New DT algo - why 100 earned merits?? and not objective metric Activity or Rank?

[cryptohunter]

Straight forward simple question.

Perhaps I have not fully understood the new DT algo.


What does merit have to do with trust?

You must have  member with 100 "earned" merits directly decide to include you in their trust list?

Would that not be better to replace with activity 1500 or above?

How can a subjective score that can be obtained quickly and has nothing to do with trust be a more useful and sensible basis for trust than Rank or Activity - these are objective scores and take a long time to gain and can not be gamed or cycled.

If someone has been here years (to gain 1500 activity) and I can explore their post history to gauge if they are to be trusted or not that is far more useful than some subjective score that can be gained quickly.

merits can be earned quickly, simply for some creating some merit stats and are subjective and can be abused/gamed.

rank and activity - these are objective meaningful metrics - can not be gamed - takes years to attain and more history to explore for trustworthy behaviour. If you have not scammed or engaged in anything untrustworthy in YEARS of being here then you are more trustworthy that someone that came a few months ago and made some good stats metrics, or got given huge merits from their alts.

Other considerations that may or may not be correct

Elder legends and heros may  be more likely to be very wealthy already and need not scam?

By saying earned merits you are NULLING the effort of elder legends who may be due much more than 1000 merits and actually in some cases could be due 100000's of merits by earned merit standards. Also nulling the post quality of legends that never come to meta.

I mean there are many Legends in the alt board that have held millions and millions of dollars in community funds for years that will not be classed as important TRUST WISE as someone who could come here and make some nice merit stats or bought merits.

I suggest removing 100 earned merits and replace with 1500 activity.

Let's have a sensible debate.

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[Findingnemo]

You don't need 100 merits to be a DT member,just someone with 100 earned merit need to add you to their trust list to become eligible for a DT1 member.The merit requirement for the DT member is to show how much they are contributes to the forum.

I suggest removing 100 earned merits and replace with 1500 activity.

1500 activity is also easy requirement for the account farmers so I believe adding X number of positive trusted or untrusted feedback on their profile with valid reference towards the requirement maybe a good option.

[cryptohunter]

You don't need 100 merits to be a DT member,just someone with 100 earned merit need to add you to their trust list to become eligible for a DT1 member.The merit requirement for the DT member is to show how much they are contributes to the forum.

Thanks for post, Yes  I thought it did work as you say.

I do not think 1500 activity would be easy for account farmers that would take YEARS of farming and is unlikely to go unnoticed. If you want put it to 1750 or 2000. You will lose an account like that then you will not be rebuilding it again for another 5 years. I don't think people will ever farm that again. Make it Hero + 1500 activity.

I am simply saying by this logic.

It is about trust -  so

Who do I trust to be having influence over DT1

New member who got a score via a totally subjective and easily gamed system that can be abused.

Old member with lots of history who obtained the score through objectively observable and fair means that can not be gamed or cheated.

When you are talking TRUST you want ZERO subjectivity or as little as possible.

I am opening a debate only to get greater understanding of the reason behind it. Everything else about the new system looks like a big improvement so I am not being critical of the changes over all.

[Coyster]

Being an "elder statesman" in here doesn't guarantee trust,yeah,i get where you're coming from as you're trying to say that like longevity should come ahead of merits in determining trust

Merits to me sounds more reasonable as its a reward for valid contribution to the forum and on its own also may not be a valid tool to determine trust,its not possible for a system to be totally agreeable to all and sundry,as definitely negatives could be forked out from every decision.

So in such cases as this the administrator is left with making a decision,between various options,valid ones, it's best to respect it,if it doesn't work/fails,then a better proposition could be put forward with reasons as to why it may better the standing one

[Kopyleft]

1500 activity is also easy requirement for the account farmers so I believe adding X number of positive trusted or untrusted feedback on their profile with valid reference towards the requirement maybe a good option.

1500 activity is not an easy feat and going by the 14 activity every 2 weeks, it would take close to a year to acquire that activity level.

A user who has made so such contribution on the forum is expected to have achieved a number or merits if they were posting quality content. Otherwise they were probably spamming, and that should not be an indication of their judgement and knowledge of forum matters.

It would also be useful to include that members who explore the forum more and visit various boards have a better understanding than those who stick to a section and maybe ignore some others.

[mdayonliner]

~

Who do you think can make better decision?

or

By the way, theymos is thinking to have 250 merits instead of 100 I guess you missed it.

[cryptohunter]

Being an "elder statesman" in here doesn't guarantee trust,yeah,i get where you're coming from as you're trying to say that like longevity should come ahead of merits in determining trust

Merits to me sounds more reasonable as its a reward for valid contribution to the forum and on its own also may not be a valid tool to determine trust,its not possible for a system to be totally agreeable to all and sundry,as definitely negatives could be forked out from every decision.

So in such cases as this the administrator is left with making a decision,between various options,valid ones, it's best to respect it,if it doesn't work/fails,then a better proposition could be put forward with reasons as to why it may better the standing one

Merit score (especially with no criteria or mandate) can not be linked to trust.

Weight out the positives and negatives of each.

A subjective score is dangerous if you try to use those scores as if they were derived objectively and fairly. Even if merit was somehow distributed by some AI have valued each post against a set of criteria I do not think it has a huge correlation to trust.

Time does.

However let's not focus specifically on that part too much.

@mdayonliner

please relax... it is called a debate.

I am not sure what your examples are supposed to demonstrate.

Explain your meaning.

As far as I know someone with that activity can not exist at newbie rank.

Also to prevent something like that being possible (but highly unlikely)  in 5 years time we can also say 1500 activity and hero

[The Cryptovator]

I suggest removing 100 earned merits and replace with 1500 activity.

It's really doesn't make sense. Activity's are not prove that you are trusted or quality members. I think your intention is exclude new face from merit network (IMO). Honestly you think that earn merit is too easy ? I don't think so. Theymos already change criteria, instead of 100 earned merit  he have required 250 merit. Its really not decent than 1500 activity ?

[mdayonliner]

@mdayonliner

please relax... it is called a debate.

I am relaxed, why do you think so?
I gave you an hypothetical example. After more 4 years from now you may see someone will have 1974 activities but still Newbie.

As far as I know someone with that activity can not exist at newbie rank.

You will need at least 1 merit to have the next rank. You can stay even next ∞ years but if you can not able to manage 1 merit then you are not going to get the next rank.

[cryptohunter]

I suggest removing 100 earned merits and replace with 1500 activity.

It's really doesn't make sense. Activity's are not prove that you are trusted or quality members. I think your intention is exclude new face from merit network (IMO). Honestly you think that earn merit is too easy ? I don't think so. Theymos already change criteria, instead of 100 earned merit  he have required 250 merit. Its really not decent than 1500 activity ?

Intention and motivation are largely irrelevant to a debate.

Why would i wish to keep new members from DT if I could trust them more.

I am simply saying I think you could TRUST someone more if

they have been here a long time and have a long history to examine

more than

someone who could have been here much less time

also you have to realise activity is applied to every person fairly and objectively so it is impossible to game or manipulate that score.

[cryptohunter]

Was one topic not enough? Never mind, who am I kidding

~I'm not going to waste time reading your huge, rambly, low-content posts which you post everywhere.

This is why high merit does not = high value and sometimes is a very negative value.

This is a demonstration of someone trying to stifle free speech and ideas. He could come here and give a sensible answer and debate.
But no just insists this should not be discussed.

Can someone point me to even 1 of loyceV posts that is of HIGH VALUE that is not some stats related stuff he just pulls from the servers.

I mean a post from loyceV that demonstrates original thought and insight of very high value. I mean surely someone with the highest earned merit must have 100's of very insightful and important contributions.

This is not part of my debate here but I will use this point to illustrate that high merit is not correlated at all with high value posts or large contributions to the forum. So ignoring pullling stats and presenting them in graphs etc.

LoyceV apparently has me on ignore so not sure why he is too worried about this thread.

So let's carry on debaiting the OP as I said I am not going to be derailed by personal matters for this.

This is simply a question I am asking because I would like to know the sensible and logical reason behind it and I can not ask theymos directly because he said I write in a rambling low content manner (which could be true) and does not have time to read it at the moment. So I am asking others to debate without getting upset or angry about it.

@maydayonliner

Then perhaps you bring a good point for the distant future. I though this you saying this can happen at this point.

I was talking about now. But for sure we could make it 1500 activity and extend the rank sensibly over time.

I mean this is just a discussion I am not 100% which is the better way of course. We could make a list of pro / cons and see how we go



I will not reply to this thread for a few hours and see what is said by others because I will hopefully avoid dispute with other people who wish to prevent the simple discussion of ideas....

Try to make an objective list merit vs activity +rank.

Then I come back and review and just analyse peoples thoughts. 

[mikeywith]

I mean there are many Legends in the alt board that have held millions and millions of dollars in community funds for years that will not be classed as important TRUST WISE as someone who could come here and make some nice merit stats or bought merits.

Rank should never matter towards trust, i learned this from a personal experience, traded digital goods "bitmain coupons" with a dozen members here, only was scammed once by an almighty "Legendary member"  while i had many smooth deals with lower rank members including newbies.

i am not saying newbies are more trusted than legendary members, i am saying rank is not a solid measurement towards someone's honesty, same goes to activity , many scammers have more than 1500 activities , trust page painted in red , those will still be able to "vote" for DT members, who will do the "reading" of their feedback ?  do you think anyone has the time to cancel voters with negative trust ? i don't think so.

i think getting 100 merit is not something easy , and theymos said he might make a new rule whereby you need 2 members trusting you who has earned 250 merit each.

250 merit vs 1500 activity ! what is more accurate ? to me 250 merit is much more accurate, while this indeed can lead to some centralization, i would prefer centralization to total randomness.

for an improvement maybe a combination of your suggestion along side with the merit requirement will be better.

[qwk]

When you are talking TRUST you want ZERO subjectivity or as little as possible.

Uhm, no
Trust is by its very nature something absolutely subjective.

[darklus123]

When you are talking TRUST you want ZERO subjectivity or as little as possible.

Uhm, no
Trust is by its very nature something absolutely subjective.

Hmm, that is why I can't seem to agree to all who were a part of the DT1 because of this reason.

[cryptohunter]

I mean there are many Legends in the alt board that have held millions and millions of dollars in community funds for years that will not be classed as important TRUST WISE as someone who could come here and make some nice merit stats or bought merits.

Rank should never matter towards trust, i learned this from a personal experience, traded digital goods "bitmain coupons" with a dozen members here, only was scammed once by an almighty "Legendary member"  while i had many smooth deals with lower rank members including newbies.

i am not saying newbies are more trusted than legendary members, i am saying rank is not a solid measurement towards someone's honesty, same goes to activity , many scammers have more than 1500 activities , trust page painted in red , those will still be able to "vote" for DT members, who will do the "reading" of their feedback ?  do you think anyone has the time to cancel voters with negative trust ? i don't think so.

i think getting 100 merit is not something easy , and theymos said he might make a new rule whereby you need 2 members trusting you who has earned 250 merit each.

250 merit vs 1500 activity ! what is more accurate ? to me 250 merit is much more accurate, while this indeed can lead to some centralization, i would prefer centralization to total randomness.

for an improvement maybe a combination of your suggestion along side with the merit requirement will be better.

Mikey - I am sorry to hear that you got scammed as people know I detest scammers.

We can't rely on anecdotal evidence. It has low power or can even be misleading for the larger picture.

Another thing in favour of legends that scam is the punishment side of things. They have more to lose.

Let me say I am not claiming to be correct anyway this is simply a debate.

QWK - can you explain what you mean? why would you not want to reduced subjectivity in a trust system?

How can you disagree you want to reduce subjectivity in a trust system.... I am interested in this.  zero is the target surely or as near to 0 as possible.

Perhaps I am wrong but I can't see how you can not want to decrease subjectivity and variance. I am always willing to change my opinion though so perhaps it is more complex that I think. I await your reply

[bill gator]

Hmm, that is why I can't seem to agree to all who were a part of the DT1 because of this reason.

You're not meant to agree with all who are a part of DT; nor are you meant to agree with all of their trust feedback. There are a lot of contentious issues that float around the community and it would be strange if Default Trust was not representative of the community in this regard.

[qwk]

can you explain what you mean? why would you not want to reduced subjectivity in a trust system?

It's not that I do or do not want subjectivity in any system.
It's just that the word "trust" by and of itself implies subjectivity.
If Alice "trusts" Bob, that's a subjective decision of Alice.

Let me try and apply the criteria of Karl Popper:
Any risky statement that would define the status of trust is per se not falsifiable, and therefore can not be tested in any meaningful, objective way.

If anything, trust (when we talk about trust in the form of the trust system of bct) is inter-subjective, which excludes the possibility of it being objective.

[cryptohunter]

can you explain what you mean? why would you not want to reduced subjectivity in a trust system?

It's not that I do or do not want subjectivity in any system.
It's just that the word "trust" by and of itself implies subjectivity.
If Alice "trusts" Bob, that's a subjective decision of Alice.

Let me try and apply the criteria of Karl Popper:
Any risky statement that would define the status of trust is per se not falsifiable, and therefore can not be tested in any meaningful, objective way.

If anything, trust (when we talk about trust in the form of the trust system of bct) is inter-subjective, which excludes the possibility of it being objective.

So therefore you must agree that in a trust system the goal would be to work to zero subjectivity where it then becomes trustless? If you say it is not possible to reach zero I agree to but to increase variance at any point seems strange if there is no need.

Is this correct?

I agree with you but I was confused by your reply.... should have just said well cryptohunter at zero (which you want) you need no trust it is trustless but yes you want to reduce subjectivity where possible? or are you not saying that anyway?

To me injecting subjectivity in at any point is a move in the wrong direction if working toward reducing the level of trust?

I am interested in your opinion on this but if you can give me examples or analogies also this will be great. English is not my first language so analogies or examples help me greatly. If you have time.


I am actually trying to understand the reasoning. I am going out for the evening later tonight so i may not reply for some time but i will when i return and read what you have said.

[qwk]

So therefore you must agree that in a trust system the goal would be to work to zero subjectivity where it then becomes trustless?

No. A true inter-subjective system won't require any "goal" of lowered subjectivity.
If anything, forcibly trying to work toward such a goal brings with it the risk of peer pressure, which is detrimental to the desired effect of "swarm intelligence" in a true inter-subjective system.

In short: given enough subjective opinions from a preferably random selection of people will result in something which is highly subjective in every single detail, but will be (more or less) indistinguishable from objectivity.

Of course, true randomness is a standard which might be desirable but can never be reached.

https://xkcd.com/1153/

[cryptohunter]

So therefore you must agree that in a trust system the goal would be to work to zero subjectivity where it then becomes trustless?

No. A true inter-subjective system won't require any "goal" of lowered subjectivity.
If anything, forcibly trying to work toward such a goal brings with it the risk of peer pressure, which is detrimental to the desired effect of "swarm intelligence" in a true inter-subjective system.

In short: given enough subjective opinions from a preferably random selection of people will result in something which is highly subjective in every single detail, but will be (more or less) indistinguishable from objectivity.

Of course, true randomness is a standard which might be desirable but can never be reached.

https://xkcd.com/1153/

Oh you seem like a far smarter guy that I initially thought. Okay I can learn something new here perhaps this is what I am after.. i am not familiar with inter subjectivity... I will read this reply and think more about it