Let us devise a Sensible solution to Copy and Paste situation.

[cryptohunter]

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST WITH ANYTHING OTHER THAN SUGGESTIONS FOR A BETTER SYSTEM THAN WE HAVE NOW

IF YOU SIMPLY WANT TO KEEP IT AS IT IS THEN DO NOT POST AND CLUTTER THE IDEAS OF PEOPLE WHO MAY WISH TO CONSTRUCT A BETTER SYSTEM



Now that I know hillarious and co can reinstate banned people we could probably do something like this simple and fast solution


1. anyone wants to appeal after copy and paste of serious nature found in their posts (not film quotes for humour, memes, news posted on correct project)
Needs to pay 0.5 BTC fine and have a 6months - 1yr month sig ban automatically..

2. 1 btc held with escrows(mods). Thread dedicated to it with user account details with start of ban, end ban and link to account

3.  If caught using sig  during sig ban time then instant perm ban and loss of all funds. Funds split between finder of copy and paste, mod (escrow) , and person discovering sig usage during sig ban time. (Proof of sig use must be provided for public to see and mod should witness really)

4. Those abiding by sig ban will get back 0.5 btc at end of sig ban term and be allowed their sigs back but zero tolerance copy and paste after point of appeal.

this could be run on a thread in reputation really....copy and pasters named and shamed post.

Sticky put here in meta or could just have link in the ban to the copy and pasters thread where it all takes place.


I'm not a game theory expert so perhaps lots of holes in this.

I had thought up a more elaborate plan with full history reviews but it is a huge task and I guess great poster is quite subject and matching criteria on huge histories on every posts is impossible.

I mean I expect a lot of copy and pasters will not go for this because there is little point for them ...sig bans, fines and instant bans if they do it again. Most will not appeal.

This is goes for every copy and paster too so no favouritism. Except perhaps pure crazy copy and paste pure ico sig spammers ...perhaps they could be just denied access to the discipline program.  


Of course many will have better systems but this could instantly cut out a lot of time and energy and reward reporters for locating, mods for reviewing and escrowing and other reporters spotting sig use during ban time.

Hillarious could take care of it all if he can ban and unban.. seems theymos will not have to review or spend time coding anything.

For alternative systems that improve on what we have now just post below and  perhaps we can together reach a good solution.













 

[1714118042]

1714118042

[1714118042]

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[yahoo62278]

Wouldn't the sensible solution be to NOT COPY AND PASTE? I've said it a million times, these cheaters do not deserve another chance. They know they are doing wrong when they do it. I'm sure they have been educated about some rules of the forum prior to opening accounts here to earn for their campaigns. They also have access to the meta area where hundreds of posts weekly are able to be seen and read that deal with accounts being banned due to copy/paste.

Do you have an army of banned accounts or something? You seem awfully interested in bringing banned accounts back. I'm trying to stay objective to your opinions but this idea seems a bit nuts to me.

Let's see what everyone else thinks though. Maybe I'm off on an island alone here

[suchmoon]

Needs to pay 0.5 BTC fine and have a 6months - 1yr month sig ban automatically..

They could probably buy dozens of high-rank accounts for 0.5 BTC. Or a few hundred coppers.

Doesn't make sense.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

Maybe I'm off on an island alone here

Someone is off on an island somewhere, but it isn't you.

If I wake up one morning and find a flaming bag of shit on my porch, I'm not going to bring it inside and try to nurse it back to health.  That doesn't even make sense, right?  Well, that's exactly what I think of OP's idea.  The plagiarists are the flaming bags of shit, and they need to get the fuck off the porch.  Mods have been damn good with the fire extinguisher and porch-cleaning, as have been the members reporting the plagiarism.  No sympathy should be expected or given to these people, no second chances, no nothing--just a ban, and as I've written in recent threads, they should be given one example of something they've plagiarized in the ban PM and that's it. 

The ban appeal threads are getting monotonous, and these people are not the folks most of us want around bitcointalk.  There's no complicated solution necessary for these idiots' actions.  Ban.  Boom.  Gone.

[coinlocket$]

We can't fix lazy uses stupidity, everyone is the master of his own destiny.

[cryptohunter]

Wouldn't the sensible solution be to NOT COPY AND PASTE? I've said it a million times, these cheaters do not deserve another chance. They know they are doing wrong when they do it. I'm sure they have been educated about some rules of the forum prior to opening accounts here to earn for their campaigns. They also have access to the meta area where hundreds of posts weekly are able to be seen and read that deal with accounts being banned due to copy/paste.

Do you have an army of banned accounts or something? You seem awfully interested in bringing banned accounts back. I'm trying to stay objective to your opinions but this idea seems a bit nuts to me.

Let's see what everyone else thinks though. Maybe I'm off on an island alone here

What is this nonsense??

I said reply if you have a better idea than the current system.

If you do not want to change how it is now then don't reply here I am asking for ideas to improve the situation.

Yeah I have an army of accounts I want to buy back for 0.5 BTC with no sigs allowed for a year. Can you refrain from asking me stupid questions unless you have some evidence I have any alts. What if I asked you do you take back handers for letting people on the sig campaigns you manage? because I have been told you do?  Now be positive make alternative good suggestions or just go to your own thread.

If you have no alternatives and dont want change from how it is dont post.

The same goes for Thepharmacist - Who I consider here to be contradicting some of his previous comments on copy and paste threads by saying they are all akin to bags of shit that are on fire. I mean why would you feel sympathy for a burning back of shit and recognise they made some good posts?  .

Now both do not post again unless

1 you have a good alternative or want to discuss this one

If you have no interest in change at all from insta perm ban for all that is fine but no need to post here.


WOW 20 merits given out by Tman - you must never want to see anyone that has ever copy and pasted get a second chance? why not?

I mean I don't wish to get into a huge discussion about anything else other than Improving the situation but who feels strongly enough to give such support to NEVER EVER letting copy any pasters having a second chance under any conditions at all. 
Do you really mean that? Seems harsh??

[marlboroza]

This is goes for every copy and paster too so no favouritism. Except perhaps pure crazy copy and paste pure ico sig spammers

Isn't this contradiction?

Maybe just to permaban signature without paying part and user can use forum to post.

What is this nonsense??
I said reply if you have a better idea than the current system.

Yahoo disagreed with your idea and this thread because they think system is good. I don't see this as a nonsense, rather meaningful and sensible post of valuable member of this community.

[Steamtyme]

-snip-
I said reply if you have a better idea than the current system.

If you do not want to change how it is now then don't reply here I am asking for ideas to improve the situation.

If you have no alternatives and dont want change from how it is dont post.

-snip-

Now both do not post again unless
-snip-

If you have no interest in change at all from insta perm ban for all that is fine but no need to post here.

Sorry but you do not get to dictate the free expression of ideas/ideals which contradict your own. If you are interested in a sanitized echo chamber make use of the self-moderated thread. Yes you a very interested in coming up with a new idea to help those you feel made a mistake, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You should expect that every time you have an idea for this, people who are fed up with these shitposting thieves trying to turn this forum into their workplace will express their opposition.

The forum itself does need some changes, assisting plagiarists is far down the list IMO. I wouldn't be opposed to some (So far 1 maybe 2) of these copypasters receiving a second chance. Really though, it's none of the people who's threads you've posted in , someone usually finds many other plagiarized posts. Those members are not victims they are a problem, and keeping them here promotes this problem.

The problems I have with your fix are that you are only assisting Hodlers and the wealthy with the rates you set up. If someone could convince the Admins of their true ignorance to the fact, and fitting with theymos's own views on the matter - "Not doing so for financial gain" - I would give them a chance with no signature for 18 months, No [ANN] threads for ICO's or bounties or businesses.

These members would also be placed on a review list, so that there posts are scrutinized for further wrongdoing.

Trimmed quote

Plagiarism is what gets people permabanned, not just copying. Plagiarism is copying with the intent of passing the work off as your own. In essentially all cases, plagiarism deserves a permaban because it usually proves definitively that the person is here for the wrong reasons: to fill up space in order to get paid, not to actually discuss or contribute.

[yahoo62278]

Wouldn't the sensible solution be to NOT COPY AND PASTE? I've said it a million times, these cheaters do not deserve another chance. They know they are doing wrong when they do it. I'm sure they have been educated about some rules of the forum prior to opening accounts here to earn for their campaigns. They also have access to the meta area where hundreds of posts weekly are able to be seen and read that deal with accounts being banned due to copy/paste.

Do you have an army of banned accounts or something? You seem awfully interested in bringing banned accounts back. I'm trying to stay objective to your opinions but this idea seems a bit nuts to me.

Let's see what everyone else thinks though. Maybe I'm off on an island alone here

What is this nonsense??

I said reply if you have a better idea than the current system.

If you do not want to change how it is now then don't reply here I am asking for ideas to improve the situation.

Yeah I have an army of accounts I want to buy back for 0.5 BTC with no sigs allowed for a year. Can you refrain from asking me stupid questions unless you have some evidence I have any alts. What if I asked you do you take back handers for letting people on the sig campaigns you manage? because I have been told you do?  Now be positive make alternative good suggestions or just go to your own thread.

If you have no alternatives and dont want change from how it is dont post.

The same goes for Thepharmacist - Who I consider here to be contradicting some of his previous comments on copy and paste threads by saying they are all akin to bags of shit that are on fire. I mean why would you feel sympathy for a burning back of shit and recognise they made some good posts?  .

Now both do not post again unless

1 you have a good alternative or want to discuss this one

If you have no interest in change at all from insta perm ban for all that is fine but no need to post here.

I do not believe my answer/reply was nonsense at all. It is exactly what needs to be done. Users don't need coddled. They know exactly what they are doing.

I'm not trying to be difficult for you, I'm voicing my opinion like you have done over 12000 times since becoming a member here.

Why do you want to save these people is the better question? Bitcointalk as a forum is losing nothing by losing these offenders. If anything the few hundred that are banned are serving as the lesson for those considering copy/paste activities.

[cryptohunter]

Wouldn't the sensible solution be to NOT COPY AND PASTE? I've said it a million times, these cheaters do not deserve another chance. They know they are doing wrong when they do it. I'm sure they have been educated about some rules of the forum prior to opening accounts here to earn for their campaigns. They also have access to the meta area where hundreds of posts weekly are able to be seen and read that deal with accounts being banned due to copy/paste.

Do you have an army of banned accounts or something? You seem awfully interested in bringing banned accounts back. I'm trying to stay objective to your opinions but this idea seems a bit nuts to me.

Let's see what everyone else thinks though. Maybe I'm off on an island alone here

What is this nonsense??

I said reply if you have a better idea than the current system.

If you do not want to change how it is now then don't reply here I am asking for ideas to improve the situation.

Yeah I have an army of accounts I want to buy back for 0.5 BTC with no sigs allowed for a year. Can you refrain from asking me stupid questions unless you have some evidence I have any alts. What if I asked you do you take back handers for letting people on the sig campaigns you manage? because I have been told you do?  Now be positive make alternative good suggestions or just go to your own thread.

If you have no alternatives and dont want change from how it is dont post.

The same goes for Thepharmacist - Who I consider here to be contradicting some of his previous comments on copy and paste threads by saying they are all akin to bags of shit that are on fire. I mean why would you feel sympathy for a burning back of shit and recognise they made some good posts?  .

Now both do not post again unless

1 you have a good alternative or want to discuss this one

If you have no interest in change at all from insta perm ban for all that is fine but no need to post here.

I do not believe my answer/reply was nonsense at all. It is exactly what needs to be done. Users don't need coddled. They know exactly what they are doing.

I'm not trying to be difficult for you, I'm voicing my opinion like you have done over 12000 times since becoming a member here.

Why do you want to save these people is the better question? Bitcointalk as a forum is losing nothing by losing these offenders. If anything the few hundred that are banned are serving as the lesson for those considering copy/paste activities.

Okay cool sorry.

Well to be honest I have seen a couple that seems I think deserved a fair chance at another go. They seemed to be mistakes from a while back many years and some of their recent posts were actually very good. I think some people start off here a bit shaky and improve.

I am not just interested in helping copy and pasters at all. I have been called to many posts to help anyone that wants some help.

I just think in this net we are casting it will take down some good eggs and some net positive individuals with it. This is more of a carrot and stick approach to guide people into being net positive rather than a head shot to anyone that steps off the path even for a moment.

@Steamtyme

I wasn't trying to stifle any free speech. They can say anything they want on topic or anything else off topic.

I don't see a point though of turning this thread into pages of people who just say " all plagiarist get insta perm ban" because it makes the conversation for others trying to think up another system much harder.

I read your post and it was a good one. I agree perhaps the rates can be reduced slightly.

Can you point me to the ones that got banned you would give another chance to? I didn't think I missed any hero or legends out because originally I was thinking of a max 1.1000 ratio .... but the reviews and closer scrutiny especially for those with 1000's of posts is a lot to review. This system is quick and fast and could introduce tomorrow.

Let's face it purely financially reward spammers will not appeal so saves time listening to them if they are bad eggs.

[yahoo62278]

Ok so the only solution would still be on a case by case basis. The only problem I would have with allowing any sort of review is who exactly are we reviewing?

How do you know the account has not changed hands multiple times? Or is not involved in a network of cheaters? Do you realize how much work would go into looking into these things?

Hilariousandco most likely does not want the headache of doing the investigative work and neither would anyone else honestly. Unless it's a paying job from the forum administrator, then it may be a possibility.

[Lafu]

I guess it should be as it was and now is !

Copy and Paste ( plagiarism )  gets you banned as in the rules written !

If you in real life , use a other work for something to get yourself an advantage or make money with it , you will also be punished if someone gets out that it is not your own work !

Best example are pictures , if you use others without permission to use it and they find it out you will punished !

The most reason i guess is that 80 %  on the forum (special new Users ) dont read the rules or know them or dont care about .

Ignorance does not protect against punishment.

[cryptohunter]

Ok so the only solution would still be on a case by case basis. The only problem I would have with allowing any sort of review is who exactly are we reviewing?

How do you know the account has not changed hands multiple times? Or is not involved in a network of cheaters? Do you realize how much work would go into looking into these things?

Hilariousandco most likely does not want the headache of doing the investigative work and neither would anyone else honestly. Unless oys a paying job from the forum administrator, then it may be a possibility.

With this system there is no review as such apart from the initial one where the copy and paste is discovered really.

If it has changed hands and the copy and paste happened before they bought it that will be the risk you take when buying an account I guess.

Also really you should build your own account from scratch I think.

I did think up a kind of system that was more elaborate to vet the entire histories but was such a lot of work it would need to cost them a fortune in btc to get anyone to do it.

[jackg]

I’d much sooner suggest banning for 7 days and/or permaban and charge a 1mBTC fee.

Once a second offence happens then permaban. Although I’m satisfied with the current rules, it’s no problem to me or anyone else who abides by international copyright laws...

[suchmoon]

Now that I know hillarious and co can reinstate banned people we could probably do something like this simple and fast solution

This is not simple and fast at all. You're basically letting plagiarists to buy their banned accounts back from the forum for 0.5 BTC and with strings attached (signature not permitted).

First of all, there is no "customer base" for that. Too expensive and too restrictive for shitposters, who can buy another sig-capable account for far less. Not needed for mistakenly banned users who should win their appeals. This appears to be targeted to the elusive "only plagiarized 1 post out of 1000" demographic, of which I've seen perhaps 1 or 2 examples.

Second, even if the "only plagiarized 1 post out of 1000" is an actual problem that we want to solve and we lower the cost to an affordable level, this is a horrible way of doing it. Somebody needs to be the escrow, somebody needs to watch the signatures, somebody needs to enforce the zero-tolerance policy for each previously banned account. It doesn't scale. Yahoo's solution makes far more sense. Don't copy-paste, not even 1 in 1000.

If theymos could implement an actual enforceable signature ban then I'd be ok with it for certain cases. Better yet, make it a max(500, merit_score) merit penalty and if the score is negative after that - permaban stays. That way it can only be used by high-rank accounts and would automatically kill the signature.

I don't see that happening anytime soon though so why don't we focus on solving the shitposting problem rather than helping shitposters.

Except perhaps pure crazy copy and paste pure ico sig spammers  

And who decides all those exceptions?

[cryptohunter]

Now that I know hillarious and co can reinstate banned people we could probably do something like this simple and fast solution

This is not simple and fast at all. You're basically letting plagiarists to buy their banned accounts back from the forum for 0.5 BTC and with strings attached (signature not permitted).

First of all, there is no "customer base" for that. Too expensive and too restrictive for shitposters, who can buy another sig-capable account for far less. Not needed for mistakenly banned users who should win their appeals. This appears to be targeted to the elusive "only plagiarized 1 post out of 1000" demographic, of which I've seen perhaps 1 or 2 examples.

Second, even if the "only plagiarized 1 post out of 1000" is an actual problem that we want to solve and we lower the cost to an affordable level, this is a horrible way of doing it. Somebody needs to be the escrow, somebody needs to watch the signatures, somebody needs to enforce the zero-tolerance policy for each previously banned account. It doesn't scale. Yahoo's solution makes far more sense. Don't copy-paste, not even 1 in 1000.

If theymos could implement an actual enforceable signature ban then I'd be ok with it for certain cases. Better yet, make it a max(500, merit_score) merit penalty and if the score is negative after that - permaban stays. That way it can only be used by high-rank accounts and would automatically kill the signature.

I don't see that happening anytime soon though so why don't we focus on solving the shitposting problem rather than helping shitposters.

Except perhaps pure crazy copy and paste pure ico sig spammers  

And who decides all those exceptions?

That is quite true especially who decides who are the crazy copy and paste shit posters.I guess they would not bother to appeal anyway so perhaps no need to add that exception. If they can buy other accounts for cheaper they will do that anyway.

I agree this only really targets people who really are not spammer and are real enthusiasts who have made a mistake in a 1000 and want to retain their accounts here and their ID here. I don't really care that much about others that dont fit into that bracket anyway. Non enthusiasts can just go spam other forums.

However to the scaling...

1. Do we think there will be that many that apply for this ?
2. The work you do now would be paid in theory ( i know you don't care about that) but others might start helping with financial incentive. This also provides incentive to the mods to escrow and the reporters to keep any eye out for sig ban evaders. I think if anything you will get more people looking for bad guys and watching they stay in line if they are paid from the fees.
3. after the get to go back to normal then they will just get caught again and their usernames will be on the thread prior so go to insta perm ban.

[suchmoon]

1. Do we think there will be that many that apply for this ?

That was my first point. There will be no one applying at the 0.5 BTC price. When a new Copper account costs $10-20 you're basically placing a $2000 penalty on honesty - if someone wants to evade a ban they'll just create a new account, and if someone wants to play by the rules then it's way too expensive. For it to make sense it has to cost about as much as Copper membership give or take a few bucks, if you consider sentimental value vs loss of signature vs ban evasion.

2. The work you do now would be paid in theory ( i know you don't care about that) but others might start helping with financial incentive. This also provides incentive to the mods to escrow and the reporters to keep any eye out for sig ban evaders. I think if anything you will get more people looking for bad guys and watching they stay in line if they are paid from the fees.
3. after the get to go back to normal then they will just get caught again and their usernames will be on the thread prior so go to insta perm ban.

It's still a lot of hassle for zero benefit for most people involved. I'd rather spend that time cleaning out 100 other shitposters than babysitting one ex-convict.

[cryptohunter]

1. Do we think there will be that many that apply for this ?

That was my first point. There will be no one applying at the 0.5 BTC price. When a new Copper account costs $10-20 you're basically placing a $2000 penalty on honesty - if someone wants to evade a ban they'll just create a new account, and if someone wants to play by the rules then it's way too expensive. For it to make sense it has to cost about as much as Copper membership give or take a few bucks, if you consider sentimental value vs loss of signature vs ban evasion.

2. The work you do now would be paid in theory ( i know you don't care about that) but others might start helping with financial incentive. This also provides incentive to the mods to escrow and the reporters to keep any eye out for sig ban evaders. I think if anything you will get more people looking for bad guys and watching they stay in line if they are paid from the fees.
3. after the get to go back to normal then they will just get caught again and their usernames will be on the thread prior so go to insta perm ban.

It's still a lot of hassle for zero benefit for most people involved. I'd rather spend that time cleaning out 100 other shitposters than babysitting one ex-convict.

In this system though you would not be doing anything different you would be finding the culprits same as now. Your job in the system does not change you don't need to be the mod or the reporter for people evading sig ban. You still get to go after the other 100 shitsters.  The actual only difference for you is you will get a split of the fees. Even if you do not care about that it may encourage others to do like you are doing now for their bit of the fees.

Then mods who already have to make the decision after you report and also supply the reasons etc and listen to the appeal will just shove the fees in a cold wallet and keep ledger. They will get their fees too. and not have to listen to so many appeals.

Then other people who want to spy out for sig evasion to get some fees or even - maybe  scripts can be made 3rd party keep an eye on them anyway....but anyone watching them gets a split for finding them..

I agree not a huge amount would want go through this appeals process  but i have seen some legends on the appeals offer to pay 0.25 btc for review. People do get attached to their accounts and are certain they are net positive now.

I mean I agree if theymos opens up an option to ban sigs through the forum console that would be even better.

Also those appeals we are seeing here all the time now they will read the appeals process and just think no chance if they are not 100% sure they are net positives.

I mean not many will apply but we are not bothered about saving many only those that are real enthusiasts and it will cut down on appeals also i think. Most are hoping atm we will not find another bunch of their copy and pastes so they try it on claiming yeah 100% i only did it once or whatever but now they wont appeal at all. If it will cost them 0.5btc and no sig for a year then I think they will not be bothering to even appeal. So meta will get drastic drastic reduction in appeals.

I mean another slightly different idea could be

Appeals process is this - want to appeal and say you only made one or less than 1 in 1000 or some ratio - send 1 btc to mod and if no more are found in 3 months time by anyone on the board then money back. If more cases found then money split between original finder and new finder. Of course a smart original finder could find more already....this is now the risk of the copy and paster.

I think that will cut down on people appealing only done it one time or less than 1.1000

perhaps that could be easier.

[suchmoon]

So meta will get drastic drastic reduction in appeals.

I don't think so. Free appeals are still needed to rectify mistakes that occasionally happen. And there will always be opportunists using the process either because they're naive, or fishing for better shitposting strategies, or just trolling.

As for the whole financial incentive side of it... you're right, I don't care. And I'm not sure if I'd trust people who do it for money. We already had a case of someone getting framed and that was without financial gain involved.

[mikeywith]

The "sensible" solution for plagiarism would be this.

a button on every post labeled with" Click me NOW" , takes you to another page where you need to quote the original text, the two texts along with the timestamp run in simple query that checks the integrity of the report by matching the two texts, if it matches , BINGO ! that account gets INSTANT BAN for a limited period of time which equals to his lifetime.

and yes , the button should be available to everybody including newbies so that they can ban higher rank members who copy and paste.

I can tell you this is going to be a 100% plagiarism free forum, as everybody will be watching over everybody else.

and this to me is the ONLY "Sensible" punishment for somebody who steals the words of others and present them as their own.