What about a non-violent forum protest over the Ponzis?

[farlack]

The thing about ponzis are someone always loses. They're not fair games. As you said they 'died off' pretty fast, the last people to play will 100% lose.

But they know that risk up front, if they want to take that risk who the fuck am I to tell them differently? Besides, doesn't somebody always lose? There's always a loser (usually multiple) in poker, should we stop those as well?

How does everyone know the risk up front? Not everyone does. And poker is a game of skill, not a game of luck to be the first, and hopefully not the last to play the game.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29288271/ns/us_news-life/t/judge-rules-texas-hold-em-game-skill/#.Ux-Fz4W5HYg

[BadBear]

The thing about ponzis are someone always loses. They're not fair games. As you said they 'died off' pretty fast, the last people to play will 100% lose.

But they know that risk up front, if they want to take that risk who the fuck am I to tell them differently? Besides, doesn't somebody always lose? There's always a loser (usually multiple) in poker, should we stop those as well?

How does everyone know the risk up front? Not everyone does.

Then they're idiots for not doing their due diligence and figuring out how the game works before playing, I'm not a babysitter here to save people from their own stupidity.

And poker is a game of skill, not a game of luck to be the first, and hopefully not the last to play the game.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29288271/ns/us_news-life/t/judge-rules-texas-hold-em-game-skill/#.Ux-Fz4W5HYg

Nobody said a thing about it being a game of skill or luck. Your contention was that it isn't fair, because someone always loses, and what's what I was replying to.

[FUR11]

I wasn't talking about that, I was just warning that spamming isn't a good way to bring up problems.

I've stayed out of these discussions until now because I hadn't really decided about it, but as far as I can tell they aren't even really ponzis, people just get mad when they see the word ponzi and dismiss it out of hand. It's just a game like any other. I don't remember people getting this mad about those bitgem or hot potato type games which are exactly the same thing. They also died off pretty fast, much like these will soon enough.

As for posts about gambling services (assuming I believe the "ponzis" to be gambling services) or sites, would you guys rather they all be moved to service discussion? To be honest IDGAF, but I'm not going to apply rules to one specific type of thread/service/game whatever that I don't apply to all. If threads talking about ponzis need to be moved to service discussion, then so does every thread talking about x gambling site that isn't started by the operator.  

If those games are to be moved, what's the criteria that separates them? Ideally it would be more general than just "ponzis go here", cause a board for less than a dozen threads is pretty worthless.

I disagree.  Something like coinbomb is a poniz-like game, because it has very clearly, well defined rules, timers, ect.  It took a ponzi scheme and turned it into a game.

The ponzi's that are littering the gambling forum are NOT games.  They are ponzi schemes.  They are completely without rules, each run under the whim of one random 0-post count account.  When they want to pump up the ponzi with their sockpuppets and pay themselves first...they do.  When they want to run off with the money...they do.

The criteria that separates them is that they are schemes.  Create a new scheme section or sub section.

No matter what you decide to do, thank you for taking your time and looking into this.  

[FUR11]

Here's a different way of looking at it:

Do-dodo-dodo, whats this bitcoin stuff all about, I'm interested in getting into it, oooh gambling, I like that, let's see what my gambling options are with bitcoin, maybe some casinos, or poker, or a fun dice game




...oh.  I guess it's all ponzis and other such investment schemes. 

[farlack]

The thing about ponzis are someone always loses. They're not fair games. As you said they 'died off' pretty fast, the last people to play will 100% lose.

But they know that risk up front, if they want to take that risk who the fuck am I to tell them differently? Besides, doesn't somebody always lose? There's always a loser (usually multiple) in poker, should we stop those as well?

How does everyone know the risk up front? Not everyone does.

Then they're idiots for not doing their due diligence and figuring out how the game works before playing, I'm not a babysitter here to save people from their own stupidity.

And poker is a game of skill, not a game of luck to be the first, and hopefully not the last to play the game.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29288271/ns/us_news-life/t/judge-rules-texas-hold-em-game-skill/#.Ux-Fz4W5HYg

Nobody said a thing about it being a game of skill or luck. Your contention was that it isn't fair, because someone always loses, and what's what I was replying to.

First off, you're not a babysitter, but you're paid to do a job, and your job is to mod the forums and keep users safe. What you're saying is you're to lazy to do your job, but collect your paycheck anyway. That's fair I'm not your boss. Calling someone an idiot for not researching is really mod-like, users should not have to do research on something allowed by the forums, seriously people from Afghanistan have never heard of dinosaurs, how the fuck are they going to know a ponzi is bad?

And as for the someone always loses, its not the same shit, stop making it seem like it is, losing without the chance to win is not the same thing as being bad at cards.

P.S. requiring a ponzi to state the fact that the last to play, will lose, wont take any time out of your busy mod schedule to do.

[BadBear]

First off, you're not a babysitter, but you're paid to do a job, and your job is to mod the forums and keep users safe. What you're saying is you're to lazy to do your job, but collect your paycheck anyway. That's fair I'm not your boss. Calling someone an idiot for not researching is really mod-like, users should not have to do research on something allowed by the forums, seriously people from Afghanistan have never heard of dinosaurs, how the fuck are they going to know a ponzi is bad?

Users shouldn't have to do their research before giving an anonymous dude on the internet their money? Really? I guess this whole argument can stop right here and we'll just agree to disagree.

And as for the someone always loses, its not the same shit, stop making it seem like it is, losing without the chance to win is not the same thing as being bad at cards.

Okay then, how about roulette? Game of chance, and 99% of the people playing are going to lose, hell probably 100%. And how the hell are foreigners going to know what the word roulette means, I mean especially since in your world nobody should have to do any research before participating in these sorts of things.

Here's a different way of looking at it:

Do-dodo-dodo, whats this bitcoin stuff all about, I'm interested in getting into it, oooh gambling, I like that, let's see what my gambling options are with bitcoin, maybe some casinos, or poker, or a fun dice game

https://i.imgur.com/9byslFt.png


...oh.  I guess it's all ponzis and other such investment schemes.  

I agree with most of what you've said. Some of them certainly aren't games and are just schemes, but then again so are some of the gambling sites, but I digress. If we're going to do something there still needs to be specific criteria to distinguish them from the rest in order to keep moderation fair and equal.

[theMiracle]

@BadBear -- I have reported this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=506121.0 (Twelverized 12% Daily Profit For 12 Days On Bitcoins).
This thing claims to be an *investment*, paying 12% daily profit -- absolutely miscategorized in the Gambling section.
I'd like to report it again so that you could move it to whatever-section-12%-daily-profit-deals-belong-in.
Thx.

[FUR11]

I agree with most of what you've said. Some of them certainly aren't games and are just schemes, but then again so are some of the gambling sites, but I digress. If we're going to do something there still needs to be specific criteria to distinguish them from the rest in order to keep moderation fair and equal.

How about removing/relocating anything that doesn't have a "game" component or is not related to something that has a "game" component?  All of these ponzi/pyramids are just "give me some money, you might get some back".  There is no game component, and 'gambling' certainly implies if not out-rightly states that there is a game-based component.  The argument could certainly be made that ponzis and pyramids fit more into the investment forum then the gambling forum, but I believe that they need to be put into their own sub-section, some sort of "investment-gambling-scheme" forum.

[Arcas]

Just demand that Ponzi games stay inside the Games and Rounds subsection.

That's why it's there after all.

[BadBear]

I agree with most of what you've said. Some of them certainly aren't games and are just schemes, but then again so are some of the gambling sites, but I digress. If we're going to do something there still needs to be specific criteria to distinguish them from the rest in order to keep moderation fair and equal.

How about removing/relocating anything that doesn't have a "game" component or is not related to something that has a "game" component?  All of these ponzi/pyramids are just "give me some money, you might get some back".  There is no game component, and 'gambling' certainly implies if not out-rightly states that there is a game-based component.  The argument could certainly be made that ponzis and pyramids fit more into the investment forum then the gambling forum, but I believe that they need to be put into their own sub-section, some sort of "investment-gambling-scheme" forum.

Well that's the one part I disagree with you on, I do think they're a game. Only a ponzi in name. Though I do think they might be a better fit in games and rounds because of that. They literally do run rounds, though not necessarily forum based. It's a pretty specific game that caters to a specific audience, whereas the rest of gambling tends to be casino type places, which covers a large variety of games. Kind of like comparing a shell game to Hannah's Casino, bare basics are the same but they aren't really the same thing. 

[theMiracle]

How does this belong in the gambling forum?

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[FUR11]

It's a pretty specific game that caters to a specific audience, whereas the rest of gambling tends to be casino type places, which covers a large variety of games. Kind of like comparing a shell game to Hannah's Casino, bare basics are the same but they aren't really the same thing. 

And now you've proven to yourself that schemes don't belong in the gambling section.  

[BadBear]

I already moved that thread when it was posted, it belongs in games and rounds, as does the leancy thread. The ponzi games without a website that are forum based belong in games and rounds, this one for example https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=511355.0

As for the others, well the powers that be disagree.

[FUR11]

As for the others, well the powers that be disagree.

Just so that everyone is clear, are you saying that the official stance of bitcointalk is that ponzis that have their own website belong in the "gambling" section?

[theMiracle]

Not sure I understand.  The "Investment opportunity" that pays 12% daily was moved to Games and Rounds?  Not Securities?  

Aren't you trivializing "...English company formed by Mr. Farid Lee. Mr. Lee is an outstanding entrepreneur. He hired and formed a group of eight ( experts, who are responsible for managing investment funds in several investment tunnels"? (the smiley is actually numeral 8 after "eight" spelled out, just like in the Nigerian Prince investments)

This is no game.  Nowhere in the description is the word "game" even mentioned.  

What made you decide to put it in "Games and Rounds"?

[BadBear]

As for the others, well the powers that be disagree.

Just so that everyone is clear, are you saying that the official stance of bitcointalk is that ponzis that have their own website belong in the "gambling" section?

Yes.

Not sure I understand.  The "Investment opportunity" that pays 12% daily was moved to Games and Rounds?  Not Securities?  

Aren't you trivializing "...English company formed by Mr. Farid Lee. Mr. Lee is an outstanding entrepreneur. He hired and formed a group of eight ( experts, who are responsible for managing investment funds in several investment tunnels"? (the smiley is actually numeral 8 after "eight" spelled out, just like in the Nigerian Prince investments)

This is no game.  Nowhere in the description is the word "game" even mentioned.  

What made you decide to put it in "Games and Rounds"?

Because it's referral spam where he's paying people to sign up under him.

[malevolent]

Not sure I understand.  The "Investment opportunity" that pays 12% daily was moved to Games and Rounds?  Not Securities? 

Aren't you trivializing "...English company formed by Mr. Farid Lee. Mr. Lee is an outstanding entrepreneur. He hired and formed a group of eight ( experts, who are responsible for managing investment funds in several investment tunnels"? (the smiley is actually numeral 8 after "eight" spelled out, just like in the Nigerian Prince investments)

This is no game.  Nowhere in the description is the word "game" even mentioned. 

What made you decide to put it in "Games and Rounds"?

Check out the description of the Gambling section:

Gambling and all "investments" that are so risky they might as well be gambling (HYIPs, pyramid schemes, etc.)

[theMiracle]

^Thanks, both mods.  Couldn't find the description you mentioned, but I'm sure it's around.  Would be awesomer if the section was called something more descriptive, like "OMG GET in the fuckin' car it's a scam!!" but this way I still have goals and dreams...

[BadBear]

As for the others, well the powers that be disagree.

Just so that everyone is clear, are you saying that the official stance of bitcointalk is that ponzis that have their own website belong in the "gambling" section?

Also to clarify for anyone else that may be thinking the same thing you did, I am not the powers that be referenced there, I was talking with the admin at the time. If I were the powers that be, I certainly wouldn't call myself the powers that be, and I don't talk about myself in the third person either, that takes a special kind of asshole. I might be an asshole but I'm not that kind of asshole.

Also the answer isn't written in stone, he may still be swayed by reasonable arguments, but I don't really have a horse in this race, the extent of my gambling is hosting poker night at my place once in a while.

[Light]

Also the answer isn't written in stone, he may still be swayed by reasonable arguments, but I don't really have a horse in this race, the extent of my gambling is hosting poker night at my place once in a while.

I'm still hoping that theymos changes his mind. I don't mind having ponzis on the site, I just dislike them in the gambling sub. Is the creation of a new sub for ponzis an option even on the cards?