Ideas for topic ordering in altcoin announcements?

[theymos]

There's a strong incentive to spam replies to topics in altcoin announcements and a few other sections because there's a lot of activity and competition for eyeballs there. This spam should just be deleted, but I'd also like to remove the incentive by changing the default ordering of topics in those sections from "last post" to something new. (You'll still be able to click/bookmark something to get the old ordering.)

What are your ideas for new ordering methods? My current idea is:
 1. For each topic, get a list of the distinct users who posted there in the last 24 hours.
 2. Give the topic a score equal to the sum of each such user's total earned merit.
 3. Sort by topic score descending, and secondarily by the usual last post time.

With that, you still have topics with recent conversation listed first, but it requires more resources to manipulate, at least, and newbies have no influence. Maybe it'd give certain users overwhelming influence, though.

I want to think about it quite a bit more, so I probably won't do it soon.

[ReckLess.6]

This - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5038566.0

[theymos]

This - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5038566.0

Do you mean total merit across all posts in the topic, or just for the OP?

[ReckLess.6]

This - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5038566.0

Do you mean total merit across all posts in the topic, or just for the OP?

You may try both and see which one works better. Though, merit spammers will try to game this as well. But with active policing like trust system, they can be identified and punished.

As a starter, here is the technical suggestion I made in the other thread...

Here is a technical suggestion for theymos. You have already created this page for Merit Stats, i.e. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;stats. How about just adding a board-wise filter to it?

For example, Top-merited topics, all-time of Beginners & Help section should be found with this link - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;stats=toptopicsat;board=39.0

All it requires is just another INNER JOIN, which should not be costly.

[The Cryptovator]

1. For each topic, get a list of the distinct users who posted there in the last 24 hours.
 2. Give the topic a score equal to the sum of each such user's total earned merit.
 3. Sort by topic score descending, and secondarily by the usual last post time.

It will be best especially for altcoin announcements  board. Its good to see that you are thinking about it.

The main problem is now altcoin announcements  board. I have some suggestion and its no need much technical work.
1. Disable posting on  altcoin announcements below Jr. member rank. Keep only read mode for newbie rank.
2. For reduce spam from others board just disable signature below member rank include copper membership. Peoples are skipping merit system and buying copper membership. Let them(newbie) earn from other campaign. So they are continue spamming.

This spam should just be deleted

That's the problem, just be deleted. Why should not punished them ? Even temporary punishment. Like if a newbie 10 post reported and deleted by moderator, then he should get ban for 3 days. For each rank there will be different deleted post count. Something like that will help reduce more spam.

[suchmoon]

What are your ideas for new ordering methods? My current idea is:
 1. For each topic, get a list of the distinct users who posted there in the last 24 hours.
 2. Give the topic a score equal to the sum of each such user's total earned merit.
 3. Sort by topic score descending, and secondarily by the usual last post time.

Sounds interesting but perhaps this can be implemented initially as an option to try it out?

It seems to me that this could prevent some (most) threads from ever showing up the front page. Some others would be likely permanently parked there.

Also if I want to comment on some scam I would likely bump it to the front page (which happens now too but the front page bump in the new system would be far more valuable). An opt-out from the score would be nice.

[elliottflz65]

It seems to me that this could prevent some (most) threads from ever showing up the front page. Some others would be likely permanently parked there.

That's the problem with this suggestion. We all know that the newbies are the most influential users in that sub forum currently because they can keep on making accounts and bumping the the threads up even if they are banned. Therefore as suggested previously in this thread newbies should have read only privileges. If they want to contact the thread owner they can do so through their social media, website or by personal message. 

The solution proposed means that certain threads would just have more exposure and it doesn't mean that they are quality threads either. Its sort of free advertisement for those threads and unfair to the new and up and coming projects. I think by restricting posting privileges for newbie accounts and working in conjunction with the jr member merit requirement we will see a lot less spam.

We could even implement a system where posts from newbies have to be whitelisted before they are posted. This is more work for the moderator of the sub forum and globals but I think is a good way to go about it. This way we aren't totally restricting users but at the same time preventing bumping of topics and creation of hundreds of newbie accounts to purposely bump the topic.

[TheBeardedBaby]

Thank you Theymos. I see results now so our time is not wasted

The reports and deleted messages should also be taken in consideration, because this is how the whole section is monitored at the moment.

For example, If I report 10 posts in one thread and they are marked as good, then the thread should taken down from the first page.

Maybe for every 10 good reports the Ann should be taken 10 positions down.

Maybe this rule can apply only for those ANNs who have posts reported and marked as good.

BTW, if you go through my report history from today, you'll find an Ann thread full of posts of members with with a single post count.
I have no proof that those are bots but I'm sure they are.
It is very difficult situation for sure.

[bitmover]

What are your ideas for new ordering methods? My current idea is:
 1. For each topic, get a list of the distinct users who posted there in the last 24 hours.
 2. Give the topic a score equal to the sum of each such user's total earned merit.
 3. Sort by topic score descending, and secondarily by the usual last post time.

Maybe the average of the users (from past24h) total earned merit.?

If thousands of newbies start spamming" good project", the average user merit will go down, reducing the score.

Those Airdrops with proof of authentication could disappear, as they will reduce score. Or maybe create an especific session for them, if you believe they are useful for the forum...


I have noticed also that usually when a project is better than the others, its announcement is usually highly merited. Community support usually rewards merit to the project. This could also be considered in the score, however it would probably lead to merit selling...

Probably every method will be abused. But you can make it so expensive that few people will abuse it.

[chenille]

In general, I like the idea. Maybe creating more sub-boards. Spammy boards tend to encourage to spam more.

1. Disable posting on  altcoin announcements below Jr. member rank. Keep only read mode for newbie rank.

I doubt that's a good idea, many (legit) Newbies are only coming to ask a few questions there and if they can't do this it would reduce the benefit to make an announcement for every project. I agree, there are lots of paid spammers, but we can't restrict every Newbie to catch the spammers.

2. For reduce spam from others board just disable signature below member rank include copper membership. Peoples are skipping merit system and buying copper membership. Let them(newbie) earn from other campaign. So they are continue spamming.

Agreed 100%. Copper membership is just another option to buy a member account. Since 1 merit is required for Jr. Member most spammers decided to buy a copper membership instead. It seems to be more profitable obviously. 

[DdmrDdmr]

<…>

A couple of months ago I suggested something similar, but for the Bounty section (see Where to run a spam free bounty campaign? [new board?]). The idea was to use the earned merit in a 48 hour period to establish the sort order, but I did complicate the idea by allowing the screen to have a section ordered by the merit criteria, and a section of the screen ordered by the conventional last post criteria (in order to allow both criterias to coexist and not give full power to merits).

[hilariousetc]

Why don't you make it so the thread can only be bumped once per day regardless of how many people post in it? I think if we make it merit or rank-based then they'll just find a way around it by paying the relevant users to post in there. That would at least the defeat the purpose of paid bumping and it'll probably stop whilst still allowing active threads to be bumped daily (but just once a day. The time could also even be randomised so people can't just choose a certain time of day to bump it).

Have you thought any more about this that you put in the Maybe category:

• Charging ICOs a fee to make their ANN here. You could even get rid of the ANN board completely and give them their own sub once they've paid the fee. If there's no Ann board then there will probably be no paid bumping because it will be useless, but let them spam away in their own slum and squalor.


Maybe.

I think that would once and for all solve the paid bumping issue and it's about time ICOs started contributing financially to the mess they're causing here and the extra manpower that is needed from staff to clean it up.

1. Disable posting on  altcoin announcements below Jr. member rank. Keep only read mode for newbie rank.

I think a better solution (and as I have suggested before) would be that lower ranked member's posts in there just don't bump the thread at all. I think they'll just get around it though by using higher-ranked accounts which could easily be purchased (if they don't even have them already or some high ranked bumping service will then pop up to meet demand).

[EcuaMobi]

What are your ideas for new ordering methods? My current idea is:
 1. For each topic, get a list of the distinct users who posted there in the last 24 hours.
 2. Give the topic a score equal to the sum of each such user's total earned merit.
 3. Sort by topic score descending, and secondarily by the usual last post time.

I like this idea. The only problem as you mentioned is that some users would have too much influence.
To reduce this a simple formula could be applied to reduce the weight of individual users, for example getting the sume of the square root of each user's total earned merit (or log or similar), or there can be a table of merit range correlated with a specific amount of awarded points, so newbies with no merit aren't counted but no one counts too much.

[LoyceV]

1. For each topic, get a list of the distinct users who posted there in the last 24 hours.

I think this will give a terrible incentive to spammers to use more accounts to spam. I've created many lists, checking how many distinct users have posted in a thread. Typically, there are 2 kinds:
a. threads with hundreds to thousands of Newbies posting once
b. threads with a few dozen Newbies (or higher ranks) posting tens to hundreds of posts each
I expect b. to switch to a., making them more work to nuke.
It took me a while to figure out these 3 points aren't meant to be separate ideas, but implemented together. That makes much more sense, and makes my initial reponse irrelevant.

2. Give the topic a score equal to the sum of each such user's total earned merit.
 3. Sort by topic score descending, and secondarily by the usual last post time.

When you say "earned", does that mean you'll ignore the airdropped merit? If so: I like it! That's a great way to reward decent posters, and they have something to lose if they spam and get banned.


I've suggested it before and I'll do it again: can Newbies, Jr. Members and maybe even Members lose their ability to "bump" a topic on certain boards? They keep their freedom to post, but it will end most bump spam. And if they use higher ranked accounts to spam, they'll only have a limited supply which can be dealt with by banning them.

but it requires more resources to manipulate, at least, and newbies have no influence. Maybe it'd give certain users overwhelming influence, though.

Good point! I can already imagine the offers in my PM for one post in a thread, if it's sorted by total merit earned

That's the problem, just be deleted. Why should not punished them ?

I think Mods are too soft on spammers, especially compared to the number of spam bots that go around. I've reported many bump bots that just got a post deleted instead of a ban. Not only does that not matter to them, it's not even a punishment as the bump has had it's effect already.

For example, If I report 10 posts in one thread and they are marked as good, then the thread should taken down from the first page.

That can be abused to kill a competitor's thread.

[coinlocket$]

If we will have a system where threads will be pumped on 1st page by merit, someone will find the way to cheat gifting merit to random accounts or paying high users members to post on their thread.

Maybe for every 10 good reports the Ann should be taken 10 positions down.

This is a terrible idea, They will spam on the good threads and report only to get their thread in a better spot.

Just modify "last post" order function which ignore all posts made by Newbie and Jr. Member (if necessary). So thread only bumped if Member or higher rank made a post.

Combine it with suggestion made by another member, increase merit requirement to rank up or disable signature on this sections is pretty effective IMO.

Same, they will pay high ranks to bump treads, also a lot of Ico bumping service has high ranks members

Bumping ico-bounty service allowed? 69 accounts involved so far. Need DT or MOD

[hilariousetc]

That's the problem, just be deleted. Why should not punished them ?

I think Mods are too soft on spammers, especially compared to number of spam bots that go around. I've reported many bump bots that just got a post deleted instead of a ban. Not only does that not matter to them, it's not even a punishment as the bump has had it's effect already.

It's probably not about being soft but rather having the time, energy and resources. There's only a few staff members that can ban people for a start and it's incredibly time-consuming to do so not to mention never-ending, and that's why things need to change with the culture here. Also, those specific reports you're talking about may have been handled by someone who doesn't have the ability to ban them, but it's also something staff shouldn't have to be doing and is just seen as a waste of time by most of us at this point without changing the culture of paid bumping which is at least being addressed now with this thread.

[elliottflz65]

Just keep "last post" as default order, but ignore all posts made by Newbie and Jr. Member (if necessary).
So thread only bumped if Member or higher rank made a post.

By doing this we won't just be solving a problem which has been needed to be solved for a long time but we will also be catching members that merit abuse just so they can bump topics again. We will likely be able to identify the people behind merit selling and the restrictions implemented aren't that big of a deal. We don't owe anything to newbies and they shouldn't expect to have the same permissions as the rest of the forum for the sake of spam issues sometimes restrictions have to be put in place. I know the community is generally against the idea of implementing restrictions to deal with our issues but that is exactly what this would do. It would solve the problem completely and if it didn't and I'm wrong it would at least be having a great impact on those who can't string sentences together and can't earn enough merit so they go and buy it. The way I see it if you haven't contributed to the forum then you shouldn't have the same privileges as others who have.

[suchmoon]

Why don't you make it so the thread can only be bumped once per day regardless of how many people post in it? I think if we make it merit or rank-based then they'll just find a way around it by paying the relevant users to post in there. That would at least the defeat the purpose of paid bumping and it'll probably stop whilst still allowing active threads to be bumped daily (but just once a day. The time could also even be randomised so people can't just choose a certain time of day to bump it).

So it would be essentially a random list of threads that were posted in at least once in the last 24h. I kinda like the idea of it being less random and more merit-based.

For example, If I report 10 posts in one thread and they are marked as good, then the thread should taken down from the first page.

That can be abused to kill a competitor's thread.

And this too:

Maybe the average of the users (from past24h) total earned merit.?

If thousands of newbies start spamming" good project", the average user merit will go down, reducing the score.

A couple of months ago I suggested something similar, but for the Bounty section (see Where to run a spam free bounty campaign? [new board?]). The idea was to use the earned merit in a 48 hour period to establish the sort order, but I did complicate the idea by allowing the screen to have a section ordered by the merit criteria, and a section of the screen ordered by the conventional last post criteria (in order to allow both criterias to coexist and not give full power to merits).

This sounds interesting and is probably less prone to abuse. Someone would have to spend merits to keep the thread on top and not just buy/farm a few accounts.

[eddie13]

Sell the top spots to them like parking meters or youtube superchats. Send so much BTC and then the time ticks down for their positions. Bounties too.
Spend it on a superbowl add for BTC  

They can play bumping games for the unpaid spots after that.

[elliottflz65]

Sell the top spots to them like parking meters or youtube superchats. Send so much BTC and then the time ticks down for their positions.
Spend it on a superbowl add for BTC 

I think this is a joke. However the annoying part about this which hits home is that there are actually forums that do this sort of shit. Including several other crypto forums. Its ridiculous and wouldn't solve any problem at all. We already know that these projects are willing to spend money on spamming their threads up to the top because there are many services which offer bumping services. If the forum did this it would just be giving them permission to do it as long as they pay.