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Question: Should we have alternatives to permabans for plagarism
Yes - Signature ban - whether permanent or temporary
Yes - Signature ban indefinitely until they've earned x amount of merit
Yes - Pay some sort of fine
No - Nothing should change and permabans remain

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Author Topic: Alternatives to Permabans for plagarism  (Read 19013 times)
Hhampuz
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January 15, 2019, 05:10:26 AM
 #101

Was there ever any update to this @hilariousandco?

I feel like if we were to at least try it out there's a perfect Candidate for it.

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January 24, 2019, 11:44:12 AM
 #102

I ask you to pardon I did not know this rule and wanted to start life from scratch

25. Ban evasion (using or creating accounts while one of your accounts is banned) is not allowed.
~ If you get banned (temporarily or permanently) and create a new account to continue posting / sending PMs, it's considered ban evasion. The only exception is creating a thread in Meta about your ban.
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January 24, 2019, 01:19:59 PM
Merited by Foxpup (3)
 #103

Just this:

Was there ever any update to this @hilariousandco?

I feel like if we were to at least try it out there's a perfect Candidate for it.

Theymos has said there are no concrete rules regarding bans and we can enforce them as we see fit and be more lenient in certain cases, but I'm not going to give certain people free passes because it's not fair and is just going to lead to more issues and hassle when people start complaining that x was unbanned for y by so-and-so so why aren't they. The only way I'll likely start giving people second chances if theymos implements signature bans. That way there's some fairness across the board. You can have your account back but you just can't earn from it. I would be happy to review accounts if this was put into place but I don't think it would be fair to unban certain people and they can resume partaking in signature campaigns whilst others don't even get their accounts back at all. Several people have said they would happily forgo a signature if they can just get their account back so I think it's something we should look at. If that happens and they stick around and show that they're a helpful member of the community and aren't here just for payment then I'd even be up for reviewing whether they can have their signature back at some point as well, but I think if Globals start making up their own rules for who gets unbanned or not it's just opening up a huge can of worms that will only lead to more problems.

As above, I think the policy should stay the same right now because certain mods giving certain people free passes isn't fair and will only lead to more issues and hassle. I guess you can try petition the other Globals/admins as they may have a different opinion, but certain staff showing leniency is just opening up a huge can of worms to me and if you unban one hundreds will start pestering you, but they can obviously feel different. Hopefully signature bans will come into play at some point and I would happily issue them and maybe even consider reinstating the signature if they've proven over time that they're here to contribute. Maybe signature campaigns will be banned in the near future and then maybe we can unban everyone who was ever banned for sig spam and they can choose to contribute or not.

ChiBitCTy along with Roboabhishek were the two users I suggested for a sig ban:

Appeal threads:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3432369.msg35819856#msg35819856
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5079217.msg48408455#msg48408455

I'm not sure I buy either of their excuses (though they are plausible) but I'd be willing to give them a second chance as they were both active and somewhat appreciated members and have vouches from other respected members, but I think some sort of sig ban would be appropriate here given they were both essentially doing it for payment. They both seem to care more about just getting their accounts back and even suggested they're fine with a sig ban so I think this is something we should consider:

For 8 months I’ve watched many opportunities pass by where I feel I could have added value to the forum. My post history is pretty telling of what kind of forum member I believe I mostly was.  My topics are either detailed posts to really try and add value here or for collectibles purposes. 

Hilarious and Theymos…I respect you guys and I fully understand where you’re coming from.  However, you’ve both stated you’d be willing to let a member back who you feel would contribute positively moving forward (likely with stipulations).  Besides my lapse in common sense one day..I’ve done nothing but try and contribute positively here.  Plenty of it being pre-signature days too.  So..put me to the test!! Fuck my signature, hell ban me from it for good.  Give me a chance and I will still be here, still contributing, whether now or a year from now. Easy promise I can make/keep.
 


I don't care about the signature as much as I care about my alias.
If it's possible, then I'll gladly accept it and obviously mistake as this one will never occur from my side ever again.



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January 24, 2019, 06:54:59 PM
 #104

What abot this one "the honeymoon" guy he kinda got the support of suchmoon :

Is this cryptohunter?

Most likely.

Two cases that would probably be deserving of unbans/signature bans are ChiBitCTy & Roboabhishek.

Appeal threads:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3432369.msg35819856#msg35819856
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5079217.msg48408455#msg48408455

If we're doing this we should probably add the honeymoon guy:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5056278.0

The excuse is about as credible at those other two and nobody found any other signs of copypasta yet.

I disagree with unbanning Roboabhishek BTW (having someone create posts for your sig campaign should be ban-worthy in its own right) but I'll admit that other reasonable users vouching for him is a fairly good argument that it's an uncharacteristic lapse in judgement and the person might be capable of learning from it. Let's just please not make this excuse a valid one going forward.



With even the user suggestion some kind of alternative punishment :

~
I will not take part of bounty/signature campain ever (please someone quote this message).
And i will keep in my signature that i got ban for plagiarism (please quote me again!).

~

and :
~
In my thread I welcomed the idea of getting  a permanent ban of signature. If my permapeal was successful.
I don’t mind if it make my account “worthless” without a signature. I don’t intend to sell it.

As most of my posts are in French. I did agree to pay for someone fluent in FR and EN to review my posts and check if I am a spammer and or a shit poster. I agreed to pay this person, or to pay a fine or to give to a charity. 
~


But un-banning accounts is like opening pandora's box

People are already referring to the LoneShark situation each time they are not happy with their ban.

“W̼̟̻͎̞̦̖̭̩͔͇̺͍̩̯̲̔̆̌̏͂͑ͦͧ͛̿̑̈́̎͑̽̍ͭ̏̇͜ill you draW̼̟̻͎̞̦̖̭̩͔͇̺͍̩̯̲̔̆̌̏͂͑ͦͧ͛̿̑̈́̎͑̽̍ͭ̏̇͜ me a sheep?”
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February 05, 2019, 01:56:02 AM
 #105

I continue to be a witness that users with one violation have the same punishment as notorious spammers, and it doesn't seem very fair.
If there has been a plagiarism then ban offenders which have junior ranks and remove signature from senior members (or write that a signature has been disabled because of copy/pasting), and demand from them to earn 100 merit so they can turn on their signature again. If member with a banned signature make one more copy-paste then block him permanently. I think this would be a better option for the development of the forum than is currently the case.

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February 05, 2019, 02:11:26 AM
 #106

I continue to be a witness that users with one violation have the same punishment as notorious spammers, and it doesn't seem very fair.
If there has been a plagiarism then ban offenders which have junior ranks and remove signature from senior members (or write that a signature has been disabled because of copy/pasting), and demand from them to earn 100 merit so they can turn on their signature again. If member with a banned signature make one more copy-paste then block him permanently. I think this would be a better option for the development of the forum than is currently the case.

Hey, this is actually a very good proposal.
Members that truly value their accounts will make the effort to gain those 100 merits and won't mind being deprived of signature for the time needed to achieve it.

“W̼̟̻͎̞̦̖̭̩͔͇̺͍̩̯̲̔̆̌̏͂͑ͦͧ͛̿̑̈́̎͑̽̍ͭ̏̇͜ill you draW̼̟̻͎̞̦̖̭̩͔͇̺͍̩̯̲̔̆̌̏͂͑ͦͧ͛̿̑̈́̎͑̽̍ͭ̏̇͜ me a sheep?”
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February 05, 2019, 07:20:22 AM
Merited by taikuri13 (1)
 #107

~

I want to focus attention that forum obtain much more benefits if guilty members wouldn't be banned at once and they will need to make good posts to get their signatures back.

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February 05, 2019, 06:42:53 PM
 #108

~

I want to focus attention that forum obtain much more benefits if guilty members wouldn't be banned at once and they will need to make good posts to get their signatures back.

I like this idea. Unfortunately 90% of the signature banned account would have been left there hanging, only 10% will care about those accounts. It's not easy to gather 100 merit nowdays, so if someone manages to gather it, that would be really good for the forum itself.

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February 05, 2019, 07:11:31 PM
 #109

I think it should also be noted that if a newbie account created within a few days then it doesn't make sense to ban them for signatures as they wouldn't be allowed to carry signatures in the first place. The probably will be spamming to either rank up or do other shady activities like shilling. The above rules should be only applicable for Full Members & Above since they have taken quite an effort to react there and banning them would be a bit harsh.

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February 10, 2019, 06:55:21 PM
 #110

I continue to think giving a fine would be the best option, but if this is rejected by the administration.....

For lower ranking members, perhaps for junior members and below, there will be no change, they will be permabanned for the first instance.

For higher ranking members, the ban functionality can be modified so that for someone caught plagiarizing, a three day temp ban will start will start once they acknowledge they should not plagiarize, and that future instances of plagiarism will result in a permaban.

The above would prevent people from claiming they didn't know they aren't allowed to plagiarize, and will prevent the promise they will never do it again because they would have already broken that promise. It would also prevent established people from being excluded from the community for a single mistake.

I think in the majority of cases, the above is giving more chances than necessary.

I also think anyone who is banned for plagiarism should have their ban message explicitly say this. Perhaps any mod who has the authority to ban for plagiarism should have the ability to give this type of ban. The ban message could also say the ban is unlikely to get overturned if you actually plagiarized. This should cut down on the appeal threads in meta of people claiming to have no idea why they were banned.   

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February 10, 2019, 07:01:47 PM
Merited by bones261 (4)
 #111

Users caught plagiarizing should have their ability to earn merit permanently removed. While I think they should have to pay a fine, that could be viewed negatively and bring with it unique problems. Another approach along with the inability to receive merit would be a month long ban...

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February 10, 2019, 07:15:20 PM
 #112

Users caught plagiarizing should have their ability to earn merit permanently removed. While I think they should have to pay a fine, that could be viewed negatively and bring with it unique problems. Another approach along with the inability to receive merit would be a month long ban...

This is actually a great idea. My only concern is that we still need a way to penalize someone who has already obtained legendary rank. I'd hate to give a blank check to a legendary account to start employing a copy paste bot to sling their signature all over the place.

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February 10, 2019, 07:17:03 PM
 #113

Users caught plagiarizing should have their ability to earn merit permanently removed. While I think they should have to pay a fine, that could be viewed negatively and bring with it unique problems. Another approach along with the inability to receive merit would be a month long ban...

This is actually a great idea. My only concern is that we still need a way to penalize someone who has already obtained legendary rank. I'd hate to give a blank check to a legendary account to start employing a copy paste bot to sling their signature all over the place.

Ban them for a month and remove their ability to earn merit the first time. Maybe a 2 month ban for the second offense and a permanent ban for the third... I imagine users would be leaving negative trust to these abusers also.

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February 10, 2019, 08:02:56 PM
 #114

Users caught plagiarizing should have their ability to earn merit permanently removed.
Why? Even banned users can still earn Merit. Merit is supposed to encourage good posts, that shouldn't change for anyone.

Thinking out of the box and being plain evil: you could tie posts to Merit by removing all unmerited posts after a few weeks, but this too won't really help.

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February 10, 2019, 08:16:43 PM
 #115

Users caught plagiarizing should have their ability to earn merit permanently removed.
Why? Even banned users can still earn Merit. Merit is supposed to encourage good posts, that shouldn't change for anyone.

Thinking out of the box and being plain evil: you could tie posts to Merit by removing all unmerited posts after a few weeks, but this too won't really help.

Their intent in plagairising is to receive merit, no? Removing their ability to earn merit should remove their incentive to plagiarize.

I don’t see how removing unmerited posts effects plagiarism at all.

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February 10, 2019, 08:23:42 PM
 #116

Their intent in plagairising is to receive merit, no?
Not necessarily. For many the intent is to hit a post quota so they are paid for their signature campaigns. For whatever reason, whatever they write themselves isn't acceptable (it isn't good enough to satisfy their campaign manager, they can't write English comprehensibly, their posts keep getting deleted, they just can't be bothered, etc), and so they plagiarise instead.

I'm sure many of the serial plagiarises have already come to terms with the fact they will never rank up with the current merit system.

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February 10, 2019, 08:45:53 PM
 #117

Their intent in plagairising is to receive merit, no? Removing their ability to earn merit should remove their incentive to plagiarize.

I don’t see how removing unmerited posts effects plagiarism at all.
My assumption was they plagiarize to earn from their signature. Plagiarism happened long before the introduction of Merit. I started my Report plagiarism thread in May 2017.
Removing unmerited posts (which is not a serious idea to pursue) would lower their post count, and force them to only create good posts.

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February 10, 2019, 09:21:29 PM
 #118

Their intent in plagairising is to receive merit, no? Removing their ability to earn merit should remove their incentive to plagiarize.

I don’t see how removing unmerited posts effects plagiarism at all.
My assumption was they plagiarize to earn from their signature. Plagiarism happened long before the introduction of Merit. I started my Report plagiarism thread in May 2017.
Removing unmerited posts (which is not a serious idea to pursue) would lower their post count, and force them to only create good posts.

Quite a few "banned" members have put forward the idea of removing their signature.
No signature, no campaign, no more plagiarism, right ?

Or putting back the signature after a quota of Merit has been earn (100 merit ? 200 merit ?) or not putting it ever, who care ?
if they can't live without a signature, then they just have to leave the place.

Like in real life, you rob a bank, you kill someone, you go to jail and then you get out.
On Bitcointalk, you copy a message once (a single time !) and you are banned from the board, no redemption.

Then, off course if someone is found guilty of doing it one more time, it should be a permaban.


“W̼̟̻͎̞̦̖̭̩͔͇̺͍̩̯̲̔̆̌̏͂͑ͦͧ͛̿̑̈́̎͑̽̍ͭ̏̇͜ill you draW̼̟̻͎̞̦̖̭̩͔͇̺͍̩̯̲̔̆̌̏͂͑ͦͧ͛̿̑̈́̎͑̽̍ͭ̏̇͜ me a sheep?”
CryptopreneurBrainboss
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February 10, 2019, 09:58:59 PM
Last edit: February 11, 2019, 10:52:09 AM by CryptopreneurBrainboss
 #119

For Jnr Member above, I suggest temporary or signatures ban for 14days for first time offenders. If a user gets banned from displaying signature he losses his campaign slot for paid Bitcoin signatures and losses 2weeks stakes for bounty campaigns then the reported plagiarism post should be deleted by mod to prevent repeat of report for that same post and a warning message should be sent to user to delete all formal plagiarism he has done (clean up his account) because any further report of plagiarism for that account will result in permanent ban.

For Newbies i suggest temporary ban for 14days for first time offenders, this will also cause user to loss  2weeks stake in altcoin bounty. Any of this two punishment can be a better alternative to permabans for plagarism for first time offenders.

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cestmoi
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February 10, 2019, 10:01:52 PM
 #120

14 days is not enought.
30 days for 1st timer and 6 months without a signature + need to earn merit (50 / 100 ?)  to have  its signature back (after the 6 months).

(other wise, you just have to "wait" and get all your privileges back)

“W̼̟̻͎̞̦̖̭̩͔͇̺͍̩̯̲̔̆̌̏͂͑ͦͧ͛̿̑̈́̎͑̽̍ͭ̏̇͜ill you draW̼̟̻͎̞̦̖̭̩͔͇̺͍̩̯̲̔̆̌̏͂͑ͦͧ͛̿̑̈́̎͑̽̍ͭ̏̇͜ me a sheep?”
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