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 Author Topic: How to steal Satoshi's stash?  (Read 12529 times)
ZiggyMarley
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 March 14, 2014, 07:35:30 AM

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LostDutchman
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 March 14, 2014, 07:40:25 AM

I know it would take eons but can we define the number of tries that we would need and the time needed to generate each try?

187 gazillion tries and umptey-ump years.

My \$.02.

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Cryddit
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 March 14, 2014, 08:24:27 AM

And I do agree with this as in TODAY, the math is simple, our most powerfull supercomputers calculates in 30sh PFlops that's about 30x10^15 Flops Time in year = 3600x(24x365+6) = 31557600s and 2^256 ~ 1.14x10^77 so it will take to crack it with the usumption that it will require 100Flops per combination = 1.14x10^79/(31557600x30x10^15) =~ 1.20x10^55 years !

BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT! My point is if you consider only classical computing in the last 30 years we've moved from KiloFlops to PentaFlops or 10^15Flops in terms of processing power, it is easy to assume that in the next few decades, we can easly achieve 10^30 / 10^40 (we've already gone past the point of cracking 2^128 or 128bits in a few seconds) and it will reach eventually 10^70+.

The advance of computing hardware is irrelevant relative to the strength of a 256-bit key.  Seriously, irrelevant.  If you rely on hardware improvements, you get to the point where you can flip a bit with one electron volt of energy, and there is NO FURTHER IMPROVEMENT TO BE MADE BEYOND THAT POINT.  And that point, is still not relevant - to the tune of taking billions of years of the total output of the sun.  And no matter how fast the computers get, that isn't relevant either, because they can't run faster than they can get the energy.   We're not talking anymore about circuits and design - we're talking about fundamental limits of physics.

Now, if you're anticipating that we're going to get through it by learning better algorithms, that's essentially saying that the code isn't secure *now*.  Which, in theory anyway, could be.  Right now we don't know any way to attack the problem short of brute force.  In fact, that's pretty much the definition of cryptographic algorithms...  but there are a lot of cryptographic algorithms that turned out not to hold up to the mathematical insights of later generations.  ECDSA could be another of them.

BTW, back in the 80's I was the guy saying "56 bits?  That's maybe enough for most things now, but not for anything worth a million dollars or more, not for national security, and not for more than a couple more years at most..."

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 March 14, 2014, 10:48:40 AM

The example provided was as extreme as I could get
1) assumes 1 key per FLOP (more like 1 key per 80,000 integer ops)
2) assumes moore's law will continue for 40 years (20 if we are lucky)
3) assumes 1 super computer per human on the planet (really)

Even that would be insufficient.  Yet you still stick with a belief that 10^70 is realistic.   There are only 10^50 atoms on the planet.   Even assuming terrahertz scale processor you would need to convert the entire planet into chips and then magically process billions of operations per atom.    What is going to power this?  Where are all the organic life going to go?

Feel free to have the last (delusional) word.  I won't see it because it isn't worth my time anymore.   You can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts.  128 bit keys are beyond brute force with classical computing.  It doesn't matter if it is today, next decade, next millennium, or using a perfect computer and all the matter and energy in our solar system.

He seems to have f*cked off now; strange!

I know this is not thread-related but D&T I fucking love you man. I have no idea how you manage to respond to people like this without losing it and each response seems to contain more damning evidence than the last... Unbelievable.

Anyway thanks, and kuroman no offense but you are the most stupid "educated person" I have encountered for a while on these forums. And welcome to ignore

Guys stupid question here:
You all refer to the amount of energy required.
Can't that be achieved using Nuclear Power?

Just a stupid thought here.
No need to bash me.

 tr ██████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ████████████████████████████████████████████ delize █████████████████████████████████████████▀▀▀▀▀████████████████████░░░░░░░███████████████████░░░░▄██████████████████████░░░░████████████████████░░░░░░░░░░░████████████████▄▄▄░░░░▄▄▄████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████▄▄▄▄███████████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████▀▀░░░░░░░░░▀▀████████████▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▀█████████░░░░░░░░░░░░▄▄░░░░░███████░░░░░░░░▄▄██▀██░░░░░░██████░░░░▄███▀▀▄▄███░░░░░░██████░░░░░░░░▄█████░░░░░░░███████░░░░░░░█▀░▀██░░░░░░█████████▄░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▄████████████▄▄░░░░░░░░░▄▄██████████████████▄▄▄▄▄██████████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████░████████▀░░░░▀▀▄██████████░░▀▀████░░░░░░░░▄██████████▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░███████████▄░░░░░░░░░░░░░░██████████████░░░░░░░░░░░░████████████████▄░░░░░░░░▄█████████████▄▀░░░░░░░░▄▄████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
yenom
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 March 14, 2014, 01:39:19 PM

Can't that be achieved using Nuclear Power?

What do you think the sun is?
S4VV4S
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 March 14, 2014, 02:08:27 PM

Can't that be achieved using Nuclear Power?

What do you think the sun is?

Out of reach maybe?
Nuclear power is within our hands....

 tr ██████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ████████████████████████████████████████████ delize █████████████████████████████████████████▀▀▀▀▀████████████████████░░░░░░░███████████████████░░░░▄██████████████████████░░░░████████████████████░░░░░░░░░░░████████████████▄▄▄░░░░▄▄▄████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████▄▄▄▄███████████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████▀▀░░░░░░░░░▀▀████████████▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▀█████████░░░░░░░░░░░░▄▄░░░░░███████░░░░░░░░▄▄██▀██░░░░░░██████░░░░▄███▀▀▄▄███░░░░░░██████░░░░░░░░▄█████░░░░░░░███████░░░░░░░█▀░▀██░░░░░░█████████▄░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▄████████████▄▄░░░░░░░░░▄▄██████████████████▄▄▄▄▄██████████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████░████████▀░░░░▀▀▄██████████░░▀▀████░░░░░░░░▄██████████▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░███████████▄░░░░░░░░░░░░░░██████████████░░░░░░░░░░░░████████████████▄░░░░░░░░▄█████████████▄▀░░░░░░░░▄▄████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
S4VV4S
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 March 14, 2014, 02:20:26 PM

Can't that be achieved using Nuclear Power?

What do you think the sun is?

Out of reach maybe?
Nuclear power is within our hands....

The sun is within reach.

Apart from photovoltaics and stuff name one person that has control over the sun's energy (for the purpose).

 tr ██████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ███████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ██████████████████████ ████████████████████████████████████████████ delize █████████████████████████████████████████▀▀▀▀▀████████████████████░░░░░░░███████████████████░░░░▄██████████████████████░░░░████████████████████░░░░░░░░░░░████████████████▄▄▄░░░░▄▄▄████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████░░░░███████████████████████▄▄▄▄███████████████████████████████████████ █████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████▀▀░░░░░░░░░▀▀████████████▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▀█████████░░░░░░░░░░░░▄▄░░░░░███████░░░░░░░░▄▄██▀██░░░░░░██████░░░░▄███▀▀▄▄███░░░░░░██████░░░░░░░░▄█████░░░░░░░███████░░░░░░░█▀░▀██░░░░░░█████████▄░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░▄████████████▄▄░░░░░░░░░▄▄██████████████████▄▄▄▄▄██████████████████████████████████████ ██████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████░████████▀░░░░▀▀▄██████████░░▀▀████░░░░░░░░▄██████████▀░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░███████████▄░░░░░░░░░░░░░░██████████████░░░░░░░░░░░░████████████████▄░░░░░░░░▄█████████████▄▀░░░░░░░░▄▄████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
jonald_fyookball
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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

 March 14, 2014, 02:36:24 PM

Sorry, but you are thinking inside the box of todays technology.
Come back after you study fractal computing (using light waves instead of those atoms).
Electromagnetic waves are the answer.

It's true what they say. Bitcointalk has no shortage of dumb fuckwits. Unfortunately, half of them think they're actually smart.

Sorry, open your mind!
Fractal Computing is a groundbreaking technology being worked on in my field of study.
To explain it to you I will start at ground zero. Imagine two mirrors facing each other, reflecting light in a certain pattern depending of the mirrors orientation.
To change this pattern the angle of the mirrors are precisely adjusted to either focus, expand, or direct the waves. The colors can be separated into separate beams expanding the algorithm. Beside the mirrors we have a logic computer that interprets the movements of the waves, and the directional impact of the mirrors. After identifying a pattern It thoroughly controls the mirrors to expand this pattern into larger algorithms. These large algorithms are then cross checked with problems that need to be solved. Eventually solving or breaking the code. Now imagine thousands or millions of these working together simultaneously.

Thanks For Your Time

Interesting although I don't see how that could help brute forcing a strong key as you again run into physical limitations of checking the solution, time required to move the mirrors,etc. feel free to enlighten us though

DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis

 March 14, 2014, 02:58:25 PM

Can't that be achieved using Nuclear Power?

What do you think the sun is?

Out of reach maybe?
Nuclear power is within our hands....

The reason for referencing the sun is that it is a massive fusion power plant on a scale which nothing humans have ever done even comes close.  Do I realistically think someone would turn the sun into a power plant (dyson sphere) for a giant private key breaking machine? No; but if the sun doesn't have enough energy than nothing in our solar system has enough energy.

The largest nuclear power plants are on the order of 1 GW (10^9 watts).  The sun is on the order of 10^26 watts.  Thus it has the output of 10 quadrillion 1GW nuclear power plants. Even the relatively tiny amount of solar energy which strikes the earth is more than 100x the total energy usage of the human race (in all forms).

If a theoretical "solution" requires more than what is available from our star, given our knowledge of physics, it can't be accomplished.  At least not until humans can travel to other larger sources of power (stars).
JakeThePanda
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 March 14, 2014, 03:42:42 PM

Interested!  When does funding start?
TippingPoint
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 March 14, 2014, 04:02:08 PM

The real value of Satoshi's stash is as a fun and entertaining promotional item.  An incentive for people to download a wallet.

Bundle the addresses with Vanitygen, a batch file, a GUI, and a wallet.  Promote it as a free lottery for the unwashed masses.  Publicize the "near misses".  They are not mathematicians.

Encourage them to "prime their wallets" with Bitcoins first.

You have the lemons.  Make the lemonade.
Cryddit
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 March 14, 2014, 04:29:35 PM

Guys stupid question here:
You all refer to the amount of energy required.
Can't that be achieved using Nuclear Power?

[/quote]

Well, yeah, obviously.  We've been talking about the output of the sun, and the sun is just a giant nuclear fusion reactor, after all.

Seriously, though?  Producing that much power via nuclear reaction still involves converting thousands of times the mass of our entire planet into energy.  And the stuff the Earth is made of mostly isn't suitable for either fusion or fission, so we can't even use all of a single earth-mass as nuclear fuel.

The sun can do that (eventually) but we would have a problem doing it here, because we actually want to continue to have a planet to stand on while we do it.

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 March 14, 2014, 05:06:53 PM

Quote
brute forcing a private key being it 128bit or 256bit is impossible today it's stupid to even try, and I've already provided the math for this and we do not disagree on this, my point is, in the next few decades we will eventually reach the point where we will have enough computing power to be able to do so as happened in the past!

No we won't.   You seem to vastly underestimate how large 10^70, 2^128, and 2^160 are.

In 40 years Moore's law has provided roughly 1*10^6 improvement in transistor density and a roughly comparable improvement in cost per unit of computing power and power per unit of computing power.  It is highly likely that Moore's law will not be sustained for another 40 years, Intel may actually slip below that "benchmark" for the first in this decade.  The cost to build smaller and smaller process nodes is increasing exponentially and the time between process nodes (which should be no more than 24 months) is slowly inching upward.  Lets not even get into the fact that there are only 8 maybe 9 process nodes before we get down to the transistors using 3 atoms a piece.

The fact that the size of an atom is fixed, represents a natural boundary. Additional computing power will have to come from something else than increasing density.

However I do not think any of this matters to Bitcoin. Over the next years, Bitcoin will have other things to worry about. If Bitcoin is still around long term and brute forcing becomes a remote possibility, the algo could be changed, a migration to another blockchain is possible and so on.

Anyone on this forum has a much better change of having a stroke or getting hit by a bus, or Goxxed, than private keys being brute forced ...

Truth is the new hatespeech.
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 March 14, 2014, 05:43:55 PM

Have to agree
g4c
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 March 14, 2014, 06:12:49 PM

[insert infographic here]
Yup. Until we colonize the universe.

holy fuck! what a beast!

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

 March 14, 2014, 06:16:36 PM

[insert infographic here]
Yup. Until we colonize the universe.

holy fuck! what a beast!

From what i've read VY Canis Majoris doesnt look that clean.  it has a hazy gaseous edge and no clearly perceptible border of where it actually ends.

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 March 14, 2014, 06:42:58 PM

From what i've read VY Canis Majoris doesnt look that clean.  it has a hazy gaseous edge and no clearly perceptible border of where it actually ends.

artists impression was awesome, but yes difficult to resolve centre.

outburst is impressive i guess at ~3 light years across:

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 March 14, 2014, 07:03:46 PM

There MUST be a more efficient way than brute-force.

Of course a reverse hash function would be the golden ticket.

More attainable might be some function to produce a smaller set to brute-force.

Watch out Satoshi!...

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fran2k
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 March 14, 2014, 07:06:53 PM

If GPU mining becames worthless, miners will switch to mining wallets with some kind of p2p-hashcat, hehehe.
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 March 14, 2014, 07:24:24 PM

There MUST be a more efficient way than brute-force.

Of course a reverse hash function would be the golden ticket.

More attainable might be some function to produce a smaller set to brute-force.

Watch out Satoshi!...

reverse hash is just nonsense, Ill hash a video file for you and give you the hash, then you have to reverse the hash to the original video file, there is no way this can be done.

PMC: 19dNRVPcjsESqo8isdauc1gQ6PbUrAZor9
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