non-native, less eloquent, visitors who will never be able to gather any merits. These members do not deserve to become Legendary members, but I don't think that jr. membership is overrating their contributions. They are ensuring I have new posts to read when I come online, trying to contribute to the best of their abilities.
...

Thanks for dropping in and engaging the discussion in a reasonable manner. I wasn't picking on you, per se, when I used your awarding crocus a merit as an example, it was just convenient and poignant.

However, let me explain my rationale for the warning in this thread: just consider the mindset of a person who mainly posts in spam megathreads - that is, those threads that drone on for dozens to hundreds of pages on subjects which themselves aren't even original. Such a person is not really interested in having a discussion (like this one) rather, they are merely trying to increase their post count, and likely for a signature or bounty campaign.

I don't have a problem with sig campaigns. In fact, I checked out chip mixer specifically because of the quality of people involved in its campaign. But that sword cuts both ways, and I will never consider ingotcoin or eloncity or privcy because of the massive number of shitposts their campaign participants generate.

Oh, and hardly any of my posts are on bitcoin: my primary interest is altcoin mining.

No offense taken, I like reasonable discussions  I've personally found new gems in threads such as "which altcoin is the best buy right now", so I'm probably more lenient than most towards these large, generic threads. I've also posted there myself. Their posts seemed "personal" to me, not a generic bot attempting to gain more posts.

However, I didn't review all threads they replied on so I could be wrong. I can't withdraw merits if people got them undeserved, but I do stick with my viewpoint that active participation is for me also a factor, in addition to the quality of posts.

[mahdie88]

It doesn't matter anymore, we got demoted and I think we deserve it. Yes, we deserve it because we never did something for the community, majority of people got demoted are bounty hunters like me. Posting for weekly reports for our own sake without helping the forum to be cleaned. So this is indeed a best way of clearing nonsense people spamming all over the threads. Good luck everyone.

[faithofb]

Am really depressed now for getting demoted with all my efforts to continue making nice post and still want to ask what in a situation where by someone makes good post but no one ever recognized him. by giving merits until he beg because i have been trying to make quality post but no one has ever seen it. The struggle continues  , i think this will make me put more effort of good post.

[neli234]

You will be getting a merit as soon as you'll stop looking for it. Just start helping instead of complaining and it will come.

And just look at that, he was given a Merit on his second post without a sweat.

I explained my rationale for giving him a merit here, and I stand by it.  It was for that post which was a short but well-written post by a noob who I thought deserved it.

I gave him my last source Merit (for the first time since I became a source, I finally managed to spend them all). On top of your reasoning: he's also a Copper Member, so he doesn't need to be Jr. Member for the perks. And he made only 3 posts since June, which isn't the typical spammer. Basically new users who aren't spammers make me very happy, as that is what this forum needs.

~ I have made 5 people very happy today. That gives me plenty of offline merit to be able to do something like that for someone 

I'll have to disagree with your reasoning here. Making someone happy isn't a good reason to merit a post. I can just as well get them banned if they break the rules, knowing damn well it can seriously impact someone's income in a poor country. I won't merit them to make them happy, and I won't stop reporting bad posts because it could make them sad.

There are many responsible members like you so well, many members have quality posts but little attention. And they really should get at least 1 merit for their contributions...

[suchmoon]

And hey, if I'm wrong then he probably won't ever make it past Jr. Member.

This.

We are so often focused on micromanaging merits (no doubt affected by the incessant newbie whining in Meta) that we tend to lose sight of the big picture. Yes, sometimes a shitposter will get an undeserved merit AKA nuclear shelter. That's fine. 99% of them won't and this will go a long way towards cleaning this forum up, especially if theymos decides to appoint more moderators/patrollers. That's not to say we should not be careful with sMerits or not look out for merit sale/abuse but let's not sweat it too much either.

BTW those juniors with one merit and 1000 posts will stick out just like newbies with 1000 posts. See one like that, check their post history, report some (or a 100) and chances are he/she/it/whatever will get banned, which is almost as good as a nuke if a bit more wearisome.

[MagicSmoker]

...I've personally found new gems in threads such as "which altcoin is the best buy right now", so I'm probably more lenient than most towards these large, generic threads. I've also posted there myself. Their posts seemed "personal" to me, not a generic bot attempting to gain more posts.
...

If you have the time/patience to sort through all the chaff to find people actually having a discussion in those spam megathreads then I can't argue with giving those people merit.

My primary concern is that one mindless shitposter spamming for bounty can churn out dozens of posts per day, and if enough of them are "accidentally" merited the whole spam problem starts up again.

Although suchmoon makes a good point that a jr. member with high activity/post count and just 1 or 2 merits will, indeed, stick out like a sore thumb now. Much more so than when there were a near-infinite number of newbies AND jr. members with 0 merit.

[rommelo24]

...please make sure their post history is not filled with 1-2 line replies in spam megathreads (or bounty reports, of course).

With due respect, i think if the query/question can be answered in few words then it is good to go. Not all people who visited this forum is gifted to do a Pharmacist act, answer a single question with a poem.     

You're posts aren't perfect, but it's pretty clear you're a real account with a long post history of on-topic comments.

I know that this forum is putting emphasis to people to contribute to this forum but i think we might as well distinguish them if they are real or robot.